Links to background information and FAQs on Ayodhya
Quote:[url="http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/ayodhya.html"]http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/ayodhya.html[/url]
BRIEF HISTORY - 1528 THRU 1934 :
RECENT HISTORY - 1934 THRU 1992
[url="http://www.hvk.org/specialrepo/bjpwp/ch1.html"]http://www.hvk.org/specialrepo/bjpwp/ch1.html[/url]
Arnold Toynbee's view of Ayodhya
[url="http://www.hvk.org/specialrepo/bjpwp/"]http://www.hvk.org/specialrepo/bjpwp/[/url]
BJP's white paper on Ayodhya
[url="http://www.ayodhya.com/ayotemplet.jsp?sno=4"]http://www.ayodhya.com/ayotemplet.jsp?sno=4[/url]
Some FAQs on Ayodhya
[url="http://www.bharatvani.org/books/ayodhya/intro.htm"]http://www.bharatvani.org/books/ayodhya/intro.htm[/url]
Ayodhya and After by Koenraad Elst(online book)
[url="http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20030602&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=1"]Secrets Of The Shrine[/url]Â
Sandipan Deb gets into the heavily-guarded excavation site at Ayodhya and finds clues to a confusing past Updates
SANDIPAN DEB
The following article refers to the dastardly role that the Communists played in the Ayodhya drama.
[url="http://www.wac.uct.ac.za/croatia/gupta.htm"]ROLE OF INTELLECTUALS AND ITS CONSEQUENCES ON AYODHYA ISSUE[/url]
S.P. Gupta Chairman. Indian Archaeological Society.
In view of the mass negative psy ops this is generating, i think a thread is necessary to discuss and give us continual updates and on the scenario and build a ready volume of articles to refer to.
Today Advaniji was aquitted from the Babri mosque demolition case and saying thus, some foreign media and the Kaangress have launched into yet another attempt to malign the BJP and break the case to rebuild the Ram mandir. A few reports as listed.
1) Advani cleared over Ayodhya
[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3122466.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3122466.stm[/url]
Mosque demolition: Is justice being done ?
[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3123096.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3123096.stm[/url]
Profile: Lal Krishna Advani
[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2075803.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2075803.stm[/url]
What now for LK Advani?
[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3123578.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3123578.stm[/url]
Why is Advani let off the hook, asks Oppn?
[url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=190973"]http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll...how?msid=190973[/url]
Babri demolition case chronology :
[url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=178878"]http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll...how?msid=178878[/url]
ASI report proves BJP point: Advani
[url="http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/sep/10ayo.htm"]http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/sep/10ayo.htm[/url]
Proof of temple found at Ayodhya: ASI report
[url="http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/aug/25ayo1.htm"]http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/aug/25ayo1.htm[/url]
2)[url="http://www.ayodhya.com/"]http://www.ayodhya.com/[/url]
3) Archeological Society of India Says Temple Existed at Ramjanmabhoomi
Site
[url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/"]http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll...ll/html/uncomp/[/url] articleshow?msid=145797
LUCKNOW, INDIA, August 25, 2003: The Archaeological Survey of India
(ASI) said a temple-like "massive structure" existed beneath the
disputed site in Ayodhya in its 574-page report. The ASI report,
submitted on August 22, was opened by the three-member Full Bench,
comprising Justice SR Alam, Justice Khem Karan and Justice Bhanwar
Singh on Monday. The bench has given six-week time to contesting
parties for filing their objections on the sensational revelations made
by the ASI in its two-volume report. "Viewing in totality and taking
into account the archaeological evidence of a massive structure just
below the disputed structure and evidence of continuity in structural
phases from the tenth century onwards up to the construction of the
disputed structure along with yield of stone and decorated bricks as
well mutilated sculpture of divine couple...., fifty pillar bases in
association of the huge structure, are indicative of remains which are
distinctive features found associated with the temples of north India,"
concluded the ASI in its report. The ASI team, led by Hari Manjhi and B
R Mani, had excavated the disputed site for nearly five months between
March 12 and August 7 2003 on the March 5 order of the High Court. In
its report on the famous excavations, the ASI has dwelt at length the
period from circa 1000 BCE to 300 BCE and from Sunga (first century
BCE) to Kushan, Gupta, Post-Gupta up to Medieval Sultanate level (12-16
century CE). The ASI report mentions a huge structure (11-12th century)
on which a massive structure, having a huge pillared hall (or two
halls), with at least three structural phases and three successive
floors attached with it was constructed later on. "There is sufficient
proof of existence of a massive and monumental structure having a
minimum of 50 x 30 meter in north-south and east-west directions
respectively just below the disputed structure," states the report.
To prove its point, the report says that during the course of digging,
nearly 50 pillar bases with brickbat foundation, below calcrete blocks
topped by sandstones were found. It also suggests that the center of
the central chamber of the disputed structure falls just over the
central point of the length of the massive wall of the preceding period
which could not be excavated due to presence of Ram Lala at the spot in
the makeshift structure. Significantly, the ASI report did not give any
weightage to the glazed wares, graves and skeletons of animals and
human beings found during the excavations. Rather it suggests that the
glazed tiles were used in the construction of original disputed
structure. Similarly, the celadon and porcelain shards and animal
bones, skeletons recovered from trenches in northern and southern areas
belong to late and post-Mughal period, it adds. In drafting its report,
the ASI has also given importance to the carbon dating to ascertain the
period of soil and artefacts found during digging. About the habitation
around the disputed ground, the ASI report observed that "below the
disputed site remained a place for public use for a long time till the
Mughal period when the disputed structure was built which was confined
to a limited area and population settled around it as evidenced by the
increase in contemporary archaeological material, including pottery."
The ASI report has come as a rude shock to the Sunni Central Wakf Board
and other Muslim organisations. "It is baseless, misinterpreted, based
on wrong facts and drafted under intense political pressure," reacted
Jafrayab Jilani, counsel for SCWB while announcing that they will
challenge the report.
4) What we need to know about Ayodhya
Author: NS Rajaram
Publication: Vijay Times
Date: March 12, 2003
[url="http://www.hvk.org/articles/0403/188.html"]http://www.hvk.org/articles/0403/188.html[/url]
5) Ayodhya
Layers of truth
ASI report, hinting at a Siva temple beneath
the Masjid, could debunk Janmabhoomi claim
[url="http://www.the-week.com/23sep07/events1.htm"]http://www.the-week.com/23sep07/events1.htm[/url]
Now this is a new way to thrawt political stability in India.
BBC and psecs are already hitting at the next election
and asking leading questions
BBC is under the control of some think tank which is doing the
news reports according to the events/
What now for LK Advani?
By Soutik Biswas
BBC News Online India analyst
He's a prominent hardliner and India's second most powerful politician - and Indian Deputy Prime Minister Lal Krishna Advani must be breathing a little easier now.
A court ruling on Friday that Mr Advani will not face charges relating to the 1992 destruction of a mosque in Ayodhya will help him improve his position in the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP)
It will also make him a tad more acceptable to the allies supporting the government.
The Karachi-born, 74-year-politician, who is a Bollywood buff and reads Alvin Toffler in his free time, is not exactly popular with the disparate, regional parties that form part of the BJP-led Indian Government.
Advani - can he ever gain Muslim support?
They have always suspected Mr Advani of behaving more like a "party person", trying to push political agendas like the building of a temple at the site where the Babri mosque in Ayodhya was razed down by a mob in his presence.
"He is seen as a tough cookie. At least, he has the image of being one. So the allies don't feel very cosy with him," says social psychologist Dr Ashish Nandy.
The allies are more comfortable with 77-year-old Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee's grandfatherly, patient and consensual style of politics and administration.
The Indian media often reports of fissures between the consensual PM and his hardliner DPM, but many political analysts reckon that this is part of a carefully cultivated spin to keep both the doves and the hawks in the party and government happy.
'Position reinforced'
Mr Advani must be relieved now.
"The court decision will definitely reinforce Mr Advani's position as the number two in the party and the government and improve his chemistry with the allies," political analyst Dr Mahesh Rangarajan told BBC Online.
Mr Advani has been trying his best to shed his image of a hardliner to make him more acceptable to Indian people and the allies whose support he will need to make him a successor to Mr Vajpayee.
Even the Ayodhya movement seems to have passed a peak - but BJP cannot put it behind and disown the cause publicly
Mahesh Rangarajan
political analyst
Quote:But the let-off in this case is not going to help his ambitions to become India's next prime minister in the eventuality of BJP and its allies returning to power next year.
One reason is that there is still another case involving Mr Advani in the demolition of Babri mosque in India's Supreme Court.
The other - and more important reason - is that Mr Advani can never possibly become acceptable as a prime minister to allies who have substantial Muslim voters in their constituencies.
"Muslim voters matter in some 110 constituencies in India. They have not forgotten the riots in the country after Mr Advani's rathyatra (motorised chariot) journey in the early 1990's to whip up support for a temple at Ayodhya," says Dr Nandy.
Potent mixture
That is really the biggest problem facing Mr Advani -and the BJP - as history catches up with the man and his party.
The potent mixture of politics and religion - brewed in a large part by Mr Advani himself - that catapulted the BJP to power does not really work today in a country which is hungry for economic reforms and change.
Advani played a key role in promoting Hindu activism
"Even the Ayodhya movement seems to have passed a peak. The public response is waning. But BJP cannot put it behind and disown the cause publicly," says Dr Rangarajan.
So even if Mr Advani did not incite the mob to bring down the mosque in Ayodhya, his role as the chief architect in the movement is an irrefutable part of history.
"You can say he mobilised people to such a point that some of them went to Ayodhya and brought down the mosque," says political columnist Prem Shankar Jha.
"So he created the opportunity for this mass movement and mobilisation." And that will continue to remain the agonising dilemma of Mr Advani.
BJP urges Muslims to hand over disputed site to Hindus
[url="http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=24857"]http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=24857[/url]
The Ayodhya Dispute
[url="http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/611_0,001300020001.htm"]http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/611_0,0...01300020001.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=EDITS&file_name=edit3%2Etxt&counter_img=3"]Ayodhya: The dance of Shiva - Sandhya Jain[/url]
Recently we are going through a psyops operation regarding the hindus dont want the RJB anymore. I dont know why. But recently I have seen atleast a couple of articles saying something like this.. One such is this
[url="http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=317843"]Advani's Ayodhya...that never was [/url]
Rajesh, Abhigyan Prakash's article is full of wishful thinking. Notice lack of any direct quotes from LKA.
Here's a link to what Shri Advani really feels about the Ram temple
Quote:"I do not see any reason why the temple should not be built there," he said after unveiling an oil portrait of veteran freedom fighter Sardar Sinh Rana at Veraval near here.
"Some people say a court verdict should be awaited, some say there is need for legislation but I believe the best solution is construction of the Ram temple involving all communities," Advani said, adding this would be a permanent solution.
He added that construction of the temple would help remove tension in the country, including those among various communities and would strengthen national integration.
"All communities should together decide that people believe that the site at Ayodhya is the birth place of Lord Ram and that a grand temple be constructed there with the help of everyone," he said.
[url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?msid=201646"]http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll...how?msid=201646[/url]
I agree Vijay. There is a lot of psy-ops going on w.r.t Ayodhya and the building of RJB.
BTW, welcome to India forum, a forum where you can discuss topics such as these without Big Brother breathing down your neck.
India English media/Commie/Cong-I objective is to make Hindu feel they are wrong in pursuing Ram Janam Bhumi, but infact it is reverse now. More they write nonsense more it is motivating people.
Thanks for the welcome Kaushal garu. <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' /> I was out of the country for last month, so my internet surfing was severely curtailed.
But I was so glad to see this site up that I registered even while I was in Romania.
My main beefs with my previous haunt were excessive, paranoid and self-defeating "moderation" and a lack of decent archival of some most intelligent discussions on the web. I hope IndiaForum will be better in these areas. At least, I like the moderators. <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' />
Regarding Ayodhya psyops, I would like to see further excavation of the whole site in the context of archeology rather than building a new temple. After the excavation, for the sake of enlightenment and education, the old temple can be restored to its former glory so that the Indians may learn more from their past.
Mudy, I am one of those "born again" Hindus :ind thanks to the unrelenting negative stereotyping of Hindus by our SLIME ("self-loathing indian mentalities" copyright M. Vidyasagar, [url="http://atcweb.atc.tcs.co.in/~sagar/slime.html)"]http://atcweb.atc.tcs.co.in/~sagar/slime.html)[/url].
Vijay, Your point regarding archival is well taken. For now the problem is not acute since the pace of postings is relatively slow. But if and when the pace picks up we need a well designed (read only) archival system. There is a thread for suggestions elsewhere in the forum. pl. do not hesitate to post your wish list and suggestions for the forum. I am sure the moderators will give it due consideration.
During some work, I came across the reference to a book of his and began to look for it. It was a long, discursive book, I learnt, which began with descriptions of geography, flora and fauna, languages, people and regions of India. These were written for Arabic speaking people, the book having been written in Arabic.
In 1972, I learnt, the Nadwatul-Ulama had the book translated into Urdu and published the most important chapters of the book under the title Hindustan Islami Ahad Mein ("Hindustan Under Islamic Rule"). Ali Mian, I was told, had himself written the foreword in which he had commended the book most highly. The book as published had left out description of geography etc, on the premise that facts about these are well known to Indian readers.
A Sudden Reluctance
A curious fact hit me in the face. Many of the persons who one would have normally expected to be knowledgeable about such publications were suddenly reluctant to recall this book. I was told, in fact, that copies of the book had been removed, for instance from the Aligarh Muslim University Library. Some even suggested that a determined effort had been made three or four years ago to get back each and every copy of this book.
Fortunately the suggestion turned out to be untrue. While some of the libraries one would normally expect to have the book -- the Jamia Millia Islamia in Delhi; the famous libraries in Hyderabad -- those of the Dairutual Maarifal-Osmania, of the Salar Jung Museum, of the Nizam's Trust, of the Osmania University, the Kutubkhana-I-Saidiya -- did not have it, others did. Among the latter were the Nadwa's library itself, the justly famous Khuda Baksh Library in Patna, that of the Institute of Islamic Studies in Delhi.
The fact that the book was available in all these libraries came as a great reassurance. I felt that if reactionaries and propagandists have become so well organized that they can secure disappearance from every library of a book they have come not to like, we are in deep trouble. Clearly they were not that respectful. The fact that, contrary to what I had been told, the book was available also taught me another reassuring thing: factional fights among Muslim fundamentalists are as sharp and intense as are the factional fights among fundamentalists of other hues. For the suggestion of there being something sinister in the inaccessibility of the book had come to me from responsible Muslim quarters.
'This valuable gift, this historical testament'
The book is the publication number 66 of the Majlis Tehqiqat wa Nashriat Islam, the publication house of the Nadwatul-Ulama, Lucknow. The Arabic version was published in 1972 in Hyderabad, the Urdu version in 1973 in Lucknow. An English version was published in 1977. I will use the Urdu version as the illustration. Maulana Abdul-Hasan Ali Nadwi, that is Ali Mian himself contributes the foreword. It is an eloquent, almost lyrical foreword.
Islam has imbued its followers with the quest for truth, with patriotism, he writes. Their nature, their culture has made Muslims the writers of true history, he writes. Muslims had but to reach a country, he writes, and its fortunes lit up and it awakened from the slumber of hundreds an thousands of years. The country thereby ascended from darkness to light, he writes, from oblivion and obscurity to the pinnacle of name and fame. Leaving its parochial ambit, he writes, it joined the family of man, it joined the wide and vast creation of God. And the luminescence of Islam, he writes, transformed its hidden treasure into the light of eyes. It did not suck away the wealth of the country, he writes, and vomit it elsewhere as western powers did. On the contrary, it brought sophistication, culture, beneficent administration, peace, tranquility to the country. It raised the country from the age of savagery to the age of progress, he writes, from infantilism to adulthood. It transformed its barren lands into swaying fields, he writes, its wild shrubs into fruit-laden trees of such munificence that the residents could not even have dreamt of them.
And so on.
He then recalls that the vast learning and prodigious exertions of Maulana Abdul Hai, his 8-volume work on 4500 Muslims who served the cause of Islam in India, his directory of Islamic scholars. He recalls how after completing these books the Maulana turned to subjects which had till then remained obscure, how in these labors the Maulana was like the proverbial bee collecting honey from varied flowers. He recounts the wide range of the Mualana's scholarship. He recounts how the latter collected rare data, how a person like him accomplished single-handed what entire academics are unable these days to do.
He recounts the structure of the present book. He recalls how it lay neglected for long, how, even as the work of retranscribing a moth-eaten manuscript was going on, a complete manuscript was discovered in Azamgarh, how in 1933 the grace of Providence saved it from destruction and obscurity.
He writes that the book brings into bold relief those hallmarks of Islamic rule which have been unjustly and untruthfully dealt with by western and Indian historians, which in fact many Muslim historians and scholars in universities and academics too have treated with neglect and lack of appreciation.
Recalling how Maulana Abdul Hai had to study thousands of pages on a subject, Ali Mian says that only he who has himself worked on the subject can appreciate the effort that has gone into the study. You will get in a single chapter of this book, he tells the reader, the essence which you cannot obtain by reading scores of books. This is the result, he writes, of the fact that the author labored only for the pleasure of the God, for the service of the learning, and the fulfillment of his own soul. Such authors expected no rewards, no applause, he tells us. Work has their entire satisfaction. That is how they were able to put in such Herculean labors, to spend their entire life on one subject. We are immensely pleased, he concludes, to present this valuable gift and historical testament to our countrymen and hope that Allah will accept this act of service and scholars will also receive it with respect and approbation.
[url="http://shourie.bharatvani.org/articles/19890205.htm"]http://shourie.bharatvani.org/articles/19890205.htm[/url]
Here we go again ..
[url="http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=317887"]Looking Beyond Ayodhya[/url]
Rajdeep Sardesai is a lost cause. Like Darth Vader he has gone over to the dark (or is it dork) side a long time ago, and he wouldnt be able to recognize Dharma even if it were staring him in the face. His notion that there exists only a political motivation for the support of RJB is silly. The reason Ayodhya resonated among such a large proportion of the Hindu public is that it is a core issue of civilizational identity. After all what benefits would expats like me derive, if the temple were built, considering that most of us would probably not settle in India ever again. The notion that an invader can come in and willy nilly destroy temples at his whim and fancy is loathsome to most Indians, who have said enough is enough and have said to themselves it will not happen again.
Here is an interview with Sir Vidiadhar (Naipaul) where he refutes the sentiments of the Dork side. The interviewer is Dileep Padgaonkar another one who has been lost to the Dork side
"An area of awakening"
[url="http://www.ayodhya.com/ayotemplet.jsp?sno=35&E35=1"]Interview by Dilip Padgaonkar[/url]
The Times of India,
18 July 1993.
Padgaonkar (P): The collapse of the Soviet Union and the subsequent rise of Islamic nations in Central Asia, the Salman Rushdie affair, similar harassment by fundamentalists of liberal Muslim intellectuals in India: all these factors taken together persuaded some forces to argue that a divided Hindu society cannot counteract Islamic fundamentalism.
Naipaul (N): I donât see it quite in that way. The things you mentioned are quite superficial. What is happening in India is a new, historical awakening. Gandhi used religion in a way as to marshal people for the independence cause People who entered the independence movement did it because they felt they would earn individual merit.
Today, it seems to me that Indians are becoming alive to their history. Romila Thaparâs book on Indian history is a Marxist attitude to history, which in substance says: there is a higher truth behind the invasions, feudalism and all that. The correct truth is the way the invaders looked at their actions. They were conquering, they were subjugating. And they were in a country where people never understood this.
Only now are the people beginning to understand that there has been a great vandalizing of India. Because of the nature of the conquest and the nature of Hindu society such understanding had eluded Indians before.What is happening in India is a mighty creative process. Indian intellectuals, who want to be secure in their liberal beliefs, may not understand what is going on, especially if these intellectuals happen to be in the United States. But every other Indian knows precisely what is happening: deep down he knows that a larger response is emerging even if at times this response appears in his eyes to be threatening.
However, we are aware of one of the more cynical forms of liberalism: it admits that one fundamentalism is all right in the world. This is the fundamentalism they are really frightened of: Islamic fundamentalism. Its source is Arab money. It is not intellectually to be taken seriously etc. I donât see the Hindu reaction purely in terms of one fundamentalism pitted against another. The reaction is a much larger responseâ¦. Mohammedan fundamentalism is essentially negative, a protection against a world it desperately wishes to join. It is a last ditch fight against the world.
But the sense of history that the Hindus are now developing is a new thing. Some Indians speak about a synthetic culture: this is what a defeated people always speak about. The synthesis may be culturally true. But to stress it could also be a form of response to intense persecution. these are very prescient and perceptive remarks. Naipaul's command of language coupled with his clarity of thought makes him a formidable figure of the 20th century, one whose reasoned and logical approach to events should be taken very seriously.
(P): How did you react to the Ayodhya incident?
(N): Not as badly, as the others did, I am afraid. The people who say that there was no temple there are missing the point. Babar, you must understand, had contempt for the country (that) he had conquered. And his building of that mosque was an act of contempt for the country. In Turkey, they turned the Church of Santa Sophia into a mosque. In Nicosia churches were converted into mosques too. The Spaniards spent many centuries re-conquering their land from Muslim invaders. So these things have happened before and elsewhere.
In Ayodhya the construction of a mosque on a spot regarded as sacred by the conquered population was meant as an insult. It was meant as an insult to an ancient idea, the idea of Rama, which was two or three thousand years old.
(P): The people who climbed on top of these domes and broke them were not bearded people wearing saffron robes and with ash on their foreheads. They were young people clad in jeans and tee shirts.
(N): One needs to understand the passion that took them on top of the domes. The jeans and the tee shirts are superficial. The passion alone is real. You canât dismiss it. You have to try to harness it.
Hitherto in India the thinking has come from the top. I spoke earlier about the state of the country: destitute, trampled upon, crushed. You then had the Bengali renaissance, the thinkers of the nineteenth century. But all this came from the top. What is happening now is different. The movement is now from below.
(P): My colleague, the cartoonist, Mr. R K Laxman, and I recently traveled thousands of miles in Maharashtra. In many places we found that noses and breasts had been chopped off from the statues of female deities. Quite evidently this was a sign of conquest. The Hindutva forces point to this too to stir up emotions. The problem is how do you prevent these stirred-up emotions from spilling over and creating fresh tensions?
(N): I understand. But it is not enough to abuse them or to use that fashionable word from Europe: fascism. There is a big, historical development going on in India. Wise men should understand it and ensure that it does not remain in the hands of fanatics. Rather they should use it for the intellectual transformation of India.
By Rahul Singh,
The Times of India, 23 January 1998
®: You gave an interview to the Times of India, which was interpreted by the BJP as supporting them in the destruction (of the Babri structure). Do you think you were misunderstood?
(N): I can see how what I said then could be misinterpreted. I was talking about history; I was talking about a historical process that had to come. I think India has lived with one major extended event that began about AD 1000 the Muslim invasion. It meant the cracking open and partial wrecking of what was a complete cultural, religious world until that invasion. I donât think the people of India have been able to come to terms with that wrecking. I donât think they understand what really happened. Itâs too painful.
And I think this BJP movement and that Masjid business is part of a new sense of history, a new idea of what happened. It might be misguided, it might be wrong to misuse it politically, but I think it is part of a historical process. And to simply abuse it as Fascist is to fail to understand why it finds an answer in so many hearts in India.
"The truth governs writing"
Interview by Sadanand Menon
The Hindu,
5 July 1998.
(M): You have given some signals during your visit here this time about your - it may be a wrong word - your "happiness" with the emergence and consolidation of some kind of parasitic Hindu political order here. How do you sustain such a thesis?
(N): No. I have not done that actually. I have talked about history. And I have talked about this movement. I have not gone on to say I would like Hindu religious rule here. Ali that I have said is that Islam is here in a big way. There is a reason for that and we cannot hide from what the reasons were. The great invasions spread very far south, spreading to, you know, even to Mysore.
I think when you see so many Hindu temples of the tenth century or earlier time disfigured, defaced, you know that they were not just defaced for fun: that something terrible happened. I feel that the civilization of that closed world was mortally wounded by those invasions. And I would like people, as it were, to be more reverential towards the past, to try to understand it; to preserve it; instead of living in its ruins. The Old World is destroyed. That has to be understood. The ancient Hindu India was destroyed.
(M): Many things changed and many things overlapped in Indian history due to many diverse interventions. But do such processes over time justify the line of "historic revenge" with retrospective effect? Does it make that inevitable? What do you see unfolding before your eyes here today?
(N): No. I do not think so. It need not happen. If people just acknowledged history, certain deep emotions of shame and defeat would not be driven underground and would not find this rather nasty and violent expression. As people become more secure in India, as middle and lower middleclass begins to grow; they will feel emotion more and more. And it is in these people that deep things are stirred by what was, clearly, a very bad defeat. The guides who take people around the temples of Belur and Halebid are talking about this all the time.
I do not think they were talking about it like that when I was there last, which is about 20 something years ago. So new people come up and they begin to look at their world and from being great acceptors, they have become questioners. And I think we should simply try to understand his passion. It is not an, ignoble passion at all. It is men trying to understand themselves. Do not dismiss them. Treat them seriously. Talk to them.
(M): But donât you think this tendency is only going to increase - this tendency to whimsically and freely interpret religion or history at the street level?
(N): I think it will keep on increasing as long as you keep on saying it is wicked and that they are wicked people. And if we wish to draw the battle-line, then of course, you get to battle. If you try to understand what they are saying, things will calm down.
[quote name='Kaushal' date='Sep 26 2003, 08:49 AM'] (N): Not as badly, as the others did, I am afraid. The people who say that there was no temple there are missing the point. Babar, you must understand, had contempt for the country (that) he had conquered. And his building of that mosque was an act of contempt for the country. In Turkey, they turned the Church of Santa Sophia into a mosque. In Nicosia churches were converted into mosques too. The Spaniards spent many centuries re-conquering their land from Muslim invaders. So these things have happened before and elsewhere. [/quote]
Isn't Rajdeep Sardesai son of Dilip Sardesai - the mentor of Sunny Gavaskar during his first series in WI? Sad, truly sad.
I wish I can find a softcopy of conquest of Kaba. Islamic scholars and historicians are pretty clear on how Kaba in KSA was "rebuilt" by conquering hordes.
Back to our sub-continent:
[url="http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/temple1.html"]Destruction Of Hindu Temples By Muslims - Part I[/url]
[url="http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/temple2.html"]Destruction Of Hindu Temples By Muslims - Part II[/url]
[url="http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/temple3.html"]Destruction Of Hindu Temples By Muslims - Part III[/url]
[url="http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/temple4.html"]The Destruction Of Hindu Temples By Muslims - Part IV (The Epigraphic Evidence)[/url]
Muqtar Abbas Naqvi is a wonderful example of a role model for IM. Not only is he sophisticated and articulate but he is a nationalist to the core (somebody who would be called a jingo in some quarters). He has been derisively called a 'sarkari muslim by at least one IM in another forum. It appears if you are a nationalist you are automatically suspect as a 'sarkari muslim'.It is the same situation with the President.He has been denied his membership in the Muslim faith by Rafeeq Zakaria , among the reasons - get this - he is a vegetarian.IOW he is well on his way to being dubbed a Kaffir Here are Sri Naqvi's answers in an internet chat room;
[url="http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=32374"]FIRING LINE/ MUKHTAR ABBAS NAQVI[/url]
âCong attitude on Godhra angered majority communityâ
What according to you would be an ideal solution to the Ayodhya issue? Talekana Krishnadas
Quote:We are of the view that the best course is through negotiations between both the communities or through a court verdict. Any delay in not resolving this long-pending dispute is not in the interest of the country.
After the ASI report, the claims of the majority community for building the Ram temple has gained weightage. Under the new evidence and circumstances arising out of the ASI report, it is desirable that related parties should leave aside their prejudices and narrow political gains and come with an open mind for negotiations, which can will help in resolving the dispute in one hour.
Another Sir Syed is needed to convince Indian Muslims that politics is not going to benefit them at all, that politics will only divert their attention from the real educational and economic problems... Prof Mukhtar Ali Naqvi
Yes, I do agree with you that the political parties, especially those parties which are called the champions of secularism, are exploiting the socio-economic and educational backwardness of the Indian Muslims in a well-planned manner to suit their political agenda. Most of the political parties are not interested in resolving the real problems of the Indian Muslims because of their narrow political gains.
The result has been that after Independence if one looks at the ratio of the Muslims in the administration, police, government jobs and representation to the constitutional system of democracy like Parliament or legislative assemblies itâs clear that the numbers have steadily declined or one can say is becoming invisible. On the other hand their population has grown many folds. Thus there is a strong need for a social and educational reform among the Muslim community.
I am of the strong belief that this cannot be a cup of tea for political parties. Yes, we do need some one like Sir Syed to start an educational revolution amongst the Muslim community of the country. But I wish to underline a word of caution towards the suspicious and anti-reform role played by the Muslim League and Congress so that the Indian Muslims are deprived of development and remain committed to their political requirements when Sir Syed started his noble revolutionary educational work.
Godhra was a heinous crime, no doubt... but on the first week of March last year, when 1000 Muslims were burnt to death in a state ruled by your party, what was going in your mind? Avinash Khare
Quote:The Godhra incident and (what happened) after that were not only heinous crimes but a blot on humanity. However, one should understand the role of the main opposition parties particularly of Congress after the Godhra happenings in the Parliament and outside Parliament. They never spoke a single word against the Godhra incident and this attitude of theirs angered the majority community of Gujarat. However, we donât support the view and neither justify that any anger should be converted into violence.
I thought BJP would be party with a difference but it now appears you are putting the party above the country.... Venkataraman
Yes, we are a party with a difference and are proud that because of our strong nationalist ideologies and commitment towards national interests we stand out differently amongst the other political parties in the country in the current circumstances.
Why do you rake up the Ayodhya issue during elections times? Ashwin Digvi
We have never treated Ayodhya as an election issue and never want Ayodhya to be an election issue. But, unfortunately, the other political parties, due to their own political agenda during elections, rake up Ayodhya issue thus compelling BJP to give a befitting reply.
You should honestly judge the role played by the Congress Party â from opening the locks to Shilanyas and from Shilanyas to demolition and after demolition to their Prime Minister announcing from the ramparts of Red Fort about reconstruction of the mosque. Also, Rajiv Gandhi starting his election campaign from the Ayodhya by giving a slogan of ââRam Rajyaââ.
Why is the BJP giving you only this âMuslim faceâ role, while Shahnawaz Hussain enjoys Cabinet power? Varkey Thottathil
We are all party soldiers and we all perform different responsibilities assigned by the party with full dedication and commitment.
People are fed up with agendas like Ayodhya... Whatâs the BJPâs plan to fight terrorism? Vipul Patel
One should not relate Ayodhya to terrorism. Ayodhya is a matter of faith and terrorism is an issue of destruction of country. While the world is facing the wrath of terrorism now and particularly after 9/11 the US and EU countries have realised the danger of terrorism where as India had been facing it for over two decades.
Despite their efforts, terrorist organisations have never succeeded in making a centre in India. One can say that their nefarious designs to have a safe heaven on Indian soil has been crushed. From Parliament to Akshardham we have crushed all their challenges and given a befitting reply to the terrorist outfits and their sponsorers.
You are considered as the Muslim voice of BJP... do you think you have represented the Muslim voice in the right direction? Zamir
After Independence, people of India rejected parties like Muslim League and Hindu Mahasabha since they did not want to be related to politics on the basis of Muslim or Hindu voices.
Now the need is of a nationalist voice in both the communities which can help in the over all growth of the country. Of course, my sincere and honest endeavour would always be to work towards the socio-economic and educational upliftment of the Indian Muslims. I feel that these are the real issues of the community, which can help them to join the mainstream of progress of the country.
Ayodhya is merely a symptom, not the root cause
The portuguese destroyed lots of temples in Goa
and recently some portuguese citizens returned to Goa to
reconstruct some of these temples
This kind of reform has not yet happened in islam
One of the key tenets of islam is to humiliate kafirs
Hence the temple destruction and insistence on cow slaughter
Recently they are trying to destroy the Bethlehem church
3 years ago, they forcibly converted a jewish prophet's tomb into a mosque
in the west bank
Islam is a linear ratchet system like communism, building a mosque on a temple
signifies the victory of islam over the infidel
Ayodhya liberation was especially galling, since they saw a reversal of islam
and this was not supposed to happen
In general, muslims undergo severe mood swings, elation to deep depression
They were in the deep depression mode until about 1980, when the OIC started
pumping in the money
Especially 1948-1960 and 1972-1977 were periods of deep depression
and insecurity, the sikh hindu reprisals, the defeat of pakistan had totally demoralised them
Unfortunately hindus did not use these opportunities to push through
UCC, Article 370, Kashi, Mathura, Ayodhya
Right now they are in elation mode thanks to pakistan's nukes, OIC money etc
The continous US screwing of muslims as part of war on terror is deflating them
When they are in deep depression mode, from 1860-1920, Arya Samaj
Shuddi activists did reconversion even in muslim majority areas such as in Sindh
and west punjab.
During the rule of Ranjit Singh, they were in deep depression mode
thanks to his ruthless rule and he banned the azan and made many mosques into
horse manure storage barns
Right now they feel that they can be obstinate since by producing too many children, muslims can take over
SIMI which consists of college educated muslims ran a long anti-family planning campaign
Mullahs preach that they will be majority in 20 years
( which is false. In residual India muslims will never be majority )
In Frontline, an poll showed that muslims grossly over-estimate their numbers
In Gujurat, they are 9%, yet 70% of muslims believe that they are over 20%
I have seen claims of 180, 200, 250, 280 million muslims in India by muslim intellectuals
This over-estimation of numbers encourages them to riot, since they
miscalculate the risk-reward odds and needless to say in day 2 of the riots
hindus gain the upper hand and muslims play the victim
Per Syed Shahabuddin, he estimates 138 mil, and I agree with this estimate
for the 2001 census
On the issue of Temple and rioting
Yes rioting will happen if the temple is built
Most hindus are OK with the status quo, since there is already a temple there
and the question is between small temple and large temple
and most hindus are not willing to riot for a bigger temple
Muslims today are at the same 13.3% they were in residual India
that they were in 1947, before the sikh-hindu reprisals which reduced them
to 9.9%
So in actual terms, despite demographic warfare through higher fertility and
illegal immigration, muslims are right back where they started
In addition, 97% of the security forces are non-muslim
In 1947, they were 35% of the police in residual India, plus they had the Nizams
army of 2 lakh razakars
Muslim striking power in India is due to vote banks
Cops are prevented from arresting muslim criminals and encountering them
Stern policing will curb their rioting potential and flip them from Jihadi mode
to peaceful mode
However, mass civil unrest is inevitable in 50 years
Cyprus went into civil war with muslims at 18%
and by 2050, muslims will be 17% in India ( 20% in north India ) and 38% in south asia
I expect muslims to make a bid for either another partition or a total islamisation
The correct choice for hindus is to put Ayodhya on hold, and prepare for the
inevitable coming conflict.
Ideally the conflict can be avoided if hindus first learn about islam, match
muslim fertility to contain islam %, and re-educate muslims
Muslims will take to terrorism when they reach critical mass and Ayodhya has
nothing to do with it
By focusing on temple rather than islamic terrorism, we will be making the
same wrong choice like our ancestors did and which is why the hindu temples got
destroyed in the first place
The urgent thing to do is to educate hindus about islam and hopefully muslims
Expose the mullahs, who are the real villain
The average muslim is simply brainwashed by the mullah
Vote for govts that will do stern policing such as muslim mafia encountering,
and making safe, muslim NO-GO zones and curb jihadist mullahs
Muslims do respond to the carrot / stick if carefully administered
Jayalalitha has cut off the mosque loudspeakers
Finally learn from 1947 so that we are prepared for 2050
Hi all, my first post here! Many thanks to admin for nice forum.
Is it possible to get the latest ASI report on Ayodhya excavations?
welcome to the forum nach1keta. we wish you many happy posts.
[url="http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=318652"]Muslim body questions Lord Ram's birth facts[/url]
To which a sulekhite has countered as follows..
Quote:SCWB said:
1. THat's not the birth place of Ram.
2. Ayodhya was unhabitated before 6th century. This clearly means either lord rama was not born during that period or not born in Ayodhya.
3. No mention of Babri mosque.
4. No statue was found.
My objectin:
1. I do not think the case is running to prove disputed site to be a birth place as earlier comment also pointed this out. When samudragupta constructed a temple their he believed it was a birth place of Ram but that is another issue.
2. Who said birth of ram has anything to do with 6th century. Mahabharat is dated back to 1500-1700 BC and many literature suggest the time of Ram started sometime before 100 years.
3. Why should ASI call it Mosque when pooja was being performed for Ram. ASI is a scientific organisation not a propoganda machine.
4. That is really a silly question as we all know invaders always destroyed statues because their main aim was to kill kaffirs who worship statues. Mosly statues were destroyed or taken to the shrine of mecca so that everyone can walk on them before go to shrine (ref: Babarnama. Detail reference could be traced out from Arun Shaurie's "The Eminent historians)
[url="http://www.ndtv.com/template/template.asp?template=Ayodhya&slug=Waqf+submits+objections+on+ASI+report&id=43464&callid=1"]Waqf submits objections on ASI report[/url]
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