Islam is more a religion of breeding than a religion of the sword
The sword took islam from 0% to 12% by 1900
The womb took islam from 12% in 1900 to 37% by 2050
Hence counter breeding is more important than counter rioting
Xtianity can be defeated by intellectual exposure of its history and its doctrines
Islam can only be defeated by babies
lmao@ counter rioting.
i laughed, on a thread as serious as this.
tell me, why should we LET them breed, just cos they want to??
if macedonia is allowing them to breed, and hence geting screwed, then it serves as an example for us to NOT follow.
we should not allow them to breed like rabbits.
tell me, why should we LET them breed, just cos they want to??
----
And how are you going to enforce any laws on muslims ?
Many hindus are opportunists who want to increase muslim numbers for vote bank gain
Such laws will never get passed
Muslims dont obey laws anyways
Look at the no-go zones in muslim ghettos worldwide
It took the emergency to impose family planning on muslims
--
if macedonia is allowing them to breed, and hence geting screwed, then it serves as an example for us to NOT follow.
we should not allow them to breed like rabbits
----
How ,are you going to sterilise them yourself ?
Short of a full scale civil war, or a Chinese style dictatorship this is futile
The govt will not protect you, you have to protect yourself from islam by breeding 5
---
Next even if the internal muslim is limited to 2 kids, there is no way to stop the external muslim from illegally immigrating in
The only sure method is counter breeding
G.S
i am sure the immigration process will be stopped once it becomes big enough and stuff like voter identity cards and ration cards are centralised.
while we not be able to plug the borders we will know who is the illegal alien, since the records will tell us.
as for stopping population explosion, the bjp was talking about those lines when in power. the world bank and imf too will arm twist india to do something about the population before handign out further loans. i am sure we wont take their rabbit like growth sitting down. sooner or later another sanjay gandhi like person will come, ngo's will drive te point home, female literracy will be made compulsory etc. by all these factors together, their growth can be checked. meanwhile the hindus who dont mind having 5 kids or more can have them.
<!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+Feb 8 2006, 09:26 PM-->QUOTE(ben_ami @ Feb 8 2006, 09:26 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->i am sure the immigration process will be stopped once it becomes big enough and stuff like voter identity cards and ration cards are centralised.
while we not be able to plug the borders we will know who is the illegal alien, since the records will tell us.
----
Please read this thread from the beginning
Your remedy has been suggested by many dozens of posters and refuted by
me
The Indian system is corrupt from top to bottom
millions of BD illegals are already on our electoral rolls with documentation
provided by secular hindus
---
as for stopping population explosion, the bjp was talking about those lines when in power.
---
If BJP tries to sterilise muslims there will be Ayodhya riots x 1000
-----
the world bank and imf too will arm twist india to do something about the population before handign out further loans.
----
India no longer needs loans and is a net creditor
---
i am sure we wont take their rabbit like growth sitting down. sooner or later another sanjay gandhi like person will come,
----
And by the time it takes for this ,muslims will have breeded and created
Mughalstan
----
ngo's will drive te point home, female literracy will be made compulsory etc. by all these factors together, their growth can be checked.
-----
NGOs are psec controlled and want a rise in muslim %
Educated muslims breed more than uneducated hindus
G.S
---
meanwhile the hindus who dont mind having 5 kids or more can have them.
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Islam is a very powerful, primitive force and no neat methods will stop islam
To stop islam, you have to use islamic methods
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+Mar 7 2005, 02:40 AM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Mar 7 2005, 02:40 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Per a xtian evangelical site
Islam is a biological problem
Meaning they breed too fast to be converted
By the time you convert 1, they breed 100
Reconversion efforts are thus guaranteed to fail, unless accompanied by counter-breeding, which slows down islam so that reconversion has a chance to work
G.S
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can you please name that site.
can someone supply a link to prove that the doctrine of increasing their numbers by rabbit-like breeding and by having as many kids as possible outside marriage (take women slaves and have b@st@rd kids etc), is ingrained in islam?
<!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+Mar 11 2006, 02:31 AM-->QUOTE(ben_ami @ Mar 11 2006, 02:31 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->can someone supply a link to prove that the doctrine of increasing their numbers by rabbit-like breeding and by having as many kids as possible outside marriage (take women slaves and have b@st@rd kids etc), is ingrained in islam?
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There are the following hadiths
'Marry women who are fertile and prolific'
'At the time of day of judgement, I want my followers to outnumber
all other religions'
Regarding the 'biological problem'
I cant find it now, but trust me, the evangelical site said that they breed
too fast to be converted
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+Mar 11 2006, 10:05 AM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Mar 11 2006, 10:05 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+Mar 11 2006, 02:31 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ben_ami @ Mar 11 2006, 02:31 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->can someone supply a link to prove that the doctrine of increasing their numbers by rabbit-like breeding and by having as many kids as possible outside marriage (take women slaves and have b@st@rd kids etc), is ingrained in islam?
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There are the following hadiths
'Marry women who are fertile and prolific'
'At the time of day of judgement, I want my followers to outnumber
all other religions'
Regarding the 'biological problem'
I cant find it now, but trust me, the evangelical site said that they breed
too fast to be converted
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thanks for the hadiths.
bit i need reference not quotation. (eg - such and such book so and so page number. like sura 14.6 of that book). because peopel may say i made that hadith up.
also is there any historical evidence to show that muslims actually did that - ie. actually married as many wives as they could and forcibly had kids with slave women, just so the kids grow up as muslims.
i remember reading one such page in one of those voiceofdharma online books - unfortunately i cant recollect which. there they provided substantian evidence to prove (1) that islam has this doctrine of breeding like rabbits and (2) the islamic barbarians in india actually had lots and lots of kids, both legit and illegit, just to increase islamic numbers.
can someone help me?
Here is the whole story about Islam and Birth control:
"4. Islam and birth control
4.1. Islam condoning birth control
It is routinely assumed in Hindu circles that Islam prohibits family planning. But against the talk of Muslim "demoÂgraÂphic aggresÂsion", seculÂariÂsts like to emphaÂsize that, unlike ChrisÂtianity and JudaiÂsm, Islam explicitly allows birth contrÂol. And this is entirely correct. As Yoginder Sikand argues, "Islam is one of the few religiÂons that allow for birth control".[1]
In the Golden Age of Islam (7th-11th century), various writers freely wrote instructions for birth contrÂol, e.g. Al-Jahiz wrote in a book about the animal kingÂdom: "The difference between human beings and other species is that only human beings practise birth controlÂ."[2] Of the four Sunni schools of jurisprudenÂce, the Malikite prohibits abortion altogether, the Hanbalite and Shafiite allow it in the first forty days, while the Hanafite school allows abortion in the first four months of pregÂnancy. All the schools permit the use of contracÂeptives. The ShiiÂtes conÂsider birth control, in pre-modern times mostly coïtus interrupÂtus, the normal pracÂtice in case of temporary (Muta) marriages, "so much so that a man who wanted childÂren had to make a special proviÂsion in the Muta Marriage Contract so as not to practise 'withdrawÂal'."[3]
For this reason, there is a lot of practical advice on birth control in Islamic literature, far more than in the fabled Hindu and Chinese sex manuals. A number of mediÂeval authorities on Islamic law and medicine have writÂten about birth control in a matter-of-fact, non-judgmental way. The greatest Muslim medic, Ibn Zakaria al Razi (Latin Razes) has given a list of 176 contracÂeptive or aborÂtive techniques or preparatioÂns, while Abu Ali ibn Sina (AvicÂenna) mentioned several dozen.[4] The HanÂaÂfi jurÂist Ibn Abadin allowed women to use birth control and to have an abortion until the 120th day of pregnancy, even without their husÂbands' consent.[5]
Even Ibn Taimiya, the 13th-century Hanbali theolÂogian who in most matters is the ackÂnowleÂdged godfather of today's "fuÂndameÂntalisÂts", permitted the use of contrÂacepÂtive devicÂes. Ibn TaimiÂya's argument was based on a paraÂdoxÂical implication of the doctrÂine of God's omÂnipotÂence: no matter how you try to preÂvent concepÂtion, if God has decided that a child will be conÂceived, schemÂing human beings are powerÂless to thwart His designs. Now, since God can always overrule the plans of man, the use of contraÂceptives does not really interfere with God's designs, ergo it is perÂmitteÂd.[6]Â
In their innocence, some Islamic apologists use arÂguments to prove Islam's progressiveness concerning birth control regardÂless of their negaÂtivÂe implications in other respecÂts. Thus, the principal of an Islamic college writÂes: "Islamic jurispruÂdence has always allowed the above-mentioned family planÂning method with slave girls as it is one of its fundamental dictates that a slave girl becomes free the moÂment she gives birth to a chilÂd."[7] So, to keep her in slavery it was alÂlowed to preveÂnt her from getting pregnant, which says a lot about the centrality of the institution of slavery to Islamic civilization.
Even more troubling is the context of the main inÂcident in MohamÂmed's career which jusÂtifies birth control (and is therefÂore routinely menÂtioned as proof of MoÂhammÂed's progresÂsivÂeneÂss). Mohammed's men had captured women from Mecca in the raid on a Meccan caravan at Badr (see next para), intenÂding to sell them back to their familÂies for a handsome ranÂsom, but asked Mohammed if they could use them for their sexual gratifÂication. ConÂsiderÂing that the ransom would go down if the women were not returÂned in their original conÂdition, the Prophet told his men that they could freely go and rape them as long as they pracÂtised coitus interrupÂtus (Arabic azl). So, the Prophet conÂdoned hostÂage-taking and rape.[8] NonetheÂlÂÂÂÂÂeÂss,ÂÂ these two instances of clumsy apoloÂgÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂeticÂÂÂÂs do conÂfirm that Islam approves of birth control.
4.2. Islam prohibiting birth control
In spite of this solid tradition of at least tolerÂance to birth control, there is now a strong countercurÂrent which objects to birth control and propagates a natalist policy. After atÂtacking "the protagonists of HinÂdutva" for having "perfected the art of demagogy, deception and venomÂous communal propaganda" including the "oft-repeated acÂcusations that Islam is striÂctly opposed to family planÂning", Yoginder Sikand admits: "Their loud proclÂamatÂions have been further legitimised by some ignorant and obscuÂrantist mullahs, who also assert that Islam and family planÂning are not compatible with each other."[9] Even the alÂleged HinÂdutva propÂaÂganda that "Muslims are furiously mulÂtiplyÂing as part of a grand Islamic conspiracy to swamp the counÂtry and conÂvert it into a Muslim-majority state"[10] is candidÂly conÂfirmed by these "ignorant and obscurantist mulÂlahs".
Leave alone Urdu pamphlets, a neatly published English book from the impecÂcably Islamic Noor Publishing House (Delhi), MuhamÂmad SamiulÂlah's MusÂlims in Alien SocieÂty, is sufÂficiently explicit about the demogÂraÂphic desigÂns of contemporary IsÂlÂam.[11]ÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂ SamiulÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂlah rejecÂts familyÂÂ planÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂning as a WÂestÂÂÂÂÂÂÂern ploy to diminisÂÂh the numÂbers of the Muslim population in order to maintain its hegemoÂny. The core of his argument is that birth control has no sanctÂion from the Quran nor from the example and sayings of the ProphÂet. Since others have claimÂeÂd just the opÂposite, a close reading of the source texts of Islam is needed.
As Samiullah notes, MohamÂmed sanctÂioned, even comÂmanded, the practice of coitus interÂruptus, the then most readÂily availaÂble method of birth control, in the afterÂmath of the battle of Badr, his first great victory which yielÂded him a number of woman hostages. For the present disÂcusÂsion, the point which SamiulÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂlah wants to make is that this guidelÂine laid down by the Prophet was contradÂicted by the Prophet himself on later ocÂcasiÂons. SamiulÂlah recoÂunts a number of Ahadis (episodes of the PropÂhet's life serÂving as the authoritative basis of IsÂlamic law) where the PropÂhet opposed this method of birth control.[12]Â
Thus, after the camÂpaign against the Banu al-MusÂtaliq, the MusÂlims wanted to rape the hostages and asked MohamÂmed whether they should practise azl, but the PropÂhet replied, with reference to the futility of human scheming before God's omniÂpotence: "It does not matter if you don't do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of ResurrecÂtion will be born." Since this (and similar ones) is a later Hadis than the one containing his pro-azl inÂjunction at Badr, it overÂrules the earÂlier one, at least accorÂding to the theologiÂcal principle that in case of contradiction, the earlier pronounÂcement is overruled by the later one.[13]
AdmitÂtedly, the fact that the Prophet encouraged azl on at least one occasion does create some legal room for birth contrÂol, and Samiullah concedes that it is expÂlicÂitly permitted in case the woman is in poor health and could not bear the burden of pregÂnancy and the effort of delivÂery. But the main weight of MohammÂed's norÂmative opiniÂonÂ, SamiulÂlah argues, is certainly on the side of natalism and against birth-contrÂol. Hence the Prophet's prohiÂbition, at least on one ocÂcasion, of knowiÂngly marrying a sterile woman; his prohiÂbition of non-vaginal interÂcourse (another primiÂtive form of birth contrÂol); and his strict prohibition of steriliÂzation and of voluntary celibacy.
4.3. Islamic natalism
Hindu Revivalist authors have dug up some more quotatiÂons to support the perception of natalist designs in Islam. K.S. Lal quotes Mohammed as saying in so many words: "Marry women who will love their husÂbands and be very prolific, for I want you to be more numerous than any other people".[14] Ram Swarup quotÂesÂÂÂÂÂÂ the Prophet as saying: "In my Ummah, he is the best who has the largÂest number of wivesÂ."[15] Even a seculÂar Muslim canÂdidÂly calls it "one of the funÂdamental tenets of IsÂlam -- namely, to multiply the triÂbÂe."[16]Â
Samiullah's point is that as a general policy, the Prophet opposed any behavÂiour which was demographically wasÂteful and unproductive. He was less fussy about ocÂcasional loss of semen in sterile forms of interÂcourse than Moses' laws had been, but as a rule he favoured the same natalist policy. ÂSamiullah opines: "Had the monster of 'Birth ContrÂol' as an instrument of state policy raised its head in the days of the Holy Prophet, he would surely have declared Jihad against it in the same manner as he waged Jihad against Shirk (polytheismÂ)."[17] And he conclÂuÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂdÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂes: "The QurÂ'an says that 'ChilÂdren are an ornament of life' and HaÂdith litÂeraÂture views with favour larger families for the greÂater strength of Ummah, and as such birth control / family planÂning cannot be in any way comÂpatible with the Shari'ÂaÂh."[18]Â
Samiullah argues, not unconvincingly, that the Sharia position is supported by modern science. He cites findings that both the birth-control pill and vasectomy, once (or still) propagÂated as entirely harmleÂss, are in fact harmful to the concerned person's health.[19] He also shows that the popularization of the pill and other moÂdern forms of contraception has contributed immensely to freer sexual mores in the West, or what he calls immorality. With all this, SamiulÂlah has put together a battery of Islamic plus secular arguments which are bound to sound convinÂcing to the Muslim masÂses.[20]
Another Indian Muslim author telling Muslim women to "shun birth control" is Muhammad Imran, whose book is published by the Markazi Maktaba Islami ("IslaÂmic EducatiÂonal Centre"), Delhi, the leading provider of Islamic schoolÂbooks.[21] He emÂphasizes that "birth control should be resorted to only in cases of extreme necesÂsity, such as the wife's ill-health owing to constant births. Imam Abu Hanifa holds it makruh (abomiÂnable)."[22] He too invokes the authÂoÂriÂty of WesterÂÂÂÂÂÂn scienÂtists to dismiss it as unÂhealthy, and points to its "undeÂrmining" effects on morÂalÂity in WesÂtern socieÂty.[23]
4.4. The Rabita's natalism
The Indian Muslim authors quoted are not alonÂe. ThousaÂnds of preacÂhers instil the same natalÂist resolve into their flock, even in counÂtrÂies like Egypt and BangladÂesh where this position is actualÂly subverÂsive of the Government's official anti-nataÂlist policies: "Even in overÂpopulated Egypt the theologiÂans reject family planÂning, at best they merely tolerate the generally inefÂfective steps which the GoverÂnment takeÂs."Â[24]Â
The natalist and anti-contraceptive line is even defended by the world's most powerful Islamic orÂganizatiÂon, the Rabita al-Alam al-IsÂlamiyya (World IsÂlamic LeagÂue). At the UN Conference on PopulÂatÂion in Cairo 1994, a number of Muslim countrÂies joined hands with the Vatican in opposing contraceptives and abortion. On the occasion of this UN conference, the Rabita called a meetÂing chaiÂred by the Saudi king, where a resolution was passed "against the legalization of abortion (...) against a policy of conÂceding sexual rights to adolesÂcents and unmarried persons (...) against raising the marriageable age (...) We want to make it clear: the Islamic Sharia is against abortion. (...) We strongly oppose the propÂosed resolution which pleads for complete equality between man and woman." The resolution also alleges that birth control policÂies are but a Western ploy to mask exploitative desigÂns, and concludÂes: "If the world's riches are honeÂstly dividÂed, there will be enough for all, and there will be no reason to limit the number of children."[25]Â
The Cairo Conference was a bone of contention in the Muslim world. Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Malaysia boycotÂted the Conference. The EgypÂtian Grand-Mufti Mohammed Sayed Tantawi defended the Conference against a condemÂnation of its agenda by Al-Azhar univeÂrÂsitÂy.[26] EgypÂtian opposition newspapers atÂtacked the Conference, alleging that its anti-natalist agenda would lead to all kinds of immoraÂlity and the undeÂrmining of parental authoritÂy.[27] Thirty prominent Muslims apÂproached the courts in a failed attempt to have the Conference banneÂd.[28] IsÂlamic spokesÂmen denounÂced the UNO plans as a conspiraÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂcy agaiÂnst "the Islamic bomb, viz. the exponenÂtial increÂase of the number of Muslims worldwidÂe".[29]
The SudaneÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂse GoverÂÂnment denounÂÂÂced the ConÂference as "a ploy to depopulate the Arab countÂries [and] to miniÂmize the populÂation increase in the Muslim world", and apÂplauded the stateÂment by a professor of Al-Azhar that the ConÂfereÂnce intenÂded to "destÂroy the Muslim natiÂon".[30]ÂÂ While some Muslims favour a realisÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂtic popuÂlÂation policÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂy, it is unÂdeniaÂble that others approach the matter in terms of demogÂraphic warÂfare.
4.5. Why Muslim natalism?
The contrast in the Muslim world between the medieval tolerance of birth control and the modern opposition to it can be explaÂined. First of all, even these medieval writiÂngs on conÂtraÂceptive methÂods have never preaÂched populaÂtion contÂrol as a geneÂral policy. Samiullah is probably right to the extent that he distinguishes betÂween people's private lives, where MohaÂmmed did not prohibit birth control, and public policy, where MohaÂmmed took a natalÂist positÂion. In pracÂtice, birth control as conÂdoned by MohÂammed and the medieval Muslim authors was never on such a scale that it enÂdangeÂred the steady increase of the Muslim perÂcentage, if only because there was a consÂtant trickle of converts from the non-Muslim comÂmunitiÂes. Most importantly, there was a situation of unchalÂlenged Muslim dominatiÂon, not one of Muslim decline and subserÂvience to other powers, as in the 20th century, nor one of permanent confÂronÂtation with a non-Muslim majority as in conÂtemÂporary India.
Demography is a bigger concern today because Islam is fighting for its surviÂval, if not for world supremacy. Muhammad Samiullah is explicit about the good reason for natalism: "There is no denying the fact that the politiÂcal prestÂige and military strength of a country depends upon the size of its populÂation. (...) In the Islamic context greater populatÂion has a double sigÂnificaÂnce because one cannot wage an effective Jihad without an expanding populaÂtion."[31]
We may probably generalize that the demographic ebulÂlience of Muslim comÂmunities is for the largest part the innocent and automÂatic result of, firstly, the age-old desire to see the tribe increÂase, which Mohammed merely confirmed but did not inÂvent; and secondly, of the status of woman in Islam, which is strongly conducive to her exclusive motherhood. However, in the presÂent geopoÂlitical cirÂcumstÂances, certain powerful Islamic orÂganizaÂtions have added to these natural facÂtors a deliberate strategy of strengthÂening the positÂion of Islam by multiplying its numÂbers. Though they do not have a monopoly on Islamic orÂthoÂdoxy, they do influence Muslim collective behaviour to a subsÂtanÂtial extent, especÂialÂly in (what is to Islam) a frontline state like India.
4.6. So, who was right?
The Hindu revivalists are essentially right about the ongoing subsÂtanÂtial increÂase in the Muslim percentage of the Indian populÂation. A realistic extrapolation into the future of present demograÂphic (inclÂuding migratory) trends does predict a Muslim majority in the SubconÂtinent well before the end of the 21st century, and a Muslim majority in the Indian Union sometime later, but in some regions much earlier. The demograÂphic difÂferential is not of such a magnitude that Muslims will soon outnumÂber Hindus in the whole of India; but it is large enough to create MusÂlimâÂmaÂjority areas in strategic corners of the country, "two, three, many Kashmirs!"
Hindu revivalists who argue that Muslim have a higher birth rate, that their percentage is growing fast, and that this is the result of an intentional policy on the part of at least a section of the Muslim leadeÂrship, are right. It is not just that they "have a point" or that they "Âdeserve a hearing", no: they are nothing less than right. Only the exact quantity of the trend is a matter for dispute.
And why stop our conclusion with finding the Hindu position right? The data just surveyed also teach us something about the secularists who have ridiculed and thoroughly blackened the said Hindu position: they are wrong. We have not used any esoteric figures inaccessible to the common man; all these data were at the disposal of the secularists. Yet, some of them insist that the Muslim percentage will remain constant, or that the Muslim increÂase is proportionate to relative Muslim poverty. The fact deserves to be noted: a whole class of leading intellecÂtuals brutalÂly denies easily verifiable facts, i.c. the accelerating increase of the Muslim and the decrease of the Hindu perÂcentage, and the intenÂtionality behind this Muslim demographic offensive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] Yoginder Sikand: "Bogey of family planning and Islam", Observer of Business and Politics, 27-2-1993, with refereÂnce to B.F. Musallam: Sex and Society in Islam (Cambridge 1933).
[2] Quoted in Lucas Catherine: Islam voor Ongelovigen (EPO, Antwerp 1997), p.215.
[3] Yoginder Sikand: "Bogey of family planning and Islam", Observer of Business and Politics, 27-2-1993.
[4] Quoted in Lucas Catherine: Islam voor Ongelovigen, p.216.
[5] Quoted to this effect by Yoginder Sikand: "Bogey of family planning and Islam", Observer of Business and PolitÂics, 27-2-1993.
[6] Quoted to this effect by L. Catherine: Islam voor OnÂgeloviÂgen, p.216.
[7] Wasi Ahmad Siddiqi: "Family Planning and Prophet", letter in Indian Express, 30-4-1990.
[8] Though Ram Swarup discusses this and similar episÂodes (UndeÂrstÂanding Islam through Hadis, p.61-62, ref. to Sahih al-Muslim 3371), he does not draw attention to this revealing aspect pertaining to Islamic ethics.
[9] Yoginder Sikand: "Bogey of family planning and Islam", Observer of Business and Politics, 27-2-1993.
[10] Yoginder Sikand: "Bogey of family planning and Islam", Observer of Business and Politics, 27-2-1993.
[11] Muhammed Samiullah: Muslims in Alien Society (Delhi 1992), esp. ch.8: "Islam and Birth Control", p.86-97.
[12] Samiullah: Muslim in Alien Society, p.87.
[13] This exegetical principle (called nashk) is dispuÂted by some progresÂsive theologians. Thus, concerÂning the relations with non-Muslims, the older verses are more restrained while later verses are very combattive; but MahÂmud Shaltut, Rector of Al-Azhar in 1958-63 (Koran and Fighting, reprodÂuÂced in R. Peters: Jihad in Classical and Modern Islam, Markus Wiener, Princeton 1997, esp. p.80-82) rejects the view that the more peaceÂful verses stand abrogated by the later, more warlike ones. His argument is that all of them are diviÂnely revealÂed and therefore valid; it is up to the interÂpreter to rhyme seemingly contÂraÂdictory verses togeÂthÂer, rather than arÂrogantly declaring some of God's verses invalidated.
[14] Quoted from T.P. Hughes: Dictionary of Islam, p.314, who refers to book 13 of Mishkatu'l MasaÂbih ("nicÂhes for lamps [of the tradition]", a compilation of Sunni traditÂions by the 12th-century Imam Husain al-BaghawÂi, expanded in the 14th century by Shaykh Waliuddin).
[15] Katib al-Wâqidî (= Ibn Sa'd): Tabaqât Ibn Sa'd, vol.2, p.146 of the Urdu translation from Nafees Academy, Karachi; quoted by Ram Swarup: Understanding Islam through Hadis (Voice of India 1989), p.57n.
[16] Saeed Naqvi: Reflections of an Indian MusÂlim (Har-Anand, Delhi 1993), p.32.
[17] M. Samiullah: Muslims in Alien Society, p.90.
[18] M. Samiullah: Muslims in Alien Society, p.97.
[19] See e.g. Dr. Ellen Grant: The Bitter Pill (Elm Tree Books, London 1985), which presents the (grim) medical case against the birth-control pill.
[20] That this natalist position has struck roots among ordinary Muslims may be illustrated with the case of MohamÂmed Tofazzal Mollah: he was sacked as Imam at the village mosque of Bahipara (northern Bangladesh) because his wife had been sterilized after having given birth to six childrÂen. The village population ralÂlied behind the two Maulanas who had issued the fatwa condemning the poor Imam. See: "Imam faces fatwa as wife refuses to conÂceive", Indian Express, 18-11-1993.
[21] M. Imran: Ideal Woman, Delhi 1994 (1981), p.66.
[22] M. Imran: Ideal Woman in Islam, p.66.
[23] M. Imran: Ideal Woman, p.68.
[24] "Iranische Theologen für Geburtenkontrolle" (GeÂrman: "IranÂian theolÂogians in favour of birth control"), FrankfuÂrter AllgemeÂine Zeitung, 19-1-1990. The main thrust of the article is that in Iran's Islamic RepublÂic, the theologians are more loyal to the regime and its policies (i.c. the switch from a natalist to a moderately anti-natalist policy), while in Egypt, they take a doctrinaire Islamic line against the "secular" GovernÂment policies.
[25] Mecca, 3-9-1994, quoted in L. Catherine: Islam voor OnÂgelovigen, p.217.
[26] "Kaïro-konferentie verdeelt moslims" (Dutch: "Cairo ConÂference divides Muslims"), De Morgen (Brussels), 24-8-1994.
[27] "Egyptische islamisten verwerpen konferentie" (Dutch: "Egyptian IsÂlamists reject conference"), De Standaard, 17-8-1994.
[28] "Rechter weigert konferentie te verbieden" (Dutch: "Judge refuses to prohibit conference"), De Morgen, 31-8-1994.
[29] "'Vrouwen zijn sleutel voor de ontwikkeling'" (Dutch: "'Women are key to development'"), De Morgen, 17-8-1994.
[30] "'Westerse delegaties zullen ernstige risico's lopen': Khartoem waarscÂhuwt VN-bevolkingskonferenÂtie in Kaïro" (Dutch: "'Western delegations will run serious risks': Khartum warns UN Conference in Cairo"), De Morgen, 27-8-1994.
[31] M. Samiullah: Muslims in Alien Society, p.95-96.
[url=http://www.bharatvani.org/books/demogislam/part4.html"]http://www.bharatvani.org/books/demogislam/part4.html"[/url]
And here are the references to the quotes provided by G.Sub:
"Marry women who will love their husÂbands and be very prolific, for I want you to be more numerous than any other people".[14]
"In my Ummah, he is the best who has the largÂest number of wivesÂ."[15]"
Go to footnotes 14 and and you will see the references.
LONDON [MENL] -- India has begun training personnel from Iran's navy.
Indian officials said the training marked the first military cooperation between Teheran and New Dehli in a decade. They said the two countries were implementing a military agreement that included an exchange of visits by commanders, training, joint exercises and technical cooperation.
On March 8, the Iranian Navy completed a five-day training program at the Indian naval base in Kochi. Two Iranian Navy ships stayed in the southern Indian city for nearly a week and nearly 200 cadets underwent training.
The Indo-Asian News Service reported that the IRIS Bandar Abbas and IRIS Lavan anchored in Kochi on March 3. Bandar Abbas was termed a modified training ship; Lavan was described as an amphibious assault vessel.
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thats one way to earn foreign exhange (and in this case a way to score brownie points with iran, for they may give us oil at consessional rates etc). we also earn by traning american and french pilots at siachen and traning us marines and uzbegs army personnel etc about jungle warfare in mizoram.
Hindus should not practice birth control.
Birth control pills are harmful for a female's health.
I don't practice birth control at all.
woops so you are female !!!
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/...247400.ece
Norwegian mullah claims muslims will takeover Europe because they breed like mosquitos
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Krekar claims Islam will win
Norway's most controversial refugee, Mullah Krekar, told an Oslo newspaper on Monday that there's a war going on between "the West" and Islam. He said he's sure that Islam will win, and he also had praise for suspected terrorist leader Osama bin Laden.
Mullah Krekar is making more provocative remarks in Oslo.
PHOTO: JAN TOMAS ESPEDAL
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"We're the ones who will change you," Krekar told Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet in his first interview since an uproar broke out over cartoons deemed offensive to Muslims.
"Just look at the development within Europe, where the number of Muslims is expanding like mosquitoes," Krekar said. "Every western woman in the EU is producing an average of 1.4 children. Every Muslim woman in the same countries are producing 3.5 children.
"By 2050, 30 percent of the population in Europe will be Muslim."
He claimed that "our way of thinking... will prove more powerful than yours." He loosely defined "western thinking" as formed by the values held by leaders of western or non-islamic nations. Its "materialism, egoism and wildness" has altered Christianity, he claimed.
Krekar, who's been supported by the Norwegian government since arriving as a refugee from northern Iraq in the early 1990s, now faces deportation after violating the terms of his refugee status and being deemed a threat to national security.
Bin Laden 'a good man'
Krekar told Dagbladet that he favours Islamic rule where political and religious leaders are one and the same. One such leader he respects, he said, is Osama bin Laden.
"Osama bin Laden is a good person," Krekar said. He claimed Osama bin Laden is considered a terrorist simply because he lacks his own state.
"Those who say Osama bin Laden is a terrorist are themselves killing our women and children," Krekar said.
Attempts to "spread democracy," he claimed, are merely a ruse to wage war against Islam, adding that "the West destroyed the Taliban regime in Afghanistan" because "it feared the Islamic state."
Muslims on track to takeover Australia by breeding
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=13153
RU-486 Will Give Rise to Muslim Australia
by Joseph A. D'Agostino
Posted Mar 13, 2006
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Tell Waffling Republicans: No Amnesty!
Australia recently took two important steps that may greatly influence her long-term future. One was the vote of her parliament last month to legalize RU-486, the human pesticide. The other is the stepped-up campaign by Prime Minister John Howardâs government against multiculturalism.
During an event meant to highlight opposition to RU-486, pro-life Danna Vale, a Member of Parliament and of Howardâs Liberal Party, spoke of the growing threat to Australia posed by abortion and Muslims. âIâve actually read in the Daily Telegraph, where a certain imam from the Lakemba mosque actually said that Australiaâs going to be a Muslim nation in 50 yearsâ time,â she said. âI didnât believe him at the time, but you know, when you actually look at the birthrates and you look at the fact that we are aborting ourselves almost out of existence by 100,000 abortions every year, and thatâs on a guesstimate, you multiply that by 50 years. Thatâs five million potential Australians we wonât have here.â
Valeâs comment generated the usual politically correct denunciations, and she herself later admitted that she had been âclumsy.â âI was not speaking racially, despite the criticisms I have received from those sections of the media that act more like a fifth column rather than our fourth estate,â she wrote in an op-ed for The Age, February 25. âI was speaking demographically, even if, as I have already acknowledged, in a regrettably clumsy way. The focus of my concern was the disturbing fact that there are an estimated 80,000 to 100,000 abortions in Australia each year, a fact that does worry a majority of thinking Australians. A survey conducted by the Southern Cross Bioethics Institute found that 64% of Australians think the abortion rate is too high and 87% think it should be reduced.â
Vale said that she was not criticizing Muslimsâ relatively high fertility rates. âMuslim Australians value their children,â she wrote. âIt is non-Muslim Australians who are not having enough children, a point well made by the Herald last week, which cited figures that exposed a fertility fault-line in Sydney from Cronulla to Castle Hill. The area west of that fault-line, south-western Sydney, has fertility rates more than double those in other areas. Last year around budget time, Treasurer Peter Costello encouraged Australian mothers to âhave one for yourself, one for your husband and one for Australia.â Sound advice.â
Vale practices what she preaches. âDannaâs first two babies were born after very difficult pregnancies and when she became pregnant with her fourth child in the early 1970s, her third baby was only four months old,â says Gail Instance, Director of Family Life International-Australia. âHer obstetrician advised an abortion, which she refused. She told us that her decision then has been reaffirmed every day as she looks into the eyes of her youngest son.â
It seems that the imamâs prediction is actually unlikely for Australia, whose immigrantsâunlike those into many European nationsâare mostly non-Muslim. And though the Muslim birthrate in Australia is at least 2.7 children per woman, far higher than the country average of 1.7, Muslims make up only 1.5% to 3% of the population. Most of Australiaâs immigrants currently come from China and other non-Muslim nations. Yet if immigration patterns change, the imam could turn out to be right. And certainly, barring major policy changes, Australiaâs Muslim population is going to become much larger and much more influential over the next few decades.
Why might immigration patterns change, making a Muslim Australia a real possibility? Because non-Muslim Third World populations, especially in China and other such Asian nations, now have low birthrates. Muslim countries have relatively high ones. Replacement rate is 2.1. Take two large, poor Muslim nations in Australiaâs region: Malaysia, 2.6; and Indonesia, 2.2. These arenât high birthrates, but at least they are above replacementâand thus these countries could become major sources of immigrants for Australia, whose native-born people have so few kids that immigration is necessary to keep the economy going.
Regardless of how Islamic Australia becomes, high rates of immigration, low birthrates among the native population, and the anti-assimilation multiculturalist ethos are changing the countryâs character. Those who value Australiaâs Western, English, ordered, and Christian-influenced culture should be concerned. Unfortunately, Australians arenât concerned enough to produce their future generations. Howard and many other members of the Australian government want to reduce abortion and rescue marriage, and yet couldnât prevent parliament from legalizing dangerous RU-486, which is ten times more likely to kill the aborting mother than surgical abortion. Thatâs a sign of hard-set pro-abortion feeling controlling the peopleâs representatives, and at a time when Australia needs many more children.
Thatâs why Howard and pro-life Health Minister Tony Abbott announced March 6 a plan to provide $51 million over four years for abortion alternatives counseling, including a 24-hour helpline. âThe government does not support changing the abortion law nor does it support restricting Medicare funding for abortion,â they said in a joint press release. âNevertheless, the government wants to give more support to women who are or have been uncertain about continuing a pregnancy.â Counseling will be given by those with no financial connection to abortion, and women can request to get more information from organizations of their choice.
âOur birthrate is below replacement and common sense tells us that we are committing national suicide,â says Instance. âBob Santamaria said years ago that we had better make up our minds who we want to give this country to since we donât seem to want it.â
âWhile I respect Muslim support for pro-family and pro-marriage policies, especially at the UN, the negative side is that they also agree with polygamy, even in relatively moderate countries such as Malaysia and the Gulf Emirates,â says Babette Francis, head of the anti-feminist Endeavour Forum. âThere is no doubt that the disciplined orthodoxy of Islam, prayers five times a day, clear strictures in regard to behavior, etc., are appealing to those who feel adrift in mainline Protestant churches, and to those who are âunchurched.ââ Francis considers Islam to be a potentially serious threat. âThe crucial problem is that we cannot rely on the division of Muslims into moderate good ones and terrorists,â she says. âThere are devastating flaws in the religion of Islam itself and it will always be prone to terrorism and similar evils in a way that Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and Hinduism are not.â
Howard and Costello have announced that multiculturalism has got to go. Howard said that immigrants who do not âfit inâ should not come to Australia, and Costello wants testing on cultural values before immigrants are allowed to stay in the country. In the meantime, radical Muslims in Australia are calling for jihad against their adopted nationâs own troops. Reported The Australian today, ââThe Australian Government is part of a coalition that is inflicting untold horrors upon the Muslim world whether in Iraq or Afghanistan,â the radical groupâs spokesman, Wassim Doureihi, told The Australian yesterday. âThere are bombs being dropped and there are children being killed and there are entire cities being uprooted.ââ His group, Hizb ut-Tahrir, has praised suicide bombers and the like.
The simple fact is, any country with a sizeable Muslim population these days is likely to have problems with terrorists, murderers, and insurrectionists, not to mention polygamists and anti-Semites. No amount of politically correct platitudination can change that.
An increasing proportion of children being born worldwide are Muslim. So what does that mean for the future? Australia has decided to legalize the abortion pill while Muslims are against abortion. What does that indicate about the future character of the Australian nation?
Mr. D'Agostino, former Associate Editor of HUMAN EVENTS, is Vice President for Communications at the Population Research Institute.
Muslims to takeover Russia by breeding in 30 years
http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-02-28-voa77.cfm
<b>Analyst Predicts Muslim Majority in Russia Within 30 Years </b>
By Meredith Buel
Washington
28 February 2006
A leading specialist on ethnic minorities in the Russian Federation says within the next several decades Russia will become a country with a Muslim majority. Paul Goble, a university professor and senior research associate currently based in Estonia, spoke Tuesday at the Washington headquarters of Radio Free Europe-Radio Liberty.
For 25 years Paul Goble worked for the U.S. government as an expert on minorities in the former Soviet Union.
He has been closely tracking what he describes as a huge demographic shift in Russia, a shift he says will have a major impact on the nation's relations with western countries.
"Within most of our lifetimes the Russian Federation, assuming it stays within current borders, will be a Muslim country," he said. "That is it will have a Muslim majority and even before that the growing number of people of Muslim background in Russia will have a profound impact on Russian foreign policy. The assumption in Western Europe or the United States that Moscow is part of the European concert of powers is no longer valid."
Goble, currently the Vice Dean of Social Sciences and Humanities at Concordia-Audentes University in Tallinn, Estonia, says when the Soviet Union collapsed, most western countries looked at influencing Russia from a European perspective.
He says, however, Muslim countries viewed the opportunity for migration and the spread of Islam from the Caucuses or the newly created states in Central Asia.
"The Muslim growth rate, since 1989, is between 40 and 50 percent, depending on ethnic groups," he said. "Most of that is in the Caucuses or from immigration from Central Asia or Azerbaijan."
Goble says in 1991 there were about 300 mosques in Russia. Today there are at least 8,000. He says about half of those were built with money donated from abroad, much of it from Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Goble says the number of Russians going on the Hajj, or pilgrimage to Mecca each year, has jumped from 40 in 1991 to 13,500 last year.
He says there were no Islamic religious schools in Russia 15 years ago. Today, Goble says, there are between 50 and 60 teaching as many as 50,000 students.
He says the growing influence of Islam in Russia has led to mounting discrimination.
"At the popular level, prejudice against Muslims is way up," he said. "It is perceived that prejudice against Muslims is acceptable, it is something you won't get in big trouble for."
Goble says if the Russian government supports a hostile policy toward Islam and the continued suppression of Islamic militants in the troubled republic of Chechnya, the Muslims he predicts could come to power in Moscow will be, as he puts it, "anti-western, radical and dangerous."
Goble says, however, if there is an open dialog with moderate Muslims and an isolation of the small percentage of Islamic radicals, a non-threatening government could emerge.
In any case, Goble quotes one Russian commentator in Moscow as predicting that within the next several decades there will be a mosque on Red Square.
http://www.itconversations.com/shows/detail237.html
Interesting talk. Its an audio file you can download. Very educative.
Forgot to mention. One of the figure in the above audio is that TSP will be 4th largest country after Ind/China/US. He didnt go into religion per se. But it would be interesting to see any figures on the demographic impact on worlds religious composition.
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