<!--QuoteBegin-k.ram+Jul 23 2006, 01:21 AM-->QUOTE(k.ram @ Jul 23 2006, 01:21 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Paul, thanks for prompting me to google. <!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Here is what I found, and very much in line with the books I earlier mentioned.
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Historian deSouza on the Goa Inquisition </b>
Dr. T. R. de Souza
"At least from [b]1540 onwards, and in the island of Goa before that year, all the Hindu idols had been annihilated or had disappeared, all the temples had been destroyed and their sites and building material was in most cases utilized to erectÂ
............................
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The article gives an account of Portugese Christian atrocity on Hindus. It does not say that Inquisition was for punishing Hindus or any other religious believers. Inquisition was set up to punish the beleivers, not non believers. This was first formed in Spain. At that time Spain was 100 percent Christian and believers who erred were punished by the Church. In Goa also the same thing happened. It is seperate from anti HIndu deeds of invaders. Not only Portugese, but many other invaders also did many atrocities.
<!--QuoteBegin-Viren+Jul 23 2006, 09:28 AM-->QUOTE(Viren @ Jul 23 2006, 09:28 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I think you have got a wrong impression about Goan inquistion. It could be due to your idea from some web site only. Try to know the other side or any independent views. Inquistion and especilly Goan inquisition was a tribunal to punish erring BELIEVERS, not any NON BELIEVERS. Inquisition was directed aginst members of the Catholic church. I acknowledge that it was avvery very cruel method of indictment and punishing. No Hindu was ever punished in the inquisition.
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Paul,
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Viren
There can be any number of stories about any thing. I never denied that Christians commited atrocities in India and all over the world. Defenitely there were atrocities.
Asking residents about crimes and atrocities has the similar meaning anywhere. If you ask dalits , they can also say a lot of stories about upper caste atrocities on them all over India. There may be any number of books on that as well. Committing atrocities in human beings is not a reserved entity for a particular religion.
Ben Ami had pointed out the number of people murdered by Christians. If you search Mahabharatha you can find even alarming number of people killed. It is said that Krishna waged 17 wars with Jarasandha with 23 akshauhinis of military. I know that you are aware of how much an akshaunhini is made of. All those fighters were killed. And you add the inumerable civilians killed in those wars. The Mahabharatha war was waged with 18 aksahuhinis. All of them except seven were killed. These are a few accounts from just two wars. If you look into all Hindu scriptures, they are full of such accounts.
So pointing finger to a particular religion is not a winning factor in this.
<!--QuoteBegin-paulose+Jul 23 2006, 12:43 AM-->QUOTE(paulose @ Jul 23 2006, 12:43 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Talking tit for tat is not a good thing. There are people who hate each other. There are people who hate each other based on religion as well. There are many websites which shows hatred against Hindus. Like that there are many websites which shows hatred against Christians. The question about Mexico is totally unwarranted. If ask you why India did not have a PM from BC and untouchables who make majority of Indians? We can not see that as a discrimination.
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Paulose,
Your ignorance and twisting of historical and present facts to suit your lies is amazing.
To begin with, FYI India has a Muslim president, a Sikh Prime Minister and A Catholic chief of the ruling political party. Now it is your turn to show me a single Christian Majority country with a Muslim or a Hindu at such a top level position.
Secondly, your crap about Mexico and Latin America is totally bereft of facts. Christian Spain's prosperity began when that savage and cunning Cortez with his motely group of soldiers in Mexico was welcomed by stupid Aztec king Monteczuma on their arrival who thought Cortez was the deliverer from the dreams he saw of a white Aztec God. That was the beginning of fall of the mighty Aztec empire; a story that has been repeated world over.
Simple hearted natives welcoming crooked and cunning Europeans only to find themselves being turned in to slaves in their very homes. From Latin America, North America, Asia, India, Africa, China Australia to New Zealand, everywhere Europeans went, they carried with them violence, rapine, looting, total destruction of native cultures. Christianity was used as a guise to colonize and enslave so called savage natives who many times were much more cultured and advanced than the invaders themselves.
While Jesus may have stood for peace and love, but Christianity as it stands today, has its roots in violence and bloodshed without which it would not have spread so far in numbers as bragged by you. The very fact that Jews have been persecuted for over 2000 years for fraudulent reasons by Christians is enough to debunk your attempts at covering the crimes committed in the name of religion.
Speaking of Mexico, till date it is being ruled by an elite group of Reales or Spanish & Other European descendants who control most of its assets and businesses. While poor natives or the mixed ones are only too happy to cross over to USA to work as casual labourers in cities of the United States. The rise of Chiapa Indians in South of Mexico began the downfall of longest ruling Real political party 'PRI' in Mexico. The fact is that till today the natives of Latin Amercia live on the fringes of the society whose status is hundred times worse than so called lower castes of India. Lower castes in India are forcefully represented in the Indian Parliament. Whereas, in country after country in Latin America, natives are rising against the various forms of apartheid being practised by the Ruling European descendants. Latest to fall in line is Bolivia, where for the first time a native Indian has become the President of the country. The discontent in most of the Latin American countries is coming to the surface.
Would you care to enlighten me???
Why Christianity a religion of peace failed to stop world wars faught mostly among the Christian nations?
We in India recognise Christianity as a religion and there are churches in the most Indian cities including Hindu's holiest sites like Tirupati. Would you allow Hindus to build a temple in the Vatican city?
Why there are so called so many divisions in your peaceful religion sometimes appearing much worse than our caste systems so much so that one group tried to annihilate other groups historically i.e. Catholics vs Orthodox vs Protestants vs .........
We Hindus are ready to accept the divinity of Jesus (but not Christianity as a religion). Would you accept our thousands of saints and sages who were as enlightened if not more than Jesus? Would you accept our form of worship and bow before our Gods and Goddesses?
Recently, Orthodox Russia didn't allow Iskcon to built the sole Hindu temple in the city of Moscow. Is this the kind of tolerance you guys preach?
What is the logic behing condemning the whole mankind forever for somebody eating a fruit?
<!--QuoteBegin-mitradena+Jul 23 2006, 09:58 AM-->QUOTE(mitradena @ Jul 23 2006, 09:58 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Because of the existance of a clear historical record.
Also the Jivanmuktas or the great saints <b>who have actually seen God have given live testimony to this.</b>
There are thousands of Yogis in India who perform any number of miracles you can imagine.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no historical records about Rama or Krishna. That belief is based on two books, Ramayana and Mahabharatha. Like that Bible is also a book for Christians. Based on that they believe in their God.
If you go through Christianity's history, you can see many refferences of people who have seen Jesus Christ and other saints. There are many pilgrim centres where these saints and God appeared. There are a few in India as well.
There a re a lot of people al over the world who perform miracles. Do you believe all those are saints?
Do you know anybody personally who has seen God? If yogis can do miracles, why donot you become a Yogi and save this world from bogus religions?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->There is clear proof that people are reborn after they die.
Re-incarnation is very true.
In most cases there memory of previous lives remains submerged in the sub-conscious mind.
In rare cases the person retains memory of the past life.
It is through these cases we can prove that re-incarnation is true.
Read this book:
http://www.sivananda.com/afterdeath.htm
Thousands of Psychics & spiritologists have done research on various topics.
Many reputed people including American actress Jane Seymour have out of body experiences.
Many American Police departments take the help of Psychics to help solve difficult crimes.
Are you saying all these people are liars and cheats?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never contended on the issue of rebirth and reincarnations. So this sounds irrelevant for me.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Since Islam & Xtianity stubbornly refuse to believe in these facts, we can clearly see that they are bogus religions.
You think this Universe is some kind of joke?
You think you can blabber some nonsense and pass that for the truth?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am totally clueless about this point. I never claimed any religion be true or any other as bogus. These are personal beliefs. Hindus belive that Hindusim is the true one and others are bogus. Similarly others believe that Hindusim is bogus. Strictly personal. One can not destroy one and protect the other. Ultimately it is people's choice. Islamic countries strictly forbid conversion. But there are many Non Muslims in those countries. Even if suppressed they believe secretly. So force does not have much value in the issue of beliefs.
Communism suppressed all religions for decades. But today Russia is deepily religious.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->We need to use our brain to find out what is the divine force behind this universe?
Who/what/where is this force?
We need to find out what is the true nature of God.
<b>
Where do you think you are going to go after you die?
You think you are going to disappear into thin air?
</b>
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If we need to find out all these, religion does not have any bearing on anybody's life. People will find out truth some day.
<!--QuoteBegin-paulose+Jul 23 2006, 12:31 PM-->QUOTE(paulose @ Jul 23 2006, 12:31 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ben Ami had pointed out the number of people murdered by Christians. If you search Mahabharatha you can find even alarming number of people killed. It is said that Krishna waged 17 wars with Jarasandha with 23 akshauhinis of military. I know that you are aware of how much an akshaunhini is made of. All those fighters were killed. And you add the inumerable civilians killed in those wars. The Mahabharatha war was waged with 18 aksahuhinis. All of them except seven were killed. These are a few accounts from just two wars. If you look into all Hindu scriptures, they are full of such accounts.
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but wasnt the mahabrarat and ramayan all fictional. ergo krishna and rama??
as your your attempt to defent the goan inquisition - all i can say is that a traitor and blinded by religion to such an extent, that when your religion carries out the most barbarous (by their own admission) of all inquisitions on your countrymen, you still choose to put them off the hook. and the less said of christian attrocities in the new world and ex-colonised world, the better. the people of the church are the scum of the world. i would much rather have preferred to see all the god-damned spaniards dead and decaying than the great inca, maya and aztec civilzations (and the scores fo amerindian tribes) wiped out.
07-23-2006, 06:55 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-23-2006, 06:57 PM by agnivayu.)
<!--QuoteBegin-paulose+Jul 23 2006, 12:31 PM-->QUOTE(paulose @ Jul 23 2006, 12:31 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->There can be any number of stories about any thing. I never denied that Christians commited atrocities in India and all over the world. Defenitely there were atrocities.
Asking residents about crimes and atrocities has the similar meaning anywhere. If you ask dalits , they can also say a lot of stories about upper caste atrocities on them all over India. There may be any number of books on that as well. Committing atrocities in human beings is not a reserved entity for a particular religion.
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You are right, Christians did commit many atrocities.
What the heck is an upper caste ?, some guy few decades ago drafts a schedule and puts Jati's/ Clans randomly into categories as upper / lower caste. Many people considered upper caste as Francois Gautier the French Christian Journalist pointed out have a higher poverty rate than many so called lower caste. Many of the atrocities commited on Dalits are commited by other local ethnic groups or other Dalits. What do local ethnic tensions have to do with Hinduism ?
Your Indian Christian buddies have 2 lines to enter a church depending on caste. Ever tried to fix that ?
The word caste is actually from your friends the Portuguese, it refers to the racial hybrid hierarchy that they created in Latin America. Here is a good website in case you are interested:
http://www.zonalatina.com/Zldata55.htm
Paul,
Your piercing logic dazzles me.
Where do we go from here? let's us not waste any more time, let's get this over with. Can't wait to see what you actually want to say, obviously you have profound and enlightened words and wisdom you want to share with gentiles. Please get it over with.
<!--emo&:guitar--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-paulose+Jul 23 2006, 03:01 AM-->QUOTE(paulose @ Jul 23 2006, 03:01 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ben Ami had pointed out the number of people murdered by Christians. If you search Mahabharatha you can find even alarming number of people killed. It is said that Krishna waged 17 wars with Jarasandha with 23 akshauhinis of military. I know that you are aware of how much an akshaunhini is made of. All those fighters were killed. And you add the inumerable civilians killed in those wars. The Mahabharatha war was waged with 18 aksahuhinis. All of them except seven were killed. These are a few accounts from just two wars. If you look into all Hindu scriptures, they are full of such accounts.
So pointing finger to a particular religion is not a winning factor in this.
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So Paul, you are comparing the massacre of innocents by Christians and muslims to deaths in wars (fictional wars as per you!), that unarmed women and children dying is same as armed soldiers dying on the battlefield. You have to bring up mythological wars to show killing by hindus, as against clear-cut massacres in crusades by christians and you say "pointing finger to a particular religion is not a winning factor in this". Do you see the how ridiculous your argument is? <!--emo& --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Paul,
You transformation from
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->No Hindu was ever punished in the inquisition.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
to
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> I never denied that Christians commited atrocities in India and all over the world. Defenitely there were atrocities.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
was pretty darned quick and remarkable. Nevertheless, it's a good start.
You ought to take this line of reasoning to any Jewish site and test it out about their holocaust and see how long you last there.
On rest, others have answered and there's data going back to 6 different versions of this thread with over a thousand posts.
Start from there and we can discuss.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no historical records about Rama or Krishna. That belief is based on two books, Ramayana and Mahabharatha.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are clear records for Rama & Krishna.
There are entire communities who are descended from them.
Even if they both are myths, what do I care?
I care about the absolute truth.
Long before Rama or Krishna, Manu declared that Brahman is the absolute truth.
Manu has stated that even before the universe was created Brahman was the absolute truth.
Where was this Jesus Christ at that time?
Hatching eggs?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Like that Bible is also a book for Christians. Based on that they believe in their God.
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No it is not. The Bible is the book of the Jews.
Christians have taken their book and added all kinds of nonsense to it.
There is even a genealogical tree for Jesus claiming he was a direct descendent of Abraham. Now Orthodox Jews don't accept this. So we know this is a fraud.
This is the reason that Christians have been trying to wipe out the Jews, so all their nonsense can be passed for truth.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If you go through Christianity's history, you can see many refferences of people who have seen Jesus Christ and other saints.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What references?
Did you go through http://www.jesusneverexisted.com?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->There are many pilgrim centres where these saints and God appeared. There are a few in India as well.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No doubt that men all over the world must have seen God.
India does not hold any monopoly over God.
God is not the private property of the Hindus.
I am talking about Jesus not God.
I am saying that Jesus is a fictional character.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->There a re a lot of people al over the world who perform miracles. Do you believe all those are saints?
Do you know anybody personally who has seen God? If yogis can do miracles, why donot you become a Yogi and save this world from bogus religions?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't believe in every saint.
Some of the miracles are true, some are false.
We need to use our brain to find out what is true and what is false.
I don't know anyone personally who has seen God.
I am trying to investigate the truth about God and trying to see this being for myself. Why don't you also start investigating the truth?
Don't you think this is relevant to your life?
I don't need to "save the world". This is an Abrahamic concept.
If there is a God, it can take care of the world. Why should I bother?
My job is to find find whether I exist after I die or not.
If I will exist then in what format will I exist?
This I need to find out.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I never contended on the issue of rebirth and reincarnations. So this sounds irrelevant for me.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it is. If re-incarnation is true than it implies that I exist after I die.
This is a great consolation for me. It removes the fear of death.
I feel very happy.
Every man deep inside would like to be immortal. Wouldn't you agree?
If you had a choice would you not prefer to live for ever?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am totally clueless about this point. I never claimed any religion be true or any other as bogus. These are personal beliefs. Hindus belive that Hindusim is the true one and others are bogus. Similarly others believe that Hindusim is bogus. Strictly personal.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do I care what people believe in?
I want to know what is the absolute truth.
Since when did truth become a personal thing?
Either something is true or it is false regardless of how dear that belief is to me.
There is no such thing as Hinduism.
We are forced to use the word now to distinguish ourselves from the moronic cults that have come up in the last 2000 years.
First you say that no religion is true.
Then you get very touchy when I prove that Jesus never exsited.
Why?
What does Jesus have to do with you?
If he never existed why are so bothered?
<b>
Either the atheists are correct and we will not exist after we die.
Or we are immortal souls who were never created and will not be destroyed.
</b>
Either case why do I need a fictional character called Jesus to "save" me?
If he is that important than what about Superman or Spiderman or Obi Wan Kenobi. Maybe they can save me too?
If there is a son (Jesus), there must be a father also, so who your daddy ?
<!--QuoteBegin-sankara+Jul 23 2006, 12:57 AM-->QUOTE(sankara @ Jul 23 2006, 12:57 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-annamma+Jul 22 2006, 04:30 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(annamma @ Jul 22 2006, 04:30 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> I think all of us have sinned, though; Hindus , Muslims and Christians [right][snapback]54314[/snapback][/right]
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In christianity, everyone is born a sinner, until he or she is saved through christ.
Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, etc., do not hold the concept of man being born a sinner. On the contrary, these faiths hold the view that all souls that take human birth are essentially good, and that our actions exerted through free will during the life-time will either bring us closer to the divine or take us away from the path of divinity.
It is definitely more appealing to a human being to believe in the inherent goodness of man, than to condemn him as a born sinner. Isn't it more lovelier to be looked upon as a divine being than as a sinner? This may explain the inherent appeal and attractiveness of Hinduism to many people, including westerners, who are tired of being constantly told that they are 'born sinners,' 'once a sinner, always a sinner,' and that they would need a fixed, non-negotiable entity called 'christ' to deliver them from their sins. How sad and depressing is a 'religion' that constantly derides a human being as a sinner.
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Yes, i know, that is a difference between religions.
But, if we are arguing the case, I'd prefer to be realistic. I agree that its more appealing to see ourselves as divine!! But how do we excuse our shortcomings and tendency to be mean, and cruel and angry at the drop of a hat...that cannot be divine, sadly! Haven't we just discussed how people from every religious background have hated, killed, persecuted and been perpetrators of violence and abuse? Which of us has not had "un-lovely" thoughts or done un-lovely actions?
But you have also not got the whole picture of Christianity. It doesn't "constantly deride humans as sinners"; it accepts the reality of our tendency to sin; but offers us a way out. In Christ, our punishment for sin and our tendency to sin both are dealt with, and we have the hope/ promise of becoming more like God in love and goodness. IMO, it is the most realistic and yet the most positive belief system, which is why I am a Christian. But <shrug> thats each person's choice.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Xtian's view the region from North Africa across Asia as the "belt of resistance", and just like Islam want everybody to submit to their jealous god.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well discussing this is where my posts were going, too.
Yes, I will agree with you that Christians want to tell everyone about jesus, and yes, Christians would be happy if everyone was to follow Jesus, and yes, I am sure you can find literature that talks of the resistant areas to evangelism and all that sort of thing....but that still does not tell you the motivation behind all these efforts. In my honest and humble opinion, the motivation is not selfish or to add numbers for self-gratification, but because most Christians honestly think that knowing about Jesus and the salvation he offers to all people is something everyone deserves to know, and decide for themselves (whichever way they decide). Its a job we have to do for others' good, not our own. Unfortunately, the job gets very complicated because there are always some few nutcase extremist Christians (who don't really understand God at all) who go and say stupid things, or do stupid things or are insensitive and so on. It makes the job of others so much more difficult.
I can only say sorry, for these mistakes on our part; and plead with you people to realise that there is no mysterious and devious secret agenda Christians have for world government and taking over others communities and what not. Thats all a reaction on your part. I told you, most Christians are too busy struggling with day-to-day issues of living and working to be bothered about world dominance. ;-)
Objectively speaking, i agree there is a possibility that we may just be wrong in elevating Jesus so much, and wanting to share about him to others; many of you think so, at all events; but the motivation is only that. Can't you just humour the missionaries; listen to what they have to say, and then tell them, "No, thanks", if you think its all rubbish. Something like the endless calls I get offering me house/ cars/ persoanl loans from HDFC/ ICICI/ Std Chartered and so on!! I just listen briefly, then say 'No, thanks, I'm not interested!" They can't force me to take their loan, so while it may be a mild inconvenience, its okay, no big deal. And you never know, someday I may just take a housing loan!!
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In my honest and humble opinion, the motivation is not selfish or to add numbers for self-gratification, but because most Christians honestly think that knowing about Jesus and the salvation he offers to all people is something everyone deserves to know, and decide for themselves (whichever way they decide). Its a job we have to do for others' good, not our own.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is always about vindication, always about self-gratification. Yes, of course, you are doing it for what you perceive to be others' good as well.
Most <b>missionaries and religious lay christians</b> think that their "Son of God" alone has the access to God, and that all other forms of belief are variants of Satanism and Demonic cultism. They also believe that all idolatry is false belief, which must be eradicated.
Now, lay christians may not live their lives plotting for the eradication of native religions, but the missionary organizations do. That is their raison d'etre. Lay christians finance them mostly on the basis of that doctrine, and lay christians are recruited to them mostly on the basis of that doctrine.
The missionaries may be disrespectful or respectful to the heathen, but <b>the doctrine underlying their beliefs compels them to the same end, a need to convert the heathen for his own good</b>. And, because their doctrine is so intolerant, all respect or disrespect is merely a tactical ploy. In fact, because you perceive to be doing it for others' good, almost any tactic is justified, be it "sensitivity", "insensitivity", "breaking the idols", claiming to be victims, martyrdom, deception, bribery, social coercion, even a threat of death or ostracism, anything goes. Missionaries have a pretty instrumental view of the means, because they think the ends are so just.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Unfortunately, the job gets very complicated because there are always some few nutcase extremist Christians (who don't really understand God at all) who go and say stupid things, or do stupid things or are insensitive and so on. It makes the job of others so much more difficult.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But, you must concede, neither do the mainstream christians. Among christians, no one knows God, really. All you know is the "Christ" and the book. No christian ever claims to have seen or experienced God, they only have seen or experienced "Christ".
So, in this situation how is an extremist christian different from a moderate "mainstream" christian? It is only in how you interpret the book. I submit, that the nutcase extremist christian may not understand God, but he understands "Christ" and the "book" as well as anyone else.
None of you, lay or missionary, can rebut the fundamental doctrine, the nonsense about "No one comes to my Father except through Me". Uttering "stupid" and "insensitive" things is a tactic, just like being "sensitive". Your "Christ" cannot coexist with my God.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->They also believe that all idolatry is false belief, which must be eradicated.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They should start from church, which contains idols everywhere.
<!--QuoteBegin-annamma+Jul 23 2006, 02:24 PM-->QUOTE(annamma @ Jul 23 2006, 02:24 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Xtian's view the region from North Africa across Asia as the "belt of resistance", and just like Islam want everybody to submit to their jealous god.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well discussing this is where my posts were going, too.
I can only say sorry, for these mistakes on our part; and plead with you people to realise that there is no mysterious and devious secret agenda Christians have for world government and taking over others communities and what not. Thats all a reaction on your part. I told you, most Christians are too busy struggling with day-to-day issues of living and working to be bothered about world dominance. ;-)
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Take a look at this website www.joshuaproject.net
I love the excel sheet about the unreached people (click on link "download")
Quote:Paulose,
Your ignorance and twisting of historical and present facts to suit your lies is amazing.
Aryawan,
I did not twist any historical fact nor did I tell any lies. I commented on a topic in this forum.
Quote:To begin with, FYI India has a Muslim president, a Sikh Prime Minister and A Catholic chief of the ruling political party. Now it is your turn to show me a single Christian Majority country with a Muslim or a Hindu at such a top level position.
What is great in that. K R Narayanan deserved a second term. But it was denied for him by BJP. Instead elected a Muslim. Sikh PM was a default appointment by proxy. Catholic became cheif of ruling party just because she was married to the Nehru family. Any Muslim, Sikh, or Dalit with a Gandhi tail may become the chief of Congress party. If Sonia was made PM it could have been a great thing, since she was only a naturalised Indian. But BJP prevented that. Whether Christian country does that is immeterial. That is greatness of India and the secular nature of India.
Quote:Simple hearted natives welcoming crooked and cunning Europeans only to find themselves being turned in to slaves in their very homes.
Christianity was used as a guise to colonize and enslave so called savage natives who many times were much more cultured and advanced than the invaders themselves.
This is absolutely true. Europeans used Christianity to colonise world. If they were Hindus, Mulims or Parsees, they could have done the same. That is not fault of Christianity. Majority of westerners are not practicing Christians any more. Still they dominate world.
Quote:While Jesus may have stood for peace and love, but Christianity as it stands today, has its roots in violence and bloodshed without which it would not have spread so far in numbers as bragged by you. The very fact that Jews have been persecuted for over 2000 years for fraudulent reasons by Christians is enough to debunk your attempts at covering the crimes committed in the name of religion.
Even if what you say is true, Christianity is the largest religion in the world. Bloodshed is associated with Hinduism as well. I had wrote in another post about Hindus killed in 1000s of wars fought by Hindus before the appearance of Christianity.
Quote:Speaking of Mexico, till date it is being ruled by an elite group of Reales or Spanish & Other European descendants who control most of its assets and businesses. While poor natives or the mixed ones are only too happy to cross over to USA to work as casual labourers in cities of the United States. The rise of Chiapa Indians in South of Mexico began the downfall of longest ruling Real political party 'PRI' in Mexico. The fact is that till today the natives of Latin Amercia live on the fringes of the society whose status is hundred times worse than so called lower castes of India. Lower castes in India are forcefully represented in the Indian Parliament. Whereas, in country after country in Latin America, natives are rising against the various forms of apartheid being practised by the Ruling European descendants. Latest to fall in line is Bolivia, where for the first time a native Indian has become the President of the country. The discontent in most of the Latin American countries is coming to the surface.
Would you care to enlighten me???
Yes I agree with you. But they cross over to USA which is also Christian country. Why they did not take pain to come over to a Hindu country India or an Islamic country Saudi Arabia?
Quote:Why Christianity a religion of peace failed to stop world wars faught mostly among the Christian nations?
This question is absurd. I can ask you even more absurd questions. Ancient India had only Hindusim as a religion. But there were inumerable wars fought between Hindu rulers. Why Hinduism could not prevent such wars? Asking such questions are a stupid as asking why Sun rises in east. History of mankind is that of war as well. Even if Christianity was not there still there could have been wars.
Quote:We in India recognise Christianity as a religion and there are churches in the most Indian cities including Hindu's holiest sites like Tirupati. Would you allow Hindus to build a temple in the Vatican city?
I am not the owner of Vatican. So I can not answer that question. India allows that because India is a secular country. If it was something like a theocracy as Saudi Arabia we could not have imagined that.
Quote:Why there are so called so many divisions in your peaceful religion sometimes appearing much worse than our caste systems so much so that one group tried to annihilate other groups historically i.e. Catholics vs Orthodox vs Protestants vs .........
All those divisions are purely for leadership issues. They fight in between for superiority. But in a Catholic country, Orthodox are never forbidden to enter a church or not allowed to use public roads. In that instance, caste system is worse than Christian sects. And sects in Christianity is not any division of labour. They are separate religions with separeate rules and regulations.
Quote:We Hindus are ready to accept the divinity of Jesus (but not Christianity as a religion). Would you accept our thousands of saints and sages who were as enlightened if not more than Jesus? Would you accept our form of worship and bow before our Gods and Goddesses?
If you accept divinity of Jesus it very good. That does not mean that Christians should accept Hindu saints. This is not a barter system. These are concerned with beliefs. Hinduism does allow wroship of anything. But Christianity does not allow that. That is a very fundamental difference. If all can accept other's Gods, there need not be any religions at all. Christians cannot accept Hindu Gods. That is why they are a separate religion.
Quote:Recently, Orthodox Russia didn't allow Iskcon to built the sole Hindu temple in the city of Moscow. Is this the kind of tolerance you guys preach?
What Russian Orthodox church did was wrong. The same church did not allow the late Pope to come to Russia. Bizare people will be there all over the world.
Quote:What is the logic behing condemning the whole mankind forever for somebody eating a fruit?
Belief in God, religion and myths about religion have no logic at all. The fruit eating is just a metaphor that creation defied creator. That message was conveyed through a story. It has that much importance only. Defying creator is a sin according to Christian belief. That need not be true in other beliefs.
Such stories are there in all religions.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->K R Narayanan deserved a second term. But it was denied for him by BJP. Instead elected a Muslim.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And why did he 'deserve' second term? BJP didn't fire Narayanan, just that his term was over and they thought Abdul Kalam was and is a better man. Can we leave it at that should we accept that Narayanan was better because Paulose here says so (without providing any info to back it up)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->That is greatness of India and the secular nature of India.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems like you are talking from both sides of your mouth, didn't you just state that BJP denied Narayanan second term?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Whether Christian country does that is immeterial.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? Every Christina country be it US, UK, France, Germany has yet to appoint or elect a single minority to it's highest office and still around to offer gratutious unsolicited advise on how India should behave around?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Europeans used Christianity to colonise world. If they were Hindus, Mulims or Parsees, they could have done the same. That is not fault of Christianity<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Parsees and Hindus have not colonized anyone have they? Or your position is that colonization is just an European trait?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I had wrote in another post about Hindus killed in 1000s of wars fought by Hindus before the appearance of Christianity<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, there were wars when there were no other religions around right? So Hindus didn't impose religious wars stating my God's is bigger than yours. All started after Christianity and Islam appeared. Here I have to agree with you.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->History of mankind is that of war as well. Even if Christianity was not there still there could have been wars.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perfectly right. But Christanity provided the right impetus to go on war since God or Pope said so. Religious wars started only with advent of Christanity. So did preadotry conversion practices, inquistions and desire to 'save' everyone else in the world by killing him if he didn't accept Christ as a savior.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Belief in God, religion and myths about religion have no logic at all. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. But whenever convenient, you'll not loose a moment to use religion to deride someone elses religion or use your own to steal land/property for others. For example: crusades in Middle East and Europe, colonization of Latin America, Asia and Africa 16th century onwards. These days it's war by other means - covert missionary activities coupled with "human rights" organizations.
And this is not the story of all religions. Christians or those who use Christanity take the cake here.
<!--QuoteBegin-agnivayu+Jul 23 2006, 10:05 PM-->QUOTE(agnivayu @ Jul 23 2006, 10:05 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->If there is a son (Jesus), there must be a father also, so who your daddy ?
[right][snapback]54410[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Per the Torah, a Roman soldier called Panthera
BTW, Panthera is more real and better documented than Jesus,
Archeologists have uncovered Panthera's grave in Germany
07-24-2006, 07:55 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2006, 07:55 AM by dhu.)
All converts newly burdened as apologists for the criminal church should read Dr. Koenraad Elst's online book: http://www.voiceofdharma.org/books/pp/
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.voiceofdharma.org/books/pp/ch3.htm
Jesus had, on all hands, a problem with the identity of his father. In the apocrypha, he is called âson of a whoreâ.<b> According to the Jewish tradition, he was the son of the Roman soldier Pandera and the local girl Miriam (Mary), the hairdresser. </b><b>The existence of a Roman soldier with that name has actually been verified. </b>A few years after the start of the Christian Era, he was transferred to the legion in Germany, where a grave bearing his name has been found: perhaps the only left-over of the Holy Family. At any rate, the Gospel narrative is explicit enough that Jesusâ conception was a matter of scandal: his social father Joseph wanted to break off his engagement with Mary when he found she was pregnant. In a village, such a circumstance could not possibly be kept secret from the child Jesus. In the playground he must have been reminded often enough of being an illegitimate child.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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