Sanskrit - 2

[Bharatvarsh]

Previous thread on Sanskrit -1 <b>Link</b>

Well atleast he is not a fool who thinks that Ramayan and Mahabharat are Sanskrit pronounciations.

[acharya]

<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Jul 21 2006, 05:36 PM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Jul 21 2006, 05:36 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
<span style='color:red'>
You also blindly believe S Indian languages are separate from N Indian ones, only because for the last 2 centuries or so the west has created the IE framework construct that groups N Indian (Indo-Aryan) as separate from 'Dravidian'. Until then, no one knew this. The idea only took root when they created it.</span>
I am neither impressed nor convinced by the IE framework; but when discussing aspects within it, at least I stick to their rules (like 'there is no Indo-Aryan ethnic group'). You, having accepted it so wholeheartedly, might at least do the same.

You've also internalised every construct and myth they have fed you, until you can imagine no world outside of it (even when you try to rebel against it as with your partial rejection of the AIT, you come no further than your own 'Indo-Aryan and Dravidian' one). To the point that you give no credit or credence to (or have no knowledge of) the understanding of India and Hinduism that was prevalent amongst Indians prior to the misinformation campaign.

This is your loss. You have imbibed all western indological (re-)constructs of what constitutes the fundamentals of India's Hindu civilisation. You're like their unknowing little helper, well-schooled in their massive miseducation programme and unwittingly furthering the miseducation.
[right][snapback]54301[/snapback][/right]
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This is the most important information every modern Indian has to understand with his English education. This indoctrination with false world view of Indian civilization which has been going on for the last 200 years with the Indian elite is spreading across the Indian masses in the last 30 years.

[Guest]

so a punjabi and a malayali and a munda are actually all the same people - never mind all the differences between their languages, features, complexion, gods, rituals, etc ??

one word answer - yes or no.


and no husky irrespective of the answer to my question it would be insane to describe a tamilian as an indo-aryan or a gujrati as a dravidian. neither by ethnicity, and even less by languistic category.

[Guest]

Post 273:<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->not a fool<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am moving up in the world!!! <!--emo&:clapping--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/clap.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='clap.gif' /><!--endemo--> (That's one thing ticked off my list. I can now finally move on to my next step: world domination.... <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> )


Regarding the following statement in post 275:<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->insane to describe a tamilian as an indo-aryan or a gujrati as a dravidian. neither by ethnicity, and even less by languistic category<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->This argument is useful for illustrative purposes.
When Indians are faced with such an argument they must note that it rests on the <i>assumption</i> of the IE worldview. It is from the IE worldview that the terms Indo-Aryan and Dravidian arose, and they apply only within the IE worldview.

But the matter as it stands is moot for those that do not subscribe to the IE view and the argument itself becomes a non-argument since the base assumption (the existence of IE and hence the acceptance of the IA-D dichotomy) is not shared.
I don't describe gujaratis or tamils or any other Indians with either of the terms Indo-Aryan or Dravidian; and I don't speak of languages as IA or D outside of the IE-related conversations on this forum (where the topic forces me to use them) - precisely because the basic premise doesn't take with me.

The cleverest and perhaps most dangerous thing that the IE worldview has done is this: they've made it a choice between Indo-Aryan and Dravidian; they've sneakily excised a third tickbox for 'Indian'. IE has essentially forced its base assumption on people and is now succeeding in making the unthinking choose one or other of their two constructs.
<b>This is language control</b> and it's being imposed on us here.

Other examples of language control that is being exercised on Indians today include the imposition of terms such as caste, South Asia, Dalit.

I am boycotting all of this now. The whole thing is that the west is forcing us to play the game. But just don't play it.

IE is nothing more than an assumption and a blind belief in it (although indologists question other parts of their framework, they never question their basic premise). It's built on (as mentioned by others in this thread) the idea that Europeans initially believed that as per the Bible, they and their language descended from the Jews. They were fervently convinced of this for a long time. But since they hated the Jews (because of the usual Christian nonsense), they desperately sought their origins elsewhere. They imagined up a whole different origin for themselves (and involved the poor ancient Greeks and Romans in everything, including unrelated matters), then found India and Samskritam - and realised they liked it better than their old worldview. So they dumped their whole biblical baggage to create a new one where they come up on top, and then forced it on us.

They <i>invented</i> the Aryans whom no one had heard of and of whom there is no evidence. (There is no historical marker anywhere in the world that states "here lie the Aryans"; there's only records of items and cultures that they find flattering enough to consider as 'Aryan'.)
The AIT was where their ancestors got to be some super-people who brought civilisation everywhere.
Then they thought that these Aryans probably would have had an original homeland, and hence was born the Aryan urheimat idea. And so they started frantically looking for the homeland which they assumed that the supposed Aryans (whom they'd invented) would have had. Thereafter they were also looking to rebuild the 'PIE' supposedly spoken by the supposed Aryans in their supposed Urheimat. If only the Fates (in the Greek sense) would have let them keep on wasting their time this way and stop bothering others. But no, their fetish has affected the view of world history and the histories, societies and politics of many countries.

Their AIT hinged on their methods of classifying languages. Their linguistics rules appear to be non-deterministic and I have serious suspicions that these rules are influenced by their biases in favour of their belief in Aryans. And since no one had a time machine to go back in time and check on the facts, they felt secure in their imperialistic position from where they got to dictate matters.

Coming to today, this new breed of believers got a bit more sophisticated: along with a new name (IE) and whole 'sciences' established to research into the Oryans, PIE and PIE Urheimat, they've also managed to get some Indians and others to swallow their whole premise, hook, line and sinker.
The present-day findings in genetics and Indian archaeology and that of the Tarim Basin did put a damper on things, but still - they still have their central linguistic model which by its very nature of non-determinism cannot be disproved (or proved). Because it's not very scientific, it does not lend itself to scientific scrutiny. That's probably the only reason why the AIT theory, which today survives partially as the IE framework, still holds (which in turn is trying to revive a mutated form of the AIT).

- No invasion, no migration, no influx of Oryans into India. No significant C Asian genetic input (such as it is could merely be from Shaka time, or it could be counter-indicative: what if a few small tribes of Indians settled all of W Asia and C Asia - this is also supported by the fact that the Tarim Basin dwellers were specifically <i>not</i> European but are the same as IVC instead).
- Therefore the method by which they'd imagined Indo-Aryan (and so Samskritam) was introduced into India has fallen through.
- Therefore the very nature of the <i>link</i> of Samskritam and European languages has to be re-investigated (but indologists don't do that). Possibilities for the link, as stated by others elsewhere on this forum, include a much earlier Indian contact with Europe, as opposed to the late 'first contact' Greece made with India.
The nature of the relation between Samskritam and ancient Avestan is not a mystery, of course, as our religious scriptures already clearly show how it came about.

Logically speaking, the rejection of the scenario (related to the AIT/AMT) where Caucasian IE-speakers came to India, should have made indologists take another look at their basic premise and the nature of the linguistic connections. But do the Indologists question their linguistic model, their central assumptions of Oryans, PIE and Urheimat? Oh no. Because their linguistic rules (which were themselves created by a belief in the AIT) says that PIE exists.
Therefore, they're either too conceited ('how can we possibly be wrong?') or too lazy ('200 yrs of 'scholarship' down the drain!') to bother. Or they're motivated by something else entirely - just like they were during the British Empire.

[acharya]

<span style='color:red'>
The cleverest and perhaps most dangerous thing that the IE worldview has done is this: they've made it a choice between Indo-Aryan and Dravidian; they've sneakily exercised a third tickbox for 'Indian'.

IE has essentially forced its base assumption on people and is now succeeding in making the unthinking choose one or other of their two constructs.

This is language control and it's being imposed on us(INDIANS/HINDUS) here.

Other examples of language control that is being exercised on Indians today include the imposition of terms such as caste, South Asia, Dalit.</span>

[acharya]

<span style='color:red'>Their AIT hinged on their methods of classifying languages. Their linguistics rules appear to be non-deterministic and I have serious suspicions that these rules are influenced by their biases in favour of their belief in Aryans. And since no one had a time machine to go back in time and check on the facts, they felt secure in their imperialistic position from where they got to dictate matters.

Coming to today, this new breed of believers got a bit more sophisticated: along with a new name (IE) and whole 'sciences' established to research into the Oryans, PIE and PIE Urheimat, they've also managed to get some Indians and others to swallow their whole premise, hook, line and sinker.
The present-day findings in genetics and Indian archaeology and that of the Tarim Basin did put a damper on things, but still - they still have their central linguistic model which by its very nature of non-determinism cannot be disproved (or proved). Because it's not very scientific, it does not lend itself to scientific scrutiny. That's probably the only reason why the AIT theory, which today survives partially as the IE framework, still holds (which in turn is trying to revive a mutated form of the AIT).
</span>

[Guest]

Crossposting Mudy's post from the thread Radicalisation Of Indian Muslims, Indian muslim Jihadism:
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Jul 21 2006, 05:37 AM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Jul 21 2006, 05:37 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Islamic terrorists attacked Sanskrit college</b>
7/19/2006 4:58:21 AM  HK
Kaladi: Islamic NDF terrorists attacked the students in <b>Sri Sankara Sanskrit college</b> in Kalady. They unleashed terror in the college, attacked students, destroyed furnitures and window panes and doors were broken  in the classroom.

The attack was done <b>combinely by NDF terrorist and their students wing Campus Front</b>. Police have arrested Abdul Rahman, Anthuru, Bava, Siraj, Aneesh Marakkar, Aboobacker, Anoop Nasser, Nibas and Yuraij in connection with the attack

This is the one and only centre for  learning Sanskrit in the birth place of Sri Sankaracharya had now become the hotbed of Islamic terrorists. These <b>terrorists were promoted in the college by SFI, Students wing of Marxist</b> and the yesterday's attack was due to some indifference between Campus Front and their promoters in SFI.

This Sanskrit college was inaugurated by Shri Agamananda Swamikal and Sringeri Saradapeetham Sankaracharya bharathi theertha swamikal is the trust member at present.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->[right][snapback]54224[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Western indologists are no doubt cheering.

[Guest]

Excellent website on Indic family of languages

[Guest]

#276
Husky,
Excellent summary.

[Guest]

http://sanskrit.safire.com/
Hindu site with Samskrit documents

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Excellent summary.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Cheers.

[Guest]

speaksanskrit

Watch Sholay dialogue and Aati Kya Khandala song in Samskrit <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

[Guest]

7) sanskritic/hindu influence has been exported out of india to places as far as ireland (druidism = poor man's hinduism), lithuania (their language is the most similar to sanskrit of all european languages), and europe in general. Also to middle east via the mittanis and hitties etc.


Lithuanian 70% sharing words whit sanskrite .?
Intersting .I was learning that thracian language is extremly related whit lithuanian but not so whit indo-iranian.I was beliving that thracian-lithuanian cognates was related whit a thracian migration in Lithuania.
The theory that IE languages develop by borowing not by a comon proto-IE have the same oldness as AIT. The first curent seem to dissapierd.
Druidism? Hinduism whitout philosophical sistem.Thats why is the poor man.

[Guest]

- http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?add=about&output=BO
Although the site is located in Germany, (I am not sure) but I think the people working on it are all Hindus from India.

- http://www.aa.tufs.ac.jp/~tjun/sktdic/
This appears to be a simple Samskritam-to-English dictionary
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This is a Web Sanskrit Dictionary based on "The Practical Sanskrit-English Dictionary'' of Vaman Shivaram Apte.
And it contains only the first word (or phrase in some case) of each numbered meaning. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- http://www.samskrita-bharati.org/newsite/index.php
Apologies for if this site has already been suggested. It's got a beautiful picture of the great Nataraja on the main page.

[Hauma Hamiddha]

"Tantric" upaniShad-s and their role in Hindu thought
The point of origin of the later sectarian upaniShads is unclear. It appears that the early shaiva-s and vaiShNava-s had begun the composing upaniShadic material in the latest phase of the vedic era. The oldest amongst these is the shaiva-leaning upaniShad- shvetAshvatara, which incorporates several verses from the shatarudriya of the kR^iShNa-yajurveda. The atharva-shiras and the nArAyaNa-valli seem to the next set of upaniShads composed by the shaivas and vaiShNavas respectively. The bahvR^icha upaniShad with a shrIkula orientation is of unclear provenance, eventhough its character suggests that it is definitely much later than the former upaniShads. Beyond these there are a series of "tantric" upaniShad-s that appear even later and their sole purpose appears to be expound particular tantric mantra-s.
Examples of these include:
1) avyakta and nR^isiMha-tApinI: expound the highest anuShTubh mantra of viShNu, the mantrarAja, which is described in the ahirbudhnya saMhitA of the pA~ncharAtra stream.

ugraM vIraM mahA-viShNuM jvalantaM sarvato-mukhaM|
nR^isimhaM bhIShaNam bhadraM mR^ityur mR^ityuM namAmy-ahaM ||
The latter upaniShad also gives the mantra of sudarshana: oM sahasrAra huM phaT | This is also expounded in the ahirbudhnya saMhitA and other pA~ncharAtra texts like lakShmI-tantra.
2) tripurA, tripurA-tApinI and devI: expounds the shrIvidyA mantras, especially those the kAdi mata and hAdi mata. The tripurA-tApinI gives the relationship between the savitrI and the pa~nchadashi of shrIvidyA. It also provides hints regarding the mantra forms other than those of kAma and lopAmudrA.
3) sarasvatI-rahasya: expounds on the bIja mantra-s of sarasvatI
4) gaNapati atharvashiras: expounds on the mUla mantra of vinAyaka: gaM gaNapataye namaH |
5) dattAtreya: expounds the dattAtreya mantras
6) hayagrIva: expounds several hayagrIva vidyAs.
7) garuDa: expounds the mahA-viSha-nivAraNa vidyA.
8) gopAla-tApinI: expounds the 18-syllabled gopijanavallabha mantra: klIM kR^iShNAya govindAya gopI-jana-vallabhAya svAhA. This mantra is expounded in the brahma saMhitA of the pA~ncharAtra stream.

The nR^isiMhatApini is commented upon by gauDapAda and sha~Nkara bhagavatpAda suggesting that examples of these tantric upaniShad-s were already in place by 600-700 CE. A simple analysis of these upaniShads reveal several important common features.

-They typically expound mantras that are also expounded independently in tantras such as pA~ncharAtra tantras, rudra tantras and shrIkula tantras. However, we do not find these tantras that discuss the same mantras citing the upaniShad-s or vice-versa. It almost appears as though they are two independent expositions of the mantra, though they have similarities in their explanations

-tantric upaniShads typically have a section asserting the primacy of the mantra (often calling in the source of the world, and the cause of siddhis and victory of the gods) they discuss, a philosophical section that typically imitates the classical vedic upaniShads in some form or the other, and many times a "many-one" saMbandha section. This many-one saMbandha identifies the deity, whose mantra under consideration, with large sections of the Hindu pantheon (see footnote 1 for a socio-historical discussion of this point). These saMbandhas follow a model that first appears in the non-tantric upaniShad atharva-shiras with the formula:
yo vai rudraH sa bhagavAn yash cha [deity name, e.g. skanda] tasmai vai namo-namaH |
shorter identifications are also seen in the parallel narAyaNa-valli: e.g. sa brahmaa sa shivaH sa hariH sendraH so.akSharaH paramaH svarAT |

-They may or may not directly incorporate a few vedic mantra-s from saMhita-s and may on several occasions bear the epithet tApinI (glowing?).

Some major questions are raised by these upaniShad-s. If the tantra-s associated with these traditions expound the same mantras, then why do these upaniShads do the same. The tantras appear to seek no vedic precedence for their mantra, and these tantric upaniShads do not really acknowledge the source tantra-s but directly mirror their vedic prototypes. As we know the major tantric traditions are not non-dvija and had their own validity of independent standing amongst dvijas. Also the canonical shruti remained un-altered despite the composition of these obviously later tantric upaniShads. The presence of such texts relatively early as suggested by sha~nkara and gauDapAda's citation of nR^isimha-tApinI, suggests that they developed in parallel with the tantra-s of the school. So it is our proposition (unlike what has been commonly proposed by secular scholars) these tantric upaniShad-s were not composed merely to give a shruti-authority for the tantric traditions. Instead their role was to provide the user of the mantra with: 1) saMbandha-s that need to be understood so that the mantra assumes a "global" or universal perspective by assuming the essences of all the deities or the universe with which it is identified. 2) identification of the mantra gyANa ("knowledge") with the most fundamental or root aspects of the outer universe (and often thereby its inner reflection in the sAdhaka). These connections provided to the mantra allow its "full expression" for the sAdhaka within the technical frame of prayoga (See footnote 2 for the historical aspects of this feature).

(nR^isiMha-tApinI and avyakta to be considered later)


Footnotes
Footnote 1) An important mistake made by Western and their fellow-travelling Hindu scholars is to equate the many-one saMbhandhas seen in several Hindu sectarian traditions as a tendency for monotheism. In fact nothing can be farther from the truth, in fact all these sectarian Hindu streams are as polytheisitic as the formal vedic/smArta stream. In making these identifications they are not even subsuming the many deities of the pantheon, they fully accept their functional differentiation and specific roles in the "world of the gods". By establishing the many-one saMbandha they are seeing their root sectarian deity and/or his mantra/s generating the diversity of the "world of the gods" as emanations or evolutes. This important point, was at the heart of the syncretic religious development in the late Hellenistic Greek world and the classical Roman empire. This resulted in establishment of saMbandhas with deities outside of the IE Greco-Roman tradition to include Egyptian and Middle Eastern deities. This tendency was also operational in the nAstIka matas of the Hindus that spread over Eurasia. An early mechanism of saMbandha, which was prevalent throughout the old heathen world, but persistant in Hindus throughout their history was the macranthropic motif. It is in this important point they differ from the Abrahamistic monotheisms, that exclude and deny the very existence all other deities of the "world of the gods" with extreme vehemence. Hindus and other heathens mistakenly try to view monotheism through their lens of "many-one" saMbandha and are unable to understand their outright exclusion by the monotheist.

Footnote 2) Much of Eurasiatic textual tradition is intentionally correlative. The establishment of saMbandhas is the process by the essential essence (a tautology) of older layers of the tradition are incorporated into the new development. In the heathen West a process very similar to the emergence of the tantric upaniShads happened in the dying stages of the Macedonian successor states and the rise of the Roman empire. This was the Neo-Platonic revolution. The correlative process established saMbandha-s between the Platonic philosophy and the newer "mystery" religion and associated rituals. Thus, we have a Neo-Platonic philosophical core with elements very like vedAnta around, a shell of rituals similar to the tantras in height of the Roman empire.

[acharya]

Sanskrit course via distance education

Staff Correspondent

# University has given "in principle" approval
# The post-graduate course will be for two years

MANGALORE: Composite Board of Studies in Sanskrit, Mangalore University, has submitted a proposal to the university to offer a post-graduate course and a diploma course in Applied Sanskrit through the university's Directorate of Distance Education, according to G. N. Bhat, chairman, Composite Board of Studies in Sanskrit. Speaking at a function organised to inaugurate Dakshina Kannada and Udupi district units of Swadeshi Vignana Andolana he said the Vice-Chancellor of the university had given them an "in principle" approval to offer the course under distance education.

He said that the post-graduate course would be for two years and diploma for one year.

[acharya]

History of the Muktabodha Institute

The Muktabodha Institute was founded in 1997 by Gurumayi Chidvilasananda, the spiritual head of the path of Siddha Yoga meditation.

The Institute’s origins are found in the educational vision contained in the teachings of Gurumayi’s guru, Swami Muktananda (1908-1982), who introduced the path of Siddha Yoga to the West.

This vision began to develop into well-defined academic projects in the late ‘80s. Later, as the scope of the work expanded, the Muktabodha Institute was created as an independent educational trust in India and as a non-profit educational organization in the United States

Given its origins and focus, it is appropriate that the Muktabodha Institute is engaged in exploring the relationship between analytic scholarship and the experiential knowledge of the religious practitioner.

The premise that there is a powerful synergy between them is the basis for the development of a new paradigm for the study and preservation of Indian religious thought.

The Institute supports this premise through its various project areas and also reflects this support through its chosen name: the Sanskrit term Muktabodha means “the wisdom of the liberated one” and refers to an experiential state of supreme freedom which is delineated in detail in the Indian scriptures.

Muktabodha's Project Areas

The Institute supports its chosen focus through the following project areas:

Promoting the training of young scholars through educational programs such as seminars and grants of financial assistance
Translating and publishing important Sanskrit texts, particularly in the Shaiva and Shakta tantric traditions
Preserving and making accessible rare manuscripts and texts, in particular through an on-line digital library
Creating and supporting vedashalas, or traditional schools of Vedic studies, in India


http://www.muktabodha.org/about.htm

[Guest]

Check page 191
West started learning Sanskrit in 18th century.

[Shambhu]

<!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
At my local Diwali Mela I went to the Hindu Students Council stall and bought a few Samskritam learning books...

[Guest]

<!--emo&:ind--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/india.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='india.gif' /><!--endemo--> Muslim girl tops Sanskrit PG exam
P K SURENDRAN
[ 6 Oct, 2006 0123hrs ISTTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]


RSS Feeds| SMS NEWS to 8888 for latest updates

NAVAIKULAM: At a time when inspiring lyrics like Vande Mataram are branded communal, a Muslim girl who opted for Sanskrit has topped the Kerala University MA (Sanskrit) exam in 2006.

Shajeena S notched up 79% and is the first Muslim topper in the university's history.

The 24-year-old is the second of three daughters of Shahul Hamid, a poor labourer from Navaikulam. She took up Sanskrit three years ago.

"She is a very bright and sincere student," says Shajeena's teacher R Nirmala. Did Shajeena confront any resistance from community leaders or from her parents?

"Not really," she says, adding, "my parents agreed when I told them I want to learn Sanskrit. When I topped the university exam, my ustad in the community asked for sweets."

Though some people ask her why she didn't take up Arabic for higher studies, she tells them that Sanskrit is the most apt language for Indians since most Indian languages are offshoots of Sanskrit.

"Besides, it also offers better job opportunities," she says. Shajeena recites Sanskrit slokas at home. "Nobody at home understands them though," she smiles.

"But they say it sounds melodious when intoned in a low pitch. The Sanskrit language is poetic. There is rhythm in every syllable."

She dreams of launching a Sanskrit publication, which can help Sanskrit lovers in India give vent to their creativity. She swears that she will teach her children this rich language.

"It's a shame this beautiful language is reduced to a Cinderella in her own land," she says.

[Shambhu]

<!--emo&:cool--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/specool.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='specool.gif' /><!--endemo-->

*Bow* to Shajeena...she has to be one of the wisest young Indians I have heard about...