Religion, Caste And Tribe Based Reservation - 4

10-25-2006, 08:57 PM

SC warns of âreverse discriminationâQUOTENew Delhi, October 25: The Supreme Court has held that the ceiling of 50 per cent was a necessary factor while extending the benefit of reservation or otherwise it would perpetuate âcasteismâ in the country and result in âreverse discrimination'.

"If the extent of reservation goes beyond cut-off point then it results in reverse discrimination. Anti-discrimination legislation has a tendency of pushing towards de facto reservation. Therefore, a numerical benchmark is the surest immunity against charges of discrimination," a five-judge constitution

Bench headed by Chief Justice Y K Sabharwal, said in a judgement which held that the creamy layer within the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes should be kept out of the benefit of quotas in government jobs and promotions.

Maintaining that though it was the discretion of the state government concerned to provide quota subject to the existence of "backwardness" and "inadequacy of representation" in public employment, the Bench said "reservation has to be used in a limited sense otherwise it will perpetuate casteism in the country".
...................

This is what we are screaming. India is heading for apartheid. It is a reverse discrimination.
Why these dumboos of India have selected amnesia? They have forgotten atrocities/butchery/barbarism of Muslims on Hindus, colonial Christianâs atrocities on Hindus, Princely estates kingâs abuse on subjects, Current politician only remember one and only one how to bash Brahmins. Brahmin who were never been ruler, never been with money, who were always first abused or slaughtered by any invading forces or missionaries or now a days jokers/politicians and casteist of India. They have been ethnic cleansed by many part of India and people from those states don't even acknowledge and claims it never happened even data tells otherwise.

Bharatvarsh · 10-25-2006, 09:12 PM

If reservation was to remedy past discrimination then why didn't Hindus get reservations since they were discriminated against by both Muslims and Christians whenever they ruled parts of India?

On the one hand they expect FC's to pay for what some of their ancestors did in the past but when it comes to Muslims and Christians, we are supposed to forget and forgive what happened in Goa and other areas ruled by them.

10-25-2006, 09:15 PM

As Ramadoss said, quota is a reality. This is the real India. Quota is here to stay. The only thing that needs to go away is the concept of "open" quotas. Let the cake get evenly divided. Shri Royburman and others like him should devise a good cost-effective survey method that can aid in fixing and changing quotas every year.

Creamy layer can be decided by the communities themselves. Who are we to tell the communities whether they are getting screwed by creamy layers within their community ?

**acharya** · (This post was last modified: 10-26-2006, 02:16 AM by acharya.)

QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Oct 25 2006, 03:45 AM)As Ramadoss said, quota is a reality. This is the real India. Quota is here to stay. The only thing that needs to go away is the concept of "open" quotas.Â
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The next step is increase the number of seats all round so that the general merit seat - all members who qualify get the seat irrespective of other quota seats. Hence students who qualify and cream of the society are never turned back.

10-27-2006, 08:55 AM

QUOTESC has the last word on 'rights' and basic structure of the Constitution
Mirrored at: http://kalyan96.googlepages.com/constitutionalright.doc
The Bench said courts must interpret the Constitution in a manner which would enable the citizens to enjoy the rights guaranteed by it in the fullest measure. It cited the example of Article 21 of the Constitution guaranteeing right to life.

"The expression 'life' in Article 21 does not connote merely physical or animal existence. The right to life includes right to live with dignity," said Justice Kapadia, who authored the unanimous judgment.

Culling out the essential features of various landmark judgments of the apex court, the Bench also laid down the standards for testing the validity of the amending powers of Parliament.

Parliament's amending power, in a given case, can be termed to have been exercised in breach of the constitutional provisions if it could be proved that a particular enactment has violated a principle that is intrinsically part of the basic structure of the Constitution, it said.

The apex court said, "In order to qualify as an essential feature, a principle has to be first established as part of constitutional law and as such binding on the legislature.

"Only then, it can be examined whether it is so fundamental as to bind even the amending power of Parliament, that is, to form part of the basic structure of the Constitution. This is the standard of judicial review of constitutional amendments in the context of the doctrine of basic structure."

http://judis.nic.in/supremecourt/qrydisp.asp?tfnm=28160
--
s. kalyanaraman

10-27-2006, 09:00 AM

QUOTEThe next step is increase the number of seats all round so that the general merit seat - all members who qualify get the seat irrespective of other quota seats. Hence students who qualify and cream of the society are never turned back. 
Where is the vision? Create a caste based society.

In this century people should talk about EQUALITY not what suits b@st@rd politicians of India.
Where this will end. It is reverse discrimination. Which is not only sickness but doom for a country. But I am surprised people come up with logic to support it or justify it.

Support poor student with funds, objective should be, provide education to every student, not based on last name or religion.

It is not acceptable, because it is wrong way to treat other person.

10-27-2006, 04:31 PM

came in email
QUOTENamaste.

The present Government is trying to appease the minorities in the ways
possible to them. Now, the National Commission for Religious and
Linguistic Minorities under the Chairmanship of Sri Justice Ranganath
Mishra is investigating the feasibility of providing reservation in
employment etc. to the minorities. If instituted, it will be
detrimental to the Nation as well as Society. Hence, this should not
take place. Therefore, I request you to sign and give a wide publicity
so that maximum number of people will sign.The URL is:

http://www.petitiononline.com/arrl1234/petition.html

The last date for receiving any suggestion at Commission is Oct.30 and
hence the signing should be over by that time.

Alternatively, we may as well send a mail/ fax to the Commission
directly at:

id: ncrlm2005@rediffmai l.com
fax no.: 011 23015336

10-28-2006, 01:25 PM

Hello,

This is a question that was striking me since long...

What happens if an OBC comes out to be the first ranker in any entrance exam,then would he be still selected as being a reserved category student?

Or he would be selected as a general category student,as in such a case he doesnt need any reservation for admission and free that OBC seat for someone who really needs the reservation?

Awaiting replies..

Thanks.

10-28-2006, 05:29 PM

u can't change cat after the test.

10-28-2006, 05:52 PM

QUOTE(Capt Manmohan Kumar @ Oct 28 2006, 05:29 PM)u can't change cat after the test.
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My point was that if an obc qualifies well enough above the general category competitors,then it doesnt make any sense that an obc seat be used for that student for his admission,so that, that seat should be used for an obc who is in real need for the reservation...

Does it happen this way?or he will always be using an obc reserved seat?

10-28-2006, 06:58 PM

<img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='dry.gif' /> I have understood point before and I understand it now.
It is for u to understand that cat can't be changed after appl.

10-30-2006, 12:01 AM

Quota not for indefinite period: SC QUOTEIn working out the carry forward rule two factors - unfilled vacancies and time limit - are now required to be kept in mind by the government without compromising on the 50 per cent ceiling limit of total reservation, the Bench said.

"The time-scale has to be imposed in the interest of efficiency in administration as mandated by Article 335," it added.

The court clarified that if the time scale was not applied, then the posts would continue to remain vacant for years, which would be detrimental to the administration.

So the Union and state governments, as the case may be, "will now have to introduce the time-cap depending upon fact and situation."

10-30-2006, 12:03 AM

QUOTEOr he would be selected as a general category student,as in such a case he doesnt need any reservation for admission and free that OBC seat for someone who really needs the reservation?

It they mention caste it will go into OBC reserved quota.

10-30-2006, 01:50 AM

QUOTERJD leader opposes inclusion of creamy layer 
Pioneer.com
Akhilesh Suman | New Delhi
Signaling a crack in the ruling United Progressive Alliance on the Supreme Court's verdict on excluding the creamy layer among the SCs and STs from the ambit of reservation in Government services and promotion, senior RJD leader and Rural Development Minister Raghuvansh Prasad Singh opposed the move to interfere with the apex court's verdict.

Since RJD chief Lalu Yadav has not made any statement on the issue after the court's ruling, Singh's assertion on the politically sensitive quota issue assumes significance.Â

"The court's verdict should be taken note of. Since chances of jobs and promotions are limited, the benefit should go to the non-creamy layer among SCs/STs," Singh told The Pioneer.
Â
On why political parties are so strongly opposed to the apex court's ruling, the Minister said, "many of them are dominated by leaders who themselves belong to the creamy layers. How can you expect them to be rational?"

The RJD, which is a product of the OBC policy, has accepted no reservation for creamy layer in the context of quota for OBCs in jobs and promotions. 

While pleading for benefits of quota in jobs and promotions, the RJD leader urged dalit leaders to be broadminded. "We can think of the benefits of reservations reaching to the really needy, only when the creamy layer among them is excluded," he added.

When asked, whether he was speaking on behalf of his party, Prasad said, "I am speaking what I feel is right."

However, it is understood that the RJD holds the same views as Lalu Prasad is trying to mend fences with the upper castes after being thrown out of power in Bihar. <!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />Â <!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />Â

10-31-2006, 08:29 AM

2 Dalit ministers veto creamy layerQUOTENEW DELHI: Meira Kumar and Ram Vilas Paswan â top dalit duo in the Manmohan Singh cabinet have opposed the extension of creamy layer to SCs/STs in the wake of a recent Supreme Court order
......................
Social justice minister Meira Kumar has not gone to Paswan's length but has opposed any creamy layer test for excluding better-placed SCs/STs from quota benefits. Kumar told TOI, "This is the first generation of SCs/STs to benefit from reservation. They have still not reached the higher positions. They should be given a few generations to establish themselves." Paswan, an independent leader positioning himself for a larger role in dalit politics, has joined the increasing clamour for a constitutional amendment.

Kumar, severely limited by the centrist leanings of Congress, which also draws support from anti-quota sections, has sought to eschew public rhetoric. Her measured stand is significant still, given that social justice ministry is the nodal ministry for SC/ST welfare and reservation policy. Kumar said an overwhelming majority among SCs/STs was in lower positions and it was not possible for their children to make a big leap to reach higher levels.

In her view, SCs/STs were negligible in higher professional positions like judiciary, business and journalism. Paswan, unfettered by party affiliations, said the judgment by a five-judge Bench contravenes an earlier nine-judge bench verdict in Mandal Commission case of 1992, which had said OBC creamy layer be kept out of reservation but said nothing about SC/ST creamy layer.


They want generations to get benefit. And generation of same family.
She is second generation of so-called Dalit and her kids are also enjoying benfit. Three generation had benefit, when it will stop. <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' />

10-31-2006, 11:44 PM

QUOTEIt's official, OBCs 41%, not 52 %: Survey 
Rajeev Ranjan Roy | New Delhi
Amid the raging controversy over the number of other backward classes in India, the National Sample Survey Organisation (NSSO) on Tuesday officially put the OBC population at 41.1 per cent.

The Pioneer had first carried the story on September 14, stating that the findings of the 61st round survey of NSSO for 2004-05 have estimated OBC population to be more than 40 per cent.

Though there is only a slight variation in the population of scheduled castes (SCs) and scheduled tribes (STs) from 19.6 and 8.9 per cent in 1999-2000 respectively to 19.7 and 8.4 per cent in 2004-05, there is a marked increase in the population of OBCs in the country. Yet the figure is far from the 52 per cent quoted by the BP Mandal Commission report.

The States and union territories where OBCs account for over 50 per cent of the total population are Puducherry, Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Bihar, Manipur, and Uttar Pradesh with respective shares in percentage estimated to be 76.5, 73.5, 61.6, 60.2, 59.4 and 53.

In the rural areas, the NSSO survey puts the OBC population at 43 per cent, while that of SCs and STs at 21 and 10 per cent respectively. In the urban areas, OBCs account for 36 per cent, followed by SCs at 15 per cent and STs at 3 per cent only.

According to NSSO officials, the findings are based on the survey spread over 7,999 villages and 4,602 urban blocks covering 79,306 households in the rural areas and 45,374 households in the urban areas.

The number of sample households for the social groups of ST, SC, OBC and others were 12,694, 13,929, 30,116, 22,502 respectively in the rural areas and 3,509, 6,355, 16,232, and 19,257 respectively in the urban areas.

"The findings of NSSO survey are quite authentic and close to the realities. The methodologies adopted in conducting the surveys are so scientifically designed that the findings have to be actual and realistic. Our estimates are unbiased," NSSO director general Vishnu Kumar said.


Even this is without census.

11-02-2006, 05:18 AM

QUOTE(paltry @ Oct 28 2006, 05:52 PM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Capt Manmohan Kumar @ Oct 28 2006, 05:29 PM)u can't change cat after the test.
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My point was that if an obc qualifies well enough above the general category competitors,then it doesnt make any sense that an obc seat be used for that student for his admission,so that, that seat should be used for an obc who is in real need for the reservation...

Does it happen this way?or he will always be using an obc reserved seat?
[right][snapback]59912[/snapback][/right]
</div>
SC candidates in quota jam
Sukhbir Siwach
[ 2 Nov, 2006 0235hrs ISTTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]

RSS Feeds| SMS NEWS to 8888 for latest updates

CHANDIGARH: The Chandigarh administration is in a peculiar dilemma. In the test for firemen, a bunch of scheduled caste candidates have left their general category counterparts behind and the government doesn't know whether to have the "winner SCs" in the general list or have them under the quota umbrella.

A confused municipal corporation MC) has now withheld the result of 41 firemen despite completion of all formalities two months back and is waiting for "guidance from the UT administration".

But the administration, it seems, is equally at sea on this. MC Commissioner PS Aujla on Wednesday confirmed the stalemate and said confusion over the issue remained.

That the government "guidelines" on the issue is clashing with what the Allahabad high court said on it isn't clearing the cobwebs either.

"Government guidelines, issued in 1998, say that if candidates from reserve categories come on the (overall) merit list, then they should be considered successful in general category itself," a senior MC official said.

"However, later on, the Allahabad high court clarified that candidates should be selected in the same category in which they had applied for. In these contradictory situations, it was necessary for us to take an opinion from the administration. Once we get the guidance from administration, we will announce the result."

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11-02-2006, 02:47 PM

A candidate from SC even if he scores at par with general category must be selected from general category only. This will ensure that only the top merit persons get admisssions from both categories and it serves the purpose of providing representation of all categories.

ramana · 11-03-2006, 01:10 AM

From Pioneer, 3 Nov., 2006
QUOTEHindu OBCs are only 30pc of population

Rajeev Ranjan Roy | New Delhi

NSSO survey says rest of 41 per cent are Muslims

The latest findings of the National Sample Survey Organisation (NSSO) have the potential to demolish many myths, hitherto influencing the country's socio-political order.
Â
As the 41.1 per cent OBC estimation by NSSO includes Muslims too, Hindu OBCs could account for 30 per cent of the total, as Muslim OBCs are estimated to be not less than 10 per cent.

"Our survey includes all OBCs irrespective of their religion," NSSO director general Vishnu Kumar said.
Â
The upper caste Hindu population could then be nearly 25 per cent, a figure that has so far not been explored. The BP Mandal Commission had put the population of other backward classes at 52 per cent.

"The OBCs among Muslims must not be less than 65 per cent of the cumulative figure of 13.4 per cent. It could be much more," Prof Abu Baker, former chairman, Delhi Minorities Commission, said.

Concurs Prof Faizan Mustafa of Aligarh Muslim University. "In States like Tamil Nadu, OBCs among Muslims account for almost 85 per cent of the total population. The overall OBCs among Muslim has to be in the range of 65 to 70 per cent," he added.

Going by the NSSO estimation, OBC political stalwarts like Lalu Yadav in Bihar and Mulayam Singh Yadav need to reorient their electoral strategies. Lalu, who has already favoured 5 to 10 per cent reservation for the poor among upper castes, lost the election in Bihar as 'the upper castes polarised against him' in the last Assembly poll.

Mulayam Singh too is projecting himself as a leader of the masses, and not just of Yadavs. He is banking heavily on the support of Rajputs to win the coming election in Uttar Pradesh, while Mayawati of Bahujan Samaj Party is equally enthusiastically wooing Brahmins.

"As Muslims account for 13.4 per cent of the country's total population, OBCs among them should not be less than 10 per cent," Prof Mustafa said. "Muslim OBCs could not be less than 10 per cent under any circumstances. As per the recommendations of the Mandal Commission, the Government has notified a majority of Muslim castes as OBCs," Janata Dal-U member of Rajya Sabha Ali Anwar said. The Mandal Commission had estimated that a little over half the Muslim population belonged to OBC category.

There is very little variation between the NSSO estimation of ST population of 8.4 per cent and the Census 2001 projection. There is a variation of around three per cent in the population of SC from 16.23 per cent in the Census 2001 to 19.7 per cent in the NSSO survey for the year 2004-05.

Since the debate over the number of OBCs is raging in the country in the wake of the controversy over the quantum of reservation, the NSSO findings could trigger a fresh bout of contention as to what is the actual status of OBCs in the country.

The survey assumes significance in the wake of the recent Supreme Court observations, questioning the basis of earmarking 27 per cent reservation for OBCs, a politically powerful entity in India.

Since Union Social Justice and Empowerment Minister Meira Kumar has been advocating an increase in the quantum of SCs in the Government quota, the latest NSSO findings could trigger the demand for a fresh look at the quantum of quota earmarked for ST, SC, and OBCs.

"The entire controversy around the quota has got complicated in the absence of any census of different social groups except that of ST and SC. In the case of OBCs, the NSSO survey is the only reliable option. The Government cannot have caste-based census countrywide overnight that further complicates the matter, as the Supreme Court is scrutinising the latest quota policy," a senior Social Justice and Empowerment Ministry official said.

A senior official attached with the Ministry's OBC section, however, holds a different view. According to him, the OBC population cannot be less than 48 per cent in the country. "Though scientifically designed, the NSSO survey is not conducted on a large scale. In the case of ST, NSSO estimation is very close to the figure of the 2001 census," he explained.

"The population is up by over three per cent in the case of SCs, a larger community. Since OBCs are a larger community, NSSO estimation of 41.1 per cent OBC population might not be very close to the realities. There will certainly be an upward variation of 7 to 8 per cent if the Census is done," the official added.

Can someone depict this data visually in pie chart or bar graphs? Any which way the UPA approach is wrong.

11-03-2006, 01:38 AM

Anyone to take on Ramana's suggestion can start here: http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/
It's a pretty good blog.

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