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India - China: Relations And Developments
Dear friends,
Before we get worked up and go all out to bash up PRC let us have a look at the fundamentals of the problem. What is the basis of the present border between India and China and on certain portions of the border between India and Tibet? Is it the border drawn and accepted by India and China or is it a border drawn by the British Imperial Power when it was the undisputed superpower. The distinguish contributors of this forum may like to throw some light on this aspect. If the border was drawn immediately after the defeat of the Chinese in the Opium war, then it is quite possible that an arbitrary border was drawn by the Imperial British Government, most probably operating from Simla.
If that is the case, it is quite unrealistic to think that the border of British India was drawn in the proper manner. The world has since changed and India may claim to be a great power, yet all will agree it has not reached the status that the British enjoyed in the previous two centuries. Therefore, if some wrong has been done in the past, it is unfair to expect PRC to accept it silently.
No point in trying to destroy PRC on the forum, it is not going to resolve the problem.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Therefore, if some wrong has been done in the past, it is unfair to expect PRC to accept it silently.
No point in trying to destroy PRC on the forum, it is not going to resolve the problem. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We are not destroying PRC, too big to destroy. We are just trying to bring facts.
I have some translated documents written by CHini scholars, what they think about India, other than border.
Do you want to read?

What you think about Mansarovar Burma, historically it was part of India?
India and China never had as such "border".

<b>
Recent trend - Chini don't want to talk to American companies who are represented by Indians or Indian origin.</b>
<b>China : Beijing ’s Arunachal Pradesh Card- </b> <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->China has always been territorially ambitious. Mao’s description of China ’s palm ( Tibet ) and ‘five fingers ( Nepal , Sikkim , Bhutan , NEFA and Ladakh) is well known.    The PRC had conveyed to the world a ‘historical loss’ of territories through their maps and atlas series.  As points of India ’s interest, the maps had claimed that entire Assam , even Andamans, was ‘historically’ part of China . What is to be remembered is that the PRC never gives up its border claims. To suit to its requirement of peaceful international atmosphere including in the neighbourhood for realisation of modernisation task, it prefers to ‘shelve’ the difficult border issues, like the one with India and instead work for ‘common development’. For e.g the PRC wants to ‘shelve’ the South China Sea territorial dispute, leave the Senkaku issue with Japan for ‘future generations’ to solve and ‘put aside the Sino-Indian border dispute waiting for a suitable climate for solution’ (Deng to Vajpayee, 1979). <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>India Inc about to conquer Chinese market </b>
Pioneer.com
Agencies | Beijing
<b>Indian businesses are making a beeline to China, attracted by its quality infrastructure, investor-friendly polices, low-cost operations,</b> huge domestic market as well as the potential to tap neighbouring South-east Asian and global markets.
 
Larsen & Toubro (L&T), India's top engineering and construction company is one of the major success stories that Indian Inc has achieved in China. L&T has opened its first overseas electrical manufacturing plant in Wuxi, a booming east Chinese city in Jiangsu Province to manufacture low voltage switchgear.

L&T (Wuxi) Electric Company Limited (LTW), the wholly-owned subsidiary plans to invest 11 million US dollars in the state-of-the-art plant and introduce new products as well, Chairman of LTW and whole-time Director of L&T, RN Mukhija said.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In India, India commies are doing best to stop India's growth by unions, creating road blocks in every infrastructure projects.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ravish+Nov 19 2006, 08:15 PM-->QUOTE(Ravish @ Nov 19 2006, 08:15 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Dear friends,
Before we get worked up and go all out to bash up PRC let us have a look at the fundamentals of the problem. What is the basis of the present border between India and China and on certain portions of the border between India and Tibet? Is it the border drawn and accepted by India and China or is it a border drawn by the British Imperial Power when it was the undisputed superpower. The distinguish contributors of this forum may like to throw some light on this aspect. If the border was drawn immediately after the defeat of the Chinese in the Opium war, then it is quite possible that an arbitrary border was drawn by the Imperial British Government, most probably operating from Simla.
If that is the case, it is quite unrealistic to think that the border of British India was drawn in the proper manner. The world has since changed and India may claim to be a great power, yet all will agree it has not reached the status that the British enjoyed in the previous two centuries. Therefore, if some wrong has been done in the past, it is unfair to expect PRC to accept it silently.
No point in trying to destroy PRC on the forum, it is not going to resolve the problem.
[right][snapback]61020[/snapback][/right]
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It is a border negotiated between British Indian Government and independent Tibet. PRC or imperial China was nowhere in picture. Remember that India and China did not have a common border back then. A PRC which conquered Tibet has no right to dispute that border which was signed by Tibetan government. Probably India can negotiate the border with new indpendent Tibet.
<b>China wants India to shed security bias</b>
Sure <!--emo&Big Grin--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

<b>Chinese firms find all is not rosy in India </b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It is there to sell its refrigerators, television sets and washing machines to India's fast growing middle class and said<b> its main battle was fighting the perception that Chinese goods were cheap, but of low quality.</b>

Another challenge was localising its products to the Indian market - which has thrown up some interesting changes in the designs of some products

"For example, our refrigerators that you buy here will have the freezer section on the bottom instead of the top," chief operating Officer Pranab Dabhai said.
<b>"We found out that Indian families don't like to eat leftovers, so are unlikely to freeze food for the next day." </b>
He added: "We've now built up trust and a brand equity with our Indian customers.
"I'd go so far as to say they don't think of us as a Chinese brand anymore - but as a global brand."
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<b>India test-fires nuclear-capable missile</b>
Welcome flowers. <!--emo&Big Grin--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
From Calude Arpi's website : Hu Jintao’s visit: on the McMahon Line, Brahmaputra and related issues

When Zhou Enlai did not know about the McMahon Line!

Tiawan is part of China, Tibet is part of China, Nepal is part of China, Arunachal is part of China, Askai Chin too... what else did I miss. It's all the fault of those Brits for drawing maps with thick 6H pencils instead of thin Pilot microtip pens.
ashyam please check the historical facts.Certain parts of China had common border with India. The 54 thousand sq miles of terroritory in Askai Chin is claimed by us but now under control of China. This is one such part of the border.Historically, Tibet has always been a vessel state of China. The treaty with Tibet was signed by the Imperial British Administration after the subjugation of Tibet by a British Expeditionary Force. Do u expect the British were generous enough to sign on the dotted lines put forward by a defeated Tibet.In fact it was signed after Tibet had become a protectorate of British India.Check the historical facts and then we may continue with this discussion.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/nov/14raman.htm
<b>Why I remain wary of China -</b> B Raman
I joined the Indian Intelligence Bureau on July 17,1967.

After my training, R N Kao, who headed the external intelligence division of IB, told me that I had been selected to head the Burma Branch of IB. The branch was created after the Sino-Indian war of 1962, and he considered it as important as the branches dealing with Pakistan and China. He wanted me to acquire expertise not only on Burma, but also on Yunnan province of China.

I continued to be in charge of the Burma branch for nearly five years -- handling analysis as well as clandestine operations -- and acquired such expertise that people used to refer to me as 'Burma Raman.'

After taking over, I thought I would familiarise myself with the background to the creation of the Branch, and sent for the relevant file. It was there that I saw a one para hand-written note by BN Mallick, who was director of IB at the time of the war.

'I have discussed with the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary. They have agreed that we must urgently create a Burma Branch. It should start functioning from today without waiting for a formal approval from Finance. Action for obtaining approval from Finance may be taken separately,' it said.

In order to understand why the Branch was created in such an urgency -- almost in panic -- I then requisitioned all Burma-related files of 1962 and the years before from the Record Room (Archives).

From the various notings in these files, I noticed that Mallick and others felt the Indian Army was so badly taken by surprise in what today is called Arunachal Pradesh because some Chinese troops had entered Arunachal Pradesh not directly from the North, but from Yunnan in the East.

They had clandestinely moved across the Putao region of the Kachin state of Burma without being detected by the IB. The Kachin state and the Burma Naga Hills were a no-man's land in those days, with practically no Burmese administrative or military presence outside the towns of Myitkyina and Putao. The Chinese had taken advantage of this.

I then went through all the pre-1962 source files in order to understand how the IB's sources in North Burma had missed this. In those days, whatever roads were there in the Kachin State and the Burma Naga Hills had been blown up by the anti-Rangoon insurgents. The only way of moving about and carrying goods from one place to another was on the back of mules. North Burma had a large Chinese population of Yunanese origin. Many of them earned their living as muleteers.

In the year before the war, the IB's trans-border sources in the North-East were repeatedly reporting about a tremendous increase in the number of mules and Chinese muleteers in Kachin state and the Burma Naga Hills.

<b>The then officers of IB had sent out a wake-up call by drawing the attention of the policy-makers to the national security implications of this development in the areas adjoining the Indian border in Nagaland and Arunachal Pradesh.

But they were ridiculed and accused of nursing imaginary fears -- just as today the IB, Research & Analysis Wing and the National Security Council Secretariat are being ridiculed by some analysts for sounding an alarm about the national security implications of Chinese investment flows into some sensitive sectors of the economy such as telecommunications. </b>

It was realised belatedly that these muleteers were Chinese Army and intelligence officers based in Yunnan, who had taken up position across our border in Burmese territory in the months before the invasion. After the war was over, there was a steep drop in the number of mules and Chinese muleteers in North Burma.

<b>In 1968, the governments of India and Burma agreed to set up a Joint Commission for the Demarcation of the Indo-Burmese boundary except in the northern and southern trijunctions. </b>

Kao spoke to the then Foreign Secretary and persuaded him to include me in the Commission under the cover of a Deputy Secretary of the Ministry of Home Affairs dealing with the North-East.

By that time, Indira Gandhi, the then Prime Minister, had decided to bifuracte IB and create R&AW under the charge of Kao. It was also decided that I, along with the Burma Branch, would stand transferred to R&AW, but I would keep the late MML Hooja, the then Director, IB, in the picture regarding my work.

Kao, therefore, took Hooja's concurrence for my being the joint representative of R&AW and IB in the Commission. My membership of the Commission gave me an opportunity to travel frequently and widely even in the remotest areas of North Burma.

The Commission used to meet alternately in India and Burma. Normally, joint aerial photographs of the border areas are the starting point for the demarcation work. At the second meeting of the Commission in Rangoon, the Indian delegation proposed that such aerial photography be undertaken. We added that since the Burmese Air Force might not have a plane capable of good aerial photography, we would be happy to request the Indian Air Force to do this job for the Commission and that we would not charge the Burmese government for it. A Burmese officer could be attached to the IAF for guiding in the aerial photography mission, we added.

The Burmese replied that they already had aerial photographs of the Indo-Burma bordering areas, and that we could use them as the starting point.

The photographs were of excellent quality. Totally surprised, we asked them how they took them since their Air Force did not have a plane capable of taking such aerial photography.<b> To our shock, they replied: 'Our Chinese friends helped us. We sought their help. They sent a plane of their Air Force to fly over the Indo-Burmese border to take the photographs.'</b>

<b>When we strongly protested against their allowing a Chinese Air Force plane to fly over our sensitive border areas and take photographs without our permission, the Burmese replied: 'We will never let down our Indian friends. We did take your prior permission.'

They then showed us a note from the then Indian Ambassador in Rangoon to their Foreign Office, stating that the Government of India would have no objection to their requesting the Chinese for assistance in the aerial photography</b>.

On my return to Delhi, I briefed Kao about this, and suggested that he should advise the Prime Minister to order an enquiry into how a matter having serious national security implications was handled so casually, and fix responsibility.

Kao replied: 'Raman, the R&AW has only recently got going. We will need the goodwill of the Ministry of External Affairs for functioning in the Indian embassies abroad. By raising this with the Prime Minister, we will unnecessarily be creating hostility to R&AW in the MEA. I will mention this breach of security to the Foreign Secretary and let him decide what further needs to be done.' Nothing further was done.

Years later, I was associated with some aspects of the external enquiries relating to the Mumbai blasts of March,1993.

After the blasts, the Mumbai police recovered a number of AK-47 rifles which had been issued to the terrorists by Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence. We gave a list of the numbers carried by the rifles and their photographs to a Western intelligence agency and sought its assistance in determining where and when these rifles were produced.

The agency, which had apparently excellent information on the Chinese ordnance factories and their production, replied that these rifles had been manufactured in China. They even gave us the details of the Chinese factories where they were manufactured and the date and year of manufacture. I was sent to Beijing with these details to ask the Chinese for information on who they had sold these rifles to.

The Chinese received me warmly, and one of their senior ministers even hosted a dinner for me. After the dinner, he told me that it was correct that the rifles recovered by the Mumbai police had been manufactured in China.
<b>
But when I asked him who they had sold these rifles to, he replied: 'Record-keeping in our ordnance factories is in a mess. Very often, they sell arms and ammunition to other countries without keeping a record of to whom they sold them.'</b>

The fact that these weapons were given to the terrorists by the ISI as alleged by us did not mean that Pakistan must have bought them from China, he argued. <b>'There are so many countries, which have bought these rifles from us. Pakistan could have bought them from any of them.' </b>

Since 9/11, I have attended four seminars on terrorism -- one in China and the remaining three in other countries -- at which Chinese experts were present. I was invited to speak on jihadi terrorism in Jammu & Kashmir and other parts of India.

<b>In the interactions which followed my presentations, the Chinese experts -- governmental and non-governmental --would keep quiet. </b>

When I asked them for their views on my presentations, they would invariably reply: <b>'We deplore the death of innocent civilians. We feel sorry for you. But we do not agree with you that what is going on in J&K is terrorism.'</b>

I would then ask them: <b>'How about jihadi terrorism in other parts of India?' Uniformly, their reply would be: 'We do not have enough information. So, we are not in a position to comment.'</b>

<b>'How about Xinjiang? You say that what is going on there is part of global jihadi terrorism, but what is going on in J&K is not terrorism,' I would ask.

They would keep quiet. </b>

We openly accuse the US of double standards on the question of terrorism and of going out of its way to ensure that no harm comes to Pakistan for using terrorism against India.

<span style='color:red'>The Chinese double standards on this subject are much worse than those of the US. They are even more determined than the US to see that no harm comes to Pakistan. But we never talk about it.</span>

I have been repeatedly stressing since 1994, when I retired, that China was unlikely to settle the border problem with us unless and until we agreed to give it the entire Tawang area in Arunachal Pradesh. They look upon Tawang as the strategic gateway to Tibet and to Assam in the reverse direction.

In their perception, their strategic control of Tibet could not be taken for granted unless and until they controlled Tawang.

If there is instability in Tibet after the death of the Dalai Lama, the Chinese Army would not hesitate to launch a pre-emptive strike and occupy Tawang, if not the whole of Arunachal Pradesh due to fears that the US might exploit the instability, with Indian connivance, from clandestine bases in the Tawang area.

They are preparing themselves for such an eventuality by strengthening themselves militarily in the Tibet area.

Under the renewed spell of Bhai-Bhaism, or brotherhood, we have so badly neglected the vital national security task of strengthening our position in Arunachal Pradesh and the rest of the North-East that we are in no better position today than we were in 1962, when we faced an avoidable disaster at the hands of the Chinese.

The Chinese have a long memory of their painful experiences of the past. They refuse to forget what the Japanese did to them during the Second World War and in the years before that. They refuse to forget what the rest of the world did to them during the opium wars. They refuse to forget what the Americans did to them during the Cold War.

Our nation, our people and our policy-makers have no memory for the painful experiences of even yesterday.

Within two months of the Mumbai blasts of 11/7, we have forgotten about them and are letting ourselves be led down the garden path once again by General Pervez Musharraf
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Why B.Raman is telling state sceret? MEA as usual was zero even then.
BRaman is telling us about some thing that will happen. The question is is are the services ready?
Have you scene recent series on Himalaya travel on Travel channel?
Very englightening and shows strong presence of Chini in Tibet and Indian border. Tibet is moving towards complete destruction of culture. Construction of modern raliway line on full swing.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> The question is is are the services ready?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No they are not ready. In 1962 commies sold material meant for soldiers in Calcutta bazaar, now they will sell material from Parliament or JNU or New Delhi minister’s bungalows or South Block.
There is no shortage of commie sympathizers in India.
Ramanji's article is pretty serious. China's Indian commie loyalists are less of a problem than the preparedness of the services Ramana and B. Ramanji are talking about.
Not only services are ill prepared but leadership is in denial. They lack will and vision when it comes to China. Leadership had closed their eyes and thinking tiger will just ignore them and look for another place for feast.
<b>PM does not break protocol for Hu</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It was External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee and not Prime Minister Manmohan Singh who went to receive China’s President Hu Jintao at the airport when he arrived in New Delhi on Monday, setting the tenor for what appears to be more ‘business-like’ exchanges than any major ‘path-breaking landmark visit’.
The first visit by a Chinese President in over a decade, since Jiang Zemin visited India in 1996, was clearly not reason enough for <b>the prime minister to break the protocol and go to the airport, as he had for three 'big ticket' visits earlier this year - for Saudi King Abdullah’s visit, for US President George W Bush’s visit and for Nepalese Prime Minister GP Koirala’s visit.</b>

But the government, aiming to remove any semblance of bilateral discord, created by statements made by the Chinese envoy to India Sun Yuxi (about all of Arunachal Pradesh being claimed by China) called Hu’s visit an "important" one -the "high watermark of the ongoing India-China Friendship year".
............<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->There is peace and tranquility along the border," a senior official said,<b> "and with the steady chipping away at differences we have managed to get Sikkim off the table and set up greater defence exchanges between the two countries."</b>
<b>India will seek greater information sharing on the flow of rivers like the Sutlej and the Brahmaputra, which originate in what India calls the Tibetan Autonomous Region of China, about which the two countries already exchange information on flood season data.</b>

There have been major concerns in recent years about China being able to control water flows into India in the absence of any comprehensive bilateral agreement on water sharing.
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http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id...s+visit&t=1&c=1
<b>Why I will protest Hu Jintao's visit </b>
Rediff.com[Saturday, November 18, 2006 10:14] <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The recent order issued by the Indian government to my friend, the Tibetan activist Tenzin Tsundue, is a painful reminder that we do not belong here. Like Tsundue, I was born and raised in India. I love this country. It has sheltered and nurtured our people physically, spiritually and culturally for two generations now. But we are not Indian.

We are foreigners and subject to a different set of rules. Though I studied law, I cannot rely on it to protect my rights because I am an alien. This is what Hu Jintao reminds me when he comes to visit. Until we win our freedom, Tibetans will never find true security as refugees � no matter how comfortable we may become in our host countries.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Official: China laundering Colombia drug money</b>
"<b>We are sincere friends</b>" <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Beijing: While claiming "active progress" in resolving the border issue, China on Monday said President Hu Jintao's visit to India would send an important message to the world that the two countries were "sincere friends and partners."

"We want to send an important message to the international community that China and India are sincere friends, partners for cooperation," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu told PTI here.

<b>Asked about the boundary issue and China's reported claim on Tawang, a Buddhist city in Arunachal Pradesh, Ms. Jiang declined comment.

However, Ms. Jiang claimed that China and India had made "active" progress on the boundary issue.</b> — PTI
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<b>Chinese leader begins India visit </b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->China has a literacy rate of 95%, compared to India's 68%. India's exports of manufactured goods in the financial year ending this March was $71bn, compared to $713bn for China.

After leaving India, Mr Hu will travel on to Pakistan for a three-day visit.
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<b>Tibetans pay the price</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Activists and supporters of complete independence for Tibet see an inverse correlation between the government crackdown and improving relations between India and China. The improvement is best symbolised by India’s recognition of Tibet as part of Peoples Republic of China.

“The government has been hardening its stand over the years,” says Dhonduk Dorjee, a leader of the Tibetan protestors, over 600 of who staged a demonstration in Delhi against Jintao’s visit. The hardening stand is visible in lathi charges, house arrests and other atrocities unleashed on Tibetan activists in recent times, they say.

In New Delhi on Monday,
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<img src='http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,365688,00.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

<b>Tibet protests greet Hu on historic visit to India</b> <!--emo&:cool--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/specool.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='specool.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->India holds some 120,000 exiles from Tibet, many of whom today formed a vocal protest against Mr Hu’s visit, with demonstrators - led by Buddhist monks in maroon and yellow robes - holding a march hours before his arrival.

They trampled on the red Chinese flag and called for an end to China’s rule of Tibet, which Chinese troops have occupied since 1951.

<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Hu visit halts Delhi traffic as monks protest on Tibet</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->BUDDHIST monks in maroon and saffron robes brought traffic in congested New Delhi to a halt last night ahead of the arrival in the city of Chinese President Hu Jintao.
More than 1000 demonstrators calling for an end to Beijing's rule in Tibet chanted slogans protesting at Mr Hu's visit to India, while tens of thousands of police and paramilitary forces guarded the route he was expected to take after arriving at the Indira Gandhi International airport.

Tibetans traditionally give Chinese leaders a hostile reception when they visit India. Tibetan leaders across the country have been placed on a special security watch to coincide with the visit.
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