Progress Of Indic Languages Vs English

[Bharatvarsh]

Bodhiji can you enlighten me about Bharatendu Harischandra and his contribution, I heard him being reviled as another Hindu fascist, from what I read he was against the increasing Persianization of Hindi and wanted a middle path for Hindi.

[Guest]

Bharatvarshji,

Sri Harishchandra (Bharatendu was a title he was given) can be said to be the father of Modern Hindi.

In backdrop of the "failed" war for independence in 1857, all nation-loving people were doing a soul searching as to why we failed. One of the prominent reasons of failure of course was not having proper communication, and lack of one language in which majority of India can speak and understand each other. (While the battle had been planned and even started in one part of India, several other parts did not even know about it. Although language is not the only reason, it was one reason.) Then at the same time, missionaries were already implementing the English-based Macaulay education system in full swing, and with support from British.

In that background where did the hundreds of Hindi dialects stood in North West and Central India? Nowhere. There was absolutely no 'language', no common grammar, and no foundation at all. Farsi was largely the language of elite. While literature was indeed being produced but were completely without any indigenous literary foundation. Most of it was either direct translation from Farsi or French or English. For example, if you read the earliest Hindi Novels (e.g. Chandrakanta Santati) these are almost next to Farsi.

Then came Harishchanda, whose mother tongue was Bengali. Young man came to Varanasi which was and largely is the cultural capital of Hindus, he was from some royal family, and had ample financial and political backing. He saw the problem, and said India needed to have at least one language in which all or most Indians can talk to each other. He tried to identify one existing popular language, but none would fit what he wanted. So he decided to "create" a modern language based upon hundreds of dialects that existed. With that idea he started transforming what was then knows as 'Hindostani' or 'Khari boli' into a language called Hindi, which was unheard of until then. His slogan was - 'Matribhumi ka yah utthan - Hindi Hindu Hindusthan' (Let us uplift our motherland - through Hindi Hindus and Hindusthan). In a very short time, within 2 decades, he did so much of work - directly and through influencing others, that it was out of control of British to stop him.

In this he was completely supported by the Hindu kingdoms and princes. He also worked with Pandits of Tamil, Kannada and Telugu to refine a Hindi grammer based upon Sanskrit and Southern languages, since Hindi did not have a defined one until then. He also started several publishing houses, news papers, and scholarships. He also inspired various Sanskrit and Hindi schools throughout India, mostly North India. Pandit Malviya started Banaras Hindu University, likewise Sampurnananda started Kashi Sanskrit Vidyapeeth, and Kashi Nagri Pracharini Sabha etc. All largely his inspirations.

After him, there were various students of his, who continued his work, and soon Hindi became a modern language. This all happened within a sphere of 50-75 years. So much of literature was generated, and Hindi was so much refined, purified and cultured, that English and Farsi had a true alternative. India saw an explosion of great poets, writers, journalists... Jay Shankar Prasad, Maithili Shanan Gupt, Mahavir Prasad Dwivedi, Acharya Hazari Prasad Dwivedi, Makhanlal Chaturvedi, Ram Kumar Varma, Mahadevi Verma, Sumitra Nandan Pant, Phanishwar Nath Renu, Prem Chand, Harivansha Rai Bachchan ...so many more... As a result there was a tide of publication houses, magazines, news papers, cinema, radios, music.

That golden era is now over. Now India's talent goes into creating English literature. If trend continues, the names like these will be confined to universities and forgotten by the generations that come.

But this is the contribution of Harishchandra, who is aptly given the title of Bharatendu.

[Guest]

Bharatvarsh (and other telugu speakers/readers)

http://www.archive.org/details/AmaraKosam

have to look for pedda balashiksha online as well... <!--emo&:bhappy--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/b_woot.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='b_woot.gif' /><!--endemo-->

[Hauma Hamiddha]

Tangentially related to the topic-- Has any one checked Savarkar's letters from Andaman on the linguistic states in India. He correctly feared that these might encourage divisive tendencies and politics. Many regionalist fighting for a prominent place for their local languages were infiltrated by the mlechCha agents in order to subvert them towards divisive politics. In TN this is very obvious but seeing what is happening in the Northeast and for that matter even Andhra and Kerala today I am sure this was more prevalent.

[Guest]

Hauma Hamiddhaji, if possible, please throw more light about what Savarkar had said.

====

Glass (gilAs in Hindi) : what is the original term for this in Bharatiya languages? Did it even exist indigenously in that shape? What about 'cup' (farsi = pyAlA) ?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Hauma Hamiddha+Apr 15 2007, 10:40 AM-->QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ Apr 15 2007, 10:40 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Many regionalist fighting for a prominent place for their local languages were infiltrated by the mlechCha agents in order to subvert them towards divisive politics. In TN this is very obvious but seeing what is happening in the Northeast ....
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I don't get it, HH. When you say "mlechCha agents", who are you talking about? Also, what is happening in the Northeast on linguistic issues? I am not aware of this - can you give me an outline, please?

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Glass (gilAs in Hindi) : what is the original term for this in Bharatiya languages? Did it even exist indigenously in that shape? What about 'cup' (farsi = pyAlA) ? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have been trying to find the same for sometime now (galass in Telugu, galassi in Panjabi) but haven't been able to, check the dictionaries here:

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/list.html

The Urdu one's also give the origins of the terms.

k.ram thanks for the link, here is another good dictionary for Telugu:

http://www.sahiti.org/dict/

[ramana]

I have a question. Are the various regional languages of India different Prakrits some with different script and how and why did the Sanskritization take off suddenly in the early part of the last millenium- ie from 1000AD onwards?

[ramana]

<!--QuoteBegin-Hauma Hamiddha+Apr 15 2007, 05:10 AM-->QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ Apr 15 2007, 05:10 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Tangentially related to the topic-- Has any one checked Savarkar's letters from Andaman on the linguistic states in India. He correctly feared that these might encourage divisive tendencies and politics. Many regionalist fighting for a prominent place for their local languages were infiltrated by the mlechCha agents in order to subvert them towards divisive politics. In TN this is very obvious but seeing what is happening in the Northeast and for that matter even Andhra and Kerala today I am sure this was more prevalent.
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Yes I read his Letters from Andaman. He was informed about the Telinga people banding together in early 1900s to ask for regional representation and he was worried that would dilute the struggle against the British. The Telugu people's grevience of which he was unaware was from political and econmic representation in Madras Presidency. Language was one way of expressing nationalism and get political rights. Telugu is the most Sanskritized South Indian language and the people have the largest of the SI population.
However there was parallel Dravidian movement in TN fed by Christian priests in Vellore and we have a thread on that in IF. This and the NE movement (again by Christian missionaries) were divisive and should not be clubbed with the Telugu movement while Savarkar does bring up the issue of Telugu people getting toghther could lead to centrifugal tendencies.

[Guest]

<!--emo&:cool--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/specool.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='specool.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Excellent Devanagari script online interactive tutor.

Especially useful to teach children: http://www.avashy.com/hindiscripttutor.htm

Though for some reason, they have ka - 'kabAb' and kha - 'khAna' rather than ka - kamal and kha - kharboojA/khargosh which used to be the common ...

[Bharatvarsh]

Panjabi dictionaries:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.punjabonline.com/servlet/library.dictionary?Action=English

http://www.ijunoon.com/punjabi_dic/

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Bharatvarsh]

One thing I have been wondering is how terms for modern English words such as journalist were coined in Telugu, vilekhari in Telugu means journalist, it's not part of 19th century Telugu since I checked C.P Brown's old dictionary so I wonder how it came into being, anyone have a clue?

[ramana]

Links to Pragati- Hindi Web browser based on Firefox

[Bharatvarsh]

Husky I have recently been looking for good English translations of Ponniyan Selvan, Parthiban Kanavu and Sivagamiyin sabadam by the writer Kalki, any recommendations?

In the meanwhile someone has been translating "Sivagamiyin Sabadham" into English here:

http://sivagamiyin-sabadham.blogspot.com/

Obviously translations can never really match the original, but if you have any clue can you suggest some good ones.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+May 1 2007, 09:51 AM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ May 1 2007, 09:51 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Husky I have recently been looking for good English translations of Ponniyan Selvan, Parthiban Kanavu and Sivagamiyin sabadam by the writer Kalki, any recommendations?
[...]
Obviously translations can never really match the original, but if you have any clue can you suggest some good ones.
[right][snapback]68099[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're incredible <!--emo&:cool--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/specool.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='specool.gif' /><!--endemo-->

I did not know about any translations until now. My mother has the Tamil originals of Ponniyan Selvan (Kalki magazine) and Parthiban Kanavu back in India. I've so far only experienced them through family telling me the stories.

Googling gave me:
http://asavaree.ammas.com/a1/advisors/inde...5041&cid=331776
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Q: Hi, Can I read "Ponniyan Selvan" - Kalki from Internet? Can you give me the link. Thanks,Vidhya -- vidhya, NJ,USA 04/30/04
 
Q: Is Kalki's "Ponniyan Selvan" available on the Internet as an ebook?

A: Hi Vidhya, I read all the volumes translated by CV Karthik Narayanan and really enjoyed them.
Here are the webistes:
http://www.geocities.com/ponniyinselvan_kalki/
http://www.tamil.net/projectmadurai/pub/...index.html
http://www.zine5.com/archive/sum.htm
Have fun. I certainly did! <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->The first two links are the Tamil versions. The first also has Parthiban Kanavu, Sivagamiyin Sabadam in Tamil and others.
The third, though in English, is described as "Ponni's Beloved: A Retelling of Kalki's Ponniyin Selvan by Sumeetha V."



About the English translations by CV Karthik Narayanan, found some info on them here:
- http://www.geocities.com/fisik_99/ponniyin_selvan.htm
This person says that the translation by Karthik Narayanan is very good.

- http://www.indiaclub.com/Shop/SearchResult...?ProdStock=8213
The price per book is seriously steep (28 USD). But in India, the books are way more affordable (RRP 250Rs per volume) <!--emo&:guitar--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There may be some India-based Indian bookstores that are willing to ship overseas when you request them to (like BV Bhavan does).

[Bharatvarsh]

Husky thanks for the suggestions, I have heard very good things about the books of Amarar Kalki, I especially like historical fiction and stories that have a sense of adventure and suspense about them such as The count of monte cristo, so Ponniyan Selvan I thought would be a good read.

I don't know whatever happened to Telugu authors after Gurajada Appa Rao, they churn out the same old love or affair story nonsense, no sense of adventure or thriller, like something set in the times of Sri Krishna Deva Raya.

[ramana]

I was told that Viswanatha Satyanarayana's Veyi Padaglau (Thousand Sails) is a story of the colonization. He was awarded the Bharatiya Jnana Peeth award.

[Bharatvarsh]

Ramana thanks for the info, will check it out.

Here are some more Telugu words for people to make use of:

line (in notebook or any text) - pankti
direct - tinnaga
chess - chadarangam/chaturangam
president - rashtradhipathi
president (in panchayat or any other council) - adyakshudu
medal - pathakam
constitution - rajyangam
plan (as in 5 yr plan) - patthakam, pranalika
discipline - kramasikshana
pension - upakara vethanam
tomato - takkili kaaya, rammulaga, karpuravanga, tarkaari
philosopher - tarkikudu
anniversary - vaarshikotsavam
delivery (of a baby) - prasavam, kaanpu, prasuuthi
telegram - thanti
thanks - dhanyavadaalu
rash - dhuduku
modern - aadhunika, nuuthana
fruits - pallu, phalalu
support (maddatu) - anda, aasara, aadharuvu, aaskaaram, praapakam

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Editorial: 1. Bilingualism in Andhra Padesh: Is it an impossible concept?
 

Let me at first express my gratitude and pleasure that you all are enjoying Thulika. I appreciate your kind comments and support. While the reception in general is great, readers’comments on two articles deserve special mention. The first one is “Woman’s Wages.” I am so pleased that that little story spurred readers to reflect on current conditions. I am grateful to the author, Iswara Rao, and the translator, Sai Padma, for their contribution.


Second story is the “Bilingual Kid.” The messages I’ve received regarding the teaching methods of English in Andhra Pradesh directly from the youth who have been through the system were an education for me.


And some of the professors in my college pointed out to me the English teaching methods/policies put in place in America in the early 1900’s. The BIA [Bureau of Indian Affairs] started schools to teach [American] Indian children with the sole purpose of “civilizing” and “assimilation” of the children of the native tribes [American Indians] into the white world. Simply stated, it was meant to make young American Indian children to accept the white men’s beliefs and value systems. Their stated policies included uniforms appropriate for the white men’s world and punishing children who spoke their native tongues [emphasis mine]. See the article  http://www.aiefprograms.org/history_facts/history.html for complete text.


Despite the apparent similarities, I do see a difference here. The above dissension was between two races, the white America and the native Indians [American Indians]. In Andhra Pradesh, it is just one race—the Andhras. The imposition of English in Andhra Pradesh schools is not from outside. To me, that seems unconscionable!


In June 2001, I commented on the sorry state of or rather lack of Telugu language skills among today’s youth. In response, V.V.S. Sarma, Bangalore, sent me an 8-page article, pointing out that the problem lay in the poorly written, elementary school textbooks [See Sarma’s article in June 2001 Thulika, telugu bhasha dusthithiki kaaraNam telugu vaacakale!]. During my recent trips to Andhra Pradesh, I have noticed Americanization in every aspect—the children’s toys,  education, attitudes, clothing, electronics, aspirations, pursuits, careers, not to mention the language, which is a curious mix of Telugu with heavily accented Indian  English ...


Until now I was priding myself on the fact that in my country even the illiterate could speak two or three languages at functional level. It appears the situation is strangely different now. The illiterate still could speak two or three languages while the children in schools are being taught to speak only one language and that is English!

During my Intermediate years [first two years of college at the time] I opted to learn Sanskrit. The teacher was a traditional scholar but not educated in English. Therefore, he taught us the Sanskrit language in Telugu. However, English was the medium of instruction and as such, we were required to write the exam in English. In other words, the language I was learning was Sanskrit, the medium in which we were taught Sanskrit was Telugu, and our expertise in Sankrit was tested in English! And, none of us qustioned the propriety of this system, nor were we outraged, much less complained. Today I am glad I took that classs and happy I know al least a little Sanskrit. 


Having said that, let me refer back to the article on BIA schools. The Bureau and the parents eventually realized that it would not work and decided to revise their policy. In 1926, the Meriam Report’s recommendations included among several others:


·        Do away with “The Uniform Course of Study,” which stressed only the cultural values of whites.


·        The Indian Service must provide youth and parents with tools to adapt to both the white and Indian world.


“The Depression had finally benefited Indian people, not because of their unique plight, but because they were at last a part of a national plight. … Indian education should be rooted in the community and should stress the values of native culture,” commented the author. “Children learned through the medium of their own cultural values while becoming aware of the values of white civilization. …  [American] Indian schools introduced Indian history, art and language,” he further elaborated.


My question is what does it take for the school administrators, parents, the elite and the government of Andhra Pradesh to realize that they can teach children the English language along with their mother tongue Telugu, which is also state’s official language, and not to the exclusion of ?


***
 

REFERENCES:
 

American Indian Education Foundation. “History of Indian Education in the US.” http://www.aiefprograms.org/history_facts/history.html. Downloaded 2/22/2003.


Reese, Debbie, et.al. Fiction Posing as Truth. Rethinking Our Classrooms.A Critical Review of Ann Rinnaldi’s My Heart is On the Ground: The Diary of Nannie Little Rose, a Sioux Girl. www.rethinkingschools.org/archive/13_04/review.shtml. Downloaded 2/20/2002.

http://www.thulika.net/2003March/Ed0303.html<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I tell you these fuckers used to give us beatings for speaking in Telugu in class, i used to get them regularly unless it was the Telugu class going on, no wonder the kids speak some bastardised tongue and think its Telugu, it's unconcious but the mixing happens all the time because from childhood on Telugu is degraded to some kind of backward langauge (otherwise why would they beat you) and English put on a pedestal.

[Bharatvarsh]

Good article on the literary trends in Telugu fiction and the social trends in general in AP:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Political and Social Reality in Telugu Fiction

V. V. S. Sarma

http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~vemuri/classes/...lugufiction.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For once its from a Hindu perspective not a commie one.