Communal Relations - Conflicting Narratives

[Arun_S]

Ladies and Gentlemen.

I would like to have your indulgence by starting a topic of discussion at India Forum, a topic that has been axed (banned) at Bharat-Rakshak. All the participants have been advised/suggested to come to India-Forum. Thus I ask India Forum to welcome participants who may take refuge here for active discussion that are tough but important.

For new participants from BR I would like to request them to please start with a post introducing yourself or at least your BRF Handle/Name.

Let me start with the last post on this topic at Bharat-Rakshak Forum:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Shiv

This is an admin announcement

The heat generated in the last 10 religion threads and these last two threads on Communal tension/relations that followed on from the religion threads led to a vote among admins on BR as to whether the topics should be retained or not.

At last count the decision to lock this series of threads was reached by an admin vote of 8 for versus 4 against.

I will be locking this thread.

A suggestion has been made that these topics can be freely discussed on India Forum and a request that anyone who wishes to continue discussions on the issues should do so on India Forum.

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?act=idx

This thread will remain in a locked state for a while and then be consigned to the trashcan<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Arun_S  12 Apr 2007   

If I may add a request.

For people who participate on this topic at India Forum, for continuity of discussion, it will be a good idea to use same user name as BR Forum or if you use a different user name, please announce your BRF ID so we do not have to discuss the same issues and familiarizes with where is person coming from (from contextual memory purpose).

I am glad to see BR Admin community recognizing India-Forum and listing its URL on BRF and asking people to participate there:

Link to India Forum: Discussion Someone please start a thread there by the name "Communal relations - conflicting narratives"

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?act=idx

Thank you Ladies and Gentlemen.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For back reference the old BR threads are:
Communal relations - conflicting narratives -Thread-1
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=3065

Communal relations - conflicting narratives -Thread-2
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic...er=asc&&start=0

Religion Discussion threads (10 threads archived):
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewforum...a7dc34f34ce19b9

I am convinced that people joining from Bharat-Rakshak will enjoy the environment here and also I trust India-Forum folks will also gain from the bigger collective fraternity of people who care about India.

[shamu]

I'm not sure what was discussed among admins in BRF.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'><b>
However, it proves one thing. Forget christians and muslims accepting hindu narrative of history, even a discussion on the idea of hindu narration is not tolerated by people concerned about Indian national security.</b></span> <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->

[dhu]

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

[acharya]

I want to post this to remind what the real battle is.

<span style='color:red'>
...
however, the battle at hand is one of freedom of expression, in intellectual terms no less, of the the crux of the Indian nation, i.e., the constant in its history that is the Hindu Narrative ...

why precisely is it being suppressed and towards whose good?</span>

[acharya]

Greg wrote:<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->BTW Acharya, I was intrigued by your post sometime back claiming that Hindu caste system emerged as a british artifact. I was wondering if you would oblige me with a short clarification on what exactly you meant. Are you saying that caste-based segregation that was prominent during the Raj and later was NOT present before the British took power? What exactly is the Hindu narrative on this matter? I dont want to jump to conclusions based on common stereotypes about Hinduism although I noted that Sajan's views (supported by selective data) were in sync with that stereotype.
You obviously did not read mine or AnandK's posts on the issue.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Acharya is right the Caste system as we know it today emerged as a British artifact. No, it does not mean that caste - known as Jati based segregation was invented by the British but its codifications, limitation of movement, rigidification was a process that got nailed by the British.

Here is another startling view or hypothesis - were it not for the British, the caste system as we know it today, would likely be a non-issue and dead.

----------


SwamyG wrote:<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Acharya: My age does not even matter one paise to the discussion. You can laugh all you want. It further does not matter if I am old or newbie to this subject.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Dont worry I am not laughing at you. There is no prepared list of books.
You have to roll up your sleeves and hit the book shelf.
Here is a partial list at http://voiceofdharma.com/books.html


Here is an example of book banning
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/ayodhya/ch12.htm

Quote:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In the same week when the Kar Seva was due, the speaker of the Uttar Pradesh Assembly, H.K. Srivastava, made a proposal to attack the problem of communal friction at what he apparently considered its roots. He wanted all press writing about the historical origins of temples and mosques to be banned. And it is true : the discussion of the origins of some mosques is fundamental to this whole issue. For, it reveals the actual workings of an ideology that, more than anything else, has caused countless violent confrontations between the religious communities.

The real target of this proposal was the book Hindu Temples : What Happened to Them (A Preliminary Survey) by Arun Shourie and others. In the same period, there has been a proposal in the Rajya Sabha by Congress MP Mrs. Aliya to get this book banned, in spite of the fact that about half the book had already legally been published in different papers. The police dropped by the printer and later the publisher to get a few copies for closer inspection.

The really hard part of the book is a list of some two thousand Muslim buildings that have been built on places of previous Hindu worship (and for which many more than two thousand temples have been demolished). In spite of the threat of a ban on raking up this discussion, on November 18 the U.P. daily Pioneer has published a review of this book, by Vimal Yogi Tiwari, which I reproduce here in full.

The book is a collection of articles written by Arun Shourie, dr. Harsh Narain, Jay Dubashi, Ram Swarup and Sita Ram Goel. It is perhaps the first endeavor on the part of scholars to dig from the graveyard of history the identity of some 2000 temples destroyed by the Muslim invaders and rulers. The book is not an exercise in rewriting history, but is an effort to present the facts and give a bird's eye view of the truth hitherto unknown. The book has as its subject matter not only the Ram temple at Ayodhya but nearly 2000 temples throughout the length and breadth of the country which met the same fate as that of Ayodhya, Mathura and Varanasi.

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----
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Greg wrote:
Acharya wrote:
SwamyG wrote:


Acharya: Is someone stopping anybody from publishing a book extolling the virtues of Hinduism or narrating the "Hindu narrative"?

Yes, It has been stopped from publishing at the school textbooks, universities and history depts for 60 years.
Laughing Obviously you are new to this. If I may How old are you?


@ Acharya
I think he meant publish it via an international book publisher and have it sold in the bookstores (or disseminated free with donated funds if possible). Other ways to spread the message would be via documentaries and movies. Indian movie industry is pretty big...

BTW Acharya, I was intrigued by your post sometime back claiming that Hindu caste system emerged as a british artifact. I was wondering if you would oblige me with a short clarification on what exactly you meant. Are you saying that caste-based segregation that was prominent during the Raj and later was NOT present before the British took power? What exactly is the Hindu narrative on this matter? I dont want to jump to conclusions based on common stereotypes about Hinduism although I noted that Sajan's views (supported by selective data) were in sync with that stereotype.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Either way there are books available. The marxist version of the history has been made dominant narrative by the Frankfurt groups of socialists in the 60s.
More important the ICHR and history dept have been dominated by the marxist historians for over 50 years now who have actively suppressed the Hindu narrative and created a media campaign against the nationalist history making it untouchable. So books available in the free markets are also held as 'communal' by the intellectual class.




Check out the dialogue here for caste

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index....wtopic=937
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/article/castesystem.htm


http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index....topic=1679
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index....topic=1302
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index....topic=1659

If you read the Book by Dirk, You will start seeing Hindus in a new way.
Quote:<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
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Asad, Talal.(ed.) Anthropology and the Colonial Encounter. New York: Humanities Press, 1973.

Barrier, N. Gerald. (ed.) The Census in British India. New Delhi: Manohar Publications. 1981.

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Biswas, P.C. The Ex-Criminal Tribes of Delhi State. Delhi: Hindustan Publishing House Corp, 1960. 153pp.

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Bopegamage, A., P. V. Veeraraghavan Status Images in Changing India. Bombay: P. C. Manaktalas and Sons Private Ltd., 1967.

Buch, M. A. Rise and Growth of Indian Liberalism. Baroda: No publisher listed, Ph. D.thesis at the University of London in Political Science, 1938.

Chamberlain, M. E. Britain and India: The Interaction Between Two Peoples. Newton Abbot, Devon: David and Charles (Holdings) Ltd., 1974.

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Cohn, B. S. India: The Social Anthropology of a Civilization. Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey: Prentice-Hall, Inc., 1971.

Cohn, B.S. An Anthropologist Among the Historians. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1987.

Crane, Robert I. and N. Gerald Barrier. British Imperial Policy in India and Sri Lanka 1858-1912. New Delhi: Heritage Publishers, 1981.

Crooke, W. The Tribes and Castes of the North Western India. Vol., 2, 3 and 4. Delhi: Cosmo Publications, 1974.

Dalton, E. T. The Tribal History of Eastern India. Calcutta: Office of the Superintendent of Government Printing, 1872.

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Dirks, Nicholas B. "Castes of Mind," Representations. 37, Winter 1992.

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Inden, Ronald. Imagining India. Cambridge, Mass.: Basil Blackwell Ltd., 1990.

Kulkarni, V. B. British Statesmen in India. Bombay: Orient longmans Ltd., 1961.

Mackenzie, Donald A. Statistics in Britain 1865-1930. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1981.

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Marshall, P. J. and Glyndwr Williams. The Great Map of Mankind. London: J. M. Dent and Son Ltd., 1982.

Nigam, Sanjay. "Disciplining and Policing the `criminals by birth' Part 2: The development of the disciplinary system, 1871-1900", The Indian Economic and Social History Review, 2, 1990.

Nigam, Sanjay. "The Making of a Colonial Stereotype-The Criminal Tribes and Castes of Northern India", The Indian Economic and Social History Review, 3, 1990.

Pant, Rashmi. "The cognitive status of caste in colonial ethnography: A Review of Some literature on the North West Provinces and Oudh," The Indian Economic and Social History n Review, 24, 2, 1987.

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[Guest]

hello, i haven't tried posting anywhere on the www except br. hence, I would have to take it with a little bit of difficulty in the begining.. not much i should say to add to big gurus..but,.. with a few crude liners, still i think, i would make some sense is my belief thus far.

i am one of those posters, got diverted here from br.

imho, i believe that chasing down to bring common civil code, banning caste system, and bringing a society entirely on merit and not on affirmative or reservations, would take eons.. not to say, that should not happen, but its a long term process. i think, economic progress solves many problems of the masses. i guess, that is faster to achieve than restructuring a social setup., unless we think we have gotten another messaih.

from the yindoo, argumentative minds, that messaiah, will never be born again.. he will be one among only.. many saints and rams and babas have tried to burn their hands, but weilded little. not much of crowd magic they have anymore, or they are not imparting what should be imparted.

another thing, if GoI sponsored messaih system can be enforced, then it can cover up the whole of India. These messaihs could be well paid, plus have direct connections with village panchayat raj system. somehow, we need to think about modernity, integrating science, religion and economic progress paths into "way of life".

if GoI can take over religious institutions, they can as well take over messiah-ship.
;-)

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-saik+Apr 13 2007, 02:17 AM-->QUOTE(saik @ Apr 13 2007, 02:17 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->another thing, if GoI sponsored messaih system can be enforced, then it can cover up the whole of India. These messaihs could be well paid, plus have direct connections with village panchayat raj system. somehow, we need to think about modernity, integrating science, religion and economic progress paths into "way of life".

if GoI can take over religious institutions, they can as well take over messiah-ship.
;-)
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You have to forgive us. Many of us don't have the patience or the inclination to read the specific BR thread from which you have come over.

What specifically are you talking about? What is the problem you wish to solve? How does your proposal solve that problem?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-ashyam+Apr 12 2007, 12:00 PM-->QUOTE(ashyam @ Apr 12 2007, 12:00 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not sure what was discussed among admins in BRF.

However, it proves one thing. Forget christians and muslims accepting hindu narrative of history, even a discussion on the idea of hindu narration is not tolerated by people concerned about Indian national security. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[right][snapback]66814[/snapback][/right]
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Well said.

[Guest]

Sai: Welcome to IF. IF has been discussing these for past couple years, I'll post links to thread later and will find time to respond if possible. Please feel free to browse around till - Acharya's already posted some relevant links.

Others, this thread will be moderated closely, so please be nice to each other <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->. Remember all fingers aren't alike.

[Guest]

Glossing over some threads, it looked like most of the discussion seemed to be just on the need for hindu narrative.

There is no debate on the "need" for a hindu narrative here, but what are the components of this, and how to go about it?

Ronald Inden in his work, Imagining India writes about the state of intellectuals quite succinctly and could help developing the components for starters, unapolegetically.. past, present and future (implications)

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->With the rise of identity politics, 'postcolonial' historians have shifted away from imagining class and national unities in India's past and have started pointing to diversities, but many of these studies have a tendency to recuperate the older colonialist imaginings of India. Representations of the systematic  mistreatment of women (patriarchy), the exploitation  of the young (child labour), domination by a  parasitic Brahman caste of Aryan descent, discrimination by caste (untouchability), and the triumphalism of an atavistic Hinduism reiterate the earlier images of India as an inherently and uniquely divided and oppressive place. The idea this time  around, one presumes, is that leaders will stitch battered women, Hijras, the backward castes and classes, Dalits and Muslims into an alternative 'transnational' class, one that win challenge the leadership of the 'technopreneurs' as well as displacing [sic] the older class and national unities. Because this  new scholarship has largely recycled the colonialist                
images of traditional India, it is unlikely that its proponants will undertake studies that would seriously disturb these images. Instead they are beginning to  find 'identities' everywhere in South Asia not just in  the present but far into the past<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Thoughts?

[acharya]

<span style='color:blue'>With the rise of identity politics, 'postcolonial'
historians have shifted away from imagining class and
national unities in India's past and have started
pointing to diversities, but many of these studies
have a tendency to recuperate the older colonialist
imaginings of India. Representations of the systematic
mistreatment of women (patriarchy), the exploitation
of the young (child labour), domination by a
parasitic Brahman caste of Aryan descent, discrimination
by castes (untouchability), and the triumphalism
of an atavistic Hinduism reiterate the earlier
images of India as an inherently and uniquely divided
and oppressive place. </span>

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-vishwas+Apr 13 2007, 03:51 AM-->QUOTE(vishwas @ Apr 13 2007, 03:51 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
You have to forgive us. Many of us don't have the patience or the inclination to read the specific BR thread from which you have come over.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I am known as shiv on BRF, and I was associated with the religion discussion on BRF. It would be painful for anyone to actually go through archived discussions without getting bored, so I will merely try and sum up my view.

For no particular reason other than the originally stated reasons that still hold true, religion discussions were not allowed on BRF from its inception. That was no good when the Islamism topic came up and I credit Kaushal with the foresight and determination to draw attention to it and I owe it to Kaushal for opening my eyes, although we did not necessarily see eye to eye in some issues. It is easier to see his viewpoint now and that is why I am here.

After Islamism became a well recognized threat someone started the discussion about evangelism, that was termed evanjihadism on BRF. While all the facts were pointed out, it struck me that there was no way you can truly say what is wrong with topic like evangelism unless you are able to state a Hindu viewpoint. Since a discussion on evangelism alone, without weighing it against a Hindu viewpoint seemed pointless to me I felt that a broadening of the scope of discussion was required.

I had another concern about the concurrent threads on BRF that allowed Islamism and Evanjihadism to be discussed without any explanation about why Hindu thought should not be mentioned. I will try and explain that concern as clearly as I can:

Any casual observer going through the Evanjihadism threads and Islamism threads on BRF would find plenty of criticism of those doctrines. The same casual observer going through news media and history would find exactly the opposite impression being created - with all Hindus being fundamentalist bride burning caste killing demons with no mention of what I felt was a Hindu story - or a Hindu narrative. The basic outcome that I saw of this situation was that any Hindu posting a Hindu viewpoint is automatically a fundamentalist. That impression is augmented by seeing Hindus criticizing the actions of the religions of peace and love.

History and the media are already loaded against claiming that Hindus can be up to any good. The word "peace" was claimed by Islam and "love" claimed by Christianity. Hindus cold always lay claim to words like "hate', "discrimination", "caste" etc and nobody would complain. These things of course have been fleshed out on this forum for ages.

Living in India I believe I have some insight into how Hindus are working/not working in our own country and I believe there are hundreds of thousands of "Hindu stories", of happiness, sorrow, tribulation and displacement that must be written and recorded as part of what I would call a "Hindu narrative".The Hindu narrative is automatically going to point out how Islam and Christianity spread in India and I believe it is this point on which all talk of Hindu narrative is switched off.

I have had in a sense - a change in my way of thinking after I looked at some things.

If one looks at how Hindus survived at all, given that we do not follow a proselytizing faith, I believe that survival did not come by chance or some ineffable Hindu power. Survival occurred because there were people who actively protected the faith. Since "Hindu fundamentalism" is in no way aimed at coercing anyone else, I am veering around to the belief that Hindu fundamentalism is an essential part of the faith. It is precisely that "fundamentalism' that allowed it to survive. Both Christianity and Islam actively "poach" on other faiths, and such poaching is an assault on Hindus which, I now realize, will not stop with love or asking for tolerance and respect. Assuming that was mistake on my part.

It will stop only by drawing a red line that must not be crossed - or else..

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-k.ram+Apr 13 2007, 06:26 AM-->QUOTE(k.ram @ Apr 13 2007, 06:26 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no debate on the "need" for a hindu narrative here, but what are the components of this, and how to go about it?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I believe that a Hindu narrative will be so huge, and found in such diverse places that nothing can be ignored.

I will use an analogy. The "Hindu narrative" has to be treated like the site of an aircraft crash - i.e everything is sifted, and every little piece is picked up and ever detail of each piece is recorded. There are stories, family traditions, family quirks in the way certain functions are celebrated or marked that reflect an unwritten History of Hindus. All those things must be put down and recorded by individuals.

There are aspects to the "Hindu narrative" that do not strike one as being a "narrative" at all - but forms part of the whole. The "temple tree" (Peepul?) by the roadside that becomes a shrine. The anthill that receives attention at Naag Panchami. The lone man silently praying in front of the Peepul or the lone married woman with a lamp circling "Naag"'s abode in prayer so she can have a child are undocumented and ignored aspects of the Hindu narrative, and parts of the story that can be told by individuals like us.

What we need is not an oligarchy of scholars but a babble of individuals keeping their own records - family blogs for others to see as part of what will be the richest and oldest surviving narrative in the world. A narrative that has been drowned out by the scholarly gobbledegook that I read.

[narayanan]

Welcome to SV and all others.

As I c it, BR is BR and IF is IF. Both have their roles, and let us make the best of each. For instance, there is little point in bashing Pakistanis here on IF, though Piyengar claims to have visited here.

Equally, there are some things that are better left off BRF. No problem.

It is part of Hindu tradition anyway, to accept these differences. To each its own "dharma".

While I certainly see (oh, brother! do I see!) the flood of messages on the threats to Hinduism, and all the campaigns of various entities, and the media dorkiness, my suggestion to ppl is to avoid falling into the trap of becoming "Aom"s (Angry old men). There is simply no point in that. Meanwhile, there are lots of very creative, constructive things being done to investigate our roots and past, and to sympathetically interpret our "puranas" to extract the scientific facts from there.

At the same time, there is a growing amount of claptrap being passed off as "Hindu science", and I am not in favor of blindly tolerating that, since it is very destructive to our interests. And I am stronlgy against giving blind, blanket endorsements to organizations that may have done good work for India and Hindus.

I am still struggling to figure out what SV means by "Hindu narrative".

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-narayanan+Apr 13 2007, 07:51 AM-->QUOTE(narayanan @ Apr 13 2007, 07:51 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> to sympathetically interpret our "puranas" to extract the scientific facts from there.
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In that case, why narrate Ramayana to the next generation? Why not have a committee just "extract" all "salient life lessons" from the "vulgate edition" and the "critical edition" and teach these few lines in "moral science class". I think there is a fundamental disconnect with what it means to have a "tradition". Part of this disconnect is the assertion that Islam and Christianity add to the diversity of the traditions in India, whereas these two ideologies actually destroy genuine diversity.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->At the same time, there is a growing amount of claptrap being passed off as "Hindu science", and I am not in favor of blindly tolerating that, since it is very destructive to our interests. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you think about Ashoka Iron pillar in Delhi or old Pandav Palace or Temple architecture?

Vedas, Purana, Ramayana, Mahabaratha are not only religious text but they are Hindu’s history. Invaders destroyed majority of literature. From time to time different people came and wrote their narration adding either poetic version during Bhakti movement e.g Tulidas.

If somebody invade India again or government decides to built flyover and destroy Ashoka Iron pillar or use it in foundation or throw in sea, next generation will never believe it ever existed. We will never know actual composition. Yes, Western historians will call it mythology and next generation will call “stupid Hindu Science” created by fundamentalist.
Jawalji temple, Dwaraka are another example.

When poet writes about eye, everyone had their own version. An eye is common entity but is not myth. Same way we should be able to identify poetic addition and actual in later version of religious text.

[shamu]

Do people think that a Hindu narrative (whatever it is) will be accepted by christians and muslims?

IMO, they will never accept that. If one finds out that he/she was born after his/her mother was raped, his/her sympathy will naturally go to the mother and start hating the father, even if he is a poor old man now. Exactly same situation will happen to average muslim and christian population. In fact the leaders of those two religions will do everything to disrupt that Hindu narration.

[dhu]

Regarding the subversion of a traditional society by the crusaders of peace and love:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"They were both driven as much by grudges and grievances as by true belief, and intimate family politics mattered as much as the wars and conspiracies in which they were engaged."link<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-ashyam+Apr 13 2007, 10:26 AM-->QUOTE(ashyam @ Apr 13 2007, 10:26 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Do people think that a Hindu narrative (whatever it is) will be accepted by christians and muslims?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


No Hindu need give sh1t whether anyone else accepts it or not.

Do YOU accept the narrative that Islam is a religion of peace.

As a way of life that touches at least 20 percent of the people in the world Hinduism is an unknown entity.

If you live anywhere outside India and say "Christmas" people know what you are talking about

Same about Ramzan

But you say "Dussera" and people don;t know what the hel you are referring to.

"Hindu" means many armed Gods, caste and a wholelot of other negative connotations.

This is a result of the Hindu story, a Hindu worldview - teh Hindu narrative being unknown. The Hindu narratove has been ddefined by all sorts of jokers.

How about ordinary people doing it? People have to do it. Nobody else can.

Go back to your parents/grandparents (if you are young enough) and say how Ganesh chaturthi was celebrated at home.

Did you learn any slokas as a child? What are they? Have you taught your kids? What do they mean. Why is food served in aparticular order in Hindu meals?

These are all parts of the Hindu narrative.

[Guest]

shiv, I cannot but agree with you when you say:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Living in India I believe I have some insight into how Hindus are working/not working in our own country and I believe there are hundreds of thousands of "Hindu stories", of happiness, sorrow, tribulation and displacement that must be written and recorded as part of what I would call a "Hindu narrative".The Hindu narrative is automatically going to point out how Islam and Christianity spread in India and I believe it is this point on which all talk of Hindu narrative is switched off. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think that is the excerise that a Hindu, or a group of Hindus should take part in first - as in defining a Hindu narrative.

The fundamental problem here is the way "Hindu dharma" is codified. i.e. There is no codification at all. While the other Abrahmic religions start off with a book (i.e. written word), a Hindu begins his religious initiation by "living" and "experiencing" the religion. Which means there is no way a Hindu will be able to point out a certain book and say that is the truth, because the moment you open up the said book, it will say - Don't follow me, find your own path - A Hindu's strength and weakness is right there.

I am a lurker in BRF and have been following the whole saga of the said thread, and I thought I would do a simple excercise in my mind. Putting aside the question as to whether a single Hindu narrative is required or not, since that needs to be discussed first and a concensus gotten, if there is required a single Hindu narrative, how would we define a Hindu - I mean can we actually find the "bindhu" from which all the various threads of Hindu thought came into existence, and define it in a simple sentence.

Don't tell me we don't need it, because we all know we do. If a child, going to a convent school in India, comes back to it's parents and asks the parent - Why am I a Hindu? What is a Hindu? - can the parent actually give a simple definition that a child can understand.