i have some information on "upakarma" relevance for present age by Major (retd) H Subramaniam, BLR. Of course, the content is from a group post, submitted by another member, who took consent from him. I am not sure if I can post it here. I may be able to send it by email.
But, I think, imho, I can produce the more non-sectional parts affront here.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
RELEVANCE OF UPAKARMA IN THE PRESENT AGE
We have come a long way since the Vedic times. The world has evolved much in the millennia that have lapsed. The way of life, culture and âconcept of valuesâ of all communities of this land have also undergone considerable changes. The Brahmin community is no exception to this. We have, by and large, abandoned our primary or the prescribed occupations, namely, studying and teaching the scriptures, and have, for various reasons, taken to different occupations and diverse ways of life. It is obvious that the community is undergoing a âDiasporaâ (i.e. a great dispersion) necessitated by several factors. The Varna Dharma and Ashrama Dharma have become totally unacceptable to the present social as well as political setup. Consequently, the rites and ceremonies relating to the above concept of Dharma are also becoming redundant. From a pragmatic approach or a purely commercial point of view, these rites may be irrelevant and hence they certainly could be dispensed with. But, the question arises, âIs everything in life to be reduced to purely temporal level and valued only from a commercial point of view or on monetary basis only? Is it prudent for a community to dispense with its traditions, culture and its very ethos overnight? Though these rites appear quaint today and do not produce any tangible gains, can it be said with certainty they will be so in the future too? That posterity will not need them! One should not forget the fact that, the world, though undergoing rapid changes and is evolving new paradigms of behavior and concepts of values, these phenomena are cyclic in nature. Do not doctrines, theories and practices denounced as absurd, baseless and even potentially harmful to the community or humanity at one time, not only get credence but also acceptance subsequently in light of new discoveries, changed conditions and concepts? The Varna and Ashrama Dharma, no doubt, due to its gross misuse in the past and misunderstanding in the present, has developed a repugnant odor. But, there is no denying that, in the basic human psyche, there exist four shades, indicating clearly distinct tendencies and aptitudes. This is a fact that has been established scientifically which the rest of the world has to accept, though reluctantly. This may give rise in the days to come, again to a new class of âcustodians of knowledgeâ and its dissemination to the rest of the community, which are the very essence as well as the root of the Brahminic culture and ethos. This being so, by giving up totally our traditions and practices, will not we the Brahmins end up in a cultural vacuum without any roots? We see in every other religion, community and ethnic group a conscious and consistent effort to assert their identity, revive what little they have as their culture and even what has gone into disuse. They also take every effort to preserve and resuscitate their own culture and traditions and take pride in them. This being so, are the Brahmins going to obliterate their very identity and merge with the main stream as non-descripts? When the members of this community are being marginalized and even ostracized for misdeeds committed in the past by their ancestors, and/or during the interim period by their predecessors, when âVarnasankaraâ and Diaspora are trying to obliterate the very identity of the community, is it not all the more essential to identify and preserve the essence of its culture for its successors? For the generation yet to come? Yes; we do owe this to posterity!<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Random replies;
The gram dal salad is always moong dal. Moong dal is also served at ritual meals.
There is also a limitation on the type of vegetables. All of them are native species of India except for chilis. The more orthodox wont use root vegetables (Tamasa) and also use only black pepper.
Shaurya, One of the cook books I have is by Shanta Rama Rau and she comments on traditional Maharastrian thalli arrangement. She says the supreme complement to a Maharshtrian lady is to say the right side of the thalli is as good as the left side or vice versa. Need to look up the exact quote. Do you know anyting about this?
If anyone has access to KT Achaya's books it might help to look it up. Also contact the local purohit and he might tell you the meal arrangement tradition. It has to do with taste(shad ruchi) and invocation to various gods etc. etc.
next time I go to Livermore Temple will ask.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=76...ation++of&hl=en
also search for other sequences with "scientific verification of vedas"
<img src='http://edviswanathan.sulekha.com/mstore/edviswanathan/albums/greatness-2%20of%20hinduism.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
04-19-2007, 01:23 AM
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2007, 01:24 AM by acharya.)
<img src='http://edviswanathan.sulekha.com/mstore/edviswanathan/albums/Charvaka%20phlosophy.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
5 Hinduism never state it has monopoly on truth or God. According to Hinduism, God & truth are universal.
Rig Veda states: 'ekam sat viprah bahudaa vadanti' â¦meaning Truth or God is one but learnt men describe it in many ways.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:blue'>
6 Hindu scriptures state, âSathya meva Jayatheâ meaning âTruth alone triumps, never falsehood.â So Hindu scriptures allow FREE FLOW OF THOUGHTS.
Hindu authors knew that by allowing absolute free of expression, every one will finally end up attaining truth. They preached, "Ignorance is the root cause of all evils and knowledge eradicates ignorance.'
</span>
7 Hinduism never state only by becoming a Hindu, one can attain salvation. Instead Hindu scriptures state, âSalvation or self-realization is open to all, irrespective whether a person Hindu or not. Even an agnostic and atheist can attain salvation.
8 Nobody is denied salvation in Hinduism. The best among us will attain with one life. The worst among us will attain through many lives.
Salvation or self-realization is the process by which one is attaining the true knowledge that he is the immortal soul Atman within and giving up the false knowledge that one is the perishable material body.
9 Hinduism never forcefully convert others to Hinduism like other religions do. Hinduism as a culture and it does not force any one to become a Hindu. Those who convert to Hinduism are doing that since they fell in love with Hinduism.
10 Hinduism believes in one and only God Brahman which expresses itself in trillions of forms. Hindus believe in a one, all-pervasive Supreme Being who is both immanent and transcendent, both Creator and Un manifested Reality.
According to Hindu scriptures you can worship that God which has NO name or form [nama-roopa] in any form & with any name.
You can worship that God calling it Jesus or Allah or Brahman or Krishna or Buddha or anything else you wish. In all worships, finally worshiper ends with a God which is spirit, which has no name or form.
11 Even atheists can proudly proclaim they are Hindus. In fact the Charvaka philosophy or Nastika philosophy, (existed during the Vedic period) founded by Charvaka rejected the existence of God and considered religion as an aberration. Nobody killed Charvaka. He died a natural death.
12 Hindus do NOT worship idols.. Hindus use idols like everyone else to concentrate on a God who has no name or form. All worships in all religions start with God with a name and form. As the devotee matures in devotion, devotee start sees a God without any form at all.
14 Hindus believe that the universe undergoes endless cycles of creation, preservation and dissolution. This belief is in parallel with the modern big bang theory.
15 Voltaire in Essay on Tolerance wrote:: "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it."
Hinduism is the symbol of what Voltaire wrote.
I agree Hinduism has the good, the bad and also the ugly aspects in it like any other culture or religion in the world.
Only thing we have to do is to eradicate bad and the ugly aspects, to better the lives of millions of Hindus, for years to come.
Rig Veda wrote:
Vasudhaiba Kutumbakam
(the world is a family)
Rig Veda also wrote:
Let noble thoughts come to us from every side.</span>
http://edviswanathan.sulekha.com/blog/post...duism-great.htm
04-19-2007, 01:28 AM
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2007, 01:32 AM by acharya.)
[center]<img src='http://edviswanathan.sulekha.com/mstore/edviswanathan/albums/default/Aham.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
[/center]
[center]
<span style='color:red'>
"I AM GOD" CONCEPT
[ http://amiahindu.com/ ]</span>
[/center]
Sumann Bharadwaja Sarma, Thanks for that detailed explanation.
I have a problem with "satyameva jayate".. this is not working in India, but everywhere else it does.
People have cheated my father, mother, self and in lakhs or rupees. they have destroyed our house, and since they have higher political power and rowdy links, we have succumbed to "false hood".
i am hurt here, in the way of life, and people not following it. its a collective "satyam" that needs justice. our justice system, police, law and the whole 9 yeards of basic living is corrupted.
having a broad slogan like "satyameva jayate" really kills me, when I think about basic living is based on wrong doings.
===
what i am pointing is there is no strong relationship with hindu narration and the ways of living now [consider corruption alone].
i guess, the social evil is what hampering a great narration., which would have made me spend more time to post after real good research and study, and my experiences....
sope, as far as "satyameva jayate" slogan goes.. its only bad reflections. i don't trust "truth" anymore., within our desi land.
<!--emo&:ind--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/india.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='india.gif' /><!--endemo--> I guess the whole discussion is about as to can we live on our values or do we have to adapt to worldly wise ways.
UP elections and even before during Kumbh mela, Hindu fraternity is making a great attempt to unite.
Needless to say, without unity, u don't need any enemies.
As has been brought out previously also, the art is to take all Hindus together.
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/index.php
God in Hindu Dharma
Discuss concepts of the Supreme in Sanatana Dharma here.
Sub-Forums: Vaishnava, Shaiva, Shakta, Hare Krishna (ISKCON), Swaminarayan
Discuss Hindu Scripture here.
Sub-Forums: Vedas & Brahmanas, Upanishads & Aranyakas, Puranas, Itihasas, Bhagavad Gita, Tantras
Philosophy
Discuss Hindu Philosophy here.
Sub-Forums: Dvaita, Advaita, Vishishtadvaita, Paradvaita
Yoga
Discuss Yoga traditions here.
Sub-Forums: Bhakti & Karma, Jnana, Hatha & Kriya, Patanjali, Ayurveda
Other Dharma Traditions
Discuss other Dharma traditions here.
Sub-Forums: Carvaka, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism
New to Sanatana Dharma
New to Sanatana Dharma? Ask any questions you have here.
Lexicon - Words of Sanatana Dharma
Alright Shiv,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> The shrine to Sengottu Velavar - Murugan is of great importance.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your IF name means Murugan. In BR you are Shiv. So from father to son. All we need is Holy Ghost!
<!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Brahma Rakshasas ?
<!--emo&:devil--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devilsmiley.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='devilsmiley.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-acharya+Apr 19 2007, 01:23 AM-->QUOTE(acharya @ Apr 19 2007, 01:23 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->5 Hinduism never state it has monopoly on truth or God. According to Hinduism, God & truth are universal.
Rig Veda states: 'ekam sat viprah bahudaa vadanti' â¦meaning Truth or God is one but learnt men describe it in many ways. Â
6   Hindu scriptures state, âSathya meva Jayatheâ meaning âTruth alone triumps, never falsehood.â  So Hindu scriptures allow FREE FLOW OF THOUGHTS.
Hindu authors knew that by allowing absolute free of expression, every one will finally end up attaining truth. They preached, "Ignorance is the root cause of all evils and knowledge eradicates ignorance.'
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will utilize this post to pen down thoughts that occurred to me late night when I was trying to get back to sleep after a midnight emergency call.
1) Islam says that all children are born Islamic but are misled, so non-Muslims need to be "reverted" to Islamic belief in one God called Allah, who had one final Prophet, Mohammad, and requires you to follow some set rules.
2) Christianity it seems does not lay claim to all humans at birth and humans require to be initiated into Christianity by a rite called Baptism, after which one is presumed to show allegiance to father, son and holy ghost.
3) What does Hinduism say? It says what Acharya has quoted above. Hinduism does not insist that a person should follow Shiva or Allah, as long as he realizes that it makes no difference.
However some Hindus insist that a following of Shiva or Vishnu rather than Allah or Yahweh are sure-fire signs that a person is Hindu. Or they insist that a following of Allah or Yahweh makes a person non-Hindu. As per the definition of Hinduism above, these Hindus are wrong and they are themselves ignorant of Hinduism.
Please post opinions on this conclusion.
<!--QuoteBegin-sengotuvel+Apr 19 2007, 08:58 AM-->QUOTE(sengotuvel @ Apr 19 2007, 08:58 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-acharya+Apr 19 2007, 01:23 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(acharya @ Apr 19 2007, 01:23 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->5 Hinduism never state it has monopoly on truth or God. According to Hinduism, God & truth are universal.
Rig Veda states: 'ekam sat viprah bahudaa vadanti' â¦meaning Truth or God is one but learnt men describe it in many ways. Â
6   Hindu scriptures state, âSathya meva Jayatheâ meaning âTruth alone triumps, never falsehood.â  So Hindu scriptures allow FREE FLOW OF THOUGHTS.
Hindu authors knew that by allowing absolute free of expression, every one will finally end up attaining truth. They preached, "Ignorance is the root cause of all evils and knowledge eradicates ignorance.'
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will utilize this post to pen down thoughts that occurred to me late night when I was trying to get back to sleep after a midnight emergency call.
1) Islam says that all children are born Islamic but are misled, so non-Muslims need to be "reverted" to Islamic belief in one God called Allah, who had one final Prophet, Mohammad, and requires you to follow some set rules.
2) Christianity it seems does not lay claim to all humans at birth and humans require to be initiated into Christianity by a rite called Baptism, after which one is presumed to show allegiance to father, son and holy ghost.
3) What does Hinduism say? It says what Acharya has quoted above. Hinduism does not insist that a person should follow Shiva or Allah, as long as he realizes that it makes no difference.
However some Hindus insist that a following of Shiva or Vishnu rather than Allah or Yahweh are sure-fire signs that a person is Hindu. Or they insist that a following of Allah or Yahweh makes a person non-Hindu. As per the definition of Hinduism above, these Hindus are wrong and they are themselves ignorant of Hinduism.
Please post opinions on this conclusion.
[right][snapback]67394[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Following Shiva or Vishnu are not the onlee criteria.
Following Allah and Christ mean no freedom of thought as well as super claim on Ultimate Truth thus making this Universal truth limited to human shortcomings.
This is a major essential difference between Snatani understanding of Supreme and that of Non Snatani God Deity. The Monotehsitic God deities need to grow and start exhibiting Universal qualities ,then they can be accomodated as part of Snatan Dharm family, till then we cannot endorse their followers following Hindu way of realization.
As per Vedas, Onlee ignorant indulge in following and worshipping .
<!--QuoteBegin-sengotuvel+Apr 18 2007, 09:22 PM-->QUOTE(sengotuvel @ Apr 18 2007, 09:22 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->One thing the Venn diagram did in my mind was to start me thinking about what consitutes a "true Christian", a "true Muslim" and a "true Hindu"
Who occupies the space between all thse "true" people? Who occupies the grey areas (white in the diagram)?
I find on this forum (and BRF) that many Hindus tend to reject people who fall in these grey areas, while as far as I can tell, Christianity and Islam work overtime to get these "grey area" people within their fold.
Ultimately, that may be Hinduism's fatal weakness.
[right][snapback]67344[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a major problem.
The exclusives tendencies among certain sections and elite readily ensures that a major portion of Hindu narrative is lost. Historically it has ensured that such narratives never became a part of our heritage.
How do you or I define "grey area" after all? Why in fact should someone accept your or mine definition as "pure"?
Is not trying for an exclusive definition very much like EJ/Islamist led fundamentalism 's search for a mythical religious purity?
As noted, many people in this forum (to an extent, though less, in BRF) express such notions of religious purity.
It is funny in a sense that people after having decided to adopt to a non-Western framework, go back and try to measure and define their own belief system in terms of Western framework (i.e. "Pure form of XYZ religion").
My belief is that in order to create a truly Hindu (read indigenous) narrative, we need to listen and record many peripheral traditions like Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism - various sects of Sanatana Dhrama, tribal folklore, animist and atheist traditions.
All these people and their belief systems are part and parcel of this ancient land. The existence of these diversities are due to the flexibility and freedom inherent in Sanatana Dharma. Leaving out any of them will make them susceptible to EJ/Islamist propaganda and most importantly, such an all encompassing narrative will truly reflect India and it will also provide due recognition to many marginal groups that have contributed to making of Indic civilization.
<!--QuoteBegin-Viren+Apr 18 2007, 04:13 PM-->QUOTE(Viren @ Apr 18 2007, 04:13 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->water around leaf prevented ants and insects from coming into you leaf; the few morsels were put out there so the ants didn't go back hungry. Such concerns for little creatures while keeping hygeine in mind speak volumes. Similar traditions exists in other cultures?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here is J.A.Dubois' interpretation as written by him in "Hindu Manners, Customs and Ceremonies" Pages 277-278.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->After his food has been served the Brahmin pours a little water round the food, then traces a square patch with a thin stream of water, puts a little rice in the middle, and says: 'Glory to Narayanan!' sprinkling over it a few drops of water. He also places a little rice on each of the corners of the square, saying successively: 'Glory to Vishnu! Glory to the god of evil spirits (Siva)! Glory to the god of the earth (Brahma)! Glory to the earth! repeating each time, "I offer him this rice'. On the rice that he is going to eat he places either some leaves of the tulasi, or a few of the flowers that he offered in the preceding sacrifice. He then traces a circular patch with a thin stream of water, and puts some rice in the center. This is an offering to the evil spirits.
Pouring a little water into the hollow of his hand, he drinks it as a foundation for the meal he is about to make. He takes a little rice soaked in melted butter and puts in into his mouth, saying: 'Glory to the wind which dwells in the chest!' At the second mouthful, 'Glory to the wind which dwells in the face!' At the third 'Glory to the wind which dwells in the throat!' At the fourth, 'Glory to the wind which dwells in the whole body!' At the fifth, 'Glory to those noisy ebullitions which escape above and below!'
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Added: I remember being instructed, by elders, to ensure that the rice did not touch the teeth during the process. Of course after that it was time to slurp up the payasam. Nothing like eating on a plantain leaf. </b>
Sri sengotuvel, here is a narrative for you
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Our sastras came into existence at a time when mortals mixed with the gods. We would be able to appreciate this fact if we tried to understand the samkalpa we make at the time of performing any religious function. The samkalpa traces the present from the time of creation itself. From Jyotisa we learn the position of the grahas at the commencement of the yuga: then they were all in a line.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some calculations with regard to heavenly bodies today are different from those of the past. And, if the findings at present are not the same as seen in the sastras, it does not mean that the latter are all false. The sastras have existed from the time the grahas were in a line and the North pole was directly opposite the Pole star. Since then vast changes have taken place in nature. Valleys have become mountains, mountains have become oceans, oceans have become deserts and so on. Geologists speak about such cataclysmic changes, and astronomers tell us about the change in the courses of the heavenly bodies. <b>So what we see today of the earth and the heavenly bodies is different from what is mentioned in the sastras</b>.
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part10/chap8.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-prem+Apr 19 2007, 09:37 AM-->QUOTE(prem @ Apr 19 2007, 09:37 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Following Shiva or Vishnu are not the onlee criteria.
Following Allah and Christ mean no freedom of thought as well as super claim on Ultimate Truth thus making this Universal truth limited to human shortcomings.
This is a major essential difference between Snatani understanding of Supreme and that of Non Snatani God Deity. The Monotehsitic God deities need to grow and start exhibiting Universal qualities ,then they can be accomodated as part of Snatan Dharm family, till then we cannot endorse their followers following Hindu way of realization.
As per Vedas, Onlee ignorant indulge in following and worshipping .
[right][snapback]67397[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for attempting to answer my question.
I'm not really bothered about the Gods' characteristics but about human attitudes.
For example - a man praying at a Shiva temple would automatically be taken as Hindu while a man praying at a church would be dubbed Christian, not Hindu.
However, if the same Hindu were seen to be praying at a Church on the basis of the higher gyan that all Gods are one and the same because truth and God and oneself are all the same, then would the man be a real Hindu, or perceived to be traitor.
If the Christian above went to Tirupati stating the same reasons - about the identity or name of God being unimportant in the face of the truth, would he get the benefit of being called Hindu.
If we started looking for real Hindus in India would the number be 800 million, or closer to 100 milllion or less. But if real Hindus are defined by their propensity to reject Allah/Jehovah in favor or Shiva/Vishnu then are they really knowledgeable about what their own Hindu philosophy tells them?
Should Hindus me more inclusive, or more exclusive, throwing out "bad eggs" and their narratives for lack of purity. Using such rules, how large is the community of real Hindus in India? I'm not betting on 800 milllion by a long shot.
Intresting letter to Asia Times I am posting in full to give context and highlight the Hindu narrative
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> I would like to echo the words of the ethnic Indian in the article Malaysia's melting pot on the boil (Mar 24). <b>If I am a citizen of the country, can speak the language, educated in this country, why should I be discriminated against, [Jeff] Church [letter, Mar 27]? What business is it of yours what I do in my own home? If I choose to speak a different language at home, listen to different music or eat different foods, isn't that my business?</b> Once the music or food becomes popular in this country, then it's okay? <b>Most countries, including India and the US, make laws that benefit the minority</b>, and that's why the laws of Malaysia are so wrong. The readers of ATol might find this interesting, but I live in Chicago and I see this every day. I work downtown and I take the train, which goes north and south. The southbound trains are full of blacks and the [northbound] whites. This is not confined to Chicago but is common to every major [US] city. Blacks have been ghettoed in the country; they try to move to new places and whites immediately find new places to live. A young black teenager was recently sentenced to six years in prison for pushing a hall monitor at her school, while a white teenager who burned down a home received a stern warning! So much for assimilation! <b>Blacks have wised up. They now call themselves African-Americans. A look at photos of blacks in the '40s and now gives one a start. Blacks now wear different clothes (their suits are pink!), wear earrings [and] dreadlocks, even their names are totally different. But since they are considered Americans, they are simply "being themselves".</b> Newer ones are not so lucky. There was a huge ruckus over a Muslim senator who wanted to take his oath of office using a Koran instead of a Bible! Think of that! Does that make any sense, to harass a Muslim to take the oath using a book he does not consider holy? <b>In India, we have a Muslim president, [and] the prime minister is a Sikh. The chief of the armed forces is also a Sikh. One of the most respected industrial icons is a Parsi. To top it off, we gave the keys to the country to a Christian woman who was born in a foreign country! India has always welcomed total strangers but, unlike the US, never imposed any conditions. Mother India gave a home to Jews, Chinese, Bhutanese, Bohras, Parsis and countless others, but never asked them to give up their culture. Finally, I find it interesting that the Church constantly refers to diversity in a positive way. That's a bit strange, you can't have it both ways.</b>
Jayant Patel
Chicago, Illinois (Apr 2, '07)
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
|
