Hindu Narrative

05-04-2007, 01:34 AM

QUOTE(ramana @ May 3 2007, 10:45 AM)Also during puja when it comes to offering the prasad its the Gayatri that is chanted. And pujas are performed by both men and women all over India. So whats the issue?
Is it to the formal initiation to the gayatri that is being talked about?


Actually, I was more curious on the differences in practice w.r.t Gayatri mantram between South and India. There were two core issues that interested me:
1) In Tamil Nadu, as far as I know, Gayatri is said in such a way that it is audible only to the reciter's ears.
2) In Tamil Nadu, as far as I know, Gayatri is not said by the women.

After visiting some temples in Bangalore and Hyderabad, I extrapolated my thoughts to the entire South.

My extrapolation might be wrong, but then any reason for such a practice in Tamil Nadu.
As I post this post, another point (question) comes to my mind:

3)In Tamil Nadu, only the Brahmins seem to recite the mantram, how is it in the other parts of the country?

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 05-04-2007, 02:17 AM by Bodhi.)

SwamyG,

All the three observations of yours seem to be based upon a very narrow and skewed data set, and all the three are wrong when applied to generalization of either South or North or any particular sampradaya that I am aware of.

Regarding the recitation.

Recitation is called japa-yagya in shastras, and Bhagwan Sri Krishna says in Srimad Bhagwat Gita, 'Amongst all yagyas, I am the Japa-yagya'. There are various types and methods of jApa mentioned in the upasana padyatis. jApa finds special place in Bhakti-mat and finds very high place in navodha Bhakti (9-vidhas of devotion). Various Bhakti-sutras - from Sri Shandilya to Sri Narada mention several ways of doing jApa. However even in vedanta and nirguNa upAsanA too, jApa finds a very respectful place as a means of sAdhana. in Tantra padyati - jApa is a very critical tool of tantra-siddhi. Sri Sabar Nath ji - who was guru brother of Sri Gorakshanatha, and shishya of Sri Matsyendra Nath, also invented/discovered several mantras and siddhi-vidhi and japa widhi. He has the same place in the Mantra-yoga which Sri Gorakshanath has in Hatha Yoga.

Now, just to mention some 'methods' or 'procedures', as found in shastras. There are various ways in fact various various ways. Some require the sAdhaka to use the actual uchchArana or pronouncing the mantra in a particular way, others require the uchcharaNa to be avoided .

a) tAmasic jApa - loudly pronouncing the mantra, using throat
b) rajasic jApa - only self can hear, using talavya
c) sAttvik - only mAnasik - no sound in physical eather

then there is very respected ajapA jApa, which very crudely explained is to hear and see the ishta mantra by meditating upon it, rather than reciting it.

then another classification is by what kind of dhArana is the jApa done. there are classifications like dwimukhi, trimukhi and chaturmukhi jApa.

so, there is no one 'single way' and 'right way' and 'popular way' and 'north way' and 'south way' of jApa. It is upto the individual and his sAdhana.

**Hauma Hamiddha** · 05-04-2007, 02:33 AM

QUOTE(Ashok Kumar @ May 3 2007, 12:53 PM)This also supports the view that the vedics didn't consider a fixed time-duration for an akShara as a given.Â Hence the primary importance on counting the syllables, rather than on counting the mAtrAs.


Indeed the vedic meter was mainly based on syllable count though probably there have been always been higher probablities for certain types of syllables occupying certain positions. The gAyatrI example highlights that. In triShtubhs (as in jAtavedase sunavAma...) the constraints are weaker. The mAtrA specifications are there only in certain specialized chants, but are again relative rather than absolute duration specifications. For exampled it is specified that the mAtrA of OM inserted into the last syllable in the sAmidhenI recitation is 3 units, the final OM after the sAmidhenI recitation is a 4 mAtrA one.

In the nAsadIya sUktaM it is specified that certain "I" are relatively 3 mAtras like "upari svidAstI3t"

So the elongation is relative to the how the reciter normal pronounces a short vowel (the duration of which is not specified).

05-04-2007, 02:52 AM

Bodhi:
I admit my observation could stem from a narrow skewed data set. That is what I wanted to know, if it was skewed, for I have never heard anybody say aloud the Gayatri mantram in my household nor in friend's circle. Neither have I heard Gayatri mantram in any temple in the South. Whereas I have chanced on its recital in few Hindi movies.

As the saying goes: "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not." What is said in sastras etc might be fine and dandy, but have not seen many ritually following them.

Have you ever heard Gayatri recited by a tamilian who is not a brahmin? I haven't.

Thanks for elaborating on the yagas and classification. It was informative.

05-04-2007, 02:53 AM

SwamyG,
I am from north and never been to South India except AP. I can only say about North. In North India, there is no restriction at all. Even women wear white thread ( Janeu/Janou).

05-04-2007, 02:53 AM

QUOTE(Bodhi @ May 4 2007, 02:03 AM)a) tAmasic jApa - loudly pronouncing the mantra, using throat
b) rajasic jApa - only self can hear, using talavya
c) sAttvik - only mAnasik - no sound in physical eather

then there is very respected ajapA jApa, which very crudely explained is to hear and see the ishta mantra by meditating upon it, rather than reciting it.

Re: ajapA-japa

IIRC this japa happens automatically without any effort from the chanter. It is like an automaton inside that keeps on repeating the chant irrespective of what a person may be indulged in doing outside. This is a kind of silent japa but without any conscious effort by the chanter. In fact it takes conscious effort to stop the ajapA-japa.

Typically the progression of the practice of japa would go from loud, whispered, silent and then to ajapA. After chanting a mantra for a long time one often finds that mantra starts chanting itself! <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /> This is the ajapA. Even during sleep or dream one may find that japa was going on completely on its own.

05-04-2007, 02:58 AM

QUOTE(SwamyG @ May 4 2007, 02:52 AM)Bodhi:
I admit my observation could stem from a narrow skewed data set. That is what I wanted to know, if it was skewed, for I have never heard anybody say aloud the Gayatri mantram in my household nor in friend's circle. Neither have I heard Gayatri mantram in any temple in the South. Whereas I have chanced on its recital in few Hindi movies.

SwamyG,

In north India, in many pUjAs, a vedic homa or fire-sacrifice is also performed. I have repeatedly heard gAyatrI mantra sung loudly during those homas.

05-04-2007, 03:00 AM

QUOTE(Mudy @ May 4 2007, 02:53 AM)SwamyG,
I am from north and never been to South India. I can only say about North. In North India, there is no restriction at all.Â Even women wear white thread ( Janeu/Janou).
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Mudy: Let me state what should be by now obvious - I am a south Indian. I have visited North as a tourist. My fascination is the differences in our narrations. I am yet to see (I mean know or hear) any tamilian lady wearing "poonal" - sacred thread.

So in the North, do the women wear it regularly or only on special occasions?

05-04-2007, 03:03 AM

Ashok and Bodhi:
Do you know under what japa category would Transcendal Meditation come in?

05-04-2007, 03:08 AM

QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ May 4 2007, 02:33 AM)The mAtrA specifications are there only in certain specialized chants, but are again relative rather than absolute duration specifications. For exampled it is specified that the mAtrA of OM inserted into the last syllable in the sAmidhenI recitation is 3 units, the final OM after the sAmidhenI recitation is a 4 mAtrA one.

In the nAsadIya sUktaM it is specified thatÂ certain "I" are relatively 3 mAtras like "upari svidAstI3t"

So the elongation is relative to the how the reciter normal pronounces a short vowel (the duration of which is not specified).

That is consistent with mAtrA-lakShaNam. Duration of a mAtrA is arbitrarily chosen depending upon the desired speed of the chant. It also mentions fractional mAtrAs. Some akSharas that form the nidhanas can last 6 mAtrAs.

05-04-2007, 03:08 AM

QUOTEMudy: Let me state what should be by now obvious - I am a south Indian. I have visited North as a tourist. My fascination is the differences in our narrations. I am yet to see (I mean know or hear) any tamilian lady wearing "poonal" - sacred thread.

So in the North, do the women wear it regularly or only on special occasions? 
Yes, they do wear regularly and change thread on Day of Rakhi or any major festive occasion. There is no restriction on caste also. It was started by Arya Samaj. My late Grandmother used to wear Janou. My mother still does it. Itâs not an exception.

05-04-2007, 03:26 AM

QUOTE(SwamyG @ May 4 2007, 03:03 AM)Ashok and Bodhi:
Do you know under what japa category would Transcendal Meditation come in?
[right][snapback]68247[/snapback][/right]

SwamyG,

TM is a meditation technique. Usually japa forms only one part of any meditation technique. And all japas tend to follow the progression that Bodhi mentioned.

Also, in meditation terms, ajapA japa is a sign of moving on from dhAraNA (concentration) to dhyAna (meditation).

dhyAna is described by a concentration that is "flowing" and which keeps on renewing the object of concentration, like in a feedback loop. A dhAraNA can last few seconds, as there is no feedback. You hold some image in your mind and it fades away in few seconds. However long you can hold it is the duration of dhAraNA and it is counted in seconds. dhyAna is when a certain "flow" develops, and the image that you are trying to hold within renews itself by feeding itself back. Thats why dhyAna is often described as "taila-dhArAvat" like a "smooth flow of oil", which is very smooth and may not appear moving, but if you watch closely you see the flow.
----------------------------------
Re: sacred thread for women, the practice was (re)started by Sw. Dayananda of Arya samAja. But outside the Arya-samAjis the practice is not very common.

The present truth is that there is no effective barrier left for anyone from any caste or gender to get sacred thread or to chant gAyatrI. The more poignant fact is that young people are nowadays perhaps no more interested in gaining these "privileges".

05-04-2007, 03:27 AM

Mudy wrote:
QUOTEYes, they do wear regularly and change thread on Day of Rakhi or any major festive occasion. There is no restriction on caste also. It was started by Arya Samaj. My late Grandmother used to wear Janou. My mother still does it. Itâs not an exception.


Interesting, I learned something today. Probably just like men, they wear beneath their inner garments. Some men are innovative, they have important keys or safety pins "tied" to their 'poonal'. Women display their innovation by having safety pins on their "thali" (mangal sootra). I guess they got innovative in the days when not many wore pants with pockets. Did you know a Chennai Saree store has come out with Sarees with pockets! Of course cell phones drove the innovation.

05-04-2007, 04:12 AM

QUOTE(Ashok Kumar @ May 3 2007, 05:23 PM)After chanting a mantra for a long time one often finds that mantra starts chanting itself! <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />Â This is the ajapA.Â Even during sleep or dream one may find that japa was going on completely on its own.
[right][snapback]68243[/snapback][/right]


Very well expressed. In fact, ajapa-japa continues not just in dream, but even after death of the physical body! There is a beautiful story in Vipassana tradition about this ajapa-japa from Tibet.

The syllable OM and mantra Om Mani Padme Hum are the primary dhAraNas (in beginning) used in Tibetean japa techniques. There was a great bauddha yogi Tilopa, who had realized a very deep state of ajapa Japa. His whole body always used to hum the sound of OM slowly and softly, without his efforts, for everyone to hear. When he died, the sound instead of dying, became even louder. His fellow sannyasis, after his death, kept his body in a samadhi, which also continued to emit that sound of Om.

One addition here. It is important to undertand the difference between the "humming" that happens if mind is kept in repition of anything including a third class remix song - and mantra-siddha ajapa-japa. Ajapa-japa is a 'state' where the whole existance become the realization of the ishta mantra, and ista mantra alone remains, as in true advaita. In Sant mat, this is known as anahat-naad as Sant Kabir called it. In Sufis too, the state is very well known and documented.

**Hauma Hamiddha** · (This post was last modified: 05-04-2007, 04:46 AM by Hauma Hamiddha.)

In all traditions typically the gAyatrI japa during saMdhya (done by all Aryas) is silently performed. The sAvitrI (gAyatrI of savitA) is silently recited during veda pArAyaNaM or svAdhyAya. However, in several rituals its recited aloud often accompanied by water or fire offerings. The original gR^ihya/shrauta traditions predate north-south split etc. Mudy must be refering the custom of Arya Samaj founded Dayanand Sarasvati and his successors. Some smR^itis say that saMskAras are performed for women. Some specifically say that during the saMskAras for women the mantras are inaudibly deployed. This is not common practice in modern India.
As per the tantra-s women and 4th varNas might receive a tAntric dIkSha of upanayana which makes them eligible perform the rites prescribed in those texts. We have statues and vIrakal-s in south India where there are women shown wearing the upavIta- so at some point this happened in the south. One of these statues is of a great tantric female guru seen in Karnataka not far from where I was born.

-->By the time I hit submit many posts seem to have passed by from AK and B that have already clarified the matter.

05-04-2007, 05:32 AM

QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ May 4 2007, 04:41 AM)As per the tantra-s women and 4th varNas might receive a tAntric dIkSha of upanayana which makes them eligible perform the rites prescribed in those texts. We have statues and vIrakal-s in south India where there are women shown wearing the upavIta- so at some point this happened in the south. One of these statues is of a great tantric female guru seen in Karnataka not far from where I was born.

Many great tantras have such gems! Unfortunately many so called tantras are filled with horrors too. It seems at some point some people with a penchant for black-magic wrote a bunch of texts and tried to buy respectability by giving them the form of tantra Agama, i.e. in the form of a dialog between shiva and shakti.

There hasn't been a collective hindu attempt to decide upon the hindu canon. Budhists did it, christians did it, muslims did it. But in hinduism anyone can write up a text and give it a form of Agama or upanishad (e.g. allopanishad) or purAna, and over centuries that starts getting counted as "official" hindu scripture.

There is a need for some house cleaning. Of course it has to be done with care and the principle shouldn't be majority deciding which texts to toss out, but whether any minority within hinduism would care to defend such texts.

This will also have salutary effects on creating a proper "hindu narrative".

05-04-2007, 08:10 PM

QUOTE(Ashok Kumar @ May 4 2007, 01:02 AM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ May 4 2007, 04:41 AM)As per the tantra-s women and 4th varNas might receive a tAntric dIkSha of upanayana which makes them eligible perform the rites prescribed in those texts. We have statues and vIrakal-s in south India where there are women shown wearing the upavIta- so at some point this happened in the south. One of these statues is of a great tantric female guru seen in Karnataka not far from where I was born.

Many great tantras have such gems! Unfortunately many so called tantras are filled with horrors too. It seems at some point some people with a penchant for black-magic wrote a bunch of texts and tried to buy respectability by giving them the form of tantra Agama, i.e. in the form of a dialog between shiva and shakti.

........................
This will also have salutary effects on creating a proper "hindu narrative".
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</div>

This reminds me, is it also true that Mahabharat originally also had only 25,000 verses and 65,000 or 75,000 verses were added to it later?

05-04-2007, 08:39 PM

I also have a query:

We all have on numerous occasions been invited by our friends & relatives to join in the âSatnarayan kathaâ. I have gone to this pooja and heard the priest tell all of us of 3-4 stories, one of the stories goes something like this: A merchantsâs ships loaded with goods got lost in Sea & when the merchant performed the âSatnarayan kathaâ, he found his ships and again become prosperous & happy.

But strangely enough, ask a priest or anyone else what was this âSatnarayan kathaâ that the man performed that helped all his ships to return safely, half the people donât understand the question itself and others insist this itself is âSatnarayan kathaâ. I tell them there are examples of people who performed âSatnarayan kathaâ and found happiness but what are the contents of âSatnarayan kathaâ that these people, whose example is given, performed and no one has a clear answer to this question.

Could this be another example of people performing a ritual for decades but having now forgotten what was the main story of âSatnarayanâ in the first place? Could anyone on this forum clarify what was the original âSatnarayan kathaâ as I have never really got a satisfactory answer from anyone I have talked to so farâ¦

05-04-2007, 09:20 PM

Ashok:
I am with you as far as any house cleaning goes.

QUOTEThere hasn't been a collective hindu attempt to decide upon the hindu canon. Budhists did it, christians did it, muslims did it. But in hinduism anyone can write up a text and give it a form of Agama or upanishad (e.g. allopanishad) or purAna, and over centuries that starts getting counted as "official" hindu scripture.

The portion I have highlighted is what I like about Hinduism. Heck, Hinduism allows even me to write stuff. How <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/specool.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='specool.gif' /> is that?

Kidding apart, why not let Ashok, Husky, Bodhi, Shiv, Hauma etc write, and if people like to read them and follow them so be it. It has both pros and cons. People who want to criticize Hinduism would pick the parts written badly, or by "evil" people to say "Look, Hinduism is disgusting". But some people are going to pick up the other invigorating parts and glorify them.

05-04-2007, 09:31 PM

Ajatshatru
QUOTEThis reminds me, is it also true that Mahabharat originally also had only 25,000 verses and 65,000 or 75,000 verses were added to it later?

From the horse's mouth (not really, it is just a translation)

QUOTEVyasa executed the compilation of the Bharata, exclusive of the episodes originally in twenty-four thousand verses; and so much only is called by the learned as the Bharata. Afterwards, he composed an epitome in one hundred and fifty verses, consisting of the introduction with the chapter of contents. This he first taught to his son Suka; and afterwards he gave it to others of his disciples who were possessed of the same qualifications. After that he executed another compilation, consisting of six hundred thousand verses. Of those, thirty hundred thousand are known in the world of the Devas; fifteen hundred thousand in the world of the Pitris: fourteen hundred thousand among the Gandharvas, and one hundred thousand in the regions of mankind. Narada recited them to the Devas, Devala to the Pitris, and Suka published them to the Gandharvas, Yakshas, and Rakshasas: and in this world they were recited by Vaisampayana, one of the disciples of Vyasa, a man of just principles and the first among all those acquainted with the Vedas. Know that I, Sauti, have also repeated one hundred thousand verses.

reference: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01002.htm
Mahabharatam as translated by K.M.Ganguli, and it is available online.

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