<!--QuoteBegin-Raju+May 10 2007, 11:16 PM-->QUOTE(Raju @ May 10 2007, 11:16 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Lots of Gods are depicted as blue in color. Any particular reason behind it ?
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There are many explanations given, such as blue meaning expansiveness or infinity of the sky etc. "Blue" light is also called the light of "higher knowledge".
In all the reports "blue" deities actually appear to be blue when the devotee/yogi/sAdhaka gets a "darshan".
<!--QuoteBegin-Abhijit+May 10 2007, 11:50 AM-->QUOTE(Abhijit @ May 10 2007, 11:50 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->and also why the severed head could not be put back). The ganas found an elephant head and Lord Shiva bestowed life on the boy with an elephant head - Lord Ganesh.
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While there are many versions of the tale explaining the elephant head of vinAyaka in this version the original head had been eaten by the bhUtas of rudra.
In another version which vague resembles the pravargya myth shani was called by umA to see her new son and his sight caused the head of her son to separate and fly into the sky. Then viShNu is supposed to have fixed an elephant head. Even in the shiva purANa version viShNu was the one who brings the elephant head for rudra to perform the grafting.
In any case such issues are best discussed in the itihAsa purANa thread as mentioned before. Please stick to the main narrative focus here.
My "blue" narrative :-)
After Shiva drinks the poison, Parvati runs and clutches his neck so that the poison does not enter the rest of the body. His neck turns blue - hence "Neel Kant" and the name Neelkant.
It is possible that the poison traveled to some lower parts of his face. And artists are depicting the entire face to be blue.
And regarding finding the head for grafting. I don't think it is any "first" head. It was to be a head found in one particular direction. If memory serves me right, the direction was North.
I was out of town for a few days - in Coimbatore specifically. I visted an ancient Shiva temple at Perur yesterday. Fresh in my mind when I went there was this excellent (300 MB) documentary linked by Bharatvarsh in another thread:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...raja+raja+chola
The temple's inner sanctum is about 1500 years old, but the outer portions date back to later eras - right upto the Vijayanagar kings.
The place is too big and too ornate for justice to be done in the 20 minutes I had to see the place. But what caught my eye intrigued me.
Every pillar has various figures carved as bas-reliefs. Presumably each figure has a story totell - each is a narrative that I would like to understand and hear about. But one pillar caught my attention because it had the figurine if a female in meditation. She was not merely topless - all the female figurines have exposed breasts - but this figurine showed the genitalia as well - but she is obviously meditating. Suddenly - I realised that on a face of the pillar at right angles to this woman was the carving of a man with a pointed beard. A pointed beard such as is depicted in pictures of the Portuguese. The man is shown with a wide grin on his face - this is the only figurine that I noticed showing an expression of emotion and also the ONLY figurine of a bearded man. All other male figurines are clean shaven. What is remarkable about this pointy-bearded grinning man is that he is shown with a huge erect penis pointed at the meditating nude woman around the corner of the pillar.
I do not know what this means - but somehow - I cannot dismiss the thought that this depicts a lustful invader slobbering after a woman in meditation (the woman is facing the sanctum) I could be mistaken. This could be a story from Hindu mythology. But it is a mystery. No photos allowed - so I will probably do a drawing of the man from memory and post a link. But I swear that this is the face of the man - same lips - but grinning
http://www.surcouf.net/leshommes/image/vdegama.jpg
Meditating female figurines/statues are usually labeled as "Yogini".
The term "yogini" can mean a human female practitioner of yoga, or a class of female deities (64 yoginis).
Not sure about the beareded male figurine.
05-13-2007, 01:18 AM
(This post was last modified: 05-13-2007, 02:46 AM by Bodhi.)
sengotuvel, I had the opportuity to visit the ancient pillared Shiva temple of Perur you are talking about, on a couple of occasions, though certainly missed out that pillar. Some of my thoughts.
In Tantrik Shaiva world, Mahadeva is often depicted with moustaches and some times with beard too, particularly in Himalayan traditions. Sri Pashupati Nath is often shown bearded, seated in meditation. Tibetean, Burmese, Thai sculptures and arts depict Bhagwan Buddha, Siddhas, Yogis, and particularly Mahadeva in beard and moustaches too, in meditation or in various yog-mudras (postures).
See this for example - Mahadev in meditation, seated in ardha-siddha-asana (half -siddha posture) from a temple of Thailand:
<img src='http://www.sundial.thai-isan-lao.com/images/shiva_meditating-.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
84 mahasiddha yogis in Tibetea Bauddha traditions are almost always depicted in pointed short beards and chinese-like moustaches. One such image I had posted in one of the threads, but could not find that now.
However, coming to this particular and very interesting case that you have described, does appears to be different, and certainly not depicting a yogi or siddha, going by the posture, and bhava you mentioned.
From the historical standpoint, this temple is a very ancient temple, going back to 8th/9th century, and outer portion was probably damaged during the raids of Khilji's armies under his eunuch general Mallik Kafuur, and rebuilt later by one of the later Kings.
Now, Cholas had a clear understanding and insight of the Islamic expansionism - not only military but also through the other means like the fakirs going around and converting people. In various temple images, Cholas have always tried to educate their people and even coming generations (us!!!) to be aware of the invaders. This message has often been sculpted along side the sculptures of Siddhars and Yogis and Yoginis on the temple walls, pillars, and the vimanas, though often outside the temple and not inside.
In a more popular case, have you noticed the very famous meditating-cat-figurine on the Vimana of another Chola temple? In this figure, right in the midst of other Yogis and Yoginis, a cat is shown meditating, standing in tAdAsana/vrikshasana with arms raised up in Namaskar mudra and eyes half closed. Some mice are shown being carelessly drawn towards her. The message is, the cat is only pretending to be meditating, while her real intention is to feed upon the mice. Those mice which are not careful would come close, thinking of her as a Yogini, and she would pounce upon them and devour them. There are other such sculpture examples too, in particular in Chola arts.
My speculation would be that th ecase you described is one of this category. Though I would say it is only a speculation.
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In a more popular case, have you noticed the very famous meditating-cat-figurine on the Vimana of another Chola temple? In this figure, right in the midst of other Yogis and Yoginis, a cat is shown meditating, standing in tAdAsana/vrikshasana with arms raised up in Namaskar mudra and eyes half closed. Some mice are shown being carelessly drawn towards her. The message is, the cat is only pretending to be meditating, while her real intention is to feed upon the mice. Those mice which are not careful would come close, thinking of her as a Yogini, and she would pounce upon them and devour them. There are other such sculpture examples too, in particular in Chola arts.
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Interesting stuff Bodhi - but I quote only the passage above to indicate that visuals of these figurines can be seen in the documentary linked by Bharatvarsh in the Temples thread - which I have cross posted above. The 300 MB download is well worth it - and I intend to burn a few CDs for distribution and posterity.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+May 13 2007, 01:18 AM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ May 13 2007, 01:18 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, Cholas had a clear understanding and insight of the Islamic expansionism - not only military but also through the other means like the fakirs going around and converting people. In various temple images, Cholas have always tried to educate their people and even coming generations (us!!!) to be aware of the invaders. This message has often been sculpted along side the sculptures of Siddhars and Yogis and Yoginis on the temple walls, pillars, and the vimanas, though often outside the temple and not inside.
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Interesting, can you offer more info. on this subject? Any photos available on some of the material?
<!--QuoteBegin-SwamyG+May 13 2007, 12:14 AM-->QUOTE(SwamyG @ May 13 2007, 12:14 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Any photos available on some of the material?
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Apparently, the finest example of the cat-figurine, is captured in the video at the URL provided by Bharatavarsh, mentioned by sengotuvel.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+May 13 2007, 01:18 AM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ May 13 2007, 01:18 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->In a more popular case, have you noticed the very famous meditating-cat-figurine on the Vimana of another Chola temple? In this figure, right in the midst of other Yogis and Yoginis, a cat is shown meditating, standing in tAdAsana/vrikshasana with arms raised up in Namaskar mudra and eyes half closed. Some mice are shown being carelessly drawn towards her. The message is, the cat is only pretending to be meditating, while her real intention is to feed upon the mice. Those mice which are not careful would come close, thinking of her as a Yogini, and she would pounce upon them and devour them.Â
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This is from the Mahabalipuram (Pallava sculpture, not Chola) rock face sculpture in a section depicting descent of gangA from the heaven onto earth.
A close up: Look in front of the elephant's trunk
Look at the right bottom corner:
<img src='http://i.pbase.com/o4/30/52730/1/56383419.rathassculptures12.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Or near the elephants trunk:
Another image
Mahablipuram Rock-face-sculpture
http://www.pbase.com/yardbird/india_tami...abalipuram
Yet again it takes a Western entity - TLC - to tell one of the glorious narrations of the Hindu India.
For some reason the cat-figurine reminds me of a story about a cat fooling some mice. Any Panchatantra stories of this nature? Gosh...I know there is a story just can't remember. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-SwamyG+May 13 2007, 10:51 AM-->QUOTE(SwamyG @ May 13 2007, 10:51 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->For some reason the cat-figurine reminds me of a story about a cat fooling some mice. Any Panchatantra stories of this nature? Gosh...I know there is a story just can't remember. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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There is a story but that involves a cat, some birds and an old vulture. The story in brief is:
Some birds who used to live on a tree felt pity for an old blind vulture named "jaradgava" (whose senses are getting old), and they used to bring him some food in return for him guarding their young on the tree.
A cat ( mArjAra ), came there and pretended to be indulged in a difficult religious rite (chAndrAyaNa vrata). He told the vulture that he had eaten too many mice etc and to atone for those sins he was doing penance and had turned totally vegetarian. He gained confidence of the old vulture by his false peity, and started eating the birds young behind the vulture's back one after another and dumped the bones in the old vulture's "kotara" (tree hollow).
Eventually birds became very worried and decided to search the vulture's kotara. And finding the bones of their young there, attacked the vulture and killed him.
<!--QuoteBegin-SwamyG+May 13 2007, 10:49 AM-->QUOTE(SwamyG @ May 13 2007, 10:49 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet again it takes a Western entity - TLC -Â to tell one of the glorious narrations of the Hindu India.
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Narration is an art that many of us seem to have lost. There is a big difference between blandly saying that a temple occupies "X acres" and saying that it can hold 100 Taj Mahals or the Kremlin, Versailes. Westminster and still have place to spare"
Hi Folks,
I was reading about JP Narayan, when I came accross the following piece:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Hindu Revivalism</b>
At the root of all-pervasive problem of the crisis of character is the decline of religion. I wish to voice my serious concern over the state of Hinduism as it is found in practice. For the educated class, and more so for the young, it has no meaning except for certain ceremonies which are performed without faith to conform to social customs. For some important sections of the Hindu community, piety or religiosity is only a means to obtain divine sanction for unethical behaviour, such as black-marketing, tax-evasion, profiteering, etc. For the mass of Hindus, religion means nothing more than a few mythological tales, crass superstition, some taboos and empty observances.
Religion as a formative, humanizing, ennobling force hardly seems to have survived. The great movements of religious reform of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries have spent their driving force. The outer dead shell of Karma kanda is all that seems to be left of Hindu religion, and nothing or little of the inner core. In its outward form our religion still sanctions the hierarchy of castes, even the crime of untouchability.
Between word and deed there are contradictions that balk the imagination. It is not uncommon to meet the catholicity of Vedantism in words accompanied with the most narrow-minded caste observances in deeds. We talk glibly about the tolerance of Hindu religion, yet do not raise an eyebrow when men, women and children are butchered for belonging to another religion. Only recently, no less than a hundred murders were committed because, to begin with, a non-Hindu student, while protesting deep reverence for one of our departed national leaders, refused to garland his bust on the ground that his religion forbade every form of idol worship.
There is a good deal of current talk about Hindu revivalism. I believe firmly that for Hindu society, revival is essential if it is to put forth its best and reach its height of achievement. But the revivalism now taking place will push Hindu society further backward, and may incidentally destroy even what we have of the unity of our nation. The Hindu religion is a strange mixture of good and bad, sublime and low, the most emancipated thought and bigoted obscurantism. What happens to the future of Hindu society depends upon which of these strains are to be selected, nourished and propagated.
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<!--QuoteBegin-rishi+May 14 2007, 06:26 PM-->QUOTE(rishi @ May 14 2007, 06:26 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi Folks,
I was reading about JP Narayan, when I came accross the following piece:
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<b>Hindu Revivalism</b>
For some important sections of the Hindu community, piety or religiosity is only a means to obtain divine sanction for unethical behaviour, such as black-marketing, tax-evasion, profiteering, etc.
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Why is all this behavior unethical? I understand it is illegal, but why is it unethical? JP's problem was he was a socialist, one of that large number of idiots who managed to destroy India socially and economically.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But the revivalism now taking place will push Hindu society further backward, and may incidentally destroy even what we have of the unity of our nation.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think we will have to address this particular fear eventually - that Hindu society's existence is predicated on the political unity of India. I think this is quite unfounded, and quite counter-productive.
Vishwas: Are you suggesting black marketing, tax-evasion.... are hall marks of good behavior?
Martin Luther's reformation of the Church was also due to granting papal indulgences for unethical behavior.
Meanwhile please read pages 5,6& 7 of this newsletter from SV Temple, Lanham, Maryland.
Link: http://www.ssvt.org/events/newsletter/May_...letter_2007.pdf
An e-mail exchange
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Brother Steve,
The exchanges began with a question regarding what did Tagore mean by 'our goal.' I've assumed that he had a Hindu sense of what the goal of life is and tried to explain what I guessed he might have meant. <b> I personally believe the Hindu explanation is indeed the right one, and provides clarification to the deepest meaning of the Bible and Jesus' Gospel. Reasonable and well-intentioned people can disagree on this point. It's ok with me that you don't agree that Hinduism (and Islam and Buddhism and Zoroastrianism etc etc) sheds light on the meaning of the Bible.</b>
Brother Earl
Earl,
<b>Sorry, but I cannot agree all religions are unified in this sense. If you believe the Bible, it says that it was Satan who said that he would ascend the throne and be like God, or become God.</b>
The Bible has a very different message then self-actualization. Check out Hebrews as one example. It says in the second chapter that "because of God's great kindness, Jesus tasted death for everyone in all the world.  And it was right and proper that God, who made everything for his own glory, should allow Jesus to suffer, for in doing this he was bringing vast multitudes of God's people to heaven; for his suffering made Jesus a perfect leader, one fit to bring them into their salvation. ......... We who have been made holy by Jesus, now have the same Father he has. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call us his brothers. For he says in the book of Psalms, "I will talk to my brothers about God my Father, and together we will sing His praises". It warns us that we must not neglect so great a salvation than other than to trust in the shed blood of Jesus to cleanse us from our sins.
<b>This seems very different and diametrically opposed to the Hindu ideas of God and reality. It clearly speaks of real things as being made and that you and I are not God. It also very clearly emphasizes that we must acknowledge the fact that we are sinners and need a saviour, not self actualization. And by the way, the Bible is "Eastern wisdom" as well, and would add, the true wisdom.</b>
- Steve
Earl wrote:
<b>I am going to make the assumption that Tagore held that all souls have the same life-goal, since that is a fundamental tenet of Hindu philosophy.
Another fundamental tenet of that philosophy is that Atman IS Paramatman. Atma refers to the individualized soul (I believe the Sanskrit root is the same as the root of the Greek atom); Paramatman means literally 'oversoul' or 'greatest soul.' This means God.</b>
So...<b>the principle is that the search is to realize the true nature of your individualized soul or self. When you come to know your true nature, you discover that you are none other than Infinite and Holy God, for only God truly exists.</b>
The motto of Sufism Reoriented is 'God alone is Real, and the Goal of Life is to be united with Him through Love.' It is my opinion that this is what Tagore is saying. <b>I would further offer that this is the principle that underlies all true Religion -- recognition of the Real Existence and seeking to realize that Real Existence within one's own being through Love -- of God and neighbor.
May we prosper in the One, True Religion -- Love for God.</b>
Earl
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From: Stephen
However, you quoted Tagore to say "our activity", not his activity. So I don't see that Ali is incorrect. Tagore's saying seemed to be directed toward everyone's personal activity.
<b>Referring to your answer, by god-realization, do you mean to say that this is a realization that says "I, myself, am God!" ??? Clarification please!
- Steve</b>
Earl wrote:
<b>Ali's thought highlights a defect in circulating one-line quotations lifted out of their context. One would have to consult the body of Tagore's work to know what he presumed the goal to be.</b> Since he was a Hindu, he probably understood the goal of life to be Self-realization (God-realization). <b>If I am correct, then he is saying that we should seek our true Self, God, in the midst of all of our worldly activity -- not just in temple, church, mosque worship or on retreat isolated from everyday life.</b>
Though I agree with him, I still want to retire in about one year -- switch to other everyday activities in which to seek my true Self! That may appear to be, and indeed may be, retreating from the battlefield
Earlism
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From: Ali
Subject: RE: Today's Eastern Wisdom
<b>However, the dilemma we face is being certain that our goal aligns with the Divine purpose for our lives¬to err here is to spend our lives on a perpetual search.
Just a thought!
Ali </b>
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From: Earl
Subject: Today's Eastern Wisdom
<b>It is in the very heart of our activity that we search for our goal. -- Rabindranath Tagore</b>
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