Progress Of Indic Languages Vs English

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Tamil world is 'poo', and as you pointed, related with Telugu poolu and Hindi phool (Latin flor, and english flora, flower). But what is that Sanskrit root word? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are two possibilities I can think of, Pushpa (becomes Pushpam in Telugu) and that Puvvu for flower can be a colloquial form derived from this or Phulla which in Sanskrit means fully blown flower.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->puspa (p. 165) [ púsh-pa ] n. flower, blossom (--°ree;, a. f. â, after names of plants generally î); flowers= menses; flowery speeches, gallantry, declara tion of love; m. topaz.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/romadict....table=macdonell<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->phulla (p. 190) [ phulla ] pp. (&root;1. phal) expanded, blown (flower); wide open, dilated (eyes); puffed, inflated (cheeks); beaming, smiling (face): -na, a. inflating (--°ree; -pura, n. N. of a city; -&half;utpala, n. (having blooming lotuses), N. of a lake.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/romadict....table=macdonell<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems its from Phulla going by this:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->H फूल phūl [S. फुल्लं], s.m. A flower, a blossom;--a boss, knob, stud, bunch of ribands, rosette, cockade;--the menses (of which children are the blossoms):--a swelling;--a spark of fire; lights or fire (seen at night); the bones of a corpse after partial cremation;--a ceremony performed (by Musalmāns) in honour of a

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologi...859.0.99.platts<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Hauma Hamiddha]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Tamil world is 'poo', and as you pointed, related with Telugu poolu and Hindi phool (Latin flor, and english flora, flower).  But what is that Sanskrit root word?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The correct etymology is:
puShpa [samskR^ita] --> puppa [mahArAShTri/drAviDi prAkR^ita] --> puvvu [drAviDa]
In tamil there is a systematic transformation of saMskR^ita and prAkR^ita internal pa to va.
For example:
apamAnam[Skt]->avamAnaM[Ta]= disrespect
pApa->pAvaM =sin

In the grantha script va and pa are very similar characters. Hence it is possible that this conflation of sounds arose.

The dhAtu puSh- in Skt has the sense "to unfold" or "to fulfil" or "to display". From this comes the basis of puShpa, puShkara, puShkala all of which have effectively comparable semantics. In the brahminical dialect of tamil, puSkalaM means "a lot" or a "large amount" (compare with puShkal for the same in Maharatti)

[Bharatvarsh]

HH can you shed any light on the origin of the word "Sansad" for parliament supposed to have been coined by Veer Savarkar.

[Guest]

HHji, thank you.

In addition to Sansad, also Hindi word pAnI (water) - does it come from Sanskrit pAna (to drink)? Still, in rural Hindi (Awadhi, Bhojpuri, Braja), the more popular word used for water is not pAnI, but jala in vocal and neer in literature. So how come pAnI has become prominent in khadi boli?

What about tannI of Tamil? are they related or independent?

[Guest]

Hindi word "pAnI" is apabhraMsha version of sanskrit word "pAnIya". Other equivalent sanskrit word is "peya". Both mean something drinkable. Therefore pAnI is a bigger class than just water which is "jala". But in hindi pAnI is used to refer to water only.

sansad or sansada = good-gathering or good place for a gathering. "san" or "sam" prefix means good. "sad" root is related with stay or place. Word "sadas" was used for a vedic sacrificial gathering area. "sadana" meaning house comes from the same.

Incidentally "manDapa" literally means "a place for drinking manDa (rice water)". Nowadays it stands for any temporarily covered area for any purpose.

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In addition to Sansad, also Hindi word pAnI (water) - does it come from Sanskrit pAna (to drink)? Still, in rural Hindi (Awadhi, Bhojpuri, Braja), the more popular word used for water is not pAnI, but jala in vocal and neer in literature. So how come pAnI has become prominent in khadi boli? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pani is from Sanskrit, in Telugu it becomes Paniyam & changes meaning to mean any drink not just water, jalam (more literary) and neeru (or neellu) the colloquial are the words for water in Telugu.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->H पानी pānī [S. पानीयं; Prk. पाणिअं], s.m. Water (syn. jal); rain-water, rain (=meṅh); semen, sperm; water or lustre (of a gem, &c.); lustre, sparkle, polish, brightness, beauty; spirit, mettle, blood,

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologi...ct&display=utf8<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What about tannI of Tamil? are they related or independent? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure about that.

[Hauma Hamiddha]

Just to pitch into all the great discussion:

saMsad: saM- together (e.g saMgaMa) sad- to sit/seat/sat (coming from the same PIE root as sit/sat in english, setz in German).
hence samsad- to sit together
saM-gaMa- to go together
The term is used in the veda itself in term of the assembly of the rAjanya, the court of the kuru-pA~nchala or the maithila-s etc.
In the Rig the kANva-s mention that in their region there were 7 saMsad-s or gaNa rAjya that were aided by indra after performing a soma yAga. In other place the kANva-s mention how indra helped in scattering the saMsad of the dasyu-s.

Or as sAdhu-saMsadaM- assembly of good.
There was the saMsadAyana where Arya-s had a debate on intricacies of shrauta performance.

So it is a good natural choice by Savarkar.

[Hauma Hamiddha]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Jun 1 2007, 07:44 AM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Jun 1 2007, 07:44 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Pani is from Sanskrit, in Telugu it becomes Paniyam & changes meaning to mean any drink not just water, jalam (more literary) and neeru (or neellu) the colloquial are the words for water in Telugu.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The tamil word taNNIr (taNNi is a just a slang of the same) is from the same root:
taN- (cold/clean?) nIr- water as the above in telugu and kaNNaDa.

this nIr is unrelated in any way to pAnIyaM which is from the root "to drink" as AK mentioned above.

The nIr is believed to be a loan word in Skt from proto-draviDian by western Indologists. However, it should be noted that it comes very early in saMskR^ita. In the shatapatha brAhmaNa the river in Bihar- sadAnIra is mentioned = always with water, which is clearly explained in the brAhmaNa passage. there are also saMskR^ita words like nIraja- lotus; analog of abja.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Jun 1 2007, 10:30 AM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Jun 1 2007, 10:30 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->What about tannI of Tamil?  are they related or independent?
[right][snapback]69622[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It could have come from the word "thaneer" that means water. Like in any other language, water is called by different names. Thaneer is just one of them. I do not know the etymology of the word thaneer itself. Some words that are used:
1) <b>tanni </b>(brahmin and non-brahmin dialects). This is the most common word used these days.
2) Thaneer, Neer (usally found in the written-tamil as opposed to the colloquial tamil)
3) jalam (found only in the brahmin dialects, especially during ritualistic ceremonies)

Also the word "thootham" can be found in brahmin dialects. This word is particularly used with babies/toddlers.

Toddy, country made liquor, is also called tanni.

Other words are probably used in literature and such.

Added: The drink tea is called "tae<i>neer</i>"

[Guest]

Yes, Thanir and Jalam is what many people in Tamil Nadu use.

Tanni means any water: it can be water for taking a bath, or a pool of water after the rains. Jalam is also used as water, and like Thanir often used for drinking water.
<!--QuoteBegin-SwamyG+Jun 1 2007, 08:45 PM-->QUOTE(SwamyG @ Jun 1 2007, 08:45 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Also the word "thootham" can be found in brahmin dialects. This word is particularly used with babies/toddlers.[right][snapback]69635[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->SwamyG, that does it! Let's take it outside. You've called me a toddler! <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Thootham is from <i>teertham</i> which is the word used by the generation of grandparents in my family for designating <i>drinking</i> water (of course, they say teertham not thootam). Teertham is what water is called after Puja offerings, and this is what it is called in temples as well. People always know they can drink this.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Added: The drink tea is called "tae<i>neer</i>"<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Didn't know this. A pun on existing phraseology perhaps?

[Bharatvarsh]

Here are the Telugu months, most people who list Telugu as their mother tongue do not know them!!!
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Telugu Months

Chaithramu  (March-April)
Vaisaakhamu  (April-May)
Jyeshtta  (May June)
Aashaadhamu  (June-July)
Sraavanamu  (July-August)
Bhaadhrapadamu  (August-September)
Aasveeyujamu  (September-October)
Kaarthikamu  (October-November)
Maargaseershamu (November-December)
Pushyamu (December-January)
Maakhamu (January-February)
Phaalgunamu (February-March)

http://www.vepachedu.org/months.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some people will tell you that they speak Telugu but they wouldn't even know days of the week, for their benefit:

Monday - Somavaaram
Tuesday - Mangalavaaram
Wednesday - Budhavaaram
Thursday - Guruvaaram
Friday - Sukravaaram
Saturday - Sanivaaram
Sunday - Adivaaram

[Guest]

Thanks Bharatvarsh. Those names of months and days are essencially in Sanskrit and followed as that in majority parts of Bharat. Better term could be Hindu calendar and names, not just Telugu.

***************
One question to Gurus:

sadar sivahi nai ab maatha, baranau visad ram-guna-gatha
samvat solah-sai-ekateesa, karahu katha hari pad dhari seesa
naumi bhaumvaar madhumasa, avadh puri yah charit prakasa
(Sri Tulsi Ram Charit Manas, Bal Kand)

[First respectfully bowing to Lord Shiva, I begin this saga of glory of qualities of Rama. Placing head at the feet of vishNu, Tulsi begins this recitation of Rama's story in the year of vikram samvat 1631. On a Tuesday, the 9th day of madhumasa (chaitra month), the story sheds its first light in the city of Ayodhya.]

In above, Tuesday is referred to as BhaumvAra and Chaitra as madhumasa. Was that a common term for mangalvAra at some point? I had heard elders/grand parents use the term Bhaumvara too.

[Bharatvarsh]

Bodhiji while it is true that many parts of Bharat have the same names, there are some differences which is why I called it Telugu calendar and days, for example 2 day names are different in Panjabi and Telugu, one of them is Sunday which is Rivivar in both Panjabi and Hindi (Ravivaar) and Thursday which is Virwar/Birwar in Panjabi.

Also many of the Tamil & Malayalam months and days are different:

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~siddhart/tamilnadu/CAL/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayalam_calendar

Coming to your question, Bhaumvara is not used in Telugu today but Telugu also has 3 names for Tuesday, mangalavaaram is used now but the other words are angaarakavaaram and bhaumyavaaram both of which may have been used in the past.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->अंगार angār

H अंगार angār [S. अङ्गार],

s.m. Heated charcoal, a live coal, fire, firebrand, a bit of fire, cinder, spark; burning matter; charcoal; Tuesday:--angār-par (or angāroṅ-par) loṭnā, To roll on fire (as a religious austerity); to be very restless or disquieted, to lie (as it were) on thorns; to burn with rage, envy, or jealousy:--angāre barasnā, To rain sparks of fire, to rain fire:--angāre-kā

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologi...ct&display=utf8<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->S भौम bhaum, adj. & s.m. Pertaining to the earth, or the ground, terrestrial:--the planet Mars; hell; ambergris:--bhaum-wār, s.m. 'Marsʼ-day,' Tuesday (=mangal).

भोम्पू bhompū

H भोम्पू bhompū, s.m.=bhoṅpū, q.v.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologi...ct&display=utf8<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Coming to Madhumaasam, it is still used in Telugu songs and poems to mean spring but the Calendar uses Chaitramu.

[Guest]

Bharatvarshji,

Since the days are named after the 5 planets, the Sun and Moon, probably their synonyms are derived too based upon the qualities of those nakshatras.

Sunday is Ravivaar - and Ravi is Aditya - doer of the beginning - probably therefore Adivaar. In Hindi too 'itvaar' (an apabransha of Adivaar) is still more popular for Sunday, as compared to Ravivaar.

Likewise for Thursday, Vrihaspativaar is the name, from which Guruvaar came - Vrihaspati is the Sura-Guru. I am not sure where did Veevaar come from, though.

In same way, Angarakavaar can probably be explained for Mangalvaar.

Not sure how it relates to Bhaumvaar...

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->rakamu (p. 1067) [ rakamu ] rakamu. [H.] n. Shapeliness, grace, elegance. andamu sogasu. Sort, kind, class, style, quality. vidhamu, maccu, taraha, dinusu. a biyyamulo nalugurakamulunnavi of that rice there are four kinds. "cikili caukatlu saripenal rakamesangu, nungarambulu nokavintayorapunerapa." S. ii. 263. adj. Graceful, elegant, handsome, beautiful. sogasaina, sundaramaina. "mukutampujigisompu rakamainanelavampu." T. i. 29. rakamuga rakamu-ga. adv. Gracefully, beautifully, elegantly, sogasuga, sundaramuga.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/romadict....ple&table=brown<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
H means Hindi and usually anything from Hindi usually turns out foreign with some exceptions such as Pankha for fan, came in during Nizam's rule, can anyone tell me if this word is from Farsi or Arabic?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Jun 2 2007, 08:00 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Jun 2 2007, 08:00 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->SwamyG, that does it! Let's take it outside. You've called me a toddler! <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Thootham is from <i>teertham</i> which is the word used by the generation of grandparents in my family for designating <i>drinking</i> water (of course, they say teertham not thootam). Teertham is what water is called after Puja offerings, and this is what it is called in temples as well. People always know they can drink this.

<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man, why did I not make that connection. I was pondering from where 'thootham' must have come. That's the word I grew up with, and continued using it for several years in my twenties. The more and more I stopped using the brahmin dialect outside the brahmin circle, the more and more I stopped using the word (and other words related to brahmin dialect). But now and then, I can see it slipping in the company of aged relatives or parents.

I would say, in general the brahmin dialect is changing, or dying.

[Hauma Hamiddha]

bhauma means son of earth. Mars as per Hindu lore was born when the sweat of shiva dropped on earth. In the rudra saMhitA of the shiva purANa, pArvatI kANDa this tale is narrated. The contact of the sweat of rudra with pR^ithivi gave rise to mars who was then elevated to a graha by rudra.

[Guest]

angAraka, bhauma, kuja etc are other names of mangala (Mars).

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I would say, in general the brahmin dialect is changing, or dying. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not surprised, even Tamil in general is not spoken by many urban Tamils if I go by their online posts and rants about Tamglish, if entire languages are dying then what chances do regional and community specific dialects stand before the English onslaught, if you speak in pure Tamil or Telugu, you are a backward man from a strange planet if you are not a politician or religious preacher.

Oh and for Hindi if you speak shudh Hindi, not only are you a backward person but a Hindu fascist out to destroy the "secular fabric" of this country.

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Moves afoot to promote Telugu

Staff Reporter

Language panel for compulsory education in Telugu up to secondary school level 

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Around 70 per cent of the children aged between 5to 13 are studying in English medium
A UNESCO study reveals that out of 6,000 languages in the world about 3,000 are on the brink of extinction
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NIZAMABAD: Official Language Commission member Kaluva Mallaiah has said that the Commission is making efforts to protect and promote Telugu culture apart from implementing the mother tongue in Government offices.

Addressing a press conference after concluding his two-day visit to the district, here on Thursday, he said in that in Andhra Pradesh 70 per cent of the children aged between five and 13 years were studying in English medium and added that it was not a good sign.

Therefore, the Commission wanted the Government to introduce compulsory education in Telugu medium up to the Secondary School level.

Corporate culture

With the advent of the corporate culture in Intermediate education the managements were encouraging students to take Sanskrit as the second language.

But, this too was not a good sign for the improvement of Telugu language, and hence the Commission had asked the college managements to make Telugu compulsorily, he said.

According to a study conducted by the United Nations Educational Scientific Children's Organisation, out of 6,000 languages in the world about 3,000 were on the brink of extinction in the near future and Telugu was one among them, he said.

Expressing fears about the future of Telugu, he said if the same situation continued Telugu would disappear in next 20 years.

All-round development

To avert the danger every Telugu man should speak in his mother tongue and work hard for protecting it.

On the occasion, he sought to remind that all advanced countries and States achieved all round development by promoting and studying in their own language.

It did not mean that English language should not be learnt. English was an international link language and one could not rule out its significance in the education and research.

However, it could be learnt by continuing education and speaking in Telugu, he clarified.

District Revenue Officer C. Sriram Reddy was also present.

http://www.hindu.com/2005/11/04/stories/...200300.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->