Rama Setu -2

[Guest]

DMK and their Nidhi are totally clueless. (Thanks for coming up with the name 'Nidhi', Bharatvarsh. 'Karunanidhi' is a Hindu name and is thus wasted on him.)
(1)
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Sep 18 2007, 07:50 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Sep 18 2007, 07:50 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>WE SHALL PROTECT IT</b> -<i>By Subramanian Swamy</i>

The Dravidian Kazhagam, a British imperialist stooge organisation, has recently threatened to burn the Ramyana in a public protest against “Aryan Supremacy” for opposing the destruction of the Ram Sethu in the implementation of the Sethusamudram Canal Project.
............
[right][snapback]73301[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Ramayanam and Oryan supremacy? DMK should stop reading missionary pamphlets as to what's in the Ramayanam and what it's about.
They're just making regular fools of themselves otherwise.

(2) Thank the Gods someone finally said it/posted on it - more Nidhi silliness here
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Sep 20 2007, 04:08 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Sep 20 2007, 04:08 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Pioneer, 20 Sept 2007
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Karunanidhi wrong, Ram an ancient Tamil icon
There is <b>nothing more ridiculous than calling Ravan a Dravidian hero</b>. <b>Ravan is in fact a top-of-the drawer Brahmin. He is the great grandson of Brahma himself, the grandson of Pulastya Maharishi and the son of Visravas, another rishi.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->[right][snapback]73367[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Besides, Ravana was not Tamil but from Kashmir. Not that the location matters to me, but it ought to matter to Nidhi, because he looks doubly foolish with his awkward identification with Ravana here (#74):
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->(Nidhi "If you insult Ravana, you are insulting me."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->There's no point making fun of DMK and their boss when they are so good at it themselves.
That's what one gets with communists/psecularists/pseudo-rationalists/DMK: people who don't know what they're saying most of the time and usually end up saying something that goes totally against their 'point'. They're the Self-Debunking people - the kind that always puts their foot in their mouth when they open it.

[Guest]

Changing stand, Nidhi says he is fine with implementing SSCP though an alternative alignment that does not damage Setu.

He challenges Advani for an open debate on 'Ram existed' based upon Valmiki Ramayana. Says he stands by his comments that Ram is the character like those of his novels.

If I remember right, it was he and goons of his party who raised all the storm about removing the statue of a fictious character Kannagi from a cross road somewhere for some road broadening. Kannagi is a well known fictious character.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://in.jagran.yahoo.com/news/national/p..._2_3752781.html

रामसेतु तोडे़ बिना भी परियोजना स्वीकार: करुणानिधि Sep 20, 07:57 pm

चेन्नई। तमिलनाडु के मुख्यमंत्री और द्रमुक अध्यक्ष एम करुणानिधि ने रामसेतु पर अपने रुख में अभूतपूर्व बदलाव लाते हुए कहा कि यदि सेतु को तोडे़ बिना सेतुसमुद्रम जहाजरानी नहर परियोजना लागू की जाती है तो उन्हें कोई आपत्ति नहीं है।

करुणानिधि ने एक उच्चस्तरीय बैठक के बाद यहां पार्टी मुख्यालय अन्ना अरिवालायम में एक संवाददाता सम्मेलन में कहा कि यह परियोजना तमिलों का 100 वर्ष पुराना सपना है और रामसेतु को तोड़कर अथवा बिना तोडे़ यह परियोजना लागू की जानी चाहिए। यह पूछे जाने पर कि क्या रामसेतु को नुकसान पहुंचाए बिना इस परियोजना को लागू किया जाना उन्हें स्वीकार्य होगा, तो करुणानिधि ने कहा कि हमारा यह रुख कभी नहीं रहा कि उस पुल को तोड़ा जाना चाहिए और हम केवल इस परियोजना के लागू किए जाने के पक्ष में हैं। यह तमिलों का 100 वर्ष पुराना सपना है और सेतु समुद्रम् परियोजना के लागू होने से न केवल तमिलनाडु बल्कि पूरे दक्षिण भारत में समृद्धि आएगी। करुणानिधि ने कहा कि विशेषज्ञों और अर्थशास्त्रियों का भी यही मानना है कि एक बार इस परियोजना के लागू हो जाने से जहाजों की परिक्रमा में समय कम लगेगा और इससे व्यापारिक गतिविधियों तथा समृद्धि में वृद्धि होगी।

भाजपा नेता लालकृष्ण आडवाणी के इस बयान कि भगवान राम और रामायण के बारे में दिए गए वक्तव्यों को उन्हें वापस लेना चाहिए को ठुकराते हुए करुणानिधि ने कहा कि ऐसा वक्तव्य मैंने रामायण के लेखक महर्षि बाल्मीकि के हवाले से दिया था। करुणानिधि ने पूछा कि क्या आडवाणी बाल्मीकि रामायण के पूरे अध्ययन के बाद उनके साथ किसी मंच पर चर्चा के लिए तैयार हैं।

उनका ध्यान आडवाणी के उस बयान की ओर दिलाया गया जिसमें उन्होंने कहा था कि ईसा मसीह अथवा मूसा के चमत्कारों पर ही सवाल होते हैं, उनके अस्तित्व पर नहीं तो क्यों करुणानिधि भगवान राम के अस्तित्व पर सवाल कर रहे हैं। इस पर उन्होंने कहा कि मैंने केवल वही कहा जो बाल्मीकि ने कहा। उन्होंने कहा कि मैंने खुद कई उपन्यास लिखे। क्या मेरे उपन्यास के पात्र अस्तित्व में है। यहां तक कि पंडित जवाहरलाल नेहरू ने भी कहा था कि रामायण एक काल्पनिक कहानी है और भारत के पूर्व गवर्नर जनरल राजाजी की भी यही राय थी। आडवाणी की इस टिप्पणी पर कि एक वर्ग के लोगों की भावनाओं को आहत करना दंडनीय है तो उनका कहना था कि संविधान में ऐसी कोई बात नहीं है। उन्होंने कहा कि उन्होंने किसी की भावना पर चोट नहीं की है और द्रमुक कभी ऐसी चीजों में लिप्त नहीं रहा।

केंद्रीय मंत्री एच आर भारद्वाज की टिप्पणी पर उन्होंने कहा कि मेरी टिप्पणी उतनी ही सही है, जितनी उनकी। भारद्वाज ने कहा कि राम का अस्तित्व उतना ही सच है जितना हिमालय और गंगा का। काडानाडू एस्टेट में अवैध निर्माण मुद्दे पर अन्नाद्रमुक प्रमुख जयललिता के खिलाफ क्या उनकी सरकार कार्रवाई शुरू करेगी। इस सवाल पर उन्होंने कहा कि पहले लोगों को इस बारे में सूचित करना चाहिए और उसके बाद सरकार कार्रवाई के बारे में फैसला करेगी।
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[ramana]

Bodhi, Its torn shirt open fly arguement. Kannagi is embodied in Tamil conciousness. So no need to question her existence. Karunanidhi is moron and thats that.

[Guest]

In addition to my earlier post on dinasaur's admiration for Ravan, let's venture a bit more into secularism as practiced by M. Karunanidhi.

http://www.hindu.com/2005/01/21/stories/...400500.htm
On Id
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam president, M. Karunanidhi, said that Id-Ul-Zuha marked the <b>event of the Prophet sacrificing his son to remove poverty and herald prosperity for the people</b>. Bakrid, which underscored the importance of charity was meaningful this year as there was paramount need to extend voluntary help to those affected by the tsunami.
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When's Stalin going to be sacrificed remove poverty and herald prosperity for the people of Chennai? <!--emo&:devil--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devilsmiley.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='devilsmiley.gif' /><!--endemo-->


http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/004...141212.htm
On Pongal
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"Let us <b>all celebrate the festival as the common festival of the state irrespective of caste, creed and religion</b>. Let us take an oath on this day for the betterment of Tamils and Tamil language all over the world," he said.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/i...6/02650925.html
On applying tilak (1999)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Chief Minister and Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam president M Karunanidhi has stirred a hornets' nest by advising partymen, particularly those belonging to the youth wing, <b>not to bury the ideology of late rationalist leader E V Ramaswamy (Periyar) by applying tilak on the forehead</b>

Karunanidhi said he did not know whether Mani erased the tilak from the portrait as soon as he saw it. ``But he should have erased it''.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->



http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/apr/05quota.htm
Reservations for Christians and Muslims
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->the Tamil Nadu government on Thursday announced an 'exclusive reservation' for Christains and Muslims in government services and educational institutions
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http://www.indianexpress.com/story/10098.html
Hindu deities desecrators set scott-free
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The six cases, relating to desecration of idols of Hindu deities in villages surrounding Melapalayam near Tirunelveli, were at the trial stage in the district court when the GO (MS No. 431 dated May 27, 2006) was issued by the state Home department, ordering the Tirunelveli district collector to drop the cases.
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Add more as you find..

[Guest]

Ram Setu debate: Karuna flip-flops for the past 35 yrs

Video: http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/48841/ram-se...ast-35-yrs.html

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Chief Minister Karunanidhi had written a foreword to the Gazetteer of the Ramanathapuram district in 1972 citing the Adam's Bridge as an authentic proof of the culture and tradition of Tamil Nadu.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The NDA had always said that the project is okay as long as they don't touch the bridge. But if there is one political hypocrite who comes out clearly in this issue then that is the CM of Tamil Nadu. The Centre is part of a great conspiracy to bring total darkness in this state,” political analyst Cho Ramaswamy said.

But will this anti-Ram stand affect Karunanidhi's votebank?

“The Hindu voter is a very tolerant person and that’s why Karunanidhi is able to indulge in hatred of Hinduism again and again,” Ramaswamy said.

While the NDA goes all out to woo the majority votebank, Karunanidhi's single point agenda appears to be the minorities.

By decrying Lord Ram and giving away quotas to the minorities, he has made his priorities clear. But in the case of mid-term elections, this just might amount to political suicide
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Believe Cho's torn this thug some new ones in Thuglak... anyone with access and translation?

[Guest]

<b>Even Valmiki says Lord Ram was a drunkard: Karuna</b>

Karuna is maha Pagal, his place is mental hospital. He can give good company to Moron SIngh and Queen.

[Guest]

<b>Ramar Sethu issue: RSS directs its organisations to work together</b> <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->agitation, when the Sangh seemed to have lost the plot, the RSS, it seems, is wary of the Ramar Sethu agitation going the Ayodhya way. It does not want it to be hijacked by the BJP, turned into a political agitation, and then discarded when the party is in power due to “political compulsions,” with consequent loss of face for the RSS and its other organisations such as the VHP.

<b>Addressing the press here on Wednesday, VHP leader Ashok Singhal confirmed that aims of the VHP and BJP were identical. Both were opposed to the destruction of the under-sea structure described as Ramar Sethu, but both were in favour of the Sethusamudram project. They both preferred a different alignment that would bring no harm to the Ramar Sethu.

“We are all in it together,” Mr. Singhal said. He disclosed that at an RSS meeting recently, where representatives of the BJP and the VHP were present, the direction was that all wings of the RSS should work in a coordinated manner to take the agitation forward.</b>

RSS has ‘larger’ goal
A senior BJP leader explained: the RSS view and its goal is larger than the BJP’s as it wants to raise Hindu consciousness.

The BJP’s aim often gets restricted to electoral victories. The RSS does not want the Ramar Sethu issue to become a victim of any “compulsions of coalition politics” as the Ayodhya issue did

..............
<b>The so-called differences between the BJP and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad on the Ramar Sethu issue are only related to personal jealousies, not to the issue that has the full support of the RSS and all its wings.</b>
..............<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Sep 20 2007, 09:14 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Sep 20 2007, 09:14 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->If I remember right, it was he and goons of his party who raised all the storm about removing the statue of a fictious character Kannagi from a cross road somewhere for some road broadening.  Kannagi is a well known fictious character.
[right][snapback]73381[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Don't do that. Kannagi is important to Tamil Hindus. It was right that the removal of her statue was somehow prevented.

When you want to pick on Nidhi, it's very easy. He gave his kid/freak the name 'Stalin' - *particularly* chose to name him after the mass-murdering communist from Russia. "Joseph Stalin" (who chose for himself that name of 'Joe Steel' as he found to reflect 'the everyman' in order to fit in with the communist idea of 'The People').
Note that the DMK leader did not use the <i>Tamil</i> word for steel or anything, but the *Russian* word: he is an admirer of Stalin. Meanwhile he calls himself a fan of Tamil. Yeah right.

When I told a Russian colleague about it, he was really shocked - said no one in Russia now would name their kid Stalin: the man who killed millions of their own. I explained that that's the state of these kinds of ignorant losers in India: they love communism and the mass-murdering communist tyrants; that while they admire lefty genocidal maniacs, they also hate everything else.
When I told him that Nidhi was in charge of TN, he said he was scared for my people. Said that people who commemorate genocidal maniacs are most often sociopaths.
(Many Tamil people don't know who the Russian Stalin was, hence they don't know they should be worried that we have a leader who is an admirer.)

Was wondering, did Nidhi name any of his other kids after Hitler? If he didn't, he's probably going to give it to his next-born. And then he can name another Mao and another can be called Khmer Rouge. Perfect. Just like Nidhi likes it: no Hindu, Tamil names amongst them.

In any case, we should make him and his spawn 'Stalin' famous. Make him so unpopular everywhere else, people in TN start getting too embarassed to vote the loser in.

[Bharatvarsh]

Kannagi Amma is a Goddess especially in Tamizh Eelam where she is worshipped as Pattini.

http://pattini.org/

[Guest]

Ramana:<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Its torn shirt open fly arguement. Kannagi is embodied in Tamil conciousness. So no need to question her existence. Karunanidhi is moron and thats that.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Husky:<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't do that. Kannagi is important to Tamil Hindus. It was right that the removal of her statue was somehow prevented.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bharatvarsh:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Kannagi Amma is a Goddess especially in Tamizh Eelam where she is worshipped as Pattini.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Husky, ramana, bharat, I had no idea. remembered reading reports about that case and DMK's stand on it. in any case, my intention was to show that the same morons had used a different stand because it suited them. but i put it clumsily as usual. so, thanks a ton for correcting me.

[ramana]

Looks like Ambika SOni was able to show that the corrections suggested by her were not incorporated by the Addl Solicitor General(ASG) ie the Law Ministry. Why.

Also Jairam Ramesh and RK Dhawan were doing a hatchet job either under mistake or willfully. Why?

Meanwhile Pioneer has this report of LKA MK polemics and a background on the DMK and Ramayana.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Stop abusing Ram, Advani tells Karunanidhi</b>

K Venkataramanan | Chennai


<b>...as DMK chief makes more offensive remarks</b>

Senior BJP leader LK Advani on Thursday demanded that Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M Karunanidhi withdraw his disparaging comments on Lord Ram. But within a shortwhile, the DMK leader defiantly rejected the demand and challenged the BJP veteran to a debate on Valmiki Ramayan. 

Karunanidhi also said Ram was 'as much a lie as the Ganga and the Himalayas are true', in a reference to Union Law Minister HR Bhardwaj's observation that Ram was as true as the Ganges and the Himalayas.

"I have not said the sort of things that Valmiki had said about Ram. Valmiki had even referred to Ram as a drunkard. Have I said such things?" Karunanidhi asked when reporters approached him for his reaction to Advani's demand made at a Press conference earlier in the day.

Karunanidhi, invoking the names of Jawaharlal Nehru and C Rajagopalachari, contended that there were several eminent authors who had described the Ramayan as a mere story. And he repeated.

"Though Karunanidhi is an atheist, I appeal to him to withdraw his remarks. Atheists in Europe and America do not wound religious sentiments in this manner," Advani had said earlier. One had heard of doubts being expressed about miracles attributed to revered religious figures like Jesus, Moses or Mohammed the Prophet, but none had so far questioned the existence of Jesus, Moses or Mohammed, the BJP leader said.

However, Karunanidhi insisted that what he had said about Ram - that there was no historical proof that he had ever existed or that a bridge called 'Ram Setu' had been constructed by him. "Law Minister HR Bhardwaj had said Ram was as true as the Ganges and the Himalayas. What I say is equally true and valid," the DMK leader said.

"Let Advani go through the Valmiki Ramayan in its entirety and come for a debate on a common platform. Is he ready for such a debate?" Karunanidhi asked.

However, in what appeared to be a concession on the Ram Setu issue, the Chief Minister said the object of the Sethusamudram project was not to destroy the undersea structure but to bring prosperity to the region and aid faster shipping and trade.

Answering a question on whether he would agree to the Sethusamudram project being implemented without causing damage to 'Ram Setu', he said: "Breaking the bridge is not the project's objective. I only want the project to be implemented at the earliest as it will reduce shipping expenses and promote trade. It has been delayed for more than a 100 years."

<b>Karunanidhi's remarks on Ramayan reflect a key tenet of the Dravidian movement in its early days that the Hindu epic reflected an age-old conflict between Aryans and Dravidians. Dravidar Kazhagam, the parent organisation of all Dravidian parties in Tamil Nadu, holds that the Ramayan is the story of an Aryan prince defeating a Dravidian king and that it has been written from the victor's point of view, painting the defeated king as a demon.</b>

<b>DMK founder Karunanidhi's mentor and the party's first Chief Minister, the late CN Annadurai wrote a monograph about 50 years ago attacking medieval Tamil poet Kamban for rendering the story of Ramayan in epic form in Tamil. Quoting erotic and sensual extracts and sexual imagery used by the poet in his classic, Annadurai accused him of bringing in a base form of Aryan literature into Tamil and also of corrupting Dravidian culture by infusing Aryan elements.</b>
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Two points.

1) The Arayan invasion theory is wrong. So Aryan Dravidian divide is worng and false.

2) Was C Annadorai a Christian or educated at Christian colleges? His remarks shw a puritanical bent of mind usually got from Christian indoctrination. Why is he attacking Kamban?

Also what was JLN's views on Rajagopalachari's Ramayana?

[ramana]

And

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Kalaignar has lost the plot

Balbir K Punj

While the Archaeological Survey of India has withdrawn the blasphemous affidavit on Ram Setu from the Supreme Court, subsequent events have once again underlined the duplicity of the 'secularists'. Union Minister TR Baalu has been continuously repeating the contents of the offensive affidavit. His mentor M Karunanidhi has been adding insult to injury by his vitriolic remarks against Lord Ram. These statements are more dangerous than the disowned affidavit. Ironically, neither the Prime Minister nor other 'secularists' have protested his remarks.

The DMK's rant against Lord Ram is inspired by commerce, its ideology of atheism and political expediency. The Sethusamudram Shipping Channel Project involves huge investment of Rs 2,427 crore. This is enough money to be shared between the dredging company and those pushing the project. Right from the days of EV Ramaswami Naicker, the DMK cadre have been fed on an anti-Hindu diet. So the DMK leaders are abusing 'Ram' to pander to their traditional constituency in order to boost their sagging electoral fortunes in the State.

During the Ram Janmabhoomi movement, the BJP was accused of communalism because the movement was about Lord Ram. The 'secularists' charged the party for mixing religion with politics and using Lord Ram's name to garner votes. That artificial label, 'communal', is conveniently used by the 'secularists' to forge and break political alliances and is also the UPA's raison d'être.

For 'secularists', mentioning Lord Ram's name is 'communal' but abusing him for political ends is not. A movement for the reconstruction of the Ram temple at Ayodhya is considered a threat to the 'secular' fabric of the country. But they happily extend their covert and overt support to a state-funded project to demolish Ram Setu.

The 'secularists' selectively apply a perverse logic of 'rationality'. The mere theft of an Islamic relic from the Hazratbal shrine in the 1960s had led to countrywide riots till the relic was restored. Lal Bahadur Shastri was sent in haste to Srinagar to pacify the community. Nobody at that point in time spoke about rationality. When someone approached the Calcutta High Court against the contents of the Quran, a law officer was rushed to that city to tell the court - and rightly so - that it is none of the court's business to sit in judgement on religious texts.

The pseudo-secularists believe that Hindus can be easily pacified no matter how much they are offended. The same thinking enables the Government to ignore the protests against a famous painter portraying Hindu goddesses naked, while it hastens to ban books, portrayals and representations of what Muslims consider blasphemy.

What prompted the Government to ignore the sentiments of Hindus altogether in sanctioning a project that destroys Ram Setu? If rationality and scientific thinking were reasons to go ahead with the project, it could be understood. But the fact is that the same Government does not think rationally when it sanctions a hefty sum as subsidy to help some other religion's followers to go for what they believe is a mandatory pilgrimage one must undergo at least once in his/ her lifetime.

The secular mascot of southern India, Mr Karunanidhi, spearheading the Ram Setu demolition squad, has forgotten one important thing. <b>Carnatic music is dominated by saint composer Thyagaraja. Almost all his thousands of kritis (compositions) of devotional songs are sung in honour of his beloved deity, Thyagaraja or Lord Ram. The Lord is named as the king of sacrifices because he readily agreed to give up his claims to the throne as the eldest son to honour a promise that his father had made to one of his three queens. Saint Thyagaraja is at the heart of Tamil culture that Mr Karunanidhi praises so much. So by opposing Lord Ram, Mr Karunandhi has contradicted himself.</b>

An important comparison: Soon after the Prophet's death, a war of succession broke out among his followers. The Mughal period saw the princes fighting among themselves for the throne, soon after the emperor's death. In the fratricidal war, Mughal emperor Aurangzeb emerged victorious after murdering his brothers and imprisoning his father.

Apparently, Mr Karunanidhi has no quarrel with this culture. Conferred with the title 'Kalaignar' - man of (Tamil) culture - he also conveniently overlooks Kamban, the great ancient Tamil poet who wrote his own version of Ramayan. This version is popular in the State even today and is hailed as a literary masterpiece. So much for the Kalaignar's love for Tamil culture!

Mr Karunanidhi and several other dyed-in-the-wool secularists of his ilk frequently ask for evidence supporting Hindu beliefs and the events mentioned in Mahabharat and Ramayan. How will the evidence surface? <b>Over 1,000 years of Muslim rule witnessed massive destruction of countless symbols of Hindu culture and traditions. The British did some archaeological studies but they were usually subordinated to their imperial interests. The establishment of independent India, moulded in the mindset of the British, has shown little interest in finding evidence to substantiate Indian traditions.</b>

Compare this to the interest Western archaeologists showed in finding out whether the Biblical reference to a flood and Noah building an arc in anticipation of it and stocking it with birds and beasts, one pair of each species as directed by god, was true or not. Lots of money was spent and ultimately some evidence was dug out that showed that there indeed was a flood and that a huge boat was really built whose remnants were found.

The Western scholars did not dismiss the Noah story as mere 'faith' because they were completely absorbed in the Biblical tradition. They respected their tradition and sought to enrich it. Our 'secularists' are adept at denouncing their own culture: Forget Kalidas and Kautilya and study Marx and Gorky or Shakespeare and Burke.

The blatant disrespect shown to Lord Ram has stirred the conscience of some Congressmen as well. Coming close on the heels of the indefensible civil nuclear deal with the US, many leading Congressmen - who have remained tight-lipped for long - are waiting for the opportune moment to blow the whistle. The UPA Government has crossed all limits of hypocrisy. Its boat is about to sink. It is hoped it will find a respectful place in the waters of the Gulf of Mannar.

<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Looks like Ambika SOni was able to show that the corrections suggested by her were not incorporated by the Addl Solicitor General(ASG) ie the Law Ministry. Why.

Also Jairam Ramesh and RK Dhawan were doing a hatchet job either under mistake or willfully. Why?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Soni was busy traveling abroad, and was neglecting her role as minister in India. She , Law ministry were on holidays mood and gave full authority to DMK. DMK overruled or never showed or approved anything from Culture or Law ministry and did their own thing. Fuuny thing, even Govt lawyers didnot objected, Why?
Is it acceptable in Govenrment to abuse and insult majority religion just to get promotion?

It just reflects no one is running India, free for all, and PM Moron Singh is in comatose state. DMK had just exposed two power center and no one is ready to take responsibility, Queen is saying she had no responsibility as she is not PM, PM is saying I have no authority so where is my responsibility. They both are doing tap dance and screwing India big time for long run.

Babus in every department are just smoking cigars.


Jairam Ramesh and RK Dhawan are result of internal power struggle. Who is more close to lick Queen's slippers every hour.
Babus do every day. Close 8 does every hour.

[shamu]

<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Sep 21 2007, 10:42 PM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Sep 21 2007, 10:42 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->And

<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Kalaignar has lost the plot

Balbir K Punj
...
The DMK's rant against Lord Ram is inspired by commerce, its ideology of atheism and political expediency. The Sethusamudram Shipping Channel Project involves huge investment of Rs 2,427 crore. This is enough money to be shared between the dredging company and those pushing the project. Right from the days of EV Ramaswami Naicker, the DMK cadre have been fed on an anti-Hindu diet. So the DMK leaders are abusing 'Ram' to pander to their traditional constituency in order to boost their sagging electoral fortunes in the State.
...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think it is not commerce that drives MK crazy. He is fighting for his and his clan's survival. The whole identity of dravida movement is anti-Rama, anti-Krishna and anti-north. When this Ram issue comes up, especially when related to TN, he has to go by his stupid ideology. Not doing so would result in dwindling of committed cadres, which could result in death of DMK and increase acceptability for BJP in TN.

If BJP plays its cards correctly it can result in the fall of UPA.
- Go to north (actually just outside TN) and blame Congress and all socialists for tolerating anti-Ram statements from DMK.
- Cong/Dals/Commies can be convincingly portrayed as anti-Hindus to ordinary people for tolerating DMK statements while opposing Ram movements of BJP.
- DMK can not change its stance for its own reasons
- Cong/Dal has to oppose DMK because their inaction will result only in surge in votes for BJP.
- Either UPA has to say they don't want support of DMK or DMK should withdraw its support for opposing its statements.
- Either way, UPA can not survive.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If BJP plays its cards correctly it can result in the fall of UPA. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UPA is unable to close this issue, more delay, it will harm more. No apology from both authorities without responsibility is harming UPA. No riots is good thing, it is brewing frustation and hope that will show up on poll as it did during 1977.

If you see, current operators are same old crowd of 1977.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Ram Setu affidavit was filed deviating process </b>
Pioneer.com
Abraham Thomas | New Delhi
The Centre's controversial affidavit denying the existence of Lord Ram was filed in the Supreme Court in departure from the usual practice adopted in filing affidavits in the court, sources in the Union Law Ministry has revealed.

Although tight-lipped about disclosing any names, a top source in the Law Ministry confirmed that if the usual practice in filing affidavits had been adopted, the Government could have averted such an embarrassment.

Sources said<b> any affidavit filed in the Supreme Court was drafted by the concerned Ministry/Government department and sent to the Central Agency in Supreme Court, which disbursed it to the counsel appearing for the concerned Government agency/Ministry.</b>

<b>In normal circumstances, the counsel presents his suggestions or comments on the affidavit and sends it back to the Ministry/department. After consideration of the suggestions, the affidavit is returned to the Central Agency for filing the same in the court. But in the present case a departure was made from this practice.

If the matter is considered important, any one among the panel of Additional Solicitor Generals (ASG) has to settle or vet the affidavit. In some cases, the Solicitor General vets the affidavit on his own.</b>

<b>This was the case when the apex court was hearing the challenge against OBC quota law. The Solicitor General himself vetted the affidavit filed by the Centre justifying the OBC law after it was passed at the level of ASG</b>, sources said.

In the present instance, the legal officer overseeing the case in the Supreme Court is understood to have sent the affidavit to the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) after holding a series of meetings with Government officials. During the course of the meetings, the ASI is understood to have submitted its submissions to be carried in the affidavit.

The ASI and the Ministry of Culture scrutinised the draft copy of the affidavit and sought expunging of the objectionable portions.

Culture Minister Ambika Soni, who is currently facing heat over filing of the affidavit, is on record stating that the affidavit had reached her Ministry from the office of ASG Gopal Subramanium.

The Ministry had suggested corrections to be carried out before the affidavit was prepared in its final form. Despite the recommendation, the affidavit filed carried the objectionable paragraphs.

<b>In 2005, the Government faced a similar situation when its affidavit was filed in the Supreme Court relating to the coffin scam during the Kargil war. The Government remained silent on the involvement of former Defence Minister George Fernandez in the deal. Later, when a hue and cry was made in the media, the Government responded to correct its own affidavit and stated that 25 cases relating to the scam were filed, including one involving the Defence Minister</b>.

Lately the trend of filing affidavits has come for thick scrutiny in courts. And the departure from the established procedure is seen as one reason for the same. In the case<b>, though it is clear that the loss of face suffered by the Government was a consequence of its own wrongdoings having allowed the affidavit to be prepared by the office of ASG than the concerned department, it remains to be seen whether the real culprits be brought to book.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So now they are feeding different info, just to divert blame from DMK or PM or Sonia.
This issue was so big, it is not possible, how they handles this, trusting too much on Babus.
If you see, after this issue, Left is not crying loud on Nuclear issue, they know they are roasted. This gave oppurtunity to Moron SIngh to do work for his real master. Only ground reality will make UPA's others to say bye bye to UPA, at this moment they are scared, COngres had given 2008 onward rule to BJP in platter.

[ramana]

Not so fast. NDA has turned victory into defeat many times by associating with fools.

BTW if those responsibl eare not named how will the public know if they are punished?

I think the real problem is DMK did push the affadavit. And did it just like the Shankaracharya was arrested by AIDMK for vote bank in TN.

Until TN is cleaned up of the DK ideology India will not gain. The DK ideology is hangover of colonialism and resentment of Tamil pride.

Tamils became historically unimportant after Vijayanagara Empire. They re-emerged only with the advent of British colonial outpost in Madras and creation of Madras Prseidency.

DK ideology is an outgrowth of alienation of Tamil pride form the idea of India. These jokers are not the inheritors of the Pallavas and the Cholas but planquin bearers of the British colonialism.

[Guest]

<b>thanks to Viren for the story and Husky for the beautiful image</b>

<span style='color:red'>Rama Setu and Sri Krishna - III: Arjun and Hanuman's tussle over Setu </span>
http://ramasetu.blogspot.com/2007/09/rama-...rishna-iii.html

रामः शस्त्राभृतमहम
raamah shastrabhritaam aham
{Amongst Warriors, I Am Lord Ram!}
Srimad Bhagvad Gita 10.31

It was before the war of Mahabharata had taken place. Arjuna was traveling to different places, performing pilgrimage. In his journeys, he arrived at the famed Rameshwaram and had the darshan of Rama Setu.

<img src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_MAAO1bGRfec/RvQ411nv-7I/AAAAAAAAAIo/s2rPp2sVjZM/s400/tales+of+arjun+-+ACK.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Arjuna had heard from Bheeshma Pitamaha and Sri Krisna, the praises of Lord Rama as the Best of the Men, the maryada-purushottama, many times. Even during the 13 years of exile into the forests, he had heard the saga of Rama narraded by sage Markandeya. Once, during those hard days, Draupadi was kidnapped by Jayadratha, and Bheem had rescued Draupadi. Then, Pandava-s were feeling very dejected that their wife had been kidnapped. Sage Markandeya had then narrated to them the story of Lord Rama and his similar ordeal, and how he had rescued Sita.

So, Arjuna was there at Rameshwaram performing pilgrimage, and with Rama on his mind he witnessed the marvel of Setu. Seeing the famed Nala Setu, A doubt arose in his mind. Krishna always says Rama was the best warrior ever, even superior to me. If Rama was really such a great archer, then why did he need to depend upon Nala and the army of vaanara-s to construct the bridge? Why could he not use his bows and arrows to build a bridge? Was Rama such a good archer after all, as Krishna and Bheeshma have told me always?

Such were the doubts that arose in his mind, clouded by his ego, that he was the best archer as everyone said.

Nearby, spending time in solitude at Gandhamadan, in the meditation upon Lord Rama, was Pavana-putra Kesari-nandana Mahaveer Hanuman. Hanuman is one of the chiranjivi-s - he never dies. There are seven chiranjivi-s including him. The other six being Ashwatthama, Bali, Vyasa, Vibhishana, Kripacharya and Parashurama. So Hanuman was spending his time in loving memory of his Lord Sri Rama, when he found Arjuna engaged in such thoughts.

In shape of an odinary and aged vaanara, he appeared to Arjuna and addressed him. Friend, you do not know how huge-bodied and heavy our vaanara ancestors used to be. It must not have been easy to transport those thousands of crores of very heavy Vanara-s cross to Lanka on a bridge of arrows. All the options must have been well-considered by Lord Rama the Best, before the construction of the Setu must have been decided.

Hearing this, Arjuna became even more determined. Why! Certainly a good archer can construct a bridge which can withstand the weight of any number of creatures - what are vaanara-s! If Rama was such a good archer, he must have confidently performed that feat. Even I could do that had I been there.

Hanuman is the best of the devotees and a divine servant of Lord Rama. It is said that wherever glories of Rama are sung, he is always present with clasped hands and tear-filled eyes. So how could, Hanuman hear such criticism of his master? Addressing Arjuna, he said, no archer could construct such a bridge which could withstand the weight of those vaanara-s. Why you seem to be a kshatriya, and a warrior at that! Can you construct such a bridge of arrows? It would not even withstand the weight of an old vaanara like me!

The argument ensued and resulted in a challenge. They decided that Arjuna would construct a bridge of his arrows over a nearby water-body, using his skills of archery. Hanuman would then climb on the bridge. If the bridge sustained the weight of Hanuman, then Arjuna would be considered victorious. Otherwise he would lose and enter a burning pyre.

In his arrogance, Arjuna quickly built the bridge of the arrows, and invited Hanuman to test his strength. Chanting the names of Lord Rama, Hanuman had merely kept his tail upon the bridge, that it crumbled down like a pile of sand.

As per the challenge, Arjuna readied a pyre and lit it. As he was about to enter it, a Brahmana appeared there and inquired about the matter. Brahmana was nobody but Lord Krishna who had come to save the life of his dear friend and devotee Arjuna. So Krishna, in form of the Brahman, asked them who was the witness of their agreement. There was none. A deed of challenge without a witness, Brahmana said, was not legal, and there must be one. He then offered to be that witness and asked Arjuna to perform his deed again.

This time, remembering Krishna, Arjuna built a bridge again. Hanuman now climbed the bridge. lo and behold! Nothing happened and the bridge sustained his weight.

Then all of a sudden, both Hanuman and Arjun saw that the brahmana had lent his shoulder to the foundation of the bridge, and in sustaining the weight of Hanuman, he was heavily injured and profusely bleeding. Hanuman immediately realized Lord Rama in the form of Brahmana and Arjun saw Lord Krishna.

Hanuman was very moved by this act, and was not to be consoled. Rama holding the weight of Hanuman! Lord Krishna, who is Lord Rama, then hugged Hanuman and told him that he was so much indebted by the services of Hanuman, that the debt can never be paid back.

In Treta Yuga, you have done so much for me that I am in immense debt. None can ever measure all that you have done for my mission. You carried me on your shoulders over this Setu in that yuga. So, I came to meet my dearest friend in dwaapar yuga and carry him with affection on my shoulders too.'

<img src='http://bp2.blogger.com/_MAAO1bGRfec/RvQ8VVnv-8I/AAAAAAAAAIw/F13VgWt6s_w/s400/RamHanuman.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

This way Krishna met his best friend Hanuman, and saved life of another, Arjuna. Hanuman promised to be Arjuna's flag-bearer upon his chariot during the war of Mahabharata.

यत्र यत्र रघुनाथ कीर्तनम, तत्र तत्र कृतमस्तमंजलिम
वाष्पवारी परिपूर्ण लोचनम, मारुतिम नमत राक्षसंतकम
yatra yatra Raghunath kirtanam, Tatra tatra kritmastakanjalim.
vashpavari paripurna lochanam, marutim namat rakshasantakam

(I bow to Maruti whose name expells death to demons, and who, wherever the glory of Shri Rama is sung, is to be seen with clasped hands and tear-filled eyes.)
Also read:

Rama Setu and Sri Krishna - I : Kamyavana Setu Bandha Kunda
Rama Setu and Sri Krishna - II : Hanuman's Promise to Govardhana

[Guest]

<span style='color:red'>Rama Setu and Sri Krishna - IV: Hanuman Tells Bhimasena About Setu </span>

http://ramasetu.blogspot.com/2007/09/rama-...krishna-iv.html

Below are the excerpts from the Tirth-Yatra-Parva chapter of the Third Book of Mahabharata known as Vana Parva. The original text is from Sri Kesari Mohan Ganguly, which has been minimally modified and abridged in the below format.

avataar varishthaay Sri raamakrishnaayate namaH !

...Defeated at dice and incensed by the wickedsons of Dhritarashtra and their counsellors, the sons of Pritha set out from Hastinapura to spend their days of exile in the forests.

Arjuna in the meanwhile left to perform certain tapa-s and pilgrimages, and eventually visiting heaven. The rest of the four lions amongst men, along with Draupadi, eventually reached the foothills of the mountain of Gandhamadana and were staying there for a few days in the hermitage of noble sages who had their abode there, and anticipating to behold Arjuna, the Dhananjaya, there.

Once Draupadi and Bhimasen were sitting by the river Bhagirathi, and it came to pass that all of a sudden there blew a wind from the north-east and brought a celestial lotus of a thousand petals and effulgent as the sun. And Panchali saw that pure and charming lotus of unearthly fragrance, brought by the wind and left on the ground. And having obtained that excellent and beautiful lotus, that blessed one became exceedingly delighted. She showed it to Bhimasena and requested him to procure more of such unforeseen lotus flowers, so that she may present those to the hermitage.

Knowing the desire of his beloved queen that bull among men, Bhima of great strength, also set out, in order to gratify her. And intent upon fetching the flowers, he began to proceed at rapid space, facing the wind, in the direction from which the flower had come.

Intent upon gratifying Draupadi exiledunto the woods, as he was ranging the beautiful Gandhamadana, he remembered the many and various woes caused by Duryodhana. And he thought, 'Now that Arjuna sojourns in heaven and I too have come away to procure the flowers. Yudhishthira would be worried for us.' Thinking thus, that tiger among men proceeded rapidly. And having for his provisions on the journey the words of Draupadi, the mighty son of Pandu, Vrikodara Bhima, endued with strength and the swiftness of the wind, with his mind and sight fixed on the blooming slopes of the mountain, proceeded to penetrate with speed into that forest filled with trees.

There in the forest was laying down great Hanuman.

Knowing Bhimasena to be his brother, Hanuman, with the view of doing good to Bhima, obstructed the path leading to heaven. And thinking that he (Bhima) should not pass that way,(Hanuman) lay across the narrow path, beautified by plantain trees, obstructing it for the sake of the safety of Bhima. With the object that Bhima might not come by curse or defeat, by entering into the plantain wood, the ape Hanuman of huge body lay down amidst the plantain trees, being overcome with drowsiness. And he began to yawn, lashing his long tail, raised like unto the pole consecrated to Indra, and sounding like thunder. And on all sides round, the mountains by the mouths of caves emitted those sounds in echo, like a cow lowing. And as it was being shaken by the reports produced by the lashing of the tail, the mountain with its summits tottering, began to crumble all around.

On those sounds being heard the down of Bhima's body stood on end; and he began to range that plantain wood, in search of those sounds. And that one of mighty arms saw the vaanara-chief in the plantain wood, on an elevated rocky base. And he was hard to be looked at even as the lightning-flash; and of coppery hue like that of the lightning-flash: and endued with the voice of the lightning-flash; and quick moving as the lightning-flash; and having his short flesh neck supported on his shoulders; and with his waist slender in consequence of the fullness of his shoulders. And his tail covered with long hair, and a little bent at the end, was raised like unto a banner. And (Bhima) saw Hanuman's head furnished with small lips, and coppery face and tongue, and red ears, and brisk eyes, and bare white incisors sharpened at the edge.' And his head was like unto the shining moon; adorned with white teeth within the mouth; and with mane scattered over, resembling a heap of asoka flowers.

And amidst the golden plantain trees, that one of exceeding effulgence was lying like unto a blazing fire, with his radiant body. And that slayer of foes as casting glances with his eyes reddened with intoxication. And the intelligent Bhima saw that mighty chief of vaanara-s, of huge body, lying like unto the Himalaya, obstructing the path of heaven. And seeing him alone in that mighty forest, the undaunted athletic Bhima, of long arms, approached him with rapid strides, and uttered a loud shout like unto the thunder. And at that shout of Bhima, beasts and birds became all alarmed. The powerful Hanuman, however, opening his eyes partially looked at him (Bhima) with disregard, with eyes reddened with intoxication.

And then smilingly addressing him, Hanuman said the following words, 'Ill as I am, I was sleeping sweetly. Why hast thou awakened me? Thou shouldst show kindness to all creatures, as thou hast reason. Belonging to the animal species, we are ignorant of virtue. But being endued with reason, men show kindness towards creatures. Why do then reasonable persons like thee commit themselves to acts contaminating alike body, speech, and heart, and destructive of virtue? Thou knowest not what virtue is, neither hast thou taken council of the wise. And therefore it is that from ignorance, and childishness thou destroyest the lower animals. Say, who art thou, and what for hast thou come to the forest devoid of humanity and human beings?"

Hearing these words of the intelligent vaanara-chief, the heroic Bhima nswered, 'Who art thou? And why also hast thou assumed the shape of a vaanara? It is a Kshatriya--one of a race next to the Brahmanas--that asketh thee. And he belongeth to the Kuru race and the lunar stock, and was borne by Kunti in her womb, and is one of the sons of Pandu, and is the off spring of the wind-god, and is known by the name of Bhimasena.' Hearing these words of the Kuru hero, Hanuman smiled, and that son of the wind-god (Hanuman) spake unto that offspring of the wind-god (Bhimasena), saying, 'I am a vaanara, I will not allow thee the passage thou desirest. Better desist and go back. Do thou not meet with destruction.'

At this Bhimasena replied. 'Destruction at anything else do I not ask thee about, O vaanara! Do thou give me passage. Arise! Do not come by grief at my hands.'

Hanuman said, "I have no strength to rise; I am suffering from illness. If go thou must, do thou go by overleaping me."

Bhima said, "The Supreme Soul void of the properties pervadeth a body all over. Him knowable alone by knowledge, I cannot disregard. And therefore, will I not overleap thee. If I had not known Him from Whom become manifest all creatures, I would have leapt over thee and also the mountain, even as Hanuman had bounded over the ocean."

Thereupon Hanuman said, "Who is that Hanuman, who had bounded over the ocean? I ask thee, O best of men. Relate if thou canst."

Bhima replied, "He is even my brother, excellent with every perfection, and endued with intelligence and strength both of mind and body. And he is the illustrious chief of vaanara-s, renowned in the Ramayana. And for Rama's queen, that king of the vaanara-s even with one leap crossed the ocean extending over a hundred yojanas. That mighty one is my brother. I am equal unto him in energy, strength and prowess and also in fight. And able am I to punish thee. So arise. Either give me passage or witness my prowess to-day. If thou do not listen to my bidding, I shall send thee to the abode of Yama."

Then knowing him (Bhima) to be intoxicated with strength, and proud of the might of his arms, Hanuman, slighting him at heart, said the following words, 'Relent thou, O sinless one. In consequence of age, I have no strength to get up. From pity for me, do thou go, moving aside my tail.' Being thus addressed by Hanuman, Bhima proud of the strength of his arms, took him for one wanting in energy and prowess, and thought within himself, 'Taking fast hold of the tail, will I send this vaanara destitute of energy and prowess, to the region of Yama.'

Thereat, with a smile he slightingly took hold of the tail with his left hand; but could not move that tail of the mighty vaanara. Then with both arms he pulled it, resembling the pole reared in honour of Indra. Still the mighty Bhima could not raise the tail with both his arms. And his eye-brows were contracted up, and his eyes rolled, and his face was contracted into wrinkles and his body was covered with sweat; and yet he could not raise it.

And when after having striven, the illustrious Bhima failed in raising the tail, he approached the side of the vaanara, and stood with a bashful countenance. And bowing down, Kunti's son, with joined hands, spake these words, 'Relent thou, O foremost of vaanara-s; and forgive me for my harsh words. Art thou a Siddha, or a god, or a Gandharva, or a Guhyaka? I ask thee out of curiosity. Tell me who thou art that hast assumed the shape of vaanara, if it be not a secret, O long-armed one, and if I can well hear it. I ask thee as a disciple, and I, O sinless one, seek thy refuge.'

Thereupon Hanuman said, 'O represser of foes, even to the extent of thy curiosity to know me, shall I relate all at length. Listen, O son of Pandu! O lotus-eyed one, I was begotten by the wind-god that life of the world--upon the wife of Kesari. I am a vaanara, by name Hanuman. All the mighty vaanara-kings, and vaanara-chiefs used to wait upon that son of the sun, Sugriva, and that son of Sakra, Vali. And, O represser of foes, a friendship subsisted between me and Sugriva, even as between the wind and fire. And for some cause, Sugriva, driven out by his brother, for a long time dwelt with me at the Hrisyamukh. And it came to pass that the mighty son of Dasaratha the heroic Rama, who is Vishnu's self in the shape of a human being, took his birth in this world. And in company with his queen and brother, taking his bow, that foremost of bowmen with the view of compassing his father's welfare, began to reside in the Dandaka forest.

And from Janasthana, that mighty Rakshasa monarch, the wicked Ravana, carried away his (Rama's) queen by stratagem and force, deceiving, O sinless one, that foremost of men, through the agency of a Rakshasa, Maricha, who assumed the form of a deer marked with gem-like and golden spots."

Hanuman said, 'And after his wife was carried away, that descendant of Raghu, while searching with his brother for his queen, met, on the summit of that mountain, with Sugriva, chief of the vaanara-s. Then a friendship was contracted between him and the high-souled Raghava. And the latter, having slain Vali installed Sugriva in the kingdom. And having obtained the kingdom, Sugriva sent forth vaanara-s by hundreds and by thousands in search of Sita. And, O best of men, I too with innumerable vaanara-s set out towards the south in quest of Sita, O mighty-armed one. Then a mighty vulture Sampati by name, communicated the tidings that Sita was in the abode of Ravana. Thereupon with the object of securing success unto Rama, I all of a sudden bounded over the main, extending for a hundred yojanas.

And, O chief of the Bharatas, having by my own prowess crossed the ocean, that abode of sharks and crocodiles, I saw in Ravana's residence, the daughter of king Janaka, Sita, like unto the daughter of a celestial. And having interviewed that lady, Vaidehi, Rama's beloved, and burnt the whole of Lanka with its towers and ramparts and gates, and proclaimed my name there, I returned.

Hearing everything from me the lotus-eyed Rama at once ascertained his course of action, and having for the passage of his army constructed a bridge across the deep, crossed it followed by myriads of vaanara-s. Then by prowess Rama slew those Rakshasas in battle, and also Ravana, the oppressor of the worlds together with his Rakshasa followers.

And having slain the king of the Rakshasas, with his brother, and sons and kindred, he installed in the kingdom in Lanka the Rakshasa chief, Vibhishana, pious, and reverent, and kind to devoted dependants. Then Rama recovered his wife even like the lost Vaidic revelation. Then Raghu's son, Rama, with his devoted wife, returned to his own city, Ayodhya, inaccessible to enemies; and that lord of men began to dwell there. Then that foremost of kings, Rama was established in the kingdom.

Thereafter, I asked a boon of the lotus-eyed Rama, saying, 'O slayer of foes, Rama, may I live as long as the history of thy deeds remaineth extant on earth!"

Thereupon he said, 'So be it.'

"O represser of foes, O Bhima, through the grace of Sita also, here all excellent objects of entertainment are supplied to me, whoever abide at this place. Rama reigned for the thousand and ten hundred years. Then he ascended to his own abode. Ever since, here Apsaras and Gandharvas delight me, singing for aye the deeds of that hero, O sinless one."

"O son of the Kurus, this path is impassable to mortals. For this, O Bharata, as also with the view that none might defeat or curse thee, have I obstructed thy passage to this path trod by the immortals. This is one of the paths to heaven, for the celestials; mortals cannot pass this way. But the lake in search of which thou hast come, lieth even in that direction."

Thus addressed, the powerful Bhimasena of mighty arms, affectionately, and with a cheerful heart, bowed unto his brother, Hanuman, the vaanara-chief, and said in mild words, 'None is more fortunate than I am; now have I seen my elder brother. It is a great favour shown unto me; and I have been well pleased with thee. Now I wish that thou mayst fulfil this desire of mine. I desire to behold. O hero, that incomparable form of thine, which thou at that time hadst had, in bounding over the main, that abode of sharks and crocodiles. Thereby I shall be satisfied, and also believe in thy words.' Thus addressed, that mighty vaanara said with a smile, 'That form of mine neither thou, not any one else can behold. At that age, the state of things was different, and doth not exist at present. In the Krita age, the state of things was one; and in the Treta, another; and in the Dwapara, still another. Diminution is going on this age; and I have not that form now. The ground, rivers, plants, and rocks, and siddhas, gods, and celestial sages conform to Time, in harmony with the state of things in the different yugas.

Therefore, do not desire to see my former shape, O perpetuator of the Kuru race. I am conforming to the tendency of the age. Verily, Time is irresistible'

Hanuman then explained to Bhima the histories of all the different Yugas that had passed, and also of that which is yet to come, and said, "The religious acts performed at the waning of the yugas, produce contrary effects. And even those that live for several yugas, conform to these changes. O represser of foes, as regards thy curiosity to know me, I say this,--Why should a wise person be eager to know a superfluous matter? (Thus), O long-armed one, have I narrated in full what thou hadst asked me regarding the characteristics of the different yugas. Good happen to thee! Do thou return.'"

But Bhimasena said, "Without beholding thy former shape, I will never go away. If I have found favour with thee, do thou then show me thine own shape."

Being thus addressed by Bhima, the vaanara with a smile showed him that form of his in which he had bounded over the main. And wishing to gratify his brother, Hanuman assumed a gigantic body which (both) in length and breadth increased exceedingly. And that vaanara of immeasurable effulgence stood there, covering the plantain grove furnished with trees, and elevating himself to the height reached by the Vindhya. And the vaanara, having attained his lofty and gigantic body like unto a mountain, furnished with coppery eyes, and sharp teeth, and a face marked by frown, lay covering all sides and lashing his long tail. And that son of the Kurus, Bhima, beholding that gigantic form of his brother, wondered, and the hairs of his body repeatedly stood on end. And beholding him like unto the sun in splendour, and unto a golden mountain, and also unto the blazing firmament, Bhima closed his eyes.

Thereupon Hanuman addressed Bhima with a smile, saying, 'O sinless one, thou art capable of beholding my size up to this extent. I can, however, go on swelling my size as long as I wish. And, O Bhima, amidst foes, my size increaseth exceedingly by its own energy.'

Witnessing that dreadful and wonderful body of Hanuman, like unto the Vindhya mountain, the son of the wind-god became bewildered. Then with his down standing erect, the noble-minded Bhima, joining his hands, replied unto Hanuman saying (there), 'O lord, by me have been beheld the vast dimensions of thy body. Do thou (now), O highly powerful one, decrease thyself by thy own power. Surely I cannot look at thee, like unto the sun risen, and of immeasurable (power), and irrepressible, and resembling the mountain Mainaka. O hero, to-day this wonder of my heart is very great, that thou remaining by his side, Rama should have encountered Ravana personally. Depending on the strength of thy arms, thou wert capable of instantly destroying Lanka, with its warriors, and horses, elephants and chariots. Surely, O son of the wind-god, there is nothing that is incapable of being achieved by thee; and in fight, Ravana together with his followers was no match for thee single-handed."

Thus addressed by Bhima, Hanuman, the chief of vaanara-s, answered in affectionate words uttered in solemn accents. "O mighty-armed one, O Bharata, it is even as thou sayest. O Bhimasena, that worst of Rakshasas was no match for me. But if I had slain Ravana--that thorn of the worlds--the glory of Raghu's son would have been obscured;--and for this it is that I left him alone. By slaying that lord of the Rakshasas together with his followers, and bringing back Sita unto his own city, that hero hath established his fame among men.

Now, O highly wise one, being intent on the welfare of thy brothers, and protected by the wind-god, do thou go along a fortunate and auspicious way."

Hanuman then discoursed to his brother Bhimasena upon the topics of politics, ethics, and diplomacy.

Then contracting that huge body of his, which he had assumed at will, the vaanara with his arms again embraced Bhimasena. And on Bhima being embraced by his brother, his fatigue went off, and all (the powers of body) as also his strength were restored. And having gained great accession of strength, he thought that there was none equal to him in physical power. And with tears in his eyes, the vaanara from affection again addressed Bhima in choked utterance, saying, 'O hero, repair to thy own abode. May I be incidentally remembered by thee in thy talk! O best of Kurus, do not tell any one that I abide here. O thou of great strength, the most excellent of the wives of the gods and Gandharvas resort to this place, and the time of their arrival is nigh.

My eyes have been blessed (by seeing thee). And, O Bhima, having felt a human being by coming in contact with thee, I have been put in mind of that son of Raghu, who was Vishnu himself under the name of Rama, and who delighted the heart of the world; and who was as the sun in regard to the lotus face of Sita, and also to that darkness--Ravana. Therefore, O heroic son of Kunti, let not thy meeting with me be fruitless. Do thou with fraternal feeling ask of me a boon, O Bharata. If this be thy wish, that going to Varanavata, I may destroy the insignificant sons of Dhritarashtra--even this will I immediately do. Or if this be thy wish that, that city may be ground by me with rocks, or that I may bind Duryodhana and bring him before thee, even this will I do to-day, O thou of mighty strength.'

Hearing those words of that high-souled one, Bhimasena with a cheerful heart answered Hanuman, saying, 'O foremost of vaanara-s, I take all this as already performed by thee. O mighty-armed one! I ask of thee this,--be thou well pleased with me. O powerful one, on thy having become our protector, the Pandavas have found help. Even by thy prowess shall we conquer all foes.'

Thus addressed, Hanuman said unto Bhimasena, 'From fraternal feeling and affection, I will do good unto thee, by diving into the army of thy foes copiously furnished with arrows and javelins. And, O highly powerful one, O hero, when thou shall give leonine roars, then shall I with my own, add force to shouts. Remaining on the flagstaff of Arjuna's car will I emit fierce shouts that will damp the energy of thy foes. Thereby ye will slay them easily.' Having said this unto Pandu's son, and also pointed him out the way of how he could fetch the flowers and come out of the woods.

Hanuman vanished then from that spot. And Bhima went on too, thinking of Hanuman's body and splendour unrivalled on earth, and also of the greatness and dignity of Dasaratha's son, Raghava the Best Amongst All Men.

Also read:
Rama Setu and Sri Krishna - I: Kamyavana Setu Bandha Kunda
Rama Setu and Sri Krishna - II: Hanuman's Promise to Govardhana
Rama Setu and Sri Krishna - III: Arjun and Hanuman's tussle over Setu

[ramana]

MJ Akbar on MK and DMK.

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Byline By M.J. Akbar


<b>When a coalition begins to melt, its partners subtly, if not silently, begin to shift their public agenda from common concern to individual need. </b>The debate over the bridge built by Lord Ram between the Tamil Nadu coast and Sri Lanka is hardly new. A year ago, the supreme leader of the Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam, Mr M.K. Karunanidhi, would not have fractured sensibilities nationwide with intemperate, unacceptable remarks about Lord Ram, revered and worshipped by Hindus as the paradigm of virtue. Today, the political calendar has a premature general election marked within the first half of 2008. His party’s fortunes are now more important to him than his coalition’s fate. After all, what use is any coalition to him if he cannot get the seats that can make him a power broker?

Under pressure, Mr Karunanidhi is dipping into the source of Dravida nectar for sustenance. The origins are lost to public memory, so it may be useful to recall them.

The movement began in 1914 when Dr C. Nadesan Mudaliar started the Dravida Association. But it got its first impetus when the son of a rich landlord, privileged enough to be educated in England, walked away from his background to fight for the lower castes against the domination of the Brahmins. The name of this remarkable man was E.V. Ramaswamy Naicker, popularly known as ‘EVR’ and then ‘Periyar’. His philosophy was practical: he likened caste to malaria and said that his search was not for medicine but for the mosquitoes that spread malaria. He declared himself an atheist and went to war against Brahmins, the chief perpetrators of caste iniquity. He launched an agitation against his personal friend, the Maharaja of Travancore for reform: an Untouchable could not walk on the streets of the princely state, let alone raise his eyes in front of someone from an upper caste. You can get a flavour of EVR’s views from this quotation: "(Aryans) concocted absurd stories in keeping with their barbarian status… The blabberings of the intoxicated Brahmins in those old days are still faithfully observed in this modern world as the religious rituals, morals, stories, festivals, fasts, vows and beliefs". Inherent in the doctrine was the Aryan as an outsider, who had driven true Indians, Dravidians, south and then maintained his power through an iniquitous system. Brahmins were agents of that domination. The Dravida movement would move away from the eccentricities of EVR into the sager leadership of C.N. Annadurai, but the basic philosophy did not alter. When the DMK was formed after the split in the Dravida Kazhagam on 17 September 1949, it did not name a chairman. That chair was kept vacant for the "soul of Periyar".

Mr Karunanidhi has made two basic miscalculations in trying to revive his party by resurrecting the spirit of Periyar. <b>No faith has undergone more dramatic reform than Hinduism has in the last seventy-five years.</b> This is a tribute to both Hinduism’s leaders, the most notable of them being Mahatma Gandhi, and to ordinary Hindus, who realised that the excesses of caste were self-defeating. The India of 2007, with a supremely confident Mayawati as chief minister of India’s most important state, would be unrecognisable to the Hindus of 1932, a dramatic year in the history of caste relations. A nation cannot be modern until it destroys the shibboleths that have kept it chained to regression. There is much talk of a Hindu renaissance in the 19th century. That is a myth compared to the true renaissance that came in the 20th century, and became the engine of social change, a vital necessity for the kind of economic growth that India is witnessing. When the Brahmin votes for Mayawati, he makes Periyar, once a crucial catalyst of change, irrelevant. Periyar’s genius created the change that has made Periyar unnecessary. Tamil Nadu has changed as much as the rest of India. The "low caste" Hindus of Tamil Nadu are no longer subservient to the Brahmin. Mr Karunanidhi’s electoral success is evidence of this.

Mr Karunanidhi is talking to the Tamil Nadu of 1967, not the Tamil Nadu of 2007.

Nor does the venerable Dravida leader quite understand the meaning of secularism, at least as we practise it in India. The European benchmark of secularism is the separation of faith and state. <b>In India, secularism means respect for the other’s right to practice faith in whatsoever manner the other chooses. </b>Hindus and Muslims have lived with each other almost as long as Muslims and Christians. But there is no instance of the kind of ferocious diatribe that Dante, author of Divine Comedy, indulged in against the person of Islam’s Prophet, in any epic written by a Hindu. Similarly, there is not a single writer of any standing among Muslims who has ever been insulting towards a Hindu god. We do not have to believe in each other’s creeds to have respect for each other’s religions. That is the essence of co-existence. Mr Karunanidhi, who is probably an atheist, forgot that simple rule.

The debate about proof is inane, to opt for the most polite word. I cannot ‘prove’ that Allah exists; a Jew cannot ‘prove’ that Jehovah exists; a Christian cannot prove that ‘God’ exists. This may be, for all I know, less a reflection on divinity, and more an indication of human limitations. It is arrogance to believe that truth is merely the little that the human brain comprehends.

Gravity existed before Isaac Newton’s brain "discovered" it; indeed, it would be presumptuous to claim that the Pyramids were built without a thorough knowledge of gravity. The human brain is a work in progress.

Belief that has sustained itself for centuries is rarely constructed on a chimera, no matter what deviations (like caste) men may impose on the original faith. The past is littered with forgotten claims. Mr Karunanidhi would have been wiser to respect the faith of the millions who have prayed in the temple at Rameshwaram, the offshore island also called the Kashi of the South: no prizes for guessing that Rameshwaram is named after Lord Ram. It is interesting that a Sri Lankan, King Parakrama Bahu, built the sanctum sanctorum of the Ramanathswamy temple. Incidentally, "mythology" has an answer to Mr Karunanidhi’s question about whether Lord Ram was an engineer: the bridge between the mainland and Sri Lanka was constructed by Nala, the son of Vishwakarma. But such political wisecracks only trivialise a sensitive issue.

A voter decides on the fate of a ruling party because of a bouquet of reasons. There is rarely just one reason that becomes the decisive driver, submerging others. What parties need to worry about is the tipping point, the final straw that persuades a voter to move from the past to a different future. Many voters, across the country, will be hurt by the insult to Lord Ram and establishment’s inability to do anything about it.

Mr Karunanidhi has one advantage over his critics. He knows that no one cares how you win an election, or what you do to stay in power; the only thing that matters is numbers in an age of coalitions. His allies may fudge and squirm but no one will dare ask him to leave the alliance. <b>If he retains his MPs after the next election, he will be welcome in the next permutation and combination, whatever it might be.
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Power has its own moral, or amoral, code.
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