Historicity Of Jesus

[dhu]

We can fit easily Lindtner and Thundy into the narrative. The Romans created a buffer "ideology" against overt Eastern influences (Persian/Buddhist). Orthodoxy (Right Belief) was substituted for the eightfold path.

Westerners see 'control' as the guiding aspect of all practices and 'beliefs'. In this, they are merely reproducing the neurosis of their conspiracy against the Phoenician nation.

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"Even when I thought, with most other well-informed, though unscholarly, people, that Buddhism and Christianity were alike, there was one thing about them that always perplexed me; I mean the startling difference in their type of religious art... No two ideals could be more opposite than a Christian saint in a Gothic cathedral and a Buddhist saint in a Chinese temple. The opposition exists at every point; but perhaps the shortest statement of it is that the Buddhist saint always has his eyes shut, while the Christian saint always has them very wide open. The Buddhist saint has a sleek and harmonious body, but his eyes are heavy and sealed with sleep. <b>The medieval saint's body is wasted to its crazy bones, but his eyes are frightfully alive. </b>There cannot be any real community of spirit between forces that produced symbols so different than that."

- G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy, "The Romance of Orthodoxy"
http://www.island-of-freedom.com/siddhartha.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

In hinduism,the statues have armonios bodies and eyes open.
The iconography reflect the type of theology or philosophy of the respective religion.
Buddhism being at his core an impersonal religion favorize the inner insight,while the religions who put the accent on devotion(bakti) the open eyes favorize the comunication betwin beliver and the loved god.
There are 2 types of Absolute(BRAHMAN) in the religios thinking
1-PERSONAL as in Vishnu vedanta,vaishnava,Hare Krishna,dvaitaadvaita(bedha-abedha),Ramanuja, Madhva.
1-IMPERSONAL as in Sankara advaita vedanta,shaiva,buddhism,jainism.

The abstract and ascetic(skelethic) christian icons are like this for 3 reasons-
is the influence of platonic concept about the soul(soul whitout shape or form,not of this world).
is the influence of anti-hellenism oriental movement(see palmirian gods of Dura-europos)
http://classics.furman.edu/~rprior/imgs/RCU4/4-107.jpg
http://images.google.ro/imgres?imgurl=http...&tbnw=128&prev=
is the influence of fasting monks(who look skiny)

Many christian statues was made to be ugly in order to avoid erotic attractivness to them <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

[Guest]

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5...9627863972

[ramana]

<!--QuoteBegin-Honsol+Dec 1 2007, 09:34 AM-->QUOTE(Honsol @ Dec 1 2007, 09:34 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5...9627863972
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Thanks a lot!!!

[Shambhu]

Great video (above)..but they say Krishna was born on 900BC. Krishna has been dated (along with the Mahabharat) to before 3000BC, just as the scriptures say.

Then it would be : did world cultures copy Krishna? (and Krishna does not have this resurrection or cross syblolism associated with him either). These guys should examine the very strong possiblility that Krishna is the original, rest are copies with Sun things added to them.

[ramana]

Has anyone come across Micahel Baigent and is book "Jesus Papers"?

I see there is a large number of books that question jesus and christianity more than ever before.

maybe we should make a list of all the books that are already published.

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-Honsol+Dec 1 2007, 12:46 PM-->QUOTE(Honsol @ Dec 1 2007, 12:46 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The abstract and ascetic(skelethic) christian icons are like this for 3 reasons- ....
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It's a nice story which keeps everything close to the comfort zones. Real Asceticism, as opposed to initiation rites, etc, is foreign to the region we are discussing. Even Durant made a note of Alexander's astounded reaction to the "Gymnosophists" and other such "spectacles" from the East. Atwill makes a similar note of the fanaticism of the Jewish Sicarii (from Latin "sica', knife) being an absolute novelty to the greco-romans.

There was even one imbecile who stated that the only Buddhist contribution to the Christian image was the 'halo'. The reality is that even Christian fasting is done without any deeper knowledge or context and is a transplanted and undigested form/shell (without understanding). It is well known that the Greeks took the empty form to unprecedented heights, as evidenced by the macho-gay sensibility permeating their art.

I would suggest a quick google image search for 'Ascetic'.

The "frightfully alive" eyes are a schizophrenic trait; a much too shoddy compensation for lack of civilizational depth.

[dhu]

Christian book list
http://tektonics.org/books/shop02.html

Here's the rating for Atwill:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->    * The Emperor Titus thinks it is garbage, but you can buy this book from Amazon.com and save 30%!
    * Our Rating: Lunacy Presented on Medication<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Anything that gets a bad review should be worth some effort.

[dhu]

John Hudson book reviews on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-revi...SAFTF4JAGV

Jesus Christ: An Artifice for Aggression
by Sita Ram Goel

http://hamsa.org/jesus-fiction2.htm
http://hamsa.org/jesus-fiction3.htm

[dhu]

Jesus as the Light of the World avenges the Hannukah insult to Antiochus Epiphanes. The temple is cleansed of Jews and the Mock Messiah ascends to Heaven eight days later. Notice the progression from Mithridates to Antiochus; even Vatican is built upon a Mithraeum.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->He was a son of Antiochus III the Great and brother of Seleucus IV Philopator. Originally named Mithradates, he assumed the name Antiochus either upon his accession to the throne or after the death of his elder brother Antiochus. Notable events during his reign include the near-conquest of Egypt, which was halted by the threat of Roman intervention, and the beginning of the Jewish revolt of the Maccabees.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->all Canaanites were to be destroyed or driven out of the land. Numbers 33:51-56; Deuteronomy 7:1-5.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Shambhu]

Joe Atwill on new books he plans:

"Two new books - one is on the Flavian invention of rabbinical Judaism and the other is on a group in the middle ages that understood the Jesus/Titus typology and attempted to inform the public. They failed of course but were able to leave us a record and a response to the truth of Christianity.

I hope to have the middle ages book out in 2008.

Joe"

From the CM forum

[dhu]

Barlaam, Josaphat, and Mithra
http://members.aol.com/didymus5/ch21.html

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The old ascetics would have regarded with contempt the practices of Christian monks, who were indeed children when compared with their Eastern ancestors.--The Monks before Christ, by John Edgar Johnson; and Description of the Character, Manners and Customs of the People of India, by Abbe J. A. Dubois.}<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

<!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> It has been a long long time since have posted .The thread has been simply amazing ...a wealth of information and I personally agree with most of the things posted about the historicity .

There is one question though that has troubled me the most ...I have seen a few explanations in other threads in the forum explaining the attitude of Indian Modern Guru's in their writings to praise the jesus...in attempting to reach out to western audiences...

but the writings of most Modern gurus do not stop short of just mentioning...but go on to raise the praise to a crescendo level...

Before I go Further...If there are any devout devotees of some of the swami's I might mention.....I apologize ...This is sincerely my opinion based on their writings.


1.Yogananda---->Autobiography of an Yogi and other works.......

Huge Amount of praise lavished on Jesus ....It is not just one work ....

Their California Branches are all modelled on Churches...Have personally attended them and never found any sembelance of Hinduism nor the peace that comes with it .


2.Swami Sivananda----Divine Life Society of India

I personally respect the swami for many of his brilliant teaching and some of the great work being done by them ...but have been saddenned by the praise heaped again on the teachings of jesus...the mount sermon ...the gospels....


I simply cannot put it away ...with a simplistic explanation of trying to reach the western masses....

Their sphere of Work is India ...so why the need to justify something that did not exist.



3.Swami Rama----Himalayan Institute

Again the Institute does some good work located in Honesdale Philadelphia...but the amount of literature devoted to Jesus is Phenomenal....


The strangest part is all three of them Claim Lineage from the Himalayan Masters....

All of them claim to have met Yukteshwar...

[Guest]

<!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> It has been a long long time since have posted .The thread has been simply amazing ...a wealth of information and I personally agree with most of the things posted about the historicity .

There is one question though that has troubled me the most ...I have seen a few explanations in other threads in the forum explaining the attitude of Indian Modern Guru's in their writings to praise the jesus...in attempting to reach out to western audiences...

but the writings of most Modern gurus do not stop short of just mentioning...but go on to raise the praise to a crescendo level...

Before I go Further...If there are any devout devotees of some of the swami's I might mention.....I apologize ...This is sincerely my opinion based on their writings.


1.Yogananda---->Autobiography of an Yogi and other works.......

Huge Amount of praise lavished on Jesus ....It is not just one work ....

Their California Branches are all modelled on Churches...Have personally attended them and never found any sembelance of Hinduism nor the peace that comes with it .


2.Swami Sivananda----Divine Life Society of India

I personally respect the swami for many of his brilliant teaching and some of the great work being done by them ...but have been saddenned by the praise heaped again on the teachings of jesus...the mount sermon ...the gospels....


I simply cannot put it away ...with a simplistic explanation of trying to reach the western masses....

Their sphere of Work is India ...so why the need to justify something that did not exist.



3.Swami Rama----Himalayan Institute

Again the Institute does some good work located in Honesdale Philadelphia...but the amount of literature devoted to Jesus is Phenomenal....


The strangest part is all three of them Claim Lineage from the Himalayan Masters....

All of them claim to have met Yukteshwar...

4.Ramakrishna Paramahansa/Vivekananda -----Their Contribution in reviving Hinduism in Bengal is immense...but Ramakrishna's work on Islam and Christianity is famous too...


5.The XYZ baba's who have sprung up all over India .


The great saints like


1.Samarth Ramdas of Maharasthra...Did not mince any words in condemning Islam ....He did not feel a need to Justify Islam or Christianity ...


2.Aurobindo----As far as have read his works...never found him even mentioning jesus or islam...


3.Paramacharya of Kanchi -------Did not see a single work attributed to him where even a mention of Other stuff was made ...



<!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> Then Why on earth do the so called new age Swamis find the need to even talk about other stuff....When their primary purpose is Hinduism...why do they find the need to justify a historical falsehood....


And if they cannot see that with their so called Divine Insight...is it even necessary to consider them as gurus .


Looking in Hindsight ...the damage being done by the so called baba's in justifying false christiniaty is helping the masses get converted more easily....

My two cents...

Apologize once again if any followers of babas are hurt......

[Shambhu]

Sarangadhara: I agree. I personally think that there is a stage at which a true seeker like Ramakrisna comes to see Vishnu/Shiva/Kali in everything that he focuses spiritually on. It is an immense error of judgement on the part of these saints to abuse this minor siddhi and try to focus on "faiths" like Islam and Christianity which have been born in blood and are propagated through bloodshed.

This should be told to all people who say, "but but..Ramakrishna saw God while living as a muslim and also a xtian".

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->(David Leeming, Oxford University Press, 2005, page 153), "The lack of cohesion among early Hebrews made monotheism - even monolatry, the exclusive worship of one god among many - an impossibility...And even then it can be argued that the firm establishment of monotheism in Judaism required the rabbinical or Talmudic process of the first century B.C.E. to the sixth century C.E.". link<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Dec 1 2007, 02:05 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Dec 1 2007, 02:05 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Why do Atwill and Hudson call the fabrication and falsification of the Torah with the Gospels a parody? Why dont they just say they are fabrications? Unless you have examples of Roman humor it will be difficult to understand the parody part of it. Especially if you are not European.
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Amazingly, the parts they have been insisting as history have turned out as parodies. So when they insist on the parody nature of "alexamenos worships his god" (the crucified donkey) as well as of tacitus claiming that a donkey was worshipped in the Temple, we can be assured that it is indeed history. The Deity was Set from Egypt. Egyptians and Phoenicians were a symbiotic regime which needed to be rent asunder.

These inferiority-ridden, dark comedian, fratboy, toilet-humor obsessed western clowns made the association between "ass" and ashva as part of their mockery of the Jewish Messiah. The Mock Messiah King enters the Holy City on an ass. Abu Ghraib is only a small taste of this mindset.