Progress Of Indic Languages Vs English

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Padi is cognate with something in Sanskrit, but I thought cognates happen only in related languages.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Of course the Sanskrit dhatu is paTh - to read, from which come nouns pATha - lesson, pATha-sAlA - school, pATha-ka: reader.

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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Cosmopolitan and vernacular
GURCHARAN DAS

I sometimes wonder what language we Indians will be speaking fifty years from now. One possibility is that the status quo will continue — a small elite will be comfortable in English while the masses converse in the vernaculars.

A second prospect is that almost half the population might speak English to varying degrees of comfort. A third option is that there will be a linguistic renaissance of the vernaculars and we might have a bilingual middle class.

A fourth possibility is the Sangh Parivar’s dream of a Hindi rashtra. (Really? I thought it was Hindu Rashtra)

If I were a gambler I would bet on the second scenario. For every Indian mother knows that English is the passport to her child’s future — to a job, to entry into the middle class — and this is why English schools are mushrooming in city slums and villages across India, and English has quietly become an Indian language fifty years after the British left. David Dalby, who measures these things in Linguasphere, predicts that by 2010 India will have the largest number of English speakers in the world.

This may well be what will happen, but is this what we would want to happen? If there were a poll, I suspect most of us would vote for option three for none of us relishes the idea of forgetting our vernacular literary cultures and traditions.

I have recently read a wonderful essay, ‘Cosmopolitan and Vernacular in History’ by Sheldon Pollock, a professor of Sanskrit at the University of Chicago, and he sheds new light on the debate. He writes that the vernacularisation of the Sanskrit world began in the 9th century as Kannada and Telugu became the languages of literary and political expression in the courts of the Rashtrakutas and Chalukyas. About the same time or soon after, Sinhala (9th c.), Javanese (10th), Marathi (13th), Thai (14th), Oriya (15th) began to produce literatures. Tamil, our oldest literary vernacular, also began to express courtly ideas under the imperial Cholas in the 11th c., and Hindi was similarly fashioned by Sufi poets in principalities like Orcha and Gwalior (15th c.). 

{Plain psy-ops.  "vernacularization, whatever itmeans, began much earlier.  You find Mahaviracharitam of 7/8th c, in which each dialogue is a mixture of Sanskrit and Prakrit. Even you find Sanskrit drama of earlier written in Skt 'dialects'.  Jain text kuvalayamala of 7th c mentions the dealings of merchant in madhyadesh, who discuss in Marathi and other local languages. Valmiki Ramayana records the dilemma of Hanuman when he met Sitadevi for the first time in Asok vatika, whether he must address her in Sanskrit or in some other language, for the fear that if he spoke Skt, she may take him to be a spy of Ravana.}

Pollock <b>teaches us</b> that our vernaculars were ‘created’ and are not primordial, as many vernacular nationalists would like to think. Also, the bearers of these languages were the elite and not the people, as Gramschi and Bakhtin had made us believe. Neither is the spread of our vernaculars related to the popularity of bhakti as many historians have told us; finally, we were always relaxed about our languages and the consciousness of a ‘mother tongue’ did not even appear until the Europeans arrived. Interestingly, in Europe, vernacularisation of Latin happened at the same time, but there it led to the nation-state. 

Prior to our vernacular millennium, for a thousand years or more our literary world was cosmopolitan as Sanskrit held sway over South Asia, and as Latin did in Europe. Pollock says, ‘‘there was nothing unusual about finding a Chinese traveller studying Sanskrit grammar in Sumatra in the 7th century, an intellectual from Sri Lanka writing Sanskrit literary theory in the northern Deccan in the tenth, or Khymer princes composing Sanskrit poetry for the magnificent pillars of Mebon and Pre Rup in Ankor in the twelfth.’’ Again, unlike Europe where Latin was the language of power and the Roman state, the Sanskrit cosmopolis was dharmic and voluntaristic — the Shakas and Kushanas, for example, as they migrated into India adopted Sanskrit and its culture.

<b>This makes one realise that the Sangh Parivar’s project of linking power with language is so un-Indian. Language for us has always been a vehicle of aesthetic distinction and not of power. While I regret the loss of tradition, I also think that languages and cultures are evolving things and we ought not to do too much social engineering. Hence, vernacular nationalism is also unhealthy. Let’s think of the global ascent of English as another cosmopolitan phase in our history, and perhaps not worry too much about the language we will speak fifty years hence.</b>  {How fast he jumped from one suggestion to the other, not bothering to either connect one to the next, or show rationale of, but forced quickly down the throat of the reader}

timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/39700213.cms
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[ramana]

Urdu is already linked to power. Gurucharn Das should read more before writing such drivel.

A question for folks can urdu be Devnagarised?

[Shambhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Nov 28 2007, 02:19 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Nov 28 2007, 02:19 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->A question for folks can urdu be Devnagarised?
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Well, the all the Urdu words in Hindi can be (and are) written in devanaagari, eg waqt, wafaa, takleef etc etc..

I am very sure that 100% pure Urdu, too, can be written in devanagari..

(PS ..but the meaning of Urdu terms like Nazaakat, Tassawwoof, and Inaayat etc need to be known to the devanaagari reader, if not, he will be able to read evertyjing but not be able make sense of what he has read..)

[ramana]

I dont care. If there is takleef so be it. I want the script changed. I want a new movement that writes urdu in Devnagari for the IM.

[Guest]

Devanagarising Urdu is like spraying perfume on feces.

[Shambhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Nov 28 2007, 05:40 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Nov 28 2007, 05:40 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont care. If there is takleef so be it. I want the script changed. I want a new movement that writes urdu in Devnagari for the IM.
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I agree. If Urdu speakers were to give up the Arabic script they now use and use devanaagari instead, that would
1.bring them closer to mainstream India.
2. Hindi speakers would be able to read what is written on Muslim nwspapers etc (which are currently in the Arabic script)

All in all, mutual suspicion would go down.

[Shambhu]

OT, but Language-related

Welcoming the Prime Minister to the multi-party reception attended by over 100 MPs and 200 community leaders to celebrate the Hindu festival of light, Ramesh Kallidai, secretary general of the Hindi Forum of Britain said, “One of the meanings of the word ‘Gordon’ in Gaelic is a ‘hill with meadows’ . But in Sanskrit, the sacred language of the Hindus, we have a word for this too. It is a name for Lord Krishna, and it also refers to a sacred hill, called ‘Govardhan’. We would therefore like to welcome you as an honorary member of our community, not as Gordon Brown, but as Govardhan Brown.”
http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1516

[Bharatvarsh]

I noticed "maananeeya" in Bodhi's post in TSP thread, this means honourable/venerable, this is interesting because in Old Telugu Mannana means respect (now Gauravam is used) and Mannimpu is forgiveness, in Tamizh Mannan becomes leader I think (eg: Tamizhmannan) and Mannimpu is forgiveness.

These words in Telugu are supposed to be "Dravidian" but they bear close similarity to Sanskrit Maanam (Honour).

I have been noticing numerous words supposed to be Telugu (i.e not derived from Sanskrit) that have parallels in Sanskrit or other North languages.

Examples include:

1) Kukka (dog) = Kuttha (dog)
2) Matti/Mannu (soil) = Mitti (soil)
3) Pasaramu (animal in old Telugu) = Pasu (animal in skt)
4) Karri (black/dark in Telangana dialect) = Kaaru (black in Gujarati)

I have noticed other words also but forget now.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1) Kukka (dog) = Kuttha (dog)
2) Matti/Mannu (soil) = Mitti (soil)
3) Pasaramu (animal in old Telugu) = Pasu (animal in skt)
4) Karri (black/dark in Telangana dialect) = Kaaru (black in Gujarati)
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pillee (cat) in telugu = billee in hindi

though dont try this with its akaaraant:
pillaa (little girl) in telugu but a puppy in Hindi <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->pillee (cat) in telugu = billee in hindi<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes that one also.

Others I remembered:

Kadava (pot) = Karva (as in Karva Chauth, where it also means pot)

Kaavidi (kaawaDi, kaawiDi, kaawiDii n. carrying pole, i.e., pole borne on a man's shoulder from which two burdens of equal weight are suspended, one at either end), I heard they use somthing similar for this in Hindi.

[Bharatvarsh]

Bodhi do you have any info on this asshole, legacy of Urdu "heritage":
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Islamism immediately revived the lost cause of Urdu behind the smoke-screen of this Communist campaign against Hindi. It lauded loudly when progressive Urdu poets like Firaq Gorakhpuri lampooned Hindi in a language which was largely unprintable. Simultaneously, Islamism started parading Urdu as the great language of culture and refinement which will be lost to India for good if Urdu was allowed to go under. No Communist came forward to examine this �culture and refinement as a legacy of decadent Muslim courts and a frivolous Muslim aristocracy. No Communist questioned the heavy Persianisation and Arabicisation of Urdu which made it incomprehensible even to educated people, leave alone the man in Chandni Chowk. The recognition of Urdu as a second language has today become a sine qua non of Secularism.

http://www.voiceofdharma.com/books/hsus/ch6.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[ramana]

This Sanskrit/Dravidian construct is also another artificial one created by Colonists. The more correct one is there is Sanskrit and there are Prakrits. Sanskrit was the court language and the rest are in the provinces.

Telugu is developed around 600 AD as Desi and evolved to present form around 1300 AD. I think that all South Indian languages and parts of middle India are forms of Desi. The big difference is they have different scripts. Need to figure out why.


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The period of Andhra history, between A.D.624 and A.D.1323, spanning over seven centuries, is significant for the sea-change it brought in all spheres of the human activity; social, religious, linguistic and literary. <b>During this period, Desi, the indigenous Telugu language, emerged as a literary medium overthrowing the domination of Prakrit and Sanskrit.</b> As a result, Andhradesa achieved an identity and a distinction of its own as an important constituent of Indian Cultural set-up.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Link: http://www.aponline.gov.in/quick%20links/h...ry_ancient.html

So other languages could have evolved in a similar fashion from Sanskrit and Prakrit which accounts for common words between say Telugu and Gujarati.

Pandyan, I see Shambu has answered you. Another way of looking is how waste material is transformed into compost which is a useful product by removing the problem causing part via anaerobic digestion so will changing the script re-Indianize those folks.


Until King Edward forbade the use of French in his English Court the languag of he elite was French after teh Norman Conquest in 1066.

After that English developed in England by cutting the links to the conquest and the Continent. Similarly India has to Devanagarize Urdu. Most folks read Urdu in English script now on Internet. If that OK why is it not OK to Devnagarize it? Maybe they should be in Telugu considering the long association of Islamic rule and Deccan! Actualy Urdu was also called Deccani by the Persianised Mughals!

The West wont let that happen and claim discrimination. To that my answer is language has always changed its script as can be seen in history.

[ramana]

A AP Gov history of evolution of Telugu

Languages

[Guest]

National Poet Sri Maithili Sharan Gupta says in "Bharat Bharati" :

yah sampratik shiksha hamaare sarvatha pratikool hai
hamame hamaare desh ke prati, dvesh-mati kee mool hai

hoti nahi usase hame nij-tatva me anurakti hai,
hone na deti poorvajo par vah hamaari bhakti hai

usame videshi-maan ka hee moh-poorna-mahatva hai
phal anta me usaka? vahi daasatva hai! daasatva hai!
===

{the contemporary education is entirely against us,
is the root of why our minds are full of contempt for own country
it does not allow us to develop a liking for what are our own tatva
and does not let us be emotionally proud of our ancestors
and only cultivates respect and reverence towards external elements
but what will be the end result? same: slavery and only slavery!}

and prays:
===
maanas-bhavan me aarya-jan jisaki utaare aarati
bhagvaan bharatvarsh me goonje hamari bhaarati
ho bhadra-bhaavodbhaavini vah bhaarati he bhagavate,
seeta-patey, seeta-patey! geeta-matey geeta-matey!

{She, who has been worshipped by the noble men
Bhagwan, let that our indic continue to be echoed throughout Bharatvarsh
Let that Bharati also continue to nourish the noblest ideas,
O Lord husband of Seeta, and O Lord singer of Geeta}

[Guest]

I came across a nice piece of simple yet great Hindi poetry by Awadh Behari Srivastava. Posting for enjoyment of those who can read Hindi. context: a lower-middle class housewife's appeal to the clouds: 'pls don't come'.

बादल मत आना इस देश....

साडी एक मांग कर लाई
तब अपनी धोकर फैलाई
उसको भी वह लेने आयी
तुम आए तो सूख न पाए, मर्यादा को ठेस
बादल मत आना इस देश....

छोटू को बुखार है कल से
उसे शीत लग जाती जल से
अबला क्या कर सकती है बल से
पानी जहां न टपके घर में , ऐसी जगह न शेष
बादल मत आना इस देश....

पिया हमारे घाटी घाटी
खोज रहे सोने की माटी
मेरी पीड़ा कभी न बांटी
कुछ लाएं तो घर बनवाएं, अभी न देना क्लेश
बादल मत आना इस देश....

अब तुझको क्या क्या बतलाना
जाड़ा है, हरगिज मत आना
यदि आए, निश्चित मर जाना
घर में नहीं रजाई कोई, और न कोई खेस
बादल मत आना इस देश....

वैसे भी तुम इधर न आना
यक्षप्रिया के घर रह जाना
लाठी का है यहां ज़माना
और भरोसा नही किसी का, बिगड़ा है परिवेश
बादल मत आना इस देश....

अवध बिहारी श्रीवास्तव

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Dec 11 2007, 02:37 PM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Dec 11 2007, 02:37 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Bodhi do you have any info on this
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Urdu poets like Firaq Gorakhpuri [right][snapback]76028[/snapback][/right]
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Bharatvarsh, Firaq Gorakhpuri was an Urdu poet par-excellence.

First of all, he preferred natural urdu, avoiding unnecessary import of Arabi-Farsi. He certainly signaled a departure of urdu language from orthodox Farsi-leaning Urdu to a new, natural, Hindi-turning, and pleasant to hear Urdu for a Hindi-speaker.

By the way, dont go by his pen-name "Firaq". He was very much a Hindu, his real name was Raghupati Sahay, and as his pen-name says he was from Gorakhpur.

Unlike some other Urdu poets - such as Ali Sardar Jafri (also from his neighbourhood - Balrampur) he did not have an "agenda" which he tried to fulfill through poetry.

I remember reading one of Ali Sardar Jafri's najm in newspapers, which he had written in eulogy to the USSR at the time when it was broken up. "Alvia ae surkha parcham, surkh parcham alvida." Jafri was not only heavy communist-leaning, but also used such language which an ordinary Hindi-speaker will find very hard to understand as compared to a persian-speaker. (Incidentally A B Vajpayee gifted a book of Jafri to Nawaz Sharif on his trip to Lahore. I think he should have gifted a book of Abdurrahim Khankhana or even of Firaq Gorakhpuri)

Two more of Urdu poets of importance from that era, and incidentally from the same neighbourhood of east-UP are: Majrooh Sultanpuri, and Jigar Moradabadi (who actually was not really from Muradabad but Gonda). Both of the later ones, certainly Majrooh, also helped Urdu poetry becoming closer to Hindi. I am not too sure about Jigar on this point, but somehow Jigar seems to have become more of a symbol for new Urdu-"resurgence" and islamization.

I shall post my thoughts on progress of Urdu and its conflicts with other indic languages in detail later.

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One of the close friends of my grand father used to teach us children Hindi and Sanskrit. Apart from being a full-time teacher, he was also a priest by interest and I have not seen such a wonderful priest in my life so far - he would be deeply emptionally involved in the rituals and even make his jajmaan so during the karma-kanda. He was not only a master at classical sanskrit but also vedic sanskrit he used to know well, and remembered who knows how many mantra-s. Having also learnt Arabi from Arya Samaj schools he also used to take some interest in Urdu poetry. (Arya samaj used to have Arabic courses back then, so that Hindus can refute mullas on their own turf)

But anyways, I would remember this event he and my grand father used to recall about an Urdu Mushayara (kavi-sammelan). Both of them, early in their life, used to teach in Aligarh Muslim University for a couple of years. Mushayara-s and shayari competitions were (may be still are) common there.

The format of such competition used to be that part of the line will be fixed, and the remaining line has to be completed by the competing poets. Whoever does the best job of completing the 'sher' using this line, won the competition.

Once, as they used to narrate, they were passing by where a mushayara was taking place in a lecture room. The line was "Kaafir hai jo banda nahi islam kaa" - (he who does not follow islam is kafir). And of course, AMU being the hotbed of faithfuls, all kafir-bashing was going on.

This friend of my grandfather - as they used to tell us - could not hold himself and jumped on to the dias and quickly drew with chalk on the blackboard a rough picture of child-krishna. In arabic there is a character called 'laam' which corresponds to 'la' in indic languages or 'L' in english. In arabic script it very much looks like a curl. In the picture that he quickly drew the hair of Krishna were all curls looking like 'laam', and then he read this line:

<b>laam jaisa gesu hai mere ghanshyam kaa
kaafir hai jo banda nahi "is laam" kaa</b>

{hair of krishna are like laam (of arabic)
he is kaafir who is not a follower of this-laam}

what followed, used to make for another lengthy tale in their long sessions over tea. In nutshell, they vacated AMU and took shelter elsewhere.

[Guest]

generator = janitra
airconditioner = vAtAnukUlaka
refrigerator = prasItaka (?)

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At our place, (now only in rural areas) belt is known as 'peTI' (pay-Tea). what is belt called in other languages?

[Bharatvarsh]

"At our place, (now only in rural areas) belt is known as 'peTI' (pay-Tea). what is belt called in other languages? "

Pataka and i think chooshakam in Telugu, not used anymore.

[Guest]

Try cummerbund
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->n.  A broad sash, especially one that is pleated lengthwise and worn as an article of formal dress, as with a dinner jacket.
[Origin: 1610–20; < Hindi kamarband loin-band < Pers] <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Shambhu]

belt is "pattaa" in Marathi