Historicity Of Jesus

[dhu]

The Mock Messiah as the salt of the Earth:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.centralcal.com/crist1.htm
Christian timeline :

...

68-69 Nero commits suicide, resulting in a quick succession of emperors--Galba, Vitellius, Otho, and finally Vespasian.

70 Jerusalem destroyed by Titus. A Heavenly voice is supposedly heard in Yavneh declaring that the Jews should follow the teachings of Hillel over Shammai.

<b>71 The Romans cut down every tree in Israel and salt the land to punish the Jews for the rebellion.</b>

73 Masada taken, and the assassins who have held out against the Romans commit suicide. The Christian Jews return to Jerusalem.

79 Vespasian dies; succeeded by son Titus. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[dhu]

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/ancients...udges.html
<img src='http://www.meridianmagazine.com/ancients/images/hornedaltar.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.civilization.ca/civil/israel/images/dss234as.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

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http://ehlt.flinders.edu.au/theology/insti...erranean/egypt/
<img src='http://ehlt.flinders.edu.au/theology/institute/mediterranean/egypt/images/Luxor_altar.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->A 12th-century BCE altar in the temple area at Luxor. This shape and Egyptian styled altar eventually influenced the design of the Jerusalem temple altar. Note the four "horns" on each corner of the altar -- symbols of life, protection and fertility.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the metaphors expanding on you are the light of the world. Schweizer considers that the city on a hill metaphor may be a reference to Mount Zion at the start of Isaiah 2, though scholars are divided on whether this is a specific reference to the idea of a New Jerusalem, or simply an obvious metaphor in relation to not hiding. <b>According to Hill, the candle under a bowl metaphor could be a satirical swipe at the Jewish practice of hiding the Hanukkah lamp to protect it from desecration. </b>Both Matthew and Luke resolve this metaphor by stating that the candle should be put on a stand, but while <b>Matthew </b>states that the lamp shines on all who are in the house, implying conversion from within the community, <b>Luke </b>has the lamp shining for those who come into the house, implying new people joining it. Isaiah talks about the light in verses 42:6, 49:6, and 60:3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_and_Light
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[Shambhu]

Re ISKON:

1. I too don't like their "demigod" business. I go to ISKON gatherings weekly, but I am a Shaiva, always will be. I like Veera rasa more than bhakti rasa or shringaar rasa. I like Krisna too, but as non-different from Shiva. The difference is only at our end (the devotee's).

2. As I said before, I hate their jehovallah business. Prabhupada gives lectures on how authorized he is, and calls others "mayawadi" etc, but then goes on to praise jesus and allah. Where the $%^& did he get the "authorization" for *that*? Our scriptures--Praphupada, as all know, loves to back up all that he says with scripture--do not mention any jesus or allah.

3. Krishna said "I work to set an example, even though I do not need to work" (to paraphrase). Likewise, ISKON needs to set an example, and avoid treating Jesus and Allah as paths to God, because no matter what ISKON's interpretation of these latter day "religions" may be, they have to *see* the baggage they come with. (ie missionarism, wanton violence, cultural destruction, division, secession etc). You cannot be encouraging Jesus-worship and Allah-worship knowing fully well what these things lead to.

4. I think Prabhupada read the Abrahamic mind correctly: give them one thing to worship, and one only. He talks sweet about jesus and allah to attract concerts. Remember, this was a movement for the West primarily. Different strokes for different folks. Jehovallah is OK for the ridiculously un-spiritual West, at least it gets them somewhat on track...but will not work for the Indic.

[dhu]

Per wiki, Orientalism was <i>institutionalized </i>with Diocletian (284 to 305 AD) of the Tetrarchy. Constantine ascended in 307 AD and he retired to the Eastern portion with the purported full regalia of a sultan.

Of course, the seeds of Orientalism had been sown long before.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism

The precise, original distinction between the "West" and the "East" is difficult to ascertain. Because of the Graeco-Persian, Athenian historians drew a sharp, distinguishing line between their civic culture and Persian despotism, but <b>the institutional distinction, between East and West, did not exist as a defined polarity before the Oriens- and Occidens-divided administration of the Emperor Diocletian's Roman Empire, </b>however<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-ashyam+Dec 14 2007, 07:47 AM-->QUOTE(ashyam @ Dec 14 2007, 07:47 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-prem+Dec 14 2007, 06:54 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(prem @ Dec 14 2007, 06:54 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Christopher Hitchens
...Krishna was born of the virgin Devaka,...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Somebody is spreading this false rumour.</b> Krishna was eighth son of Vasudeva and Devaki.
[right][snapback]76144[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->"Somebody is spreading this false rumour. (of Krishna being born of a virgin)"
Yes, western 'scholarship' like that of "Acharya S" and similar.
They see how Mithra and some other traditions prove their point, but then they invent the further dots they require to draw the straight line they'd always wanted to draw. Then they write how Hindoos who say otherwise just don't know how our Krishna's birthday was "actually" on the 25th of December like that of Mithra and how our Devaki "was in fact a virgin too". While western 'scholar' knows. Poor, confused Hindoos with our long-held and long-transmitted traditions (like GokulAshtami), what do we know. And we must remember: "What western 'scholar' says is always right." (And even when it's pseudoscholarship.)

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Shambhu+Dec 15 2007, 12:58 AM-->QUOTE(Shambhu @ Dec 15 2007, 12:58 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I think Prabhupada read the Abrahamic mind correctly: give them one thing to worship, and one only. He talks sweet about jesus and allah to attract concerts.  Remember, this was a movement for the West primarily. Different strokes for different folks. Jehovallah is OK for the ridiculously un-spiritual West, at least it gets them somewhat on track...but will not work for the Indic.
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This I agree. At least some basic things like kIrtan, vegetarianism, respect for gau-tulasi: this they are spreading in west. And at least I don't see any harm to larger Indic faiths in anyways.

My exposure to ISKCON happened for a heavily selfish reason on my part. Those days I was living in Melbourne AU and had absolutely no option of a pure vegetarian place to go to for food when I could not cook (often). There were many Indian (even S.Indian) restaurants - but I could not find a no-non-vegetarian one. Then I came to know about ISKCON, and used their kitchen at times. Well I used to donate what I thought was appropriate to pay for the food and was thankful to them for it. (namak khaya hai)

Like ISKCON, BAPS (Swami Narayana) is turning out to be a similar org?

And by the way this demigod thing is neither novel nor exclusive of ISKCON. There is a whole tradition of it since long time before Sri prabhupAda. He is merely extending it to west.

[ramana]

Shambu, Husky and Bodhi, Don't mind lekin, please take the discussion of ISKCON to another thread. It sure is disruptive. I know you folks are talking amongst yourselves but there is a boatload of folks trying to follow dhu which is germane to this thread topic. I log into IF only to read this and the elections threads first.

Thanks, ramana

[Shambhu]

Wokay saar sorree <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Bithynia wiki entry:

But the last king, Nicomedes IV, was unable to maintain himself against Mithridates VI of Pontus, and, after being restored to his throne by the Roman Senate, he bequeathed his kingdom by will to the Roman republic (74 BC).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Bithynia contains Nicea. Also Piso family which married into Judio-claudians had familial connections to Pontus.

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1 Peter is not the only evidence we have for Christian groups and their relations with others in the cities of Bithynia and Pontus. I<b>n fact, one of the very few early references to followers of Christ in “pagan” literature pertains to this region, </b>so it is worth taking a closer look at the letters of <b>Pliny the Younger, the specially appointed Roman governor of Bithynia and Pontus (c. 110-12 CE). </b>These ancient letters provide us with glimpses into social, religious, and political life in the cities of the province and shed important light on Roman rule overall. In the process of fulfilling his duties, Pliny encountered associations on several occasions, including his infamous dealings with Christians.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Atwill hypothesizes Pliny Elder's (as Josephus) hand in fashioning the Gospels. Pontus, d/t its association with Mithridates (Rome's second greatest enemy after Hannibal) was one of the prime regions needing pacification.

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->RodephEmet

The popular academics who specialize in Christian study try to prove the New Testament's veracity by showing how it fits in with the Old Testament(Brown, et al)  <b>But most scholars don't know that the Old Testament was created in order to retrofit with the New Testament. That is the primary reason that the Romans burned the torahs.</b>

People don't take Jewish scholars seriously who have explored this area. They dismiss Abelard Reuchlin's work and are afraid to be put into his category of scholarship. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Back projection is very evident in British manipulation of Sikh traditions. Originally formulated as a sword arm of the natives, we can notice the hindu elements at every turn, just as we can notice the imprints of elohim (plural !!!) and baal in the jewish scripture. A monotheistic struggle of a line of iconoclastic Prophet/Gurus was back projected onto the authentic history.

[dhu]

Hannibal had a Jewish tutor. There must be a conceit hidden in this affirmation; that is, Hannibal's descendants devolved into Jews. The proud line into the Ghetto. Ethnic ghetto and national-linguistic ethnic identity (as opposed to the interspecies-type caste designations common to the East) characterized the Greco-Roman (and possibly ME) space.

Ahistoricity of Egypt under Ptolemies mirrors that of the Jews. The Jews have a lament that they endure history and do not partake in its production. It's a curious lament for a history-centric tradition.

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->On the tetradrachms of Mithridates IV, Perseus is shown standing, holding in his right hand the severed head of Medusa and in his left hand his .<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[dhu]

The Sikhs will be lauded as the active principle acting upon the passive body of the idolatrous Hindus. Where is the evidence for their manipulation other than a Jarnail and karnail interspersed here and there. At most we have a few lines of incoherent theosophy, much less than the septuagint tracts distributed to the Hannibal remnants.

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you think that Alexander the Great may have had a hand in establishing monothesism in Judea? Scholars have speculated that words 'Yahweh' may be a transliteration of 'Jove'. If not, how were the gods of Judea replaced.

Joe <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://jesus-messiah.com/html/jove-is-yahweh.html

Yahweh is not the true name of the God of the Israelites.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[dhu]

Greek clowns actually had the audacity to launch a 'most oldest civilization' polemic with the Egyptians. Wiki page of Mithridates VI boldly places the Persian use of the Perseus origin narrative under a 'Propaganda' section. The Ancients knew the outbound history; even Shri Kaushal remarked that Persians knew the Sindhu boundary as inviolate.

[ramana]

Question in a class about world history

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->9. Jesus of Nazareth preached a pacifistic religion that one would have suspected to have died with him. Instead, by the end of the fourth century, Christianity had conquered Europe. What were (are) the basic teachings of Jesus, and how do you account for Christianity's appeal?

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[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.pbs.org/thinktank/transcript1019.html

Hershel Shanks: I agree with Eric, in general, the text closely follows today what we have from two thousand years ago. And the Dead Sea Scrolls brought us back an additional thousand years. The oldest Hebrew Bible that we had was about a thousand (AD). Now we have those texts going back another thousand years. While that is all true, some of the most interesting things are the differences that we find. And in the Hebrew Bible, for example, in Deuteronomy Thirty-two it talks about the land being distributed according to the sons of Israel. That doesn’t make any sense because, at the time they’re talking about, Israel hasn’t been established. <b>And in the Qumran text that we now have, it says that it was distributed again, according to the sons of God--in Hebrew. </b>And there was a version of it that said according to the sons of God<b>. And you have that in the Hebrew Bible, so the suspicion is that it had a polytheistic stain to it, so that it was changed to the sons of Israel in the Hebrew text.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+-->QUOTE(ramana)<!--QuoteEBegin-->post 221

Dhu, Please explain this Egyptian and Phoenican symbiotic regime that was dominating the Mediterranean. In fact after Cleopatra, Egypt slips from history and remains ahistorical. The Old Testament keeps talking of the crossing of the Red Sea as the end of that relationship. Why did the Romans/Westerners need to break up this symbiosis?
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Moses is the one who proclaims the new Deity Yahweh to the 'Nation'. If Yahweh is Jove (and it could very well be given that the linguist clowns cannot postulate any suitable derivation for yahweh other than 'to be' and other convoluted "parodies"), then the problems are solved. Even DSS was evolved under greek tutelage. Persian post exile stuff is pure delusion; eminent scholars remark how even fire temples are missing from Israel.