BJP Future - 5

01-24-2008, 11:34 PM

Could you explain me what is the connection between Nazism and RSS, I know there is connection between Nazim, Hitler and Christian or Indian National Congress and facism, communist are liked with genocide, fascism and Nazism, Germany and Nazism.

01-24-2008, 11:37 PM

QUOTE(Amit_Rajpal @ Jan 24 2008, 11:02 PM)If one considers "Nazism" to be an valid object of hatred, is the RSS then to be considered a valid object of hatred?
Oh, no. One more denizen of the internet who comes to play word games with us.
QUOTEThe "plotting" statements suggest paranoia.
Never mind what they suggest. Tell us if you think they are true or false.
QUOTEDoes the thinking of Gandhi have any influence on these attitudes?
No. Now go away.

01-24-2008, 11:42 PM

QUOTEOh, no. One more denizen of the internet who comes to play word games with us. 
Nah !! pure commie maoist nazist troll <!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

ramana · 01-26-2008, 01:02 AM

Did Advani's 'Bharat Ratna' gambit trip Vajpayee?

On the other hand it tripped the UPA plans to give the award to Commies like Basu to keep themselves in power.

01-26-2008, 01:17 AM

QUOTE(Amit_Rajpal @ Jan 26 2008, 12:38 AM)So, Bharatvarsh, can one reconcile exclusive worship of one religion with tolerance of other religions?
This is the perfect question to pose to those other religions you are talking about. Also, perhaps, one must start with a definition of tolerance. What is tolerance? Does it mean, acceptance of other religions as true, as true as one's own tradition? This cannot possibly be extended to intolerant monotheisms. After all, when Christians believe that Jesus is the only way to reach God, and there exists no other way, and that the Gods of other religions are demons, then there is no place to believe in both.

Or does tolerance mean, allowing their followers to coexist and practice their religions without interference, as long as they don't interfere with ours? That is already the case in India!
QUOTEIs the religious search to be to discover the divine within oneself or to seek to suppress all competing organized religions? Again, a rhetorical question from you. Perhaps you should stop thinking of us as "childish propagandists" and you will be less predisposed to condescend to us.
QUOTEIs anyone here familiar enough with the history and goals of the RSS to be able to distinguish it from the Hitler Youth?Why is the RSS of relevance to any other question here?

QUOTEIs it really believed that fewer than 15% of the population represent an existential threat to 85% of the population? Yes. When Muslims were less than 15% of India's population, they were able to rule us. When the British were less than 1% of India's population, they were able to rule us. I realize that this does not necessarily answer the question of an existential threat, but a threat of political and cultural dominance is formidable threat all by itself.

QUOTEIf not, what is the real purpose of hate propaganda? I don't know. We just love to hate!

01-26-2008, 03:51 AM

Amit,

Are you familiar with Goodwin's law which states:
QUOTE"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

You seem have pushed the probability to one with just two posts! So I guess this where it ends, right?

Thanks for participation. Thread back on track please..,

01-26-2008, 03:58 AM

Pakistan envoy meets BJP presidentQUOTEInsiders in the BJP felt the party's resurgence after the victories in Gujarat and Himachal Pradesh made foreign diplomats see a distinct possibility of the BJP's return to power at the national level.

**acharya** · 01-26-2008, 04:56 AM

QUOTE(Viren @ Jan 25 2008, 10:21 AM)Amit,
You seem have pushed the probability to one with just two posts!Â So I guess this where it ends, right?

Thanks for participation. Thread back on track please..,
[right][snapback]77602[/snapback][/right]


Let us get back to the thread. Let us not derail the threads

Bharatvarsh · (This post was last modified: 01-26-2008, 06:42 AM by Bharatvarsh.)

QUOTEIf one considers "Nazism" to be an valid object of hatred, is the RSS then to be considered a valid object of hatred?

"Tolerance is obviously not uniquely Hindu (plenty of pagan cultures had this, something quite alien to Christianity, Islam, Nazism or Communism)". This is something I agree with. Zorastrianism as mediated through Judaism, Islam and Christianity and the to their secular sequelae. 
RSS being an valid or invalid onject of hatred will have to be decided after weighing it's ideology in the light of evidence we have, if it can be shown that it is similar to Nazism then it is valid.
QUOTESo, Bharatvarsh, can one reconcile exclusive worship of one religion with tolerance of other religions?
Yes one can, as long as one doesn't go about massacring "unbelievers".

There are many Vaishnavas who will not worship any other deity as the supreme other than Vishnu, but that's ok as long as they don't impose their belief on others.
QUOTEIs the religious search to be to discover the divine within oneself or to seek to suppress all competing organized religions?
Firstly not all "religions" if one can call them that believe in the "divine" (i am assuming you mean "God" here)

The answer to your question can only be given by the "religions" under question, according to Islam and Christianity one of their goals is to supress all other religions whether organized or unorganized.

QUOTEIs anyone here familiar enough with the history and goals of the RSS to be able to distinguish it from the Hitler Youth?
Maybe you can enlighten us.

Do you think we will get scared if you just brandish "Hitler" out of nowhere and make nonsensical comparisons?

If RSS was really as capable as Nazis as you childishly assert there would be no democracy in India today.

How long did it take the Nazis to get to power?

RSS has been there for nearly 80 years, if they are like the dreaded Hitler youth you wouldn't be writing this nonsense today, instead you would be in some slave camp or shot dead for going against RSS.
QUOTEIs it really believed that fewer than 15% of the population represent an existential threat to 85% of the population?

If not, what is the real purpose of hate propaganda?
Didn't your kind ask the same question before 1947?

They said "Is it really believed that fewer than 25% of the population represent an existential threat to 73% of the population?"

But didn't the same "minority" then demand 30% of the land and get it?

Or are you blind to history?

Also by this logic since card carrying Nazis or KKK or Communists did not even represent 10% of the world population so they were no danger to the rest of the world, do you agree with that?

What "hate propaganda" do you have in mind?

You mean stating the truth about Islam and Christianity is "hate propaganda"?

I will not reply in this thread again, mods can shift the posts to the thread deemed appropriate.

Shambhu · (This post was last modified: 01-26-2008, 07:17 AM by Shambhu.)

AmitR says:

1. It is clear that "hate" is not tolerance.

2. The "plotting" statements suggest paranoia.

3. Does the thinking of Gandhi have any influence on these attitudes?

---------------

Umm...where exactly do you mean by #1?

2. Are you not aware of the plots by the Pope to convert India? Or the plots of jehadis to kill Indians? Do you think I meant the whole world was plotting against us when I said what I said? Wanna re-read?

3. Where did Gandhi come from?

His Adulltness Amit Rajpalsahib interprets everything the way he wants to, generalizes away, and then reaches deep down into his bag of stereotypes. All of us childish propagandists can only watch the Master in awe and take notes on our saffron pads.... <!--emo& Smile

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**acharya** · 01-26-2008, 07:38 AM

Christianity Exposed
17/08/2006 14:52:30 Synonymous
CHRISTIANITY EXPOSED
By SYNONYMOUS
Expertise of Vatican in the dubious arts of deception and manipulation has never been in suspect. Appearing to run with the hare but hunting with the hounds has been the unique contribution of ace propagandists from Vatican to the world of manipulative mass communication. There are many reasons to believe that Hitler was hand in gloves with the Pope during the holocaust days and his master media manipulator Goebbels was deputed from Vatican. The terrible tradition continued and Vatican always succeeded in saving the Church from storms of controversies and gospels of truth. In recent times, very few people would have realised their trick when a Church sponsored âDa Vinci Codeâ almost saved the Church from complete devastation at the hands of a little noticed âGospel of Judasâ. But with the well researched confirmation of âGospel of Judasâ by the National Geographic team (http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/g...index.html), Christianity stands completely exposed. Now the Church is nothing but a fortress without foundation and poor Jesus hangs completely naked in the cross of truth.

Cunning Church at its Best
There may be very few children who have not heard the bed-time story of the wicked wolf and poor goat. For those who have not heard, here is the crux. âOnce upon a time a ravenous wolf happened by the house of a goat and her seven kids. The wicked wolf knocked on the door and begged the kids to open it. Disobeying their motherâs instructions, the kids opened the door. Snarling with glee, the wolf devoured the kids one by one, smacking his lips and licking his chops all the whileâ¦â¦.â Over many generations, the wicked wolf had remained the most cursed and no one ever had any sympathies for it. But how will you feel if it gets revealed that it was the mother goat which had actually sent the wolf to its own house because she thought it is quite a burden to bring up so many kids? Who is the real villain? The wolf or the goat? Our poor Christian brethren are in a similar situation. Millions believed in the story of a wicked Judas betraying a saintly Jesus and the son of god opting for crucifixion taking along with him all the sins of humanity till then. What a great deed, until the accidental discovery of âGospel of Judasâ in early 1940s changed all that. The story of bible stood upside down. Judas, who hanged himself with guilt, proved to be the real Christ and Jesus a cheeky villain.

But Vatican was determined not to let it happen easily. The Goebbels knew that the âGospel of Judasâ would get authenticated sooner or later. The best option in front of them was to kick up a more eye-catching (but weak in substance) controversy so that the fatal gospel would pass as a down rated hurricane. The âbrilliantâ idea of âDa Vinci Codeâ was thus born. Dan Brown is a typical church grown guinea pig and the mantle of generating the hurricane fell on him. The stamp of Vatican and the evil church can be easily identified on Dan Brown and other producers of the movie for anyone who is willing to spend some time. The book was launched almost at the same time the article authenticating âGopsel of Judasâ came up in National Geographic. Catholic Church all over the world took extra efforts in kicking up the controversy regarding the Code in no time. Both the movie and book was promoted by the church by organizing protests and demonstrations against it. Side by side they arranged seminars and study classes to get the poor laity convinced about the falsehood of the Code. The whole operation remains a classic case study of marketing a grenade to spoil the chances of a nuclear bomb. And only Vatican could have done it.

Kerala Angle to Operation Code
Kerala always had a special place in Vaticanâs scheme of things for South Asia. Almost all the âshepherdsâ spearheading evangelisation in various parts of the Indian sub-continent are Keralites. In Kerala itself, the stranglehold of Christianity on vital fields like education, health and industry is overwhelming. Hundreds of denominations of Christians are working overtime for reaching their harvesting targets by 2025 AD. Their original target was 2000 AD, but major institutions like Sabarimala, Attukal and Guruvayoor which are attracting devotees from outside the state stood in the way. Then there were the competing forces of Islam that was also targeting the same crowd with much more attractive Arabian carrots. Attempt by a combined might of Rahman, John and Peter in trapping the wayward Sabarimala tantri and thereby spoil the name of Sabarimala during the ensuing season is only symbolic of the deadly combination of ant-Hindu forces operating in Kerala. Actress Jayamala with her Christian husband also contributed to it in a significant way.

There were many Hindus who were overjoyed when DC Books published a translation of âDa Vinci Codeâ immediately after its release in India. One Gopikrishnan was also roped in the translation effort to give credence to the exercise. Again it missed the innocent vision of Kerala Hindus that the immediate release by DC Books was only a part of the larger game plan of deflecting attention from the much more devastating Gospel of Judas. Vatican had planned the full drama in minute details well ahead. DC and Jeevan vied with one another to keep the issue alive for almost a month so that the Gospel revelation could pass unnoticed. The strong majority of Christians in the media also did their part in ensuring that no major news items about the Gospel came up for attention in any of the newspapers or TV channels. As usual, the couple of dump Hindu channels missed the news completely. And those who noticed it remained âsecularâ to take it up.

Among our own saints in the immediate past, only Chattampi Swamigal could foresee the coming mechanisations of the Christian brotherhood in the landscape of Kerala. His literary attempt of âChristumathachetanamâ under a pseudo name during those days shows his desperate attempt to highlight the impending catastrophe to the Kerala Hindus. As usual we never bothered and never took it seriously. But we cannot afford to do that anymore. It is time to act before we reach a point of no-return. One of the best options in front of us is to give as much publicity as possible for the National Geographic exposeâ on âGospel of Judasâ. We should go in for a translation of the complete article (or an interpretation of it) in all the Indian languages and issue thousands of copies free of cost to all the vulnerable sections of the society. Nobody in his senses will opt for converting to a religion whose messiah has betrayed the trust of humanity for generations. The simple fact that Judas is holier than Jesus is enough to put off the aggressive evangelists from pursuing with their hidden agenda in India. Offence is indeed the best form of defence and it is time that Hindus started practising it.

http://www.burningcross.net/crusades/cru...india.html
http://www.burningcross.net

http://www.voxfux.com/features/vaticanmurder.htm
http://www.seechange.org/media/Broadside%2...09,%202001).htm
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/index.htm

**acharya** · 01-26-2008, 07:44 AM

Marxist Conspiracy against Hindus
09/04/2007 13:20:49
MARXIST CONSPIRACY AGAINST HINDUS
Dr. Babu Suseelan
Recently I was having a conversation with a Marxist academician from India who was on a speaking tour in the U.S. He was invited by a college under the management of a Christian fundamentalist group. During our conversation, he accused âHindutva Vadisâ of being âmean-spirited, hateful and, judgmental.â

The conversation was instructive that led me to ponder the question why atheist Marxists have an affinity for Islamic and Christian fundamentalists. Why they hate peace loving, tolerant and passive Hindus who believe in coexistence and universalism? Why have they established an unholy alliance with Islamic fascists and Christian fundamentalists in India?

Marxist hatred of religion is inherent in the philosophy of Marx. For Marx, âreligion does not reflect the productive process, and it diverts peopleâs attention from their miseries, which are consequences of exploitation. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless condition. It is the opium of the people.â

The passage clearly states Marxâs view that religion is the resulting conditions of the historical systems of exploitation. Marxâs theory of religion was an aspect of his general theory of society that prevailed in Europe in his era. For Marx, Christianity was the cause of human suffering in Europe. For him, Christianity appeared as an unmitigated evil, a superstition. He saw Christianity as the greatest obstacle to human progress. For the European communists, the Church had âextinguished the torch of progress in the blood of Christ.â

For European communists, hatred of religion proceeds from their belief that fundamentalist religions like Christianity has been a hindrance to progress and has resulted in much evil. In fact, Marx was even sceptical of Christianityâs ability to serve the interests of the working class. The reason for Marxâs hatred towards Christianity was the historical evidence that Church has always supported the maintenance of the legitimacy of the exploiter. Thus, to create a classless society, religion as a tie to the past must be eliminated. Marx suggested that Christianity, with its concepts of salvation, reflects the outlook of utterly despairing people, of slaves, who lost their battles with their masters.

Marxâs opposition to religion may reflect the social conditions prevailed in Europe. Marx was trying to solve the problem of duality of egoistic individualism and the religious society that exploited the poor masses. He advocated the need to emancipate the Christian world which opposed the proletariat.

In spite of number of problems with his ideology, Marxâs theory of society and of religion while in many ways controversial has nonetheless provided great insight into the oppressive nature of Christianity.

Indian Marxists have departed from Marx and made a grotesque alliance with Islamic fascists and Christian fundamentalists. Their goal is to comfort the comfortable Imams, Jihadi terrorists, Bishops and the Church and wage a relentless war against Hindutva that comfort the afflicted Indian masses. Indian Marxists make Hindus the eternal scapegoat. At the same time, they are pleased to tolerate Islamic poison and Christian hatred.

Marxist intellectuals are not interested in studying the all inclusive, universal philosophy of Hindutva. Rather than understanding Hindutva, the social fabric that keeps India together, they prefer to study social history of Europe and ignore the cruelties and immoralities of Christianity and forget butcheries committed by Islamic Jihadis. Dogmatic Islam and Christianity and their regressive, rigid and irrational belief system are dear to Indian Marxists. In India , Marxists have made an unholy coalition with Islamic fascists, Christian fundamentalists and anarchists against Hindutva. Indian Marxists never view Islam and Christianity as the creation of bourgeoisie and they are unaware that they serve the interests of bourgeoisie and are against the interests of the proletariat. They seldom study their historical exploitation, divisive nature and brutality.

Age old Hindu customs, temple practices, spiritual traditions, personal freedom have been revalued under Marxist perversion. They canât seem to fathom freedom, spirituality and culture in the same sense as Hindus. The frame of-mind of Marx was more in tune with the realities of the Christian fundamentalists. Indian Marxists stand in stark contrast and make partnership with Islamic Mullahs and the Church. When Indian Marxists speak of freedom today, they are acknowledging the defeat of freedom for Hindus and license for Jihadi terrorists. Hindus are defeated in almost every corner in the Marxist ruled West Bengal and Kerala. Under Marxist rule, Jihadis and evangelists obtain more liberty, and their anti-Hindu activities are protected.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-27-2008, 06:08 PM by Husky.)

Good grief. I don't sap IF bandwidth for a few days and return to find yet another christoislamicommunistic. (Would IF rules allow me to fleece money from every uninvited nut for each looney comment it makes? Come on IF, say yes, it's for charity: deserving me, I'd finally be as rich as Croesus then! :hopeful)

Anyway dude needs to take some coffee to snap out of his coma-induced hallucinations:
QUOTE(Amit_Rajpal @ Jan 24 2008, 11:02 PM)If one considers "Nazism" to be an valid object of hatred, is the RSS then to be considered a valid object of hatred?
[right][snapback]77518[/snapback][/right]Same old tale, I see, that they always pass for argument. Logic in the above equates to asking some random person the question: "why did you commit murder?" So, why did you commit murder, Amit-British-Raj's-Pal?

Anyways, no Hindu's statements disproving the christoislamicommunistic is going to be accepted by said christoislamicommunistic. The deluded person will demand only 'secular' proof (as in: christoislamicommuni proof). So, must try the only kind of antidote such persons will accept (they may still not accept it, of course, as they might be allergic to facts - so many of the Faithful are):

QUOTE(Sudhir @ Sep 12 2006, 04:36 AM)Indian Christian Priest: RSS neither Nationalist nor Fascist

Surojit Chatterjee
Dec. 19 2003
The Christian Post

The name of the research institution is Sorbonne University, Paris, France. The researcher is Dr. (Father) Vincent Kundukulam of St Joseph Pontifical Seminary, Aluva, Kerala. The thesis for the doctoral research is: Le RSS Et L\'Eglise En Inde (RSS and Church in India).[right][snapback]57219[/snapback][/right]
Continued at IF link

Meanwhile,
It's a fact that the nazis were devout christians from Germany to Croatia and Slovakia:
- http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm - photos of the faithfully christian nazis
- http://emperors-clothes.com/vatican/cpix.htm - photos of the vatican with their nazi helpers of Germany and Croatia
- http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/back/hakeem/holocaust3.html - "Holocaust: Its foundation in Christian anti-Semitism"

And then more reading:
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A7a.htm#NaziGermany
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A7b.htm - Yugoslavia
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A7c.htm
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A7d.htm

Of course, the followers of Islam were happy to get in on the nazi action too, when they were allowed to. The islamic nazi division of the Handzar/Handjar/Hanjar/whatever:
- http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/hanjar.html
- http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslav...ration.htm
- http://www.srpska-mreza.com/handzar/handzar.htm - islamis still proud of their nazi past!

No need to talk about the communists - they've been genociding people up and down, left and right in the world since communism started. "Revolution! Huzay!" (Or something...)

Of course, I don't know of what particular terrorist persuasion the British-Raj's Pal is (christonazi, islaminazi, communazi) - but then, in the end, all those terrorist ideologies are the same anyway. Tomato, tomato.

Said christoislamicommunazi:
QUOTE#232: how can we justify hatred for members of one particular religion?Who is "we"? Brit-Raj's Pal and his cohorts? So he and his fellows hate us? That's nothing new - it's the core tenet of christoislamicommunazism after all.

Meanwhile, I merely hate terrorist ideologies: christoislamicommunazism.
You know, the kind that do this to other people and their legitimate traditions. (<- Pictures are of christoterrorism's attacks on Buddhism)

ADDED:
And it even thinks it's an expert on Zoroastrianism:
QUOTE#240: Zorastrianism as mediated through Judaism, Islam and Christianity and the to their secular sequelae.It's a comedian after all!

01-28-2008, 09:35 PM

BJP sets aside 33% posts for womenQUOTE"This will be implemented in three months but the all powerful parliamentary board is exempted from the quota for women," senior leader Sushma Swaraj said.

Once implemented, the 81-member national executive of the party will have 27 women leaders in it compared to the present 13. The national women cell chief will now be a member of the central election committee while state presidents will be part of their respective state election committees
 <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/specool.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='specool.gif' />

01-29-2008, 12:19 AM

QUOTEBJP shows the way
The Pioneer Edit Desk
Women's quota a big leap forward
The BJP has taken a big leap forward by deciding to reserve 33 per cent posts for women in the party organisation -- from local committees to the National Council and National Executive. This radical shift towards gender equality and political empowerment of women is a first of its kind. While 'secular' and 'progressive' political parties, which tirelessly berate this Right-wing party for its nationalist politics, are vocal in paying lip service to women's empowerment, it is the BJP which has shown the way by taking firm steps in the right direction. Neither the Congress nor the CPI(M), whose leaders are in the forefront of clamorous though bogus demands for gender equity and empowerment, has gone beyond periodically seeking women's quota in Parliament. As for the 'natural' allies of the Congress and the Left -- ranging from Mr Lalu Prasad Yadav's RJD to Mr Mulayam Singh Yadav's Samajwadi Party, not to mention Mr Chandrababu Naidu's TDP -- they are primarily dedicated to the empowerment of the families of those who lead them; with their family-specific agenda, these parties cannot be expected to further the cause of women's empowerment. In sharp comparison to the whole lot, Marxists included, the BJP has demonstrated that it is a forward-looking political organisation which is alert to the changing aspirations of the masses. What is equally remarkable is the elaborate and democratic process through which the party has evolved its policy of mandatorily including women in the organisational hierarchy. The idea was floated by party president Rajnath Singh last year and a committee, headed by Ms Sushma Swaraj, was set up to look into its implementation. The committee, after wide-ranging discussions, submitted its report to the BJP National Executive when it met in December 2007, where it was unanimously accepted. To ensure compliance with the new policy, the party has now amended its constitution and the amendments have been ratified by the National Council. Inner-party democracy, we must remember, reflects a party's commitment to democracy in our country. By this measure, the BJP stands head and shoulders above its adversaries.

Carping critics will be prompt in pointing out that setting aside 33 per cent posts for women in the party organisation is not quite the same as reserving seats for women in Parliament. True, but pending the introduction of women's quota in Parliament, this is the best thing that could have happened. Indeed, by pro-actively involving women in the party organisation, the BJP will be ensuring their empowerment at the grassroots, which, in a sense, will politically empower a much larger number of women. Nor should we ignore the fact that the BJP, unlike many of its adversaries, has been steadfast in demanding quota for women in legislatures; former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee introduced a private member's Bill seeking 33 per cent parliamentary reservation for women as early as in 1996, fetching instant howls of protest. The NDA regime would have enacted this law if the then Opposition, primarily the Congress, which now occupies the Treasury Benches, had supported the Government. Hopefully, others will now emulate the BJP and introduce a similar quota for women in their respective organisations, instead of picking holes in the BJP's policy.

**acharya** · (This post was last modified: 02-01-2008, 02:03 AM by acharya.)

QUOTEShibaPJ wrote:

sanjaychoudhry wrote:
ShibaPJ wrote:
Last post on this OT. Comparing Indian response to terrorism to that of Israel/ US is laughable. Both countries put a premium on their countrymen's lives, and have pursued the terrorist lowlifes much beyond their own country. Comparing that to successive GoIs, who have clear-cut evidence of subversion/ terrorism/ what not against India and all they do is to whine to the so-called international community..

What actually are you suggesting ABV should have done to tackle the problem in the time available? I agree that not disabling the aircraft at Amritsar was a criminal lack of competence. But once the flight went out of Indian airspace, what were the options?

Agree on the lack of options after plane landed in Kandahar. But did we go after the lowlifes after the drama got over? While INC is responsible for many screwups pre and post-NDA, we should not overlook the fact that NDA regime saw some of the most heinous acts against India (Kandahar, parliament, Kargil, Kaluchak etc). and every time, except for whining, we did jack sh!t. Ironically, the last GoI to work with an iron fist (or pair of b@lls) was IG in 1971. JMTs, while we in BRF don't miss a bit to string MMS from the lamp-post, I get a feeling that people are more than liberal to absolve ABV/ NDA of any wrong-doing. BRF has always been ahead of the curve in analyzing geo-political theme and crystal-gazing; and BRFites should keep it that way w/o bringing personal prejudices into picture.


What must not be forgotten is that the BJP were in power for the first proper length of time in reality. The Congress has decades of experience in dealing with the Indian power structure. In the case of the BJP, they learnt on the job and the presence of old timers like ABV, LKA, Brajesh et al must have been invaluable.

Coming to Kandahar, I dont think it was a BJP mistake as much as a structural one. Whether it had been BJP or UPA in power, the result would have been the same- simply put, no proper hostage rescue set up, no resources for the QRT (who can forget the farcical NSG is stuck in traffic business) and confusion at all levels of the security establishment who are supposed to react fast and save the situation till the higher ups get involved.

For Kaluchak- we did our level best to pay the Pakis back- by fire assaults day in and night out. Word was that GF had told the IA- fire as much you want, we'll see to the rest. I remember one Pak paper, close to the Paki power structure, writing epithets against GF and ABV the day after we took out a Pak brigade HQ.

Parliament attack was again a testament to Indian establishments structural weakness- we simply didnt have any proper reaction mechanism to non state/deniable acts, bar conventional war. And by precipitating a confrontation, we demonstrated that we were yet to think the whole thing through. And it was Parakram which led the IA to Cold Start. Till then, we had been stagnating in "dash to the Indus" mode with all attendant issues of logistics build up and nuke conflict.

If there is one thing that can be blamed on the BJP in part (not excusing the Pakis)- due to both its inexperience and naivete- doing something which the Congress would have done, its their "oops" at Kargil.
There are ample records to suggest that some of the brass in the IA and RAW were on "go slow" mode because of instructions from on high, and the Pakis (being Pakis) took full advantage of the fact, egged on by a Nawaz who now plays innocent.

The other incident which showed the relative naivete of the BJP was Godhra and its aftermath. Heres a horrific incident which shows that the so called canard of IMs being victims is untrue, and jihad has come home to roost in India. But they messed up on the security aspect, the riots spiralled out of control, and now the Gujarat riots are an albatross around the BJPs neck, and have become the replacement for Babri Masjid in attacking them. Just imagine, if Modi & the Central leadership had been more on the ball, had prevented riots AND taken stern action against the perpetrators- they would have done what a Congress regime has never done, respond decisively and with a locus standi to have done so. They were not sophisticated or mature enough to understand the bigger picture and they paid the price.

All in all, I would rate them a 7 out of a 10 (charitably speaking) or even one point lower. However, even so, for relative newcomers to governance, they did some remarkable things:

- Established India as an overt nuclear state and didnt cave under both external and internal pressure
- Restarted Indias defence modernisation and with several epochal programs
- Kept up the economic reforms
- Proved that "hindu nationalists" were perfectly capable of running a Govt, keeping the economy running (and growing) and able to manage a fractious alliance
- Able to negotiate with a superpower without giving up any core interests

Most importantly, they didnt do the kind of shameless caste and minority appeasement that defines the Congress, and which is what makes that party so disreputable. Otherwise, it could regain ground.

Shambhu · 02-02-2008, 04:19 AM

Thackeray to lead Sena-BJP campaign in Maharashtra: Munde

Aurangabad, Maharashtra, Feb 1: BJP national general secretary Gopinath Munde has said that Shiv Sena chief Bal Thackeray is the leader of the Sena-BJP alliance in the state and would lead the campaign in the nex elections.

Speaking to reporters here last evening, Mr Munde said former BJP President L K Advani and Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi will also campaign for the Sena-BJP candidates in the Lok Sabha and assembly elections in Maharashtra.

Mr Munde was here to address a meeting organised by the State Maratha Karmchari Mahasangh.

Mr Munde, meanwhile, demanded that the Centre should order an inquiry into the role of Union Agriculture Minister Sharad Pawar in diverting the funds meant for sugarcane farmers, as mentioned in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG).

http://www.newkerala.com/one.php?action=...s&id=19152

Shambhu · 02-02-2008, 09:08 AM

Good read. On "Brand Advani"...

http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008.../#comment-17310

**acharya** · 02-03-2008, 01:28 AM

BJP ups the ante

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There can be no denying the BJP has wrested the psychological advantage about four years after the 2004 General Election debacle. The swagger is back and this time with a four letter word to reinforce it if this report by the TOI is anything to go by:

Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi virtually set the agenda at the BJP national council on Monday, mounting a frontal attack on the Manmohan Singh government over âcommunalâ budgeting in development programmes and a âlack of seriousnessâ in tackling threats to national security. The saffron strongman confirmed his standing with the BJP rank and file as some 4,000-odd delegates listened to Modi outline a sharp political critique of the UPA.

As he rolled out a chargesheet against the UPA, Modi peppered his speech with ringing praise for Leader of Opposition L K Advani whose projection as prime ministerial nominee he repeatedly endorsed.

While praising the BJP for getting into election mode instantly Swapan Dasgupta writing in The Pioneer on sunday also lamented on the need for defining brand Advani.

The BJP cannot proceed on the assumption that Advani is a pre-sold commodity or a known brand. Brand Advani 1990 is not Brand Advani 2008. The country knew what he represented 18 years ago. It needs to be told where he stands today.

It is understandable why Mr. Dasgupta would want Brand Advani to be defined for after all the mainstream media, particularly the english media and 24Ã7 news channels , have a track record of negative branding of the BJP and its leaders.These channels also have a history of attempting to prop up brand Sonia and brand Rahul while preserving brand Manmohanâs teflon skinned conscience.

While Mr. Dasgupta may be right in this assessment that the country at large may not know what Brand Advani means, he is perhaps overstating the significance of a national brand. The Modi victory in Gujarat has shattered many myths about the mediaâs power to make and unmake brands and the mediaâs ability to influence electoral outcomes. In fact more than a branding of Modi in the media it was the framing of the public debate around the no-nonsense persona of Modi and his âI mean businessâ record that made the difference in Gujarat.

So should the BJP frame its campaign around Mr. Advaniâs persona in the run up to the next general election ?

While we have seen how fruitless a national brand like Sonia has been in delivering electoral dividends to the Congress we have also seen the limitations of a hyping up the promise of brand Rahul without a record to show.

Both of these media machinations are good reasons for the BJP to not go overboard in attempting to building new equity of brand Advani.

Offstumped Bottomline: The outcome of the next general election will invariably be determined by the sum of all local incumbencies and mutinies especially given how distant and far removed the Union Government and Parliamentarians are from directly impacting day to day issues of delivery of public services. While the BJP was succesful in peppering over incumbencies and mutinies in Gujarat this nation has not voted on an overriding national issue in over two decades in a general election. Not even the most horrific of terrorist attacks like the 7-11 train blasts in Mumbai have been effective at either triggering a national backlash or sustaining one beyond the first 48 hours of the incident. There is no escaping the calculus of incumbency for the BJP in a general election.

**acharya** · 02-03-2008, 08:30 AM

Survey predicts edge to BJP in Karnataka Assembly polls

Bangalore (PTI): There is a widespread "sympathy" for BJP, whose first government in Karnataka lasted barely a week, and the sentiment of "why not give the saffron party a chance is very pronounced", according to a pre-poll survey.

"The present political climate is clearly favourable to BJP. The situation is likely to change depending on the strategy to be adopted by Congress projecting a more charismatic leader as its chief ministerial candidate," said a survey conducted by People Studies, Loyola College, Chennai and St Joseph's college of Arts and Sciences, Bangalore.

The study conducted between January 11 to 20 in 24 districts covered interviews with 2580 persons -- around 40 per cent urban population and 60 per cent rural -- St Joseph's College principal Ambrose Pinto said, while releasing the findings at a press conference here.

In the backdrop of political instability haunting the state after the 2004 polls which threw up a three-way fractured verdict, most of the respondents hoped that a single party wins a majority in the ensuing elections and forms a government on its own, it said.

While 62 per cent of the respondents said it will be a single party government with own majority, 25 per cent are expecting a coalition and 13 per cent had the view single party will rule with outside support from other parties.

The study also shows that 67.1 per cent of the respondents expected BJP to come to power, while 24.1 per cent backed Congress and 8.8 per cent favoured a JD(S) government.

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