The Real Indian IQ

G.Subramaniam · 06-09-2008, 06:15 PM

First of all you are not reading what I write


I am saying this is a first order approximation

South India, - TN, Kerala, Andhra, Orissa , karnataka, and goa were rarely under muslim rule

Whereas UP, bihar, bengal were centers of the sultanate

Per Andre Wink, the muslims killed 200,000 hindus each year for 500 years

The mughals, even Aurangzeb were quite humane compared to the sultanate

One of the results of the muslim massacres were that the smarter fraction of the north Indian hindus, saw what was happening and fled south
which again tilts the iq to the south

In addition, the muslim pattern was to massacre community leaders to terrorise the rest to convert and this meant that the higher iq community leaders got massacred

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 06-09-2008, 07:54 PM by Bodhi.)

QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Jun 9 2008, 06:15 PM)South India, - TN, Kerala, Andhra, Orissa , karnataka, and goa were rarely under muslim rule
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As far as Orissa is concerned, that was one horrifying field of massacres by delhi sultans (to whom Orissa offered very stiff resistance.) Read the accounts of Firoz Shah Tughlaq and others after him. Orissa hindus even repeatedly gave tough time to the muslim state of bengal in their North and as a result valiantly suffered many losses over time. BTW, you include Orissa also in south? Maybe you mean peninsular India? If so please add Maharashtra, Saurashtra etc too, and that will make that complete.

Andhra, Karnataka were rarely under muslim rule?

Goa - centuries of christian massacres (and slave making) that will make any gAzI run for his money. that has been discounted?

QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Jun 9 2008, 06:15 PM)the smarter fraction of the north Indian hindus, saw what was happening and fled south which again tilts the iq to the south
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Interesting. Please cite a few instances of Smart North Indian Hindus who fled to south (en masse?) Let me give you a start - bhUShaNa the biographer of Shivaji and poet. A few known courtiers of Vijaya Nagaram. But after that I am not aware of any mass migrations that can tilt the general IQ of a region! Will learn.

QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Jun 9 2008, 06:15 PM)
I am saying this is a first order approximation
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that puts all questions to rest. please carry on, sorry for interruption.

**Hauma Hamiddha** · 06-09-2008, 11:42 PM

Interesting estimates by GS. They are believable as approximations, but I am not certain how much uncertainty is there in them. In particular genetic studies are not showing much differentiation amongst forward castes between north and south India. I am also not certain if the Islamic massacre specifically removed the high-end of the IQ. In places like Bihar the Maithili Brahmins have high IQ comparable with the top brahminical groups from the rest of the country. Perhaps in the Bhumihars the situation might be different.

Ashkenazi Jews were targeted by Germans and perhaps Russians too in specific massacres. These massacres might be model for the Hind Kush by the Moslems. If yes the IQ depression you suggest might not be seen. Alternatively Moslem rule in North India destroyed the Hindu intellectual tradition and did not keep up the selection pressure for the high end of the intelligence spectrum.

ramana · 06-10-2008, 12:47 AM

Need to look at the macro effect that GS is talking about. One can quibble about the numbers and methods but the macro level it is stunning. Will ask my son to take a look at the methods and give his take.

G.Subramaniam · 06-10-2008, 06:26 AM

QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ Jun 9 2008, 11:42 PM)Interesting estimates by GS. They are believable as approximations, but I am not certain how much uncertainty is there in them. In particular genetic studies are not showing much differentiation amongst forward castes between north and south India. I am also not certain if the Islamic massacre specifically removed the high-end of the IQ. In places like Bihar the Maithili Brahmins have high IQ comparable with the top brahminical groups from the rest of the country. Perhaps in the Bhumihars the situation might be different.

Ashkenazi Jews were targeted by Germans and perhaps Russians too in specific massacres. These massacres might be model for the Hind Kush by the Moslems. If yes the IQ depression you suggest might not be seen. Alternatively Moslem rule in North India destroyed the Hindu intellectual tradition and did not keep up the selection pressure for the high end of the intelligence spectrum.
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Consider
1. The entire belt from Afghanistan to Morocco has an avg IQ of 84
I am assuming that there is a 10 point deficit due to islam which makes the non-islamic IQ of these regions as 94 and explains the lengthy pre-islamic civilisations

2. The islamic rule in north india lasted 500 years, same as the conquistador rule in latin america. Today the amerind IQ is 87. Assuming a 5 point loss due to genocide and the original amerind IQ is 92 which would explain the aztec, maya and inca civilizations.

3. In latin america, the whites killed off the priesthood and elite and had a dumb residual population that could be converted and exploited
Assume a 5 point loss here - same would apply in north India 5 point loss due to 500 years of islamic massacres

4. The muslims destroyed 30000 temples in north india and they have also documented large scale massacres of brahmins. My hunch is this,
whenever the muslims conquered a town, they massacred the more prominent citizens to terrorise the rest of the populace into converting or paying jaziya

G.Subramaniam · 06-10-2008, 06:29 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandraseni...tha_Prabhu

The origins of the CKP community lie in Indus Valley from Kashmir to Sindh-Thatta on Arabian sea coast but the downfall of various kingdoms which were ruled by by the community's families or where they were settled in (7th-8th Century A.D.)[citation needed] accounts for their present location. The last known migration was in 1305 A.D. wherein 42 families finally arrived in Maharashtra.

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This caste has an oral history of migrating south to escape the muslims

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The saurashtra caste in tamil nadu also has an oral history of migrating south to escape the muslims

G.Subramaniam · 06-10-2008, 06:30 AM

QUOTE(ramana @ Jun 10 2008, 12:47 AM)Need to look at the macro effect that GS is talking about. One can quibble about the numbers and methods but the macro level it is stunning. Will ask my son to take a look at the methods and give his take.
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I am well aware that this is a first order approximation

G.Subramaniam · 06-10-2008, 06:53 AM

Can someone please alert Rajeev Srinivasan to this thread

G.Subramaniam · 06-10-2008, 05:35 PM

in my model
I place all traditionally literate castes as upper castes
and all non-traditionally literate castes as backward castes
No matter what their ritual status

Hence a Jat maharajah will be classified as backward caste
and a bihari bania and a nair and a tamil chettiar,
will be classified as forward caste

In my model, I assume that something similar to the Ashkenazi IQ effect, but for a much longer time , has happened in India

And therefore I am classifying by traditional literate castes vs the rest

G.Subramaniam · 06-10-2008, 05:36 PM

Per Indian surveys,
the Indian population consists of

Brahmin = 5% (Historically fluent both in sansksrit and local language )
Historically Advanced Literate
( upper castes ) = 15% ( primarily local language, secondarily in sanskrit )
Historically Basic Literate
( backward caste ) = 40% ( only local language )
Muslim = 15%
Historically illiterate ( Dalits, Tribals ) = 25%

G.Subramaniam · 06-10-2008, 05:38 PM

The IQ tests used are mostly ravens matrices and dont catch weakness in verbal iq

In most cases such as SAT,
IQ is measured by average of math and verbal scores

In singapore, Indians score midway between chinese and malays in math

however in english they beat both chinese and malays

weakness of east asians in verbal iQ

http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/sft2.htm

Estranea. What do you mean by "verbal shortcomings." Is it that NE Asians perform less well than Europeans on verbal subtests or that they simply are not given to Strocchian pleonasm?

Prodigy. The former, but there is other evidence of their verbal deficiency. Take the bar exam for example. In 1989, the Law School Admission Council commissioned a study of bar passage rates. Its report, The LSAC National Longitudinal Bar Passage Study was published in 1998, with results disaggregated by race and ethnicity. Linda F. Wightman, the project head, collected data from more than 27,000 students who entered ABA approved law schools in fall 1991. The study found that only 80.75% of Asians passed the bar on the first try compared with 91.93% of non-Hispanic whites. This corresponds to a white-Asian mean-score difference of 0.53 standard deviation or in IQ terms a verbal gap of 8 points!

--

Of these, 12 reported both general and verbal IQ averages for NE Asians. Three of the 12 indicated a white-NE Asian verbal IQ gap of about 8 points in agreement with the bar exam result, but these are at the high end. The average verbal gap was a bit less than 4 points or about a quarter standard deviation.

~~Pandyan~~ · 06-10-2008, 06:04 PM

Gsub, would like to see an estimate of non-Brahmin castes of TN & AP and your reasoning.

G.Subramaniam · (This post was last modified: 06-11-2008, 05:42 AM by G.Subramaniam.)

QUOTE(Pandyan @ Jun 10 2008, 06:04 PM)Gsub, would like to see an estimate of non-Brahmin castes of TN & AP and your reasoning.
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There is a post by me on page 4 of this thread called step by step which shows my reasoning and calculations

Under the simplified category, southern merchant, I have included all historically literate castes in south india
such as Velala, Pillai, Mudaliar, Chettiar, Nair, Potti, Kerala syrian xtian, Ambalavasi, warrier, Menon, Shetty, Bunt, Lingayat, Naidu, kamma, Reddy, Chetty, Raju, etc

For these castes I am estimating IQ = 115 in 60 years when the economy improves
I am also assuming that currently they suffer a Flynn effect of 5

Flynn effect is the drop in IQ due to bad socio-economic conditions
For Africans it is 10

So currently these castes are 115 - 5 = 110

The remaining non-dalit castes in south India, I classify as
Southern Peasant with IQ = 100
and Flynn of 7 and so these castes are presently 93 IQ

The current depressed state of IQ in india is due to colonial looting and islamic massacres for several hundred years

~~Pandyan~~ · 06-11-2008, 03:39 PM

An estimate of 115 is a bit too high don't you think?

Hong Kong is supposed to have the highest IQ right now at 107.

G.Subramaniam · (This post was last modified: 06-11-2008, 07:26 PM by G.Subramaniam.)

QUOTE(Pandyan @ Jun 11 2008, 03:39 PM)An estimate of 115 is a bit too high don't you think?

Hong Kong is supposed to have the highest IQ right now at 107.
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Actually not
In my post 'step by step' in page 4

Singapore has the highest chinese IQ at 108
The malays in singapore have an IQ of 92

In math, Indian diaspora scores midway between chinese and malays
and in english, indian diaspora beats chinese and malays

and by interpolation the indian diaspora in singapore has iQ of 104

This diaspora , as a first order approximation consists
50% of chettiars and nairs, and 25% of tamil backward castes and 25% of
tamil dalits

and by algebra ( in my post 'step by step')
I am calculating that the chettiars and nairs have 115 IQ

Lee kuan yew runs a meritocratic regime and at the very top levels,
Indians are over-represented, meaning the chettiars and nairs have higher iq than the singapore chinese of 108 IQ

The Ashkenazi jews have a 115 IQ, and the indian diaspora in US is beating them

As I said again, the miserable socio-economic situation in india is causing us to under-estimate Indian IQ
Go back 500 years to vijayanagar and this would not seem unreasonable

G.Subramaniam · (This post was last modified: 06-11-2008, 07:35 PM by G.Subramaniam.)

The problem with IQ tests

A correct IQ test should measure the average of verbal and math skills such as SAT, GRE etc

However, when IQ test people go to different countries, most of whom dont speak english, they have to give a language neutral test

This test is called Ravens matrices, which uses a series of pictograms
( similar to chinese heiroglyphics, which gives the chinese an advantage )

This is well and good, however, since this test fails to measure any verbal skills, it fails to measure verbal weakness as in the case of the chinese or verbal strengths as in the case of Indians ( most of whom are bi-lingual or tri-lingual )

La griffe du lion, based on east asian Under-performance in the law bar exams, calculates that in verbal skills, east asians lag whites by 4 to 8 IQ,
whereas in Ravens Matrices, they outperform whites by 5 IQ

In the SAT tests in the US, Indians match jews and far outperform the east asians

Bharatvarsh · 06-13-2008, 08:15 PM

QUOTEInteresting. Please cite a few instances of Smart North Indian Hindus who fled to south (en masse?) Let me give you a start - bhUShaNa the biographer of Shivaji and poet. A few known courtiers of Vijaya Nagaram. But after that I am not aware of any mass migrations that can tilt the general IQ of a region! Will learn.
Bodhi I read somwhere that many Saraswath Brahmins in the Konkan were actually from Kashmir who fled to Panjab and further south to escape Muslim persecution.

Also there is a theory that the Chitpavan Brahmins migrated enmasse to Maharashtra when Gandhara (now Afghanistan) fell to Muslims.

Also, there is community of Saurashtrians in TN, they were proclaimed Brahmanas a few centuries ago, but they speak a distinct language at home and migrated enmasse Southward ending up in TN, i am not sure why they migrated.

Here is some info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saurashtra_language

As for classification, I don't think Orissa would fall under South, more likely East, but in traditional Hindu classification I think Maharashtra is considered part of South and I think southern Gujarat also (because Pancha Dravida includes Brahmins from both these states).

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 06-13-2008, 09:35 PM by Bodhi.)

Thanks BhV. As far as Saraswat are concerned, they were originally (still are) found throughout the North-west region, and did flee from their dwellings when Moslem took over in west. However important to note is that they fled not just in one direction that is South, but in all directions including east-wards, himalaya-wards and so on. This includes a small branch of my own ancestor-ancestors who first fled eastwards to bengal, and when bengal meekly gave in, in a few centuries, they fled to the Nepal, and when came a brief period when islamist bengal invaded nepal too, they fled and finally settled where they are mostly found these days - in north-west bihar and north-eastern UP - around the time when there was a relative peace during sher shah suri - hemchandra period. Proper Saraswats of other branches are found in huge numbers throughout Haryana, West UP, and so on too. Much larger in population than in Konkana. Other streams of Saraswats likewise fled in many other directions too and are today found in large numbers totally outside of South.

(Above is what I have heard from those who know better in my village, have never done any research, but that seems credible to me)

Such migrations have been happening, for too many reasons to enumerate here, even before Islam was even born.

Examples we are looking for here are - "exodus" from Proper North India (Raj, UP, MP, Punjab, Kashmir, Bihar) to South by high caste population, which is alleged to now have a low IQ when comapred with that of their low caste bretheren in south. And Exodus on such scale, which can be remembered today, and was so big that IQ tilt happened, as suggested.

Coming to two examples that were cited earlier - that of one set of kayasthas in MH and saurashtrans in TN. As per the link you provided their total population even today is in a few thousands, after these many centuries. Imagine what would have been their original population. Smaller than the smallest fraction you can count as %age population of south or even TN. Same holds good for kayasthas. Also do compare how much population fled and how much stayed back. was the one that fled, a significant portion of total - so as to tilt the IQ regionally?

If we dont have such exaples, why did Northerners not flee away to south in bulk? Because my feeling is that except for TN, rest of the south was also facing the similar problems as North - more or less. 700/500 year Total Muslim Control on North India is a plain myth. There were enough safe places within North too, to have north-north migrations.

Now, having said this, I totally agree to HH that North lost its intellectual edge, which south still preserved. North became illiterate in sense of their heriditary transmission of knowledge. Intellect is different from Intelligence.

Shambhu · 06-13-2008, 11:06 PM

Not to add to or subtract from either side of the argument, but just since it came up:

I am one of those Kashmiri Saraswat Bramhans whose ancestors settled in the Konkan! <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' />

ramana · 06-14-2008, 01:22 AM

QUOTE(Shambhu @ Jun 13 2008, 05:36 PM)Not to add to or subtract from either side of the argument, but just since it came up:

I am one of those Kashmiri Saraswat Bramhans whose ancestors settled in the Konkan! <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/guitar.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='guitar.gif' />
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