Sanskrit - 2

[Guest]

Dhanyavadam Ashok Kumar and Bodhi.

Ashok Kumar: Yes, I am aware about the different Karakas. I have deliberately separated the -han and -ghan members of the Samâsa. I believe that -h- may not be an original Vaidika Vyanjana, if it alternates with a Sa-Ghosha variant. As in this case, the Dhâtu han- betrays the -gh- in its many verbal forms: jighnate, ghnîta, aghnanta, jaghnat, ghnamâna, jaghâna jaghnuh, jaghne, jaghnire, jaghanat, jaghnivah, jaghanvah, etc. The true Vaidika Dhâtu may be ghan- > han-.

Bodhi: Currently, I am much interested in medieval history. Especially about Delhi and Agra, and Islamic terror and destruction of people and residences.

[Bharatvarsh]

Help with another name:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Arjuna first broke the bow of Vikarna. Vikarna fled away. Then Arjuna killed Shatruntapa. With the killing of Shatruntapa, other Kouravas fled away.

http://www.telugubhakti.com/TELUGUPAGES/Mo.../content405.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What does Shatruntapa mean?

Shatru = enemy, also whats the proper transliteration of this name in the Roman script?

Thanks for the help.

[Guest]

shatruntapa = shatrum + tapa

tapa means "heat" or in this case "pain".

shatruntapa = one who gives pain to the enemy

The transliteration using ITRANS scheme is "shatruntapa".

It is one of those cases where the kAraka is not dropped when making a samAsa. Here the word shatru is in dvitIyA vibhakti (karma kAraka) singular number, as "shatrum". In making conjuncts or samAsa of two words, the kAraka vibhakti of the first word is normally dropped, so "shatrum" should become just "shatru" after samAsa, i.e. the samAsita word should have been "sahtrutapa". But in this case the vibhakti is kept by exception. And following rules of sandhi, "m" of the vibhakti becomes "n".

similar to:
parantapa = param + tapa (used in GitA by sri krishna)

P.S. Recall that in sanskrit there are two ways of joining words:

1. sandhi - a euphonic conjunction between a preceding word and a following word.

e.g. prati + eka = pratyeka

2. samAasa - taking two words and joining them together by dropping the vibhakti from the first word (plus some other rules). Joining of words after dropping of vibhaktis must still follow rules of sandhi.

e.g. "rAmasya + ayanam" ->(drop vibhakti)-> "rAma + ayanam" ->(do sandhi)-> "rAmAyaNam"

In the above, after dropping the vibhakti "sya", the sandhi changes a+a to "A" and "n" to "N" due to presence of "r".

[Bharatvarsh]

Ashok Kumar thanks, I just have one doubt, I know tapa means heat but doesn't tApa also mean the same?

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=...D=&direction=AU

If both have same meaning, could tApa be used in the name instead of tapa?

I am just curious because Telugu has words derived from both, tapana is used sometimes, tApam at other times.

[Shambhu]

I have a question for the learned people here:

a. I am from Mumbai, and all Marathis pronounce the last name "Joshi" (As in Pallavi Joshi, Murlimanohar Joshi) with a J which comes close to the z in zamaana (I am using the urdu term because there seems a singular lack of the z of Joshi in Hindi). Note that we do not say Zhoshi. There is absolutely no H.

b. All Hindi-speakers pronounce Joshi as an extension of josh, the hindi word for energy/enthusiasm. The J is a full J, as in Jam, Jelly, Jugnu..

So my question is: who is right? What are the sanskrit roots of the word Joshi? Are there any? Or is it a local epithet? ??

Thanks!

[Husky]

You asked the knowledgeable people.

But meanwhile:
From what I came across, there is traditionally no 'z' sound in Bharatiya languages. It trickled in from Urdu. The Persians had long had a 'z' though, perhaps it had exercised some influence in the very NW in earlier times? But Samskritam does not have a 'z'. Similarly, Bharatiya languages don't have an 'f' either.

Something I found interesting was that the Nepalese family I knew pronounced the English word 'zero' as 'gero' every single time.

[Shambhu]

Husky,

That helps..must be an urdu thing! There is no equivalent "za" letter in Hindi/Sanskrit as is in Marathi..

[Bodhi]

in marathi it is not an urdu thing. the most natural one also has a lot of it (although plenty of farsi has also creeped in marathi over time). I guess it has to do with derivation from prAkR^ita-s but let us wait for HH and Ashok to comment.

[Bharatvarsh]

In Telugu there is no "z" but z sound comes in when people pronounce certain words that are not derived from farsi, two examples are boozu (cobwebs) and gaazu (glass), some say it like that while others say booju and gaaju, in writing its written as the latter way.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Jul 10 2008, 07:08 AM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Jul 10 2008, 07:08 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ashok Kumar thanks, I just have one doubt, I know tapa means heat but doesn't tApa also mean the same?

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=...D=&direction=AU

If both have same meaning, could tApa be used in the name instead of tapa?

I am just curious because Telugu has words derived from both, tapana is used sometimes, tApam at other times.
[right][snapback]84033[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Usual meaning of "tapa" is "heat causing". Usually a heat causing act. It also can meant heat, since heat causes heating.

The word 'tApa" just means heat. It is derived using same root "tap" but a different suffix called "gha~na". Example: from the root "ram" and applying the gha~na suffix you get "rAma".

So, normally if you want to mean "heat causing" use "tapa", but if you mean "heat", use tApa.

"tapana" means "one who causes heating", most commonly used for Sun. Funnily enough, even this can be used to mean heat, since heat causes heating.

[Hauma Hamiddha]

The development of the z sound in Marathi is an endogenous one. I am not sure when it began but we can still argue that it is endogenous for the following reason:
Firstly we known that joShI comes from the saMskR^ita jyotiShI meaning astrologer. So the primitive sound was joSh. The evidence for this seen in mahArAShTri prakR^it the ancestor of Marathi which has transmitted to word to Tamil where it is pronounced as joShiyar. In Marathi we know that the cha sound is also similar transformed in the same fashion as ja. i.e. something in between cha and sa. The latter is missing in Urdu/Persian. So the same internal change has influenced both this sounds.

[Hauma Hamiddha]

<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Jul 10 2008, 03:43 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Jul 10 2008, 03:43 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Similarly, Bharatiya languages don't have an 'f' either.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

While the saMskR^ita form is the aspirate of pa that is pha, in many Neo-Indo-Aryan languages and probably beginning with MIA we encounter pha->fa.

Even in R^igvedic recitation we see pha inwords like
sphig, sphAna etc being rendered as fa in some parts of India.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Jul 10 2008, 09:54 PM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Jul 10 2008, 09:54 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->In Telugu there is no "z" but z sound comes in when people pronounce certain words that are not derived from farsi, two examples are boozu (cobwebs) and gaazu (glass), some say it like that while others say booju and gaaju, in writing its written as the latter way.
[right][snapback]84062[/snapback][/right]
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BV, take a look at the character 0C59 on this link: Telugu in UNICODE. I believe, that is how z is pronounced in Telugu.

[Bharatvarsh]

Vishwas thanks for the info, never knew this, wonder if this is connected to Marathi za.

I always thought that there is something wrong with the way we are pronouncing it because Telugu doesn't have za and only one or two words I listed are pronounced with that sound. One more thing that convinced of the wrong idea was the fact that as far as I remember we never learned about the two "Historic Phonetic Variants" while learning Telugu.

[Hauma Hamiddha]

BV/Vishvas do you know if these sounds apply to loans -- is that word from English glass.

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->BV/Vishvas do you know if these sounds apply to loans -- is that word from English glass. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HH, depends, many Tenglish types say "jeero" for "zero" (Telugu word is sunna from skt shunya), others use "zero", so it varies.

A well entrenched word in Telugu that begins with z is "zamindar" but almost everyone says "Jamindaru". By contrast a lot of people say "bazaaru" instead of "bajaaru", so it seems to vary based on the word and people.

In writing nowadays, I have never seen the "Historic Phonetic ..." letters used at all, "ja" is used for "za" in writing like other Indian languages, those two letters "tsa" and "dza" must have gone out of use in writing sometime ago but the sounds persist to this day in some words.

Here is some discussion regarding them:

http://groups.google.com/group/telugu-unic...a0d52932444dca9

If u mean the word "gaazu", no i don't think its from English, here is what the dictionary says:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->gazu (p. 0362) [ gāzu ] gazu. [Tel.] n. Glass; any vitrified substance such as chinaware or a bracelet, which is made of glass black as jet. Hence, blackness. A bracelet. bangaru gajulu bracelets made of gold. Various kinds of bracelets are called gollagajulu, idigegajulu, meligajulu, turakagajulu, and lakkapattegajulu. gajulu the wards of a lock. gazukapperalu gazu-kapperalu. [Tel.] n. A certain sort of grain. H. iv. 156. gazunilamu gazu-nilamu. n. An artificial sapphire. Also, deep blue or black. NH. v. 46. gazuroyya gazu-royya. n. A crayfish or large prawn. gazuparu gazu-paru. v. n. To blacken or turn blck kantihinamagu. gazuppu gaz-uppu. n. Dross of a glasswork, scori&ae;. gazurayi gazu-rayi. n. A glassy stone. Jet. gazulavandlu gazula-vandlu. n. A certain caste who deal in glass bracelets.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/romadict....ple&table=brown<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Hauma Hamiddha]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Jul 13 2008, 12:23 PM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Jul 13 2008, 12:23 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> gollagajulu, idigegajulu, meligajulu, turakagajulu, and lakkapattegajulu. gajulu the
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Thanks. turaka-gajulu? At least that one seems to be a Moslem import (not the word but the substance).

[Guest]

I apologize. I must withdraw my last post. It appears that the letter I posted about (0C59 in Telugu UNICODE) is not pronounced as "z" in "zamin(ground)", but somewhat like j, the way people in the US pronounce the word pizza as "peatza", with the t under-emphasized.
In fact, BV, gaju (glass) in Telugu is pronounced like pizza, not like zamin.

[Shambhu]

<!--emo&:cool--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/specool.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='specool.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Thanks a lot for the clarifications..so our J or joshi is endogeneous.. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->


Anyway, since this is the Samskrit thread, let me humbly present the latest verse I memorized:

Shaantaakaaram bhujangashayanam padmanaabham sureskam
vishwaadhaaram gaganasadrishyam meghavarnam shubhaangam
Lakshmikaantam kamalanayanam yogibhir dhaanagamyam
vande Vishnum bhavabhayaharam sarvalokaikanaatham

Someday I want to be able to recite the whole Vishnusahasranaama that follows..!!

[Hauma Hamiddha]

This is an interesting way of looking at texts. I am just giving the link because I cannot post the pictures here appropriately
shabda-megha