Indian Military News

06-16-2008, 09:02 PM

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QUOTEArmy to raise two âoffensiveâ mountain divisions 
Sandeep Dikshit

They will be in place in 3 yearsÂ

NEW DELHI: The Army will raise two âoffensiveâ mountain divisions in three years, according to sources in the Army. They will be equipped with air portable guns and an integral air component to quickly transport troops into battle positions.

In simple terms, each division, with about 10,000 to 13,000 troops, will take the battle into the enemy camp in the Himalayas. A substantial part of the countryâs border with Pakistan and China is mountainous. The entire mountainous stretch is unresolved and is known by various acronyms such as the Line of Control (Pakistan), the Actual Ground Position Line (Siachen\Pakistan) and the Line of Actual Control (China).

The Army already has 10 mountain divisions and a complete infantry division for undertaking operations in high altitudes. India is negotiating with the U.S. for importing six large troop transport carriers and planning to manufacture over 300 medium lift transport helicopters. It has also called tenders for light artillery guns that can be air dropped.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has been asked to manufacture 67 helicopter gunships. The other option is to import additional helicopters. Sensing the opportunity, worldâs helicopter majors are lining up to offer their wares. The Army is also mulling a proposal to better equip its soldiers for fighting in the heights.

CCS approval 

The Cabinet Committee on Security had cleared the Armyâs proposal a couple of months ago.

The sources said the outlines of the two divisions should be in place in another two years. They would include the headquarters and other elements. It would take another year to make the divisions fully functional.

Shambhu · 06-17-2008, 01:40 AM

<img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/clap.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='clap.gif' /> Offensive divisions <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/clap.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='clap.gif' /> <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/clap.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='clap.gif' /> <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/clap.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='clap.gif' /> <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/specool.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='specool.gif' /> <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/b_cowboy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='b_cowboy.gif' /> <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/b_cowboy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='b_cowboy.gif' />
We need more divisions with offensive capability..a message we need to send.

06-27-2008, 10:31 AM

Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw is no moreQUOTEField Marshal Sam Hormusji Framji Jamshedji Manekshaw, whose military victory in the 1971 Indo-Pak war led to the creation of Bangladesh, died at the Military Hospital at Wellington in Tamil Nadu on Friday. He was 94.

The Padma Vibhushan and Military Cross awardee, who was admitted to the hospital for some time for "progressive lung disease", had slipped into a coma earlier in the day and the end came just after midnight at 00:30 am, the defence ministry said in a statement.

Manekshaw had developed "acute bronchopneumonia with associated complications" and was placed under intensive care four days ago after his condition became serious.

In a condolence message to the bereaved family, Defence Minister A K Antony said, "His demise has left behind a void that will be really hard to fill. The nation has lost a great soldier, a true patriot and a noble son".

He said: "I am deeply grieved to learn of his demise. Manekshaw's nearly four-decade-long career with the Army saw him hold several important positions and he was also one of the most decorated officers".

He also lauded the general's "rare knack of motivating the jawans" and being "a man of ideas and action by leading from the front in the 1971 war".

Manekshaw was one of the 40 cadets of the first batch that passed out from the Indian Military Academy in Dehradun and earned the sobriquet "Sam Bahadur" from soldiers of the 8th Gorkha Rifles of which he was Colonel of the Regiment

Great man and great soul. Met him in 1974.

06-27-2008, 11:34 AM

QUOTELife History
Manekshaw was born in Amritsar, Punjab to Parsi parents on April 3, 1914. How did a Parsi couple settle for the holy city of the Sikhs? when asked him and was told that in 1899, his father recently qualified as a doctor and just married, could make no professional headway in Bombay, and was advised to try his luck at Lahore in the Punjab. With his young wife, he set off by train for Lahore. The long dusty and hot journey took five days and by the end of it, his young wife, who had never left the comforts and civilization of Bombay, was in hysterics and cried to go back. Poor Dr Manekshaw did all he could to comfort her, but as the train steamed into Amritsar, with her first sight of the Sikhs the young bride screamed her lungs out and refused to go any further. So they left the train at Amritsar, and there they stayed for forty-five years.

The Manekshaws had six children, four boys and two girls, and Sam was the fifth child. Sam had his schooling at Nainital's Sherwood College. After completing his schooling, he should have gone to England to pursue higher studies; this was the promise made to him by his father but, fortunately for the Indian Army, Dr Manekshaw felt that this particular son was far too young to be on his own in a foreign country, even with his two elder brothers already studying there. So he was admitted to the Hindu Sabha College, Amritsar. If he had gone abroad, he often reminisces, he would have become a doctor. 'What doctor?' when queried, and was told 'Gynaecologist.'

After a stint in Hindu College, he applied for and was accepted for entry into the first batch of the newly opened Indian Military Academy at Dehradun for training Indians for commissioned rank in the British Indian Army. He received his commission on 4th February 1934 and, after an attachment as was the practice then with a British Infantry Battalion, the 2nd Battalion the Royal Scots, he joined the 4th Battalion, 12 Frontier Force Regiment, commonly called the 54th Sikhs.

In 1937, at a social gathering in Lahore he met his future wife, Silloo Bode; they fell in love and were married on 22nd April 1939. Silloo is a graduate of Bombay's renowned Elphinstone College and also studied at the JJ School of Arts there. A voracious reader, a gifted painter and an extremely intelligent and interesting conversationalist, she has made an admirable wife and a wonderful mother.

Soldier's General
Manekshaw's military career spanned four decades, from the British era and World War II, to the three wars against China and Pakistan after India's independence in 1947.

During World War II, Manekshaw saw action in the Burma campaign on Sittang River as a Captain with the 4/12 Frontier Force Regiment and has the rare distinction of being honoured for his bravery on the battle front itself. During World War II, he was leading a counter-offensive against the invading Japanese Army in Burma. During the course of the offensive he was hit by a burst of LMG bullets and was severely wounded in the stomach. Major General D.T. Cowan spotted Manekshaw holding on to life and was aware of his valour in face of stiff resistance from the Japanese. Fearing the worst, Major General Cowan quickly pinned his own Military Cross ribbon on to Manekshaw saying, "A dead person cannot be awarded a Military Cross."

Having recovered from those near-fatal wounds in Burma, Manekshaw went for a course at Staff College, Quetta and later also served there as an instructor before being sent to join 12 Frontier Force Rifles in Burma under General (later Field Marshal) Slim's 14th Army. He was once again involved in a fierce battle with the Japanese, and was wounded for a second time. Towards the close of World War II, Manekshaw was sent as Staff Officer to General Daisy in Indo-China where, after the Japanese surrender, he helped rehabilitate over 10,000 POWs. He, then, went on a six-month lecture tour to Australia in 1946, and after his return served as a First Grade Staff Officer in the Military Operations Directorate.

Manekshaw showed acumen for planning and administration while handling the issues related to Partition in 1947, and later put to use his battle skills during the 1947-48 Jammu & Kashmir Operations. After command of an Infantry Brigade, he was posted as the Commandant of the Infantry School and also became the Colonel of 8 Gorkha Rifles (which became his new regimental home, since his original parent regiment The 12th Frontier Force Regiment went on to join the new Pakistan Army at partition ) and 61 Cavalry. He commanded a Division in Jammu & Kashmir and a Corps in the North East, with a tenure as Commandant of Defence Services Staff College (DSSC) in between

He was outspoken and stood by his convictions. This, coupled with his sense of humour, often got him into trouble with politicians. In 1961, for instance, he refused to toe the line of the then defence minister V.K. Krishna Menon and was sidelined. He was vindicated soon after when the Indian army suffered a humiliating defeat in nefa the next year, at the hands of the Chinese, resulting in Menon's resignation. Prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru rushed Manekshaw to nefa to command the retreating Indian forces. This had an electrifying effect on the demoralised officers. In no time, Manekshaw convinced the troops that the Chinese soldier was not "10 ft tall". His first order of the day characteristically said, "There will be no withdrawal without written orders and these orders shall never be issued." The soldiers showed faith in their new commander and successfully checked further ingress by the Chinese.

As GOC-in-C Eastern Command, he handled the tricky problem of insurgency in Nagaland and the grateful nation honoured him with a Padma Bhushan in 1968

The Indo-Pak war of 1965 saw Manekshaw as army commander, Eastern Command. When India was forced to launch operations in the west, Manekshaw was against attacking in the east since the main sufferers would be the people of East Pakistan. The wisdom of his advice dawned when the Indian forces fought the Pakistan army in East Pakistan in 1971.

This was Manekshaw's finest hour. As army chief and chairman, Chiefs of Staff Committee, he planned the operation meticulously refusing to be coerced by politicians to act prematurely. His strategic and operational finesse was evident when Indian pincers cut through Pakistani forces like knife through butter, quickly checkmating them.

When the prime minister asked him to go to Dhaka and accept the surrender of the Pakistani forces, he declined, magnanimously saying the honour should go to his army commander in the east. He would only go if it were to accept the surrender of the entire Pakistan Army.

Manekshaw's competence, professional standing and public stature was such that the politician and the bureaucrat alike crossed his path only at their peril. On one occasion, he found that the defence secretary had penned his own observations on a note he had written to the prime minister and defence minister. Infuriated, Manekshaw took the file and walked straight into Mrs Gandhi's office. He told her that if she found the defence secretary more competent than him to advise her on military matters she did not have a need for him. The defence secretary was found a new job.

As a commander, he was a hard taskmaster. He encouraged his officers in the face of adversity but did not tolerate incompetence. That is perhaps Manekshaw's greatest contribution, to instil a sense of duty, efficiency, professionalism in a modern Indian army and to stand up to political masters and bureaucratic interference.

In a way, he was following the path of other army chiefs, K.S. Thimayya K.M. Cariappa. A holy terror, there are many tales of the power of his whiplash. Following Pakistan's surrender in the east, Manekshaw flew into Calcutta to compliment his officers. The ceremonial reception over at Dum Dum airport, he was escorted to a car -- a Mercedes captured from the enemy. Manekshaw refused to sit in it, leaving the officers red-faced.

On another occasion, a general accused of misusing funds was marched up to him. "Sir, do you know what you are saying?" asked the general. "You are accusing a general of being dishonest." Replied Manekshaw: "Your chief is not only accusing you of being dishonest but also calling you a thief. If I were you I would go home and either shoot myself or resign. I am waiting to see what you will do." The general submitted his resignation that evening.

Manekshaw became the 8th Chief of Army Staff when he succeeded General Kumaramangalam on 7 June 1969. His years of military experience were soon put to the test as thousands of refugees from the erstwhile East Pakistan started crossing over to India as a result of oppression from West Pakistan. The volatile situation erupted into a full-scale war in December 1971.

During this Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, Manekshaw showed uncommon ability to motivate the forces, coupling it with a mature war strategy. The war ended with Pakistan's unconditional surrender, and the formation of Bangladesh. More than 45,000 Pakistani soldiers and 45,000 civilian personnel were taken as POWs. He masterminded the rout of the Pakistan Army in one of the quickest victories in the recent military history. This led to the Shimla Agreement which opened the door to the creation of the nation of Bangladesh as separate from Pakistan.

For his distinguished service to the country, the President of India awarded him a Padma Vibhushan in 1972 and conferred upon him the rank of Field Marshal on 1 January 1973. Manekshaw became the first of the only two Indian Army Generals to be awarded this prestigious honorary rank; the other being the late Field Marshal Kodandera Madappa Cariappa. Manekshaw retired a fortnight later (although technically Field Marshals of the Indian Army never retire because the rank is conferred for life), on 15 January 1973, after completing nearly four decades of military service.

His distinguished and illustrious military career has spanned four decades and through five wars, including World War II.

Following his retirement from the Indian Army, Manekshaw has successfully served as a director of numerous companies.

On Thursday it was reported that Manekshaw was seriously ill and had slipped into a coma. Doctors at the Army Hospital in Wellington, Tamil Nadu were working hard to resusticate him. But the man who successfully fought many battles for India could not win this battle of life.

- S. Raghunathan with inputs from news agencies

06-27-2008, 11:41 AM

Sam's daughter Maya Daruwalas works for Ford Foundation.

06-28-2008, 12:31 AM

When 'Sam Bahadur' confronted Indira GandhiQUOTEMumbai, June 27: There are legends galore about India's best known soldier. One such incident is about how as the Army Chief in 1971, General Sam Manekshaw confronted the then Prime Minister Indira Gandhi on the Bangladesh issue.
The Field Marshal narrated this incident at the inaugural Field Marshal KM Cariappa Memorial Lecture in October 1995 at Delhi.

"There is a very thin line between being dismissed and becoming a Field Marshal. In 1971, when Pakistan cracked down in East Pakistan, hundreds and thousands of refugees started pouring into India, into West Bengal, Assam and Tripura. The Prime Minister held a Cabinet meeting in her office. I was then summoned.

A very angry, grim-faced Prime Minister read out telegrams from the Chief Ministers of West Bengal, Assam and Tripura.

She then turned around to me and said, 'What are you doing about it?' And I said, 'Nothing, it's got nothing to do with me. You didn't consult me when you allowed the BSF, the CRP and RAW to encourage the Pakistanis to revolt. Now that you are in trouble, you come to me. I have a long nose. I know what's happening.'

She said, 'I want you to enter Pakistan. And I responded, That means war!'

She said, 'I do not mind if it is war.'

I said 'Are you prepared? I am certainly not. This is the end of April. The Himalayan passes are opening and there can be an attack from China.'

I turned around to the Prime Minister and said that the rains were about to start in East Pakistan and when it rains there, it pours and the whole countryside is flooded.

The snows are melting, the rivers would become like oceans.

All my movement would be confined to roads."

Manekshaw told Gandhi that the Air Force would not be able to provide support because of climatic conditions. "Now Prime Minister, give me your orders. The grim Prime Minister with her teeth clenched said, 'The Cabinet will meet again at four o'clock.' 

The Cabinet members started walking out. I being the junior most was the last to go and as I was leaving, she said, 'Chief, will you stay back?'

I turned around and said, 'Prime Minister, before you open your mouth, may I send you my resignation on grounds of health, mental or physical?'

She said, 'Everything you told me is true.'

'Yes! It is my job to tell you the truth,' I responded. 'And it is my job to fight, it is my job to fight to win and I have to tell you the truth.'

She smiled at me and said, 'All right Sam, you know what I want?' I said, 'Yes, I know what you want!'"

Manekshaw apparently had his way as the Bangladesh war took place seven months later, giving the armed forces ample time for preparations.

06-28-2008, 03:48 AM

QUOTEGovt buries civility at Sam Bahadur's funeral 
Pioneer News Service | New Delhi /Ooty
Barrig MoS, political & defence brass give it a miss
Minister of State for Defence MM Pallam Raju was the lone Union Government representative at the state funeral of Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw at Wellington, 85 km from Coimbatore. India has an inglorious tradition of forgetting its brave soldiers but in the case of the nation's greatest war hero, the amnesia set in even before his body had been laid to rest.Â

Field Marshal Sam Hormusji Framji Jamshedji Manekshaw, who led India's famous military victory in the 1971 India-Pakistan war that resulted in the creation of Bangladesh, died in Military Hospital in Wellington, Tamil Nadu, late on Thursday. He was 94.

As a 17-gun salute boomed, Manekshaw was buried in a Parsi graveyard near the place where his wife lay buried. The last rites were performed as per Zoroastrian customs. His wife Silloo had died seven years back.

The iconic military personality was given the final salute and laid to rest with full military honours, but the apathy of India's ruling establishment was pronounced on the occasion.

Sadly, the funeral of India's most decorated soldier was skipped by the entire defence establishment, except the MOS. Defence Minister AK Antony was very much in Delhi on Friday, but he seemed more preoccupied with his duty as the Prime Minister's pointsman to deal with UPA allies and the Left on the nuclear stand-off issue.

Air Chief Marshal Fali H Major and Navy Admiral Sureesh Mehta were also in the Capital on Friday. They walked in the footsteps of their boss and did not think it prudent to attend the funeral of the man who spent years of his life putting into shape India's colossal defence structure, which they now preside over. Army Chief Deepak Kapoor was in Moscow and was represented by Vice-Chief Lt General ML Naidu at the funeral. But no senior Navy or Air Force official flew down to Wellington.

There are three private helipads in and around Wellington, which is located in the midst of the picturesque Ooty. Both private and military choppers are available at Coimbatore and they would have taken less than 30 minutes to land at Welligton.

If the top brass of the defence establishment did not take the trouble to pay the rightful homage to the Field Marshal, then the country's political class was equally apathetic in respecting the departed soldier. The MOS of defence represented the defence establishment as well as Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. No other Cabinet minister was present at the funeral.

The State Government's response was equally sad. A lone Tamil Nadu Minister was present on the occasion.

The indifference with which the Government treated Manekshaw's last rites has shocked former soldiers. "It is a sad reflection of the mindset of the Government, which is so preoccupied in pursuing the nuclear deal with the US that it has forgotten even the basic civility," commented a retired Army officer.

The body of 'Sam Bahadur', as he was affectionately called, was kept at the Madras Regiment Centre parade grounds, Wellington, for about three hours from 11.15 am to enable the public to pay homage to the departed General.

The body was then placed inside a closed coffin in an open flower-bedecked military truck and brought to the graveyard, 21 km from Wellington. Public and media were not allowed inside the graveyard while the last rites were being performed as Manekshaw's family members wanted the ceremony to be a private affair.

The Tamil Nadu Government had announced a day's official mourning on Friday as a mark of respect to the country's most celebrated Army chief.


Current government is sick jokers.

ramana · 07-01-2008, 09:41 PM

From Pioneer, 1 July 2008

QUOTEMan with a swagger

Rahul Datta
It will not be wrong to say Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw ranked along with military leaders like Rommel, Montgomery and Patton who led brilliant campaigns and raised the morale of their men when faced with tremendous odds while at war

For all his iconic stature, Field Marshal Sam Hormusji Framji Jamshedji Manekshaw's critics would say he had created a halo of bravado around himself. The swagger, the reputation for blunt-speaking, the hail-fellow well-met cheerfulness, the cap worn at a jaunty angle atop a pink face with a trademark moustache, was all there for effect.

Granted for a moment, his critics are correct. But what's wrong about it all? Leaders even go out of their way to cultivate such attributes. In fact, that's what good public relations professionals are supposed to be doing for great leaders, military or civilian.

Having taken a full burst of machine gun fire in his stomach as a young captain during the Burma campaign in World War II, Sam, who later walked with a slight slouch due to the wounds, had every right to demand the best from his men. And they could not refuse their commander as he had faced death from close quarters and earned a Military Cross for this daring act.

But let not such matters come in the way of any cold assessment of the man. Sam Bahadur, as he was also known because of his connection with the Gorkha Regiment as its Colonel, and the way he espoused their cause, once said there was a thin line between promotion and dismissal or something to that effect.

Asked to go take East Pakistan -- what is now Bangladesh -- in April 1971, he had the courage to tell then Prime Minister Indira Gandhi to her face at a Cabinet meeting, to which he had been invited, that he could not do it because he was poorly prepared for a war-like operation. He did not have the required number of tanks, and he did not have the men either.

What Manekshaw must have meant was that such matters like timing of war operations are best left to military brains in the operations room rather than to Cabinet meetings.

Sam chose his own timing. A war, which could have been a long drawn affair, was over in a swift fortnight in December 1971. It was a great triumph for the Indian Army when Gen AAK Niazi appended his signature to the surrender document along with his 90,000 Pakistani troops and handed his revolver to India's Eastern Army commander, the late Lt Gen JS Arora.

The story goes that when Richard Nixon, the then President of the US, whose Seventh Fleet was in menacingly close waters, asked his Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen Westmoreland how long it would take for the Indian Army to take East Pakistan, his considered assessment was one-and-a-half months.

No one knows if Gen Westmoreland could look straight into his President's eyes after the Dhaka surrender. The Indian Army redeemed some of the izzat it had lost less than a decade in the India-China conflict.

For all his bluff and bluster manner, Sam Bahadur was also a serious military thinker. Policy decisions are best left to lawfully established civilian authority. This is a principle, which our Army has adhered to, and something which is the envy of many other countries.

However straightforward, or disagreeable their advice in matters professional, they have never become over-ambitious. Cases of people in the top echelons of the officer corps bending to please civilian authority have eroded pride and propriety, or izzat. But Generals like Manekshaw, who would speak their mind rather than compromise on matters military, cannot be accused of such pettiness.

There were soldiers of great competence in the Army hierarchy during Manekshaw's time. But Sam had special qualifications that gave him an edge and ensured his rise to the top at Sena Bhavan.

Men like Manekshaw are very special iconic personalities who shape history with charismatic leadership in their chosen profession. Sam Bahadur has done the profession of arms in India proud by his leadership.

His services to the nation will be remembered for a long time to come and inspire youth to join the profession of arms at a time of officer shortage in the three services. Money is not all. There is still some izzat left and the way of life that drew Manekshaw to the Army can again be given another chance.

In fact, it will not be wrong to say Sam Bahadur ranks along with military leaders like Rommel, Montgomery and Patton who led brilliant campaigns and raised the morale of their men when faced with tremendous odds.

Montgomery had to make special efforts to inspire his Eighth Army when they were overawed by the charisma of Rommel, the 'desert fox', in Africa. Driving around the battlefront in an open jeep while bombs rained all around him and machine gun fire raked the armoured carriers, Rommel's well-executed tank battles and fast thrusts into enemy territory had left the British clueless in World War II.

Montgomery rallied his men around after facing several reverses and used to come out of his mobile cabin without helmet and stand amidst artillery barrage by the Africa Korps. This act, no doubt, meant to charge his men, required sheer guts and the British soldiers went on to fight back and rest is history.

Patton's dash through Europe when the Germans were giving hell to the Allied Forces, besiders the brandishing of his service revolver and firing at the Luftwaffe fighter planes, are part of military history and folklore. All these three military leaders and our Sam Bahadur had that something extra, be it charisma, bravery or strength of character, to turn things around and get the job done when the country demanded them to do so.



Interesting article. He makes statements and does not articulate the thoguhts that lead to the statements. And interesting that he compares FM Manekshaw to flamboyant Western commanders. And has wasted the space in that. He might have his reasons.

I think FM Manekshaw was an entity in his own right and beyond comparison. His task was much harder thant that od those examples considering that India in the early 70s was just emerging from the disastrous 60's.

ramana · 07-03-2008, 02:29 AM

About the condolence book:
Other than the established politicians were there any others who signed the book? Eg how about bahu? Or calf?

07-03-2008, 05:23 AM

QUOTE(ramana @ Jul 3 2008, 02:29 AM)About the condolence book:
Other than the established politicians were there any others who signed the book? Eg how about bahu? Or calf?
[right][snapback]83711[/snapback][/right]

Neither Bahu or puppies or gatekeepers

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 07-11-2008, 01:05 AM by Bodhi.)

QUOTEIndian Ex-Servicemen's Movement

...bureaucrats have been trying to create a caste system in the Government and have been aided by the 6th Pay Commission. They haveÂ usurped the slot of the highest caste who supposedly deem themselves to deserve the icing on the Pay commission cake. India is not a banana republic and the Indian Armed Forces are not mercenaries. We are an Armed forces with time honoured values and traditions and have always performed. The erosion of these values and traditions is irreparable. The depletion of the Armed forces cannot be made up overnight by outsourcing the Defence of the country.

It would thus be apt to recall Kautilya's sagely advice to Chandragupta on the Mauryan Soldier: "If ever things come to a sordid pass when, on a given day, the Mauryan soldier has to LOOK BACK over his shoulder (simhawalokana) prompted by even a single worry about his and his family's material, physicalÂ and social well being, it should cause you and your Council the greatest concern and distress. I beseech you to take instant note and act with uncommon dispatch to address the soldier's anxiety. It is my bounden duty to assure you, My Lord that the day when the Mauryan soldier has to demand his dues or, worse, plead for them, will neither have arrived overnight nor in vain. It will also bode ill for Magadha. For then, on that day, you, My Lord, you will have lost all moral sanction to be King! It will also be the beginning of the end of the Mauryan Empire!"

[Excerpt from a Press Note issued during an Ex-Servicemen's Rally being held in front of Hotel Tamil Nadu, Gandhipuram on 06th July 2008 from 09:45 A.M to 11:00 A.M]

ravish · (This post was last modified: 08-03-2008, 10:51 AM by ravish.)

[It is reported that India has decided not to produce any more Arjun tanks as the Indian Army the end user of the product has found the performance to be unsatisfactory. Thus comes to an end another ambitious project of the DRDO. The same is the situation with the helicopter development project of the HAL . The Govt is going in to import 197 helicopters to replace the Cheetah and the Chetak machines currently used by the defence services. Already six leading manufacturers have been approached by the Govt to provide information of their products.

~~Pandyan~~ · (This post was last modified: 08-03-2008, 03:25 PM by Pandyan.)

Do these DRDO fellows have any shame or anything? Not to piss on their parade, but they are truly a waste of money. Who is employed at such chai-pakora organizations? LCA Tejas development was launched in 1983, till date its not even finished. You would expect them to have at least one active squadron by a quarter century. What is more disgraceful is that full scale induction is not expected until 2012. This is around the same time that US will have squadrons of Raptors and JSF, the most advanced fighters in the world (which will eventually be given off to pakis). Also probably the same time that China will be testing its 5th gen Shenyang J-xx.

This is the most disgraceful thing ever. HAL will be manufacturing a product that will be outdated piece of garbage by the time it comes out. They will be stuck with mig 21 for another 150 years. Arjun is one tank thats not worth its name -

QUOTEThe Indian army has deemed Arjun's performance unsatisfactory in the winter trials that began in September, 2007, including at least four engine failures. Moreover, in the most recent "accelerated user-cum-reliability trials" in 2008, the Arjun "was found to have low accuracy, frequent break down of power packs and problems with its gun barrel", and "the tanks also had problems with consistency, recorded failure of hydropenumatic suspension units and shearing of top rolls" as well as a "deficient fire control system", "low speed in tactical areas", and "the inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius".

Wow, talk about everything an MBT shouldn't be. Inability to operate in temperatures of above 50C, imagine this crap in Thar (The climate is extreme: annual temperatures can range from near-freezing in the winter to more than 50oC during the summer), where main tank battles would take place. Imagine going to war in this piece of crap. Instead of giving DRDO the contract, they might as well have given it to Equatorial Guinea or Zimbabwe, they would have probably done a better job.

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 08-28-2008, 09:29 AM by Bodhi.)

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QUOTEIndia did not achieve independence on 15th August, 1947 - We have been told from our school days that 15 August is India's Independence Day. This is a big fraud, a blot on our nation! On 15 Aug, 1947 India achieved Dominion Status not Independence. British Crown was still the head of the state and appointed the Governor General who was Lord Mountbatten. Jawaharlal Nehru on 15 Aug, 1947 was a mere caretaker interim prime minister with little powers and not elected by universal adult suffrage (vote). The second Governor General appointed by British crown was an Indian Chakravarty Rajagopalachari but had to report to British crown! All the chiefs of Army, Navy and Air force were British Officers reporting to British crown via Governor General and not to PM J.L. Nehru. In this condition many people accuse Nehru of mishandling the Kashmir issue but he had no real power to deal with the issue! Mountbattein ordered and Nehru refered the case to UNO when India was winning the war. This was because Pakistan remained a dominion till 1956 and though Jinnah was at slightly better position as Governor General overlording PM Liaqat Ali in Pakistan, the chiefs of Pakistani armed forces were also British and reported to British crown. British officers did not want to fight British officers of the other side! Thus 1/3rd Kashmir is still with Pakistan. India's real Independence Day is 26 January 1950 when we became free from British crown and Rajendra Prasad became the head of state as President. First election of independent India was on 1952. We should also come out of British Commonwealth which is a vestige of imperialism because British crown is its permanent head! Many erstwhile colonies including Ireland has left British Commonwealth. Let us all be united and demand scrapping of 15 August as India's Independence Day which is a big fraud and reinstatement of 26 January 1950 as both Republic and Independence Day.

Even a couple of years early in 1945 the over hyped Indian Army was an antinational force which had killed several freedom fighters and nipped in the bud many protests. Besides, it not only went all over the globe to fight WWII on behalf of Britain but did the worst crime of stopping the advance of Netaji Subhas and his INA at Nagaland and Manipur or else India would have been free in 1945 itself and without any partition if they had joined INA or stayed away.

A Karachi or Mumbai Mutiny influenced by Netaji in 1946 can't wash off their sin which has split India forever. And mind it, these revolts were by the Air Force and Navy while the Army solidly remained with the British colonialists till very end!

As in 1947-48 Kashmir war, most top and middle ranking officers of both Indian and Pakistani Army were British who were unwilling to fight their fellow countrymen under the banners and flags of India and Pakistan, naturally meaningless to them as soon they would pack upa nd leave for London with their pensions. Further, Gilgit Scouts a mostly British Regiment in Gilgit of Kashmir (now POK) got encircled by Pakistani and Indian troops and their frantic calls led Lord Mountbattein the CEO of India and representative of Dominion of India's Head of State - British Crown forced Nehru the puppet prime minister (as India was not free but only a British Dominion from 1947-50) to go to UN!

Hence Jinnah the master strategist unlike we cynical Hindus, instead of using Pakistani Army regulars sent Afridi tribal raiders and low ranking Muslim Jawans of Pakistani Army without uniforms to take over Kashmir.

To some extent another much hyped Sardar Patel succeeded as Home Minister as by Dominion Laws we were free internally but our Defence, Foreign Affairs and Communications were still under British control and Governor General Mountabattein and in reality British Crown was the supreme commandar of Indian Armed Forces! Our Laws came into effect when we really became independent on 26th January, 1950 - Republic Day.

Even today Indian Armed Forces are not a good integrated professional force lacking a much needed CDS (Chief of Defence Staffs for co-ordination) and split into independent Army, Navy and Air Force so that one could be used against another much like the hired mercenary pets of British! Further to make matters worse we are still following British model of dividing our national fighting machine into caste, regional andÂ religious lines like Sikh Regiment, Jat Regiment, Madras Regiment, Rajputana Rifles, Assam Rifles, etc.

Gurkha Regiment a foreign mercenary unit from Nepal is also there instead of which several young Indians could have got jobs!

We should have disbanded this anti-national pro-British force in 1947 or 1950 when we became free and made the INA of Netaji Subhas the national military. However, we can still rectify the past mistakes of our parents and grand-parents by emmulating the nationalistic principles of INA of Netaji for our defence.

well, personally I don't agree to the last suggestion. INA was even more secularized than British Indian Army itself. Bose was as PC-conditioned and secular as Nehru, if not more. If inspiration for nationalistic Armed Force has to be taken -- take it from the model followed by the first two Peshwa-s.

~~Pandyan~~ · (This post was last modified: 08-29-2008, 05:06 AM by Pandyan.)

Bose could have been even more disastrous, this was the same guy who offered prayers at the tomb of Bahadur Shah Zafar. Savarkar is not even mentioned in this article, he was instrumental in enlisting Hindus into the British Indian military which was heavily Muslim at this time. Imagine a majority Muslim Army at the time of Independence.

On that somber occasion Subash Bose closed his speech with a couplet composed by Bahadur Shah Zafar after the collapse of the 1857 revolt: 

So long as the ghazis are imbued with the spirit of faith
The sword of Hindustan will reach London's throne

QUOTEFurther to make matters worse we are still following British model of dividing our national fighting machine into caste, regional andÂ religious lines like Sikh Regiment, Jat Regiment, Madras Regiment, Rajputana Rifles, Assam Rifles, etc.

I agree with this part. All these regiments should be regrouped into formations like in the American military.

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 08-29-2008, 09:32 AM by Bodhi.)

QUOTE(Pandyan @ Aug 29 2008, 05:04 AM)the British Indian military which was heavily Muslim at this time. Imagine a majority Muslim Army at the time of Independence.
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British army was "NEVER" heavily muslim at any point in time, period. Much before Savarkar was even born, Hindus were over 3/4th of the natives in the British Army, always.

~~Pandyan~~ · 08-29-2008, 11:55 AM

See Annexure B. Muslim percentage decreases from 1940. Would you have any sources for 3/4th figure?

http://www.defencejournal.com/sept99/martial-races.htm

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 08-29-2008, 01:48 PM by Bodhi.)

Data in the link you posted shows only 1940 onwards. Here is the data compiled by Dr. B R Ambedkar from Army Archives, during the days leading upto partition:

% of Muslims in Indian Army
1914 -- 18.7%
1918 -- 17.4%
1919 -- 18.9%
1930 -- 22.6%

Never more than 1/4th in the first three decades, although in certain areas of the army, such as in infantry and cavalry, muslim %might have been as high at 30-35% by 1930, whereas in other areas as low as 5-10%.

Now, for the entire decade of 1930s, this religious-ethnic classification was concealed by the British for whatever unknown reasons. Dr. Ambedkar comments:

QUOTEIt is one of the most intriguing things in the Military history of India that no information is available on this point after 1930. It is impossible to know what the proportion of the Muslims in the Indian Army at present is. There is no Government publication from which such information can be gathered. In the past, there was no dearth of publications giving this information. It is very surprising that they should have now disappeared, or if they do appear, that they should cease to contain this information. Not only is there no Government publication containing information on this point, but Government has refused to give any information on the point when asked by members of the Central Legislative Assembly.

Even this % of Muslims in British Army by the first decade of the 20th century -- ranging 18% on lower side and 27 on higher -- was actually an increase over what it earlier was! So, what was muslim %age in the 19th century?

Ambedkar quotes Chouduri who analyzed the religious composition of Army from the earliest days upto 1930:

QUOTEThe pre-Mutiny army of Bengal was essentially a Brahmin and Kshalriya army of the Ganges basin.... on the eve of the Mutiny was mainly recruited from Oudh, North and South Bihar, especially the latter, principally Shahabad and Bhojpur, the Doab of the Ganges and Jumna and Rohilkhund. The soldiers recruited from these areas were mostly high-caste men. Brahmins of all denominations, Kshatriyas, Rajputs and Ahirs.

The average proportion in which these classes were enrolled in a regiment was:
(1) Brahmin 7/24,
(2) Rajput 1/4,
(3) Inferior Hindu 1/6,
(4) Musalman 1/6,
(5) Punjabis 1/8. 

A single year and a single rebellion was, however, to change all this. The Mutiny, which broke out in 1857, blew up the old Bengal Army and brought into existence a Punjabized and barbarized army, resembling the Indian Army of today in broad lines and general proportions of its composition.
 (written in 1930/31)

The other two regional armies - Madras and Bombay Native Armies, had even less Musalmans. Madras as much as 4-5% and Bombay 10-15% muslims. And even then Bangal Army was much larger than Madras and Bombay.

Musalmans, I repeat, were never a predomiant force of British Army, EVER. Only during WW-II, they might have gone upto 1/3 of total number, but that is the peak. Of course the Pakistani writers like the one you quoted, try to pose it differently.

In fact, I would guess INA of Netaji would have had a higher % of Muslims than British Army.

Bodhi · 08-29-2008, 01:57 PM

And by the way, the reason why Savarkar exhorted Hindu youth to join the army was not to change the composition of the army (which was already full of Hindus), but to change the character of the Hindu youth (which was encouraged to not enroll into army by the likes of Gandhi)

Naresh · 08-29-2008, 02:34 PM

QUOTE(Bodhi @ Aug 29 2008, 01:24 PM)Â Here is the data compiled by Dr. B R Ambedkar from Army Archives, during the days leading upto partition:
.
.
The other two regional armies - Madras and Bombay Native Armies, had even less Musalmans.Â Madras as much as 4-5% and Bombay 10-15% muslims.Â And even then Bangal Army was much larger than Madras and Bombay.

Musalmans, I repeat, were never a predomiant force of British Army, EVER.Â Only during WW-II, they might have gone upto 1/3 of total number, but that is the peak.Â Of course the Pakistani writers like the one you quoted, try to pose it differently.

In fact, I would guess INA of Netaji would have had a higher % of Muslims than British Army.
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Bodhi Ji :

Churchill in his Letter and Telegram to Roosevelt stated that the Majority Content of the Indian Army was Muslims and I refer you to the following :

1. Narendra Singh Sarila, who had been his ADC in 1947, and who has stated the following in his book Shadow of the Great Game. :

In 1942 Churchill sent a telegram to President Roosevelt claiming that, "Approximately 75 per cent of the Indian troops are Muslims..."

2. In his letter to Roosevelt, I believe dated 06-03-1947, Churchill stated to the effect that the Muslims were a Majority in the Indian Army and as such India would be unable to defend itself (or similar words).

In case you do not have access to the Book of Churchillâs Letters to Roosevelt please let me know and I will find the Book and copy the letter for your benefit.

3. In your Link to Dr. Ambedkarâs Book Pakistan or the Partition of India please read CHAPTER V WEAKENING OF THE DEFENCES wherein under the Title of COMMUNAL PERCENTAGES IN INFANTRY AND CAVALRY, 1930, the Defence Secretary Mr. C. M. G. Ogilvie would not divulge the âReligious Contentâ of the Indian Army despite being asked repeatedly

Guidance : The Undivided Punjab Population had a 51-52% Muslim content but the Undivided Punjab Police Force had about 75% Muslim Content.

Cheers <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' />

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