Amarnath Land Deal

[Guest]

Salam memsahib
<img src='http://im.rediff.com/news/2008/aug/15sld2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[Bodhi]

Jagran reports that Srinagar had a field day today for islamists carrying Pakistani-flags and shouting "Jeeve Jeeve Pakistan" and "Bharat ko Tod Do". Army-Police just kept watching withoud doing anything -- in contrast to how they treat tricolur carrying "Bharat Mata Ki Jay" shouting Hindus of Jammu.

पाकिस्तानी झंडे लेकर घूम रहे देशविरोधी
Aug 15, 02:22 am

जागरण ब्यूरो, श्रीनगर : केंद्र सरकार की तुष्टिकरण व घुटना-टेक नीति के कारण कश्मीर में वो स्थिति बन गई है कि अलगाववादी अब पाकिस्तानी झंडा लेकर पाकिस्तान के समर्थन और भारत के विरोध में नारे लगाते घूम रहे हैं। सुरक्षाबल सब कुछ अपनी आंखों से देखकर भी कुछ करने का साहस नहीं जुटा पा रहे।

गौरतलब है कि 14 अगस्त पाकिस्तान का स्वतंत्रता दिवस है जबकि भारत का स्वाधीनता दिवस 15 अगस्त को मनाया जाता है। लेकिन ठीक 14 अगस्त वीरवार को प्रदर्शनकारियों का एक समूह पाकिस्तानी ध्वज लेकर 'जीवे-जीवे पाकिस्तान', 'हम क्या चाहते है..आजादी', 'भारत को तोड़ दो' जैसी भड़काऊ नारेबाजी करते हुए नटीपोरा, छन्नपोरा और रामबाग में खूब घूमा। यह जुलूस रामबाग पुल तक भी आया लेकिन इसने पुल पार नहीं किया।

श्रीनगर शहर के रामबाग इलाके में सैंकड़ों की तादाद में तैनात व पुलिस के जवानों ने इसे अपनी आंखों से देखा लेकिन किसी ने इस पर कोई आपत्ति नहीं जताई। उन्होंने पाकिस्तान समर्थकों को न सिर्फ जुलूस निकालने दिया बल्कि देश की एकता और अखंडता के खिलाफ नारेबाजी भी करने दी। हालांकि आज पाकिस्तानी ध्वज को लहराए जाने के संबंध में कोई भी अधिकारी पुष्टि करने को तैयार नहीं।

[Guest]

http://www.business-standard.com/india/sto...p?autono=331548

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->For India, therefore, the superior strategy, regardless of what the liberal bleeding hearts say, is to cut off all communication with the apparatchiks of Kashmir. As a follow-up, it must also cut off all development aid to the Valley because it is that which provides the financial resources (via corruption enabled by the contractors) for the apparatchiks to continue with the game. The aid has become the incentive to continue with the game.

But if one side walks away from the game, as the USSR did in 1990, the villains of the other side will invariably lose. Even when children play, when one child who owns the ball walks away with it because the others won’t let it bat, in the end everyone gains because a bargaining solution with a finite outcome is found. This is what must be done in Kashmir.

Stupid idea? OK, but has anything else worked? If not, why not try this, Mr Vohra? As I said, nothing ventured, nothing gained.


<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Shambhu]

This is because of the lack of Hindu mindset to retaliate against atrocities against Hindus. When in 1949, anti-Hindu riots took place in East Pakistan, Sardar Patel had declared that if the government there could not control it, then India was quite capable of putting it down for them. Soon after then the riots stopped.
http://hindurenaissance.com/index.php/2008.../menu-id-1.html

--------------------------------------------------
IMO, deep down, most Hindus today are afraid of something. When this fear is calmly faced and thought about, it disappears. Fearless Hindus would not only go a long way toward protecting India, they would actually annihilate radical Islam and missionary Christianity.

[G.Subramaniam]

Dailypioneer
Premen Addy

A perusal of Barbara Crossette's report in the New York Times, at the commencement of the Pakistan-incubated Islamist insurgency in Kashmir in January 1990, will reveal the prognostication of an unnamed Islamabad-based Western diplomat, that the world was about to witness a permanent shift in the Sub-continental balance of power. The prediction mercifully was as still-born as the Nixon Administration's hope of similar geopolitical change in the wake of its support for the Pakistani military dictatorship in its war with India in December 1971.

--

Can someone elaborate

[Bodhi]

<!--QuoteBegin-Shambhu+Aug 16 2008, 02:40 AM-->QUOTE(Shambhu @ Aug 16 2008, 02:40 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->IMO, deep down, most Hindus today are afraid of something. When this fear is calmly faced and thought about, it disappears. Fearless Hindus would not only go a long way toward protecting India, they would actually annihilate radical Islam and missionary Christianity.
[right][snapback]86519[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Know what? this fearing Hindu is a minority, and fearless Hindu a majority. But the Fearing Hindu is elite and controls the way the whole Hindu soceity thinks collectively. and is therefore slowly converting the subsequent generations from the fearless to the afraid. If it went on for a few decades then afraid (aka dhimmi) will be a natural majority.

Way out?

Take the enemy head on. Go All Out. Dont insist on democratic, playing within established rule set, and so on.... majority of Hindu leaders do that today. They dont understand that these rules of the game are MEANT to keep them under shackles. These Rules are built for this purpose. Break them and play to your rules.

Second, the REAL could-be-leaders of Hindus are not getting leadership, whereas uncapable ones (intellectually, spiritually, and leadership-ability-wise) - aka morons - are on the forefront. And they are naturally afraid due to to inherent inferiority, and they spread their inferiority around among lay Hindus. Remove These People from Leadership. But How?

[Bodhi]

<span style='color:red'>Martyrs So Far...</span>

1. July 6: Ramesh, suicided by jumping from roof top at Peer Mittha. He was being chased by atrocious policemen.

2. Kuldeep Kumar Varma-Dogra
23 July 2008: Public suicide at Parade by consuming poison after reciting a poem.

<img src='http://l.yimg.com/ki/epaper/jagran/20080816/09/jmu23jkcd15-1_1218859413_m.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

3. 25 July: Muneesh Singh of Janipur attempted suicide. Family changed the statement under police pressure.

<img src='http://l.yimg.com/ki/epaper/jagran/20080816/09/jmu29jkcd20-1_1218859410_m.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

4. 29 July: Kamaljeet of samba attempted suicide by drinking poison.

<img src='http://l.yimg.com/ki/epaper/jagran/20080816/09/jmu29jkcd19a-1_1218859411_m.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[Bodhi]

5 & 6.
August 1 : Jugal Kishore and Suneel Singh, first killings in police firing at Samba. Shot in heart.

<img src='http://l.yimg.com/ki/epaper/jagran/20080816/09/jmu01jkcd33-c-3-1_1218859409_m.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

<img src='http://l.yimg.com/ki/epaper/jagran/20080816/09/jmu01jkcd34-c-3-1_1218859407_m.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[Bodhi]

7. August 4 : Sunny Padha and Sanjeev Singh killed at Samba. Shot straight in the head by police.

<img src='http://l.yimg.com/ki/epaper/jagran/20080816/09/jmu4jkcd11-c-3-1_1218859412_m.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

<img src='http://l.yimg.com/ki/epaper/jagran/20080816/09/jmu4jkcd12-c-3-1_1218859411_m.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

8. August 6: Narendra Sharma s/o Jagdeesh Sharma killed by Army's bullets at Kathua-Jabadakhad.

<img src='http://l.yimg.com/ki/epaper/jagran/20080816/09/jmu6kth8-c-2-1_1218859409_m.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[Bodhi]

9. August 10: Anil Kumar of R.S.Pura attempted public suicide.

10. August 11: Jeevan Singh of Kanachakk attempted public suicide.

<img src='http://l.yimg.com/ki/epaper/jagran/20080816/09/jmu10jaa-01-c-3-1_1218859408_m.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

11. August 14: Ex-Armyman Medical Doctor Dr. Balwant Khajuria committed public suicide at Hiranagar

<img src='http://l.yimg.com/ki/epaper/jagran/20080816/09/jmu14kth3-1_1218859407_m.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[Bodhi]

State education department suspends 5 teachers of Hirapur. They were instrumental in leading the protesters.

आंदोलन में शामिल होने पर पांच शिक्षक निलंबित
हीरानगर : जमीन को लेकर जारी आंदोलन की तपिश ठंडा करने के लिए प्रशासन ने आंदोलनकारियों का साथ दे रहे पांच शिक्षकों को निलंबित कर दिया है। प्राप्त जानकारी के अनुसार संघर्ष समिति द्वारा चलाए जा रहे आंदोलन में भाग लेने के कारण शिक्षा विभाग के मढ़ीन जोन के पांच अध्यापकों को डीसी कठुआ ने निलंबित कर दिया है। जिला कठुआ के मुख्य शिक्षा अधिकारी के अनुसार डीसी कठुआ के निर्देश पर उन्होंने मढ़ीन शिक्षा जोन के पांच अध्यापकों को निलंबित किया है। सीईओ ने कहा कि अध्यापकों को अपनी सफाई पेश करने का पूरा मौका दिया जाएगा।

[Bodhi]

While Valley hoisted Pakistani flags everywhere on Aug 14, Jammu was burning them.

<img src='http://l.yimg.com/ki/epaper/jagran/20080816/09/jmu14jaa-11-c-3-1_1218859357_m.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[Bodhi]

<img src='http://l.yimg.com/ki/epaper/jagran/20080816/09/jmu14jaa-4-c-3-1_1218859355_m.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

<img src='http://l.yimg.com/ki/epaper/jagran/20080816/09/jmu14jaa-10-c-3-1_1218859356_m.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

<img src='http://l.yimg.com/ki/epaper/jagran/20080816/09/jmu14jaa-7-c-3-1_1218859355_m.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[Bodhi]

Bull of mahadeva being invoked by devotees to lead the movement for amareshwara.

<img src='http://l.yimg.com/ki/epaper/jagran/20080816/09/jmu14jaa-5-c-3-1_1218859354_m.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[Shambhu]

Bodhiji, re 346, absolutely true. We need to make these real leaders come forward..

[G.Subramaniam]

I really hate these stupid hindu suicides
Suicides have no effect
Hindu society is too ungrateful and almost dying and islamists have no conscience
If they want to have an impact, join a VDC and kill jihadis before dying

[Guest]

Sucide is a biggest stupidity. Why kill yourself, make other to die for your cause?

These Congressi are shameless people. Moron Singh lose sleep when foreign government arrest Indian Muslim terrorist, but enjoy feast when Hindus dies in India.

[G.Subramaniam]

Vir Singhvi wants to give independence to kashmir

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Fu...the+Unthinkable



Think the Unthinkable
August 16, 2008
First Published: 22:55 IST(16/8/2008)
Last Updated: 23:15 IST(16/8/2008)


Have you been reading the news coming out of Kashmir with a mounting sense of despair? I know I have. It’s clear now that the optimism of the last few months — all those articles telling us that normalcy had returned to Kashmir — was misplaced. Nothing has really changed since the 1990s. A single spark — such as the dispute over Amarnath land — can set the whole valley on fire, so deep is the resentment, anger and the extent of secessionist feeling. Indian forces are treated as an army of occupation. New Delhi is seen as the oppressor. There is no engagement with the Indian mainstream. And even the major political parties do not hesitate to play the Pakistan card — Mehbooba Mufti is quite willing to march to the Line of Control.

At one level, the current crisis in Kashmir is a consequence of a series of actions by the Indian establishment. New Delhi let the situation fester until it was too late. The state administration veered between inaction and over-reaction. The Sangh Parivar played politics with Hindu sentiment in Jammu, raising the confrontation to a new level.

But we need to look at the Kashmir situation in a deeper way. We can no longer treat it on a case-by-case basis: solve this crisis, and then wait and see how things turn out in the future. If the experience of the last two decades has taught us anything, it is that the situation never really returns to normal. Even when we see the outward symptoms of peace, we miss the alienation and resentment within. No matter what we do, things never get better, for very long.

It’s not as though the Indian state has no experience of dealing with secessionist movements. Almost from the time we became independent 61 years ago, we have been faced with calls for secession from nearly every corner of India: from Nagaland, Assam and Mizoram, from Tamil Nadu, from Punjab etc.

In every single case, democracy has provided the solution. We have followed a three-pronged approach: strong, almost brutal, police or army action against those engaging in violence, a call to the secessionist leaders to join the democratic process and then, generous central assistance for the rebuilding of the state. It is an approach that has worked brilliantly. Even in, say, Mizoram, where alienation was at its height in the 1970s, the new generation sees itself as Indian. The Nagas now concentrate their demands on a redrawing of state boundaries (to take in part of Manipur), not on a threat to the integrity of India. In Tamil Nadu, the Hindi agitation is forgotten and in Punjab, Khalistan is a distant memory.

The exception to this trend has been Kashmir. Contrary to what many Kashmiris claim, we have tried everything. Even today, the state enjoys a special status. Under Article 370 of our Constitution, with the exception of defence, foreign policy, and communication, no law enacted by parliament has any legitimacy in Kashmir unless the state government gives its consent. The state is the only one in India to have its own Constitution and the President of India cannot issue directions to the state government in exercise of the executive power of the Union as he can in every other state. Kashmiri are Indian citizens but Indians are not necessarily Kashmiri citizens. We cannot vote for elections to their assembly or own any property in Kashmir.

Then, there is the money. Bihar gets per capita central assistance of Rs 876 per year. Kashmir gets over ten times more: Rs 9,754 per year. While in Bihar and other states, this assistance is mainly in the forms of loans to the state, in Kashmir 90 per cent is an outright grant. Kashmir’s entire Five Year Plan expenditure is met by the Indian taxpayer. In addition, New Delhi keeps throwing more and more money at the state: in 2004, the Prime Minister gave Kashmir another $ 5 billion for development.

Kashmiris are happy to take the money and the special rights but they argue that India has been unfair to them because no free political process has developed. And, it is true that we have rigged elections in Kashmir. But, it is now nearly a decade since any rigging was alleged. Nobody disputes that the last election was fair. Moreover, even though the Congress got more seats than the PDP, the Chief Ministership went to Mufti Mohammad Sayeed as a gesture.

Given that Kashmir has the best deal of any Indian state, is there anything more we can do? Kashmiris talk about more autonomy. But I don’t see a) what more we can give them and b) how much difference it will make.

If you step back and think about it, the real question is not “how do we solve this month’s crisis”? It is: what does the Centre get in return for the special favours and the billions of dollars?

The short answer is: damn all.

As the current agitation demonstrates, far from gratitude, there is active hatred of India. Pakistan, a small, second-rate country that has been left far behind by India, suddenly acts as though it is on par with us, lecturing India in human rights and threatening to further internationalise the present crisis.

The world looks at us with dismay. If we are the largest democracy on the planet then how can we hang on to a people who have no desire to be part of India?

The other cost of Kashmir is military. Many terrorist acts, from the hijacking of IC 814 to the attack on parliament have Kashmir links. Our response to the parliament attack was Operation Parakram, which cost, in ten months, Rs 6,500 crore and 800 army lives? (Kargil cost us 474 lives.) Each day, our troops and paramilitary forces are subjected to terrorists’s attacks, stress, and ridicule.

So, here’s my question: why are we still hanging on to Kashmir if the Kashmiris don’t want to have anything to do with us?

The answer is machismo. We have been conned into believing that it would diminish India if Kashmir seceded. And so, as we lose lives and billions of dollars, the Kashmiris revel in calling us names knowing that we will never have the guts to let them go.

But would India really be diminished? One argument is that offering Kashmiris the right to self-determination would encourage every other secessionist group. But would it? Isn’t there already a sense in which we treat Kashmir as a special case? No other secessionist group gets Article 370 or so much extra consideration. Besides, if you take this line, then no solution (autonomy, soft borders etc.) is possible because you could argue that everybody else would want it too.

A second objection is that Indian secularism would be damaged by the secession of Kashmir. This is clearly not true. As history has shown, Indian Muslims feel no special kinship with Kashmir. They would not feel less Indian if some Kashmiris departed.

Moreover, too much is made of the size of Kashmir. Actually secessionist feeling is concentrated in the Valley, an area with a population of 4 million that is 98 per cent Muslim. (The Hindus either left or were driven out). Neither Jammu nor Ladakh want to secede. So, is the future of India to be held hostage to a population less than half the size of the population of Delhi?

I reckon we should hold a referendum in the Valley. Let the Kashmiris determine their own destiny. If they want to stay in India, they are welcome. But if they don’t, then we have no moral right to force them to remain. If they vote for integration with Pakistan, all this will mean is that Azad Kashmir will gain a little more territory. If they opt for independence, they will last for about 15 minutes without the billions that India has showered on them. But it will be their decision.

Whatever happens, how can India lose? If you believe in democracy, then giving Kashmiris the right to self-determination is the correct thing to do. And even if you don’t, surely we will be better off being rid of this constant, painful strain on our resources, our lives, and our honour as a nation?

This is India’s century. We have the world to conquer — and the means to do it. Kashmir is a 20th century problem. We cannot let it drag us down and bleed us as we assume our rightful place in the world.

It’s time to think the unthinkable.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->...
<b>Then, there is the money. Bihar gets per capita central assistance of Rs 876 per year. Kashmir gets over ten times more: Rs 9,754 per year. While in Bihar and other states, this assistance is mainly in the forms of loans to the state, in Kashmir 90 per cent is an outright grant. </b>Kashmir’s entire Five Year Plan expenditure is met by the Indian taxpayer. In addition, New Delhi keeps throwing more and more money at the state: in 2004, the Prime Minister gave Kashmir another $ 5 billion for development.
<b>
Kashmiris are happy to take the money and the special rights but they argue that India has been unfair to them because no free political process has developed. </b>And, it is true that we have rigged elections in Kashmir.  But, it is now nearly a decade  since any rigging was alleged. Nobody disputes that the last election was fair. Moreover, even though the Congress got more seats than the PDP, the Chief Ministership went to Mufti Mohammad Sayeed as a gesture.

<b>Given that Kashmir has the best deal of any Indian state, is there anything more we can do? Kashmiris talk about more autonomy.  But I don’t see a) what more we can give them and b) how much difference it will make.</b>

If you step back and think about it, the real question is not “how do we solve this month’s crisis”?  It is: what does the Centre get in return for the special favours and the billions of dollars?

The short answer is: <b>damn all.</b>


This is India’s century. We have the world to conquer — and the means to do it. Kashmir is a 20th century problem. We cannot let it drag us down and bleed us as we assume our rightful place in the world.

It’s time to think the unthinkable.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Makes some very valid point. But Vir Sanghvi doesn't quite think the unthinkable. The unthinkable is to treat the way China treats Tibet, by move its own citizens to Tibet and make Tibetans the minority. And come any sort of plebiscite, they would always vote against secession. It is time to treat kashmiris like every other Indian.

[Capt M Kumar]

THINKING ALOUDAmarnath and Congress legacy in J&K
Sudheendra KulkarniPosted online: Sunday, August 17, 2008 at 0105 hrs
Gen (retd) S K Sinha, who until recently served as the Governor of Jammu & Kashmir, is being blamed for the controversy surrounding the Amarnath Yatra. The charge is false and malicious. If anybody deserves the blame, it is the leadership of the Congress party and the UPA Government.

Sinha has a long association with the problem in J&K — indeed, as long as the problem itself. In October 1947, he, as a 21-year-old officer in the Indian Army, was posted in Srinagar when the newly carved out Pakistan tried to annex Kashmir by launching a military attack. How did the people of Kashmir Valley react to this invasion? Sinha, still energetic and remarkably articulate at 82, recounts with a sparkle in his eyes the slogan he had heard in the streets of Srinagar: “Hamlewaar khabardaar / Hum Kashmiri Hindu-Musalmaan hain taiyyar”. (Invaders, be warned. We Kashmiris, both Hindus and Muslims, are ready to throw you out.)

http://www.indianexpress.com/sunday/story/349705.html