Christian Subversion And Missionary Activities - 5

10-06-2008, 02:21 AM

GS or anyone on the IF,

Does anyone have statewide growth rate stats of Christians in India by year starting from 1950? I guess the seeds of the current crisis were planted in the 60s. It is very important that some one gets these stats before any campaign can start.

Thanks

Bharatvarsh · 10-06-2008, 04:08 AM

Muppalla I don't know of any such stats, for that u need census data all the way back and do calculations urself, strangely enough the religious data from the last census used to be available online but is gone now though other data about SC's and ST's is available.

Plus as u know the census hides the real % with some crypto xtians lying to get reservations, infact a recent report claimed that xtian % actually decreased in India.

What is available online is info on the funding EJ's get from abroad (at least the amount which is made public), here is a link:

http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2008/10/fun...n-of-india.html

Bharatvarsh · (This post was last modified: 10-06-2008, 04:29 AM by Bharatvarsh.)

Here is something that may have the data u look for:

Religious Demography of India/A.P. Joshi. M.D. Srinivas and J.K. Bajaj. Chennai, Centre for Policy Studies, 2003, xxii, 358 p., tables, figs., maps, $50. ISBN 81-86041-15-X. Details No. 31425

http://www.dkpd.com/servlet/dkGetBiblio?bno=060268

I will look for a copy.

10-06-2008, 05:37 AM

Why Sonia is not arrested? Her rally created riots in Delhi. Sonia Congress should be banned. Thats how congress operates.

10-06-2008, 06:44 AM

Thanks Bharatvarsh. The stats that I am looking for are very imporatant and I am trying myself.

I personally belive that the conversions is a sustained effort since 1950 and it did not start only in the last decade. Multiplication did occur rapidly as the second and third generation came into picture.

For example, Nagaland might have turned to Christian majority between 1975 - 1995 period. I am interested in analyzing Orissa and AP trends by years.

Bharatvarsh · (This post was last modified: 10-06-2008, 07:42 AM by Bharatvarsh.)

QUOTEI personally belive that the conversions is a sustained effort since 1950 and it did not start only in the last decade. Multiplication did occur rapidly as the second and third generation came into picture.

For example, Nagaland might have turned to Christian majority between 1975 - 1995 period. I am interested in analyzing Orissa and AP trends by years.
Of course it didn't start recently.

I don't know if u r aware but check out:

"The Niyogi Committee Report
On Christian Missionary Activities

http://voiceofdharma.com/books/ncr/ "

It was first published way back in 1956.

Here is something about Nagaland and North East from the above book:
QUOTEThere were good grounds for this optimism.Â Conversions to Christianity were on the increase as was soon indicated by the Census of 1971. ï¿½In India as a whole,ï¿½ wrote a Christian historian, F.S. Downs, ï¿½the Christian population increased by 64.9% between 1951 and 1971.Â This may be compared with a general population increase of 51.7% during the same period.Â In North East India the Christian population increased by 171.1% during the same period, compared with a general population growth in that region of 116.5%. Even these figures do not give the full picture because in 1971, 74.7% of the total North East India population was in Assam where the growth of the Christian community is the lowest.Â In the 1961-71 decade alone the growth of the Christian community in states and territories other than Assam was as follows:
Â

State Percentage Growth of Christians Percentage Growth of General Population
Nagaland 76.29% 39.88%
Meghalaya 75.43% 31.55%
Manipur 83.66% 37.33%
Tripura 56.52% 36.28%

In the 1951-1971 period, the Christian growth in Nagaland was 251.6%, and in Tripura 298.6%ï¿½ According to the Census of 1901 Christians in the North East constituted 1.23% of the whole, by 1951 the proportion was 7.8% and in 1971, 12.5%. North East India now had 39.8% of the non-southern Christian population.ï¿½14

Downs has not given figures for Mizoram, the Lushai Hills District of Assam, which was raised to the status of a State in 1987.Â The Christian population in this area had risen from 0.05% of the total population in 1901 to 80.31 % in 1951 due to the efforts of Protestant missions.Â In 1971, Christianity came to claim 86.09%. As against the general growth rate of 34.69% between 1951 and 1961 and 24.69 percent between 1961 and 1971, the growth rate of Christian population had been 46% and 25% for the two decades respectively.15

http://voiceofdharma.com/books/ncr/2one.htm

I will try get a copy of that book about religious demography of India.

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 10-06-2008, 09:21 AM by Bodhi.)

The frenzy of missionary activity in Orissa is not as recent as last few decades or even last half century. It goes back to the 1700s in these lands where Hindu was particularly strong so as to have had succesfully replulsed the islamic control. These lands during British period had became the SEZs (special evangelization zone) of the missionaries. Notably, Nepal, Uttarakhand, Assam, Orissa, MP especially Chhattisgarh area, Jharkhand and Mithila in Bihar, etc.

Hindus in all these lands had managed to retain their sovereignity against musalman marauders at great costs, and even though their history is not given that much of light, they had mounted quite a valorous militantic fight-back against the islamic imperialism of Sultants and Moghuls and locally outgrown Nawabs. Even in recent days, muslims were all but absent up until half a century back.

Now, unlike the other Hindu regions where the Hindus had become jarjara in their fight against moslems, these regions when encountered Christian aggression, they strongly resisted the christianism.

Read the history of the establishment of now overthrown Nepal's Hindu Rashtrakula by Raja Prithvi Narayan Shah, under inspiration from Goraksha yogis, the very first thing its founder had done was to expell the missionaries from his domains. Likewise the Orissan tribal rulers, the Judevs and others, had given a tough time to christians until their tribes were branded "criminal castes" by the british and banned from trade, economic activity and employment. Resulting in the mass starvation, which the idiots now blame on "majority Hindus".

Now, once badly beaten back by the strong pagan roots of these lands, the messengers of the religion of love, over last half a century, have fallen back to the method tried worldover and tested many times -- by coopting for the latest and crudest version of their creed, communism, by sprouting in these lands a militantization of the "suppressed" against some unknown, undeclared and fictious enemy. Maoism is the name given to this game in some parts, whereas some peculiar names in NE like a christianism-sahastranama. With complese support from the mlechCha christian lands, like earlier from the British imperialists.

The tactic has alredy succeeded in usurping the last standing Hindukula, the nepal by these maoistst, thereby securing the way for the christianism. The game was very naked, although missed by myopic Hindus of Bharata.

And the same template is being used all over the undefeated lands. Sri Lanka or Orissa, Jharkhand or Chhattisgarh, or now with newfound democracy in Bhutan. (even China in long run!)

**acharya** · 10-06-2008, 09:33 AM

Consider banning Hindutva terror groups: Harmony India tells Centre

Special Correspondent

Orissa government should hand over nun rape case to the Central Bureau of Investigation, it demands

Photo: R. Ragu

VOICING CONCERN: Participants at a condolence meeting organised by Harmony India in Chennai on Sunday to condemn the violence against Christians in Orissa and Karnataka. Seen from left are Kanimozhi, Member of Parliament; Mohammed Abdul Ali, Prince of Arcot and Secretary General of Harmony India; A.M. Chinnappa, Archbishop of Madras-Mylapore; P.C. Alexander, former Governor of Tamil Nadu and Maharashtra; and V. Devasahayam, Church of South Indiaâs Bishop in Madras. â

CHENNAI: The Central government must urgently examine all legal actions, possibly including a ban, against the extremist Hindutva groups that have unleashed terror against Christians in Orissa, Karnataka and other parts of the country, said a resolution adopted at a public meeting organised by Harmony India in Chennai on Sunday to protest the violence.

âThe Central government must clarify and identify these groups as terrorist groups and ban them,â said the Catholic Archbishop of Madras-Mylapore A.M. Chinnappa, without naming any of the groups.

The Prince of Arcot Nawab Mohammed Abdul Ali also demanded a âtotal ban on communal organisations trying to create disharmonyâ and undermining the secular structure of the Indian Constitution.

âThese recent attacks are part of the overall strategy of the Sangh Parivar to convert India into a Hindu Rashtra,â he said. The resolution condemned the atrocities, the âshockingâ response of the Orissa government, the silence and complicity of the police and the delayed intervention of the Central government.

A Cabinet meeting was called only after pressure caused by media reports and awkward questions asked in the U.S. and Europe, said N. Ram, Editor-in-Chief of TheâHindu.

The meeting demanded that the State government hand over the case of the rape of a nun and assault of a priest on August 25 to the Central Bureau of Investigation and urged that tough disciplinary action, including criminal action, be taken against senior police officers guilty of dereliction of duty.

In an open letter addressed to Gandhiji, Father Vincent Chinnadurai, chairman of the State Minorities Commission, called for the Central government to take over or suspend the governments of Orissa and Karnataka, arrest those from the Bajrang Dal and VHP who have allegedly incited violence, allow relief and personnel to enter the affected areas, award compensation and rebuild and restore homes and property.

Member of Parliament Kanimozhi pointed out that this was not a âseven week story.â Tracing the recent history of violence against minority communities from the Graham Staines murder, the Gujarat riots and subsequent incidents, she said that the latest events were ânot a reaction to something, but planned violenceâ.

âWe have let Gujarat be the testing ground. We cannot be silent spectators now,â she said, noting that in Tamil Nadu, swift action had scotched any attempts at violence.

Former governor P.C. Alexander cautioned that silence would lead to a spread of the violence. âTake a warning: today, it may be Christians in Orissa, a few in Karnataka. Who knows what will happen the day after tomorrow,â he said.

The Church of South Indiaâs Bishop in Madras V. Devasahayam dismissed the conversion conspiracy theories that have been blamed for the violence, offering demographic statistics as well as the history of the Christian community as proof.

âWe are a serving minority, but we have not used our channels of service as opportunities for conversionâ¦If we had used our educational institutions in such a way, half of Indiaâs graduates would be Christians today,â he said.

Media Development Foundation chairman Sashikumar Menon said even bringing up conversion as a âreasonâ for the violence was unjustified. The attacks were an âinsult to Hindus and an affront to Hinduismâ.

Islamic Foundation Trust vice-president K.V.S. Habeeb Muhammad said that conversion was only brought in as a bogus excuse.

âFirst, they call it revenge against the murder of Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati. Then when the naxalites clearly claim responsibility for that, they bring up conversion,â he said.

ravish · 10-06-2008, 09:38 AM

We have religious freedom in India. I may not like ISCON but that does not prevent others from having different views on ISCON. There is nothing to be allargic about my views.

10-06-2008, 04:03 PM

QUOTEWhat made Hindus angry in Karnataka

Francois Gautier

06 Oct 2008 02:12:00 AM IST

I WAS born in a Catholic family. My uncle was a priest, a wonderful man of warmth and compassion and I spent most my early years in Catholic boarding schools. When I was young I wanted to become a missionary and to 'convert' pagans in Asia. What I was taught by priests was that Hindus worship false gods and they needed to be brought back to the True Word by Jesus Christ.

Then of course, I came to India and discovered that actually Hindus, far from being the heathens, as had been portrayed in Europe, not only believed God's diversity, the wonderful concept of avatar, but had given refuge to all persecuted minorities of the world, whether the Syrian Christians, the Parsis, the Jews (India is the only country in the world where Jews were not persecuted), the Armenians, or today the Tibetans.

I am also aghast at the one-sided coverage by the Indian media of the Christian- Hindu problem: blasts after blasts have killed hundreds of innocent Hindus in Varanasi, Delhi, Mumbai train blasts, Jaipur, etc. Yet, neither Manmohan Singh nor Sonia Gandhi have pronounced once the word 'Islamic terrorism.' But when furious Hindus, tired of being made fun of, of witnessing their brothers and sisters converted by financials traps, of seeing a 84-year-old swami and his Mataji brutally murdered, of reading blasphemy about their Gods, vent their anger against churches, many of them makeshifts, the Indian government goes after the soft target which the Hindus are. The same thing applies to the United States: they never warned Muslim organisations in India about the killing of Hindus, but when dollars are used to buy new converts and it angers the majority community of India,Washington has the arrogance to issue a warning, and Manmohan Singh does not have the pride to tell the US to mind its own business.

Neither the Indian press nor the western correspondents bothered to write about what made Hindus angry in Karnataka: Newlife, one important westernfunded missionary centre ( http://www.newlifevoice.org), began making conversions in and around Mangalore by accosting poor people in market areas, or in bus stands, befriending them and then taking them to churches to introduce them to the father.

Upon introduction they were paid Rs 2,500 per person and then taken to the Velankanni shrine, in Tamil Nadu, where they would get another Rs. 3,000.

When they finally converted to Christianity by changing the name, they got an incentive of Rs 10,000 onwards.

Newlife would then give them instructions to abandon wearing tilak on forehead, not to visit and offer prayers at the Hindu temples, replacing the photos and idols of Hindu gods and goddesses with a Cross, etc.

But what really angered local Hindus was when Newlife went one step further and published a book in Kannada â Satya Darshini â which was widely distributed by its missionaries. Here below is the translation of some of the most abusive passages: "Urvashi â the daughter of Lord Vishnu â is a prostitute.

Vashistha is the son of this prostitute.

He in turn married his own Mother. Such a degraded person is the Guru of the Hindu God Rama. (page 48).

When Krishna himself is wallowing in darkness of hell, how can he enlighten others? Since Krishna himself is a shady character, there is a need for us to liberate his misled followers (page 50). It was Brahma himself who kidnapped Sita.

"Since Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva were themselves victims of lust, it is a sin to consider them as Gods. (page 39).

When the Trinity of Hinduism (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva) are consumed by lust and anger, how can they liberate others? The projection of them as Gods is nothing but a joke. (page 39). God, please liberate the sinful people of India who are worshipping False Gods. (Page 39)." When blasphemy and much worse is brought against the most sacred Hindu Gods, Hindus are supposed to take it meekly as sheep and let themselves be converted to a foreign religion! There are more than 4,000 foreign Christian missionaries involved in conversion activities across different states.

In Tripura, there were no Christians at the time of independence. There are 1,20,000 today, a 90 per cent increase since 1991. The figures are even more striking in Arunachal Pradesh, where there were only 1,710 Christians in 1961, but 1.2 million today, as well as 780 churches! In Andhra Pradesh, churches are coming up every day in far-flung villages and there was even an attempt to set up one near Tirupati.

Christians throughout the ages have strived on the concept of persecution and as a brought up Catholic, I remember feeling bad about all those martyred saints of Christianity. Christians in India like to say that they are only two per cent and can do no harm. But it is a sham: in the Tamil Nadu coastal belt from Chennai to Kanyakumari, there must be now 10 per cent Christians posttsunami and the same may be true in other parts of south India.

My heart goes out to Karnataka Chief Minister BS Yeddyurappa who took a courageous stand against unethical Christian conversions, but is now under pressure from the Centre.

The BJP, having learnt from bitter experience that the Congress has no qualm in invoking President's rule under fallacious pretexts in states which are ruled by non-Congress governments is in a quandary: it must show some action against militant Hindu groups while remaining true to itself.

This is why Yeddyurappa took some action against Hindu groups while saying that his government will not tolerate forcible conversions and will take stringent action against missionaries involved in conversions.

And ultimately, the blame must fall on Hindus: they are 800 million in India, the overwhelming majority; they have the brains, they have the money and they have the power. But either their intellectual and political class sides with the minorities, out of fear, inferiority complex imbedded by the British or just sheer crass political opportunism, or the bigger mass is indifferent inert, selfish, un-civic conscious.

Every Hindu is the inheritor of the only surviving spiritual knowledge which at the moment is under a concerted attack by Christian missionaries, Americanisation, Marxism and Islamic fundamentalism.

Bharatvarsh · 10-06-2008, 06:20 PM

QUOTEWe have religious freedom in India. I may not like ISCON but that does not prevent others from having different views on ISCON. There is nothing to be allargic about my views. 
You did NOT stop at disliking IKSCON (which I do too as it should be evident from my posts about them), you went ahead and said that gov't should take action against them (for which u never gave the reason why). To refresh ur "progressive" memory:
QUOTEIt is indeed a very dangerous development. It is time for the State to intervene or it will again turn out to be a problem like that of Anand Marg.

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.ph...opic=1842&st=60
Now please stop derailing the thread with ur trash.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 10-07-2008, 04:20 PM by Husky.)

^ K.Ram's and Bharatavarsha's posts above more important.

Huh. No address. And after I asked ravish so nicely too.

Oh well, it was too much to hope for. Besides, my sister (it's her account on Ebay) would never have let me trade anyone anyway. Thwarted in every way. Am sure there's got to be some law against other people's conscience impinging on my rights... Now I'm going to have to make up the 10 US that I owe by some lawful means <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' />

What's that? Oh no BV, did you just encourage *ravish* to *think*? <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ohmy.gif' /> <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ohmy.gif' /> <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ohmy.gif' />
QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Oct 5 2008, 07:09 PM)Listen ravish don't try to be a smart ass and just answer my question...
How about you think before you hit the keyboard to spew rubbish regularly[right][snapback]88789[/snapback][/right]You shouldn't have done that.
I see what you were trying to do to ravish, but who's going to foot the hospital bill? Really hope IF is insured.
It's probably too late for ravish. Everyone better give him some room (to "think"). I've seen this sort of thing happen before. And it's never pretty.

ravish · 10-06-2008, 10:29 PM

Bharatvarshji and Zanab Hasky Sahab,

I will desist from further postings on religious matters , so that cause of further disturbance in the discussions do not arise.Sorry for the irritation caused by me .

10-06-2008, 11:24 PM

ravishji,

Please don't walk away from the discussion, just make sure that the conversation is a two way street and you'll be able to get to the root causes.

In earlier post you asked:
QUOTEHow the Christian Missionary is able to convert a Hindu into a Christian and the Hindu religious outfits are unable to do so.
Here's 6 Conversion Tactics. Don't dismiss them with a slight of hand, it's been documented and proven in every continent of this planet where humans inhabit.
Please spend some time reading it, I reference this site since it's done a good job of aggregating different news bytes from world wide.

QUOTEThe prevention of Conversion needs to be tackled socially by the Hindus rather than the State. We Hindus need to set at rest our escapist attitude by leaving everything at the doorstep of the Government.
Hindus can keep crying themselves hoarse about their own culture till cows come home but it's not going to help when opposition is so blatantly violating the law of land and aggressively shoving bigotry in your face. Prevention of law and order is a govt issue. What do you expect from an individual when the tactics listed above are used? What do you as a individual do when flith called 'Satya Darshini' is shoved on your face? What do you do when your own govt blatantly looks the other way to the implementing laws against foreign missionary actitivites enshrined in our Indian constitution and Indian Penal Code? What do you do when your own govt refuses to act of police complaints as Lakshmananda Saraswati had done before his death?

You mention of social issues. But wasn't Lakshmananda Saraswati in Orissa doing exactly that in terms of helping oppressed tribes and classes, working for upliftment of widows and orphans, building schools and providing education and meals for those who could not afford?

QUOTEWe have religious freedom in India.
Yes, this freedom like all other freedom comes with some responsibility. If you abdicate your responsibility, freedom's on it's way out too.

10-06-2008, 11:32 PM

came in email...

http://sites.google.com/site/hindunow/kand...tist-conspiracy

Evidence re: assassination of Swami Lakshamananda. Christian conspiracy unravels

Swami Lakshmananda Saraswati and his colleagues were assassinated by Christists on Aug. 23, 2008

1. SEQUENCE OF EVENTS

1(A)-Christians passed a formal Resolution in their meeting on May 25, 2008 to assassinate Ven. Swami Lakshmananandaji Saraswati and his Sah-Yogis (colleagues) within 3 months on August 23, 2008 (Contains Decisions # 1, 2, 3, 4)

1(B) -The literal English translation of the telling Resolution passed in Oriya language

See three PDF documents referred herein for -

(i) The literal Hindi translation of the said Oriya Resolution (See document ) Document 1 http://360171806698213593-a-18027447737327...?attredirects=0

(ii) The transcription of the original Oriya Resolution in Devnaagri (Hindi)

script to get the original words used Adhiveshan No. 10 of 25 May 2008 11 AM No. 10 of 25 May 2008 11 AM (Signatory: Praful Kumar Nayak, Parish Parishad Sampadak)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6410250/Kandhmal...mi-Laxmanand-Ji

Summary minutes of the Adhiveshan No. 10 held on 25 May 2008

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6410270/Christia...Lakshmananad-Ji

(iii) Scanned copy of the original Resolution recorded in handwritten Oriya

script and language (See document 2 URL) Document 2 http://360171806698213593-a-18027447737327...?attredirects=0

1Â©-Follow-up meetings

1(D)-X'ians ASSASSINATE SWAMIJI and Sah-Yogis on August 23, 2008 evening as they had decided earlier:

2. Swamiji - Brief Sketch of his Life and Works

3. Reasons Behind the Assassination

4. History of Previous Attacks on Swamiji

5. Hard to Believe Maoist Angle

6. The Security Failure

7. After the Assassination

8. Issues Behind the Conflict in the Area

(a) Reservation

(b) Land

9. Cultural Onslaught

10. Right to 'propagate' religion never means 'right to convert' (-Supreme Court of India)

11. NIYOGI COMMITTEE REPORT

Report of the Christian Missionary Activities Enquiry Committee Madhya Pradesh 1956 (2 Volumes, three Parts)

(A summary of recommendations made by the Niyogi Committee)

12. Politics, not spirituality (- Dr David Frawley)

13. Even 100 per cent change of religion does not lead to change of economic prosperity (- Lau Kelly)

14. VHP DEMANDS setting up of a Commission to look into the activities of foreign funded Churches, Missionaries, Church sponsored NGOs, foreign funding to NGOs working for conversion and strict implementation of anti-conversion laws.

15. Orissa Government must apprehend forthwith killers of Ven. Swami Lakshmananandaji (- Ashok Singhal)

Detailed evidence and background papers:

Details for each of the above 15 items in a word doc

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6409987/Clinching-Evidence

Violent Conversions in Kandhamal: Background papers -1

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6410149/kandha...unapapers1

Violent Conversions in Kandhamal: Background papers -2

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6410190/Acharya-...er-to-Orissa-CM

Acharya Sabha letter of 26 Sept. 2008 to Orissa CM

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6410190/Acharya-...er-to-Orissa-CM

Maoists and Christians

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6410865/maoistschristians

Capt M Kumar · 10-07-2008, 12:39 AM

QUOTE(ravish @ Oct 6 2008, 10:29 PM)Bharatvarshji and Zanab Hasky Sahab,

I will desist from further postings on religious matters , so that cause of further disturbance in the discussions do not arise.Sorry for the irritation caused by me .
[right][snapback]88852[/snapback][/right]


<img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blow.gif' /> Ravish ji,

"If you are surrounded by those who constatly agree with you, then you're in an intellectual vacuum. If you feel like trying to make a difference, you have to BE different. How can you do that without interacting with those who are different from yourself?"

So, keep up the good work!

10-07-2008, 01:55 AM

QUOTEAssam ethnic clashes toll 49 
Pioneer.com
Syed Zarir Hussain | Guwahati
Violence against illegal immigrants intensifies
Authorities in Assam on Monday said the weekend violence that killed 49 people and injured more than 100 was a systematic ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the National Democratic Front of Bodoland (NDFB), a large Christian rebel group fighting for an independent tribal homeland.Â

"The string of violence in the three districts of Darrang, Udalguri, and Baksa, is not clashes between the tribal Bodos and immigrant Muslims, but a planned ethnic cleansing by the NDFB to drive out all non-Bodos from the area," Assam Government spokesman and Health Minister Himanta Biswa Sarma said.

"We have already arrested four NDFB cadre on Sunday with weapons who were involved in killing a woman and a child in Baksa district. So far 49 people have died since violence broke out on Friday, 15 of them in police firing, and the rest in clashes," the Minister said.

Eight of the injured died in different hospitals, while nine more bodies were recovered from various parts of the violence-hit districts of Udalguri, Darrang, Baksa in northern Assam on Monday.

The fourth district where violence spread was the adjoining district of Chirang


No need for President rule because killers are Christians and state is ruled by Congress Party whose President is Sonia Gandhi is Roman Catholic Christian.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 10-07-2008, 05:08 PM by Husky.)

QUOTE(ravish @ Oct 6 2008, 10:29 PM)Zanab (???) Hasky Sahab[right][snapback]88852[/snapback][/right]Sahab? What's that? Oh, you mean you're in need of rehab. Sorry, no point in appealing to me (assuming you were trying to spell "Husky") - I have no change to send you to where you want to go.

ravish · 10-07-2008, 08:40 PM

Capt Kumar & Virenji,

I do appreciate your standpoint on the various aspects of the problem of tension on communal lines and the conversion issue. Given the ground realities of rural India, I would like to mention that the official machinery in all the States of India with the exception of J&K, Nagaland and Meghalaya are overwhelmingly manned by Hindu officials. It is extremely difficult for any Govt official, how so ever secular he may be to be too aloof from the Hindu religious activities in his or her area. A majority of my countrymen are god fearing humans. Given this advantage, the Hindu religious organisations should have no problem in ensuring the propagation and preservation of the values of Hindus and in ensuring prevention of large scale conversion. One has to accept it is the collective failure on the part of the entire Hindu community that the Christian missionaries are in a position to conduct large scale forcible conversion. Truth is always bitter and I am sure many of my friends will have extreme difficulty in digesting this truth. In conclusion I may add that no political party can survive at the national level only on the basis of the Christian or Muslim vote bank. All have to court the Hindu community at certain stage of their struggle for existence.
Despite all this advantage that the Hindus enjoy in India , what is the reason for the present state of affairs ? Let all of us think and come back.

Shambhu · 10-07-2008, 11:00 PM

October 12, 2008

Think it Over

The logic of conversion
By MSN Menon

Christian citizens in India!
DO you know the logic of conversion? Perhaps you have not thought of it? If you had thought of it, you would not be doing what you are doing.

Conversion has many implications. Fours are most important: 1) your belief that your religion is what you have got from your god and that you are responsible to that god alone, 2) your belief that Christianity is superior to Hinduism, 3) your belief that Christianity redeemed and civilised the pagan world, and 4) your belief that you can one day wipe out Hinduism from India.

You are wrong in all. Remember, you may have made any transaction with your god, but your society is not obliged to honour it. It has its own compulsions.

The Jews made a Covenant with Yahweh, their god, and Yahweh made them the âChosen Peopleâ. Are we supposed to honour it? Not at all.

The issue is not whether the Gospels (Bible) are superior or the Gita is superior. The issue is: whether your closed mind is superior or our open mind is superior. The answer must be obvious to even the meanest intelligence. The Hindu civilisation is built on freedom of thought. It has ranged through the whole gamut of experienceâfrom negation to affirmation. But you remained where you were. Your civilization is built on a closed system of beliefs. You have no Buddha as a dissenter.

We believe that the earth will last for billions of years. Not for thousands, as you once thought. Naturally, the Hindu civilisation is built on that long-term perspective.

So, we keep our minds open. We can change the way we live and think, and yet call ourselves Hindus. Even an atheist is a Hindu. You enjoy no such benefits. You say that your ultimate truths are already in the Gospels. So, even to say that you are on a quest, as we are, for the truth is blasphemy to you. You Christians cannot change your basic beliefs, for to depart from the Bible is apostasy. Death was once the punishment for it. So you are condemned to live a repetitive life till the end of the earth. You have to live with your Gospels. And Muslims will continue to live with their Koran, and do namaaz five times a day till the end of the earth.

Thank God, the Hindu can live the way he wants. And he can think the way he wants. He can look afresh at all that had been said by his ancestors and opt for what he wants to believe. Or he can reconstruct his religion on the basis of this latest knowledge of science. Science can never over-turn him, for he never opposed it. What is more, he can die in the belief that he has done his bit to promote Godâs design on earth.

There is much that we have to know. For instance: 1) from where did we all come?, 2) what are we here for? and 3) where do we go at the end? You say the answers are in your scriptures. They are âfairy talesâ, says George Bernard Shaw. The Hindus have done more thinking on these matters than anybody else. Of course, Christians and Muslims are at liberty to live with their fairy tales. But we Hindus have been thinkers through the millennia. Yes, till the foreign invaders put a stop to our thinking. We must catch up. We must overtake. We must lead.

Dear Readers, we have lost a thousand years. We cannot afford to lose more years in futile disputes with our minorities. They are not with us on this journey. They are in their chapels with their holy books. But we are with the cosmic process.

It is unfortunate, we Hindus are no more sovereign in our own land. There are limits to what we can do. For instance, we cannot write our own history. We cannot ignore the presence of the minorities. But the Christians and Muslims are facing the same situation. They too cannot have their way in this country. It is a mouse-trap in which we are caught.

Christians and Muslims!
Should we live in this trap forever? Should we kill each other in the hope of having the final victory? In the hope of eliminating each other? If we are an intelligent peopleâthat we areâwe should prepare the framework of a new society in which we all can be happy and prosperous.

But you have only one thought: how to increase your population rapidly. But society is not obliged to look after the needs of unwanted children.

Remember, in the new society, we want to create, conversion will have no place, for conversion leads to enmity. We must give it up for ever. Exceptions can be permitted.

India has the capacity and the opportunity to show that it can create a new way of life, which can be a model for all mankind. Can we rise to the occasion?

Or, do the minorities want to keep to the route they had taken? History has given us the chance to create a new model of society. Do we want to seize it? Or do we want to throw away that opportunity?

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