Vedanta - Discussion Forum I (introductory))

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Kapilaranya (California?)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Sunderji,

I guess i know where you got that from. Is'nt California, a spanish name? Maybe the spanish California is from Kapilaranya!

Another question to you, which had bugged me during my initial days, if Gnana (knowing what you really are ) is what you need and Bhakthi is the tool, then why why did Adi Shankaracharya (the realized soul) insist on Bhakthi through his various works?

Or in other words, where do you see Bhakthi ? - Does Gnana leads to Bhakthi or vice versa or both are one and the same (as told by Rajaji in his introduction to Bhaja Govindam?)

Gangajalji,

Thanks for the info about Ramakrishna Advaita and i guess it explains the references to the three great philosophies at equal lengths in the Bhagavat Gita

But a rhetorical question, does Ramakrishna's concept still remain as Advaita, when it accepts Dvaita and Vishisadvaita? i.e. If all are valid from their respective standpoints (the level from which you look at it), ===> it is standpoint dependent , and how can truth be dependent on a standpoint?

What is Kevala advaita- Does it say jeevatma = paratma and it does not accepts the relevance of Dvaitic and Vishtadvaitic concepts? . If you are Brahman, why do you need to worship Brahman sort of a thing and Where does Adi Shankara's philoshophy fall under. My understanding was even Adi Shankaras concept is the same as Ramakrishna's with respect to accepting Dvaitic and Vishtadvatic relevance at a relative standpoint thouh at a absolute standpoint, it is advaita?

Just penned whatever came in my mind without organizing th questions and sorry for that.

[Sunder]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I guess i know where you got that from. Is'nt California, a spanish name? Maybe the spanish California is from Kapilaranya!<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sridhar ji, That is a tongue-in-cheek reference to Paramacharya of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam (Sri Chandrashekarendra Saraswathi Swamigal) who once mused about it. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> I take it only in lighter vein, and do not actually subscribe to the theory of Sagara Putras digging thru the earth's core <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Another question to you, which had bugged me during my initial days, if Gnana (knowing what you really are ) is what you need and Bhakthi is the tool, then why why did Adi Shankaracharya (the realized soul) insist on Bhakthi through his various works?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Bhakthi and Gnana are two approaches to the same goal. Gnana is the top-down approach, while Bhakthi is the bottom-up approach. Let's take for example that The Paramatman is the Ocean, and the jivatman (which is a reflection of Brahman on Avidya) is the drop of water.

A Bhaktha first thinks of himself as the individual ego (water drop) and says "Oh Lord. You are the Grand Ocean, and I am but merely a tiny drop in you. Please allow me to merge with you (Sayujya padam)." Saying thus, the tiny drop merges into the Ocean and loses it's identity.

A Gnani on the other hand, is like the Ocean Identifying itself, and thus even though it sees many rain drops, it knows that the drops are very much a part of ITSELF. Here too, the ego is lost.

Both approaches end in the destruction of the individual identity. When Sri Shankaracharya insists on Bhakthi, he did what any TRUE teacher would do.. It is not easy for the Vishva (Jeevatma in waking state) to give up body consciousness. For them, Bhakthi is appropriate for a Dehi (body-conscious individual) who wants to give up the ego, while for a Gnani no such restrictions exist.. Those who opt for Gnana marga are not gnanis per se, but only Practitioners.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Does Gnana leads to Bhakthi or vice versa or both are one and the same (as told by Rajaji in his introduction to Bhaja Govindam?)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had spent some time on this, and it always made me smile. Avidya is what caused the Cosmos, and in this Cosmos caused by Avidya, it is only with the help of Maya and Sri Vidya that we become aware of the Real Nature. So, I think it is only Bhavagat Krupa (Her Unending Compassion - Niravadhya Karuna) that leads to either Gnana or Bhakthi. I do not know of any other Source that can plant the seeds of Bhakthi or Gnana in an Maha-agnani like me.

[Guest]

The trial of Adi Shankara

[Sunder]

Concepts of Vedanta.

(Site design could have been better, but the contents are quite good.)

[Sunder]

DEVOTION AND THE NATURE OF IGNORANCE

Patrick: Can devotion lead to discrimination as, for example, with the Gopis of Krishna?

SWAMIJI: Discrimination comes first, devotion and surrender afterwards. Without discrimination there can't be devotion. Devotion is only to that which is ultimately real, and how will you know what is real without discrimination? So discrimination precedes devotion. Unless you know what is real, how will you have devotion to it? The Gopis knew what was ultimately real; therefore, they had devotion to Krishna and considered Krishna as ultimately real. Otherwise, they would have hugged something else.

An American Visitor: Does the eradication of ignorance give birth to intuitive understanding or awakened knowledge, or does intuitive understanding itself need to be cultivated?

SWAMIJI: When ignorance is removed, there is nothing more to be done. Everything is clear, like daylight. Ignorance is like night; when it passes, you are in the daylight of enlightenment. There is nothing more to be done. After ignorance goes, there is no action. Everything is complete, because what you are seeking is enlightenment, and that is equivalent to the abolition of ignorance. So, ignorance goes, and there are no problems afterwards. It is ignorance that is the obstacle for everything. When that goes, then all obstacles also go simultaneously.

Visitor: Can ignorance be eradicated by ceasing to respond in ignorant ways?

SWAMIJI: Ignorance cannot be removed by ignorance. It will be like a thief becoming a friend of another thief. Ignorance can be removed only by knowledge. Some people say there are degrees of ignorance: gross ignorance, like tamas; light ignorance like rajas; and transparent ignorance like sattva. So, the transparent ignorance, though it is also a kind of ignorance, may enable the seeker to get rid of the lower ignorances of the rajasik and tamasik types. So, from that point of view, you may say ignorance can remove ignorance.

Teachers and students are both human beings, yet the student differs from the teacher in the degree of his comprehension. Likewise, though there are stages of ignorance, the higher form of ignorance may help the seeker to eliminate the lower forms. When that function is performed, the higher ignorance also drops.

They generally give the example of a nut called "soap nut." It is a nut growing in a tree which is used for washing clothes in India. Even now it is available in the market. When you rub it, a froth comes out, just as froth comes from soap. This soap nut removes the dirt of the cloth, and afterwards settles down. Soap nut is also a kind of dirt because it is a sediment, but it does not stick to the cloth; it removes the dirt from the cloth, and then settles down. So likewise, the higher ignorance which is sattvik in nature can remove the lower one which is rajasik and tamasik, then itself settles down.

Sometimes when a thorn has gone into the foot, you remove that thorn with the help of another thorn, like a needle. Both are thorns only, but one thorn helps the removal of another thorn. So, likewise, one type of ignorance may help the removal of another type of ignorance. In that sense, you are right that ignorance can help ignorance.

[Guest]

Sunderji, Thanks for the explanation and the link. Regarding the Kanchi Paramacharya's reference to Kapilaranya, i still remember reading that in Deivathin Kural (when it came as a series of booklets called Arul urai, by the publishers of Aananda Vigatan in early 90s). In 2002 i read it again at the Kamakoti site and posted the same on BR.


Got the following via email from my Guru.

********************************************************************
CHATHURSHLOKI BAGAVATHAM

COMMENTARY
Om! Rama Krishna Hari!

Poornamadah Purnamidam Purnat Purnamudachyate
Purnasya Purnamadaya Purnameba Vashishyate

Om Shanthi! Om Shanthi! Om Shanthi!

What is shloka?

What is a shloka? ‘Sah’ means That. ‘Loka’ means world. Shloka means ‘That World’. There are seven lokas. They are i) Bhuh ii) Bhubah iii) Swah iv) Janah v) Mahah, vi) Tapah and vii) Satya. Satya Loka is the highest Loka – Loka of Ultimate Truth. A shloka deports one to a different Loka commensurate with its potency. Chathur Shloki Bhagavatam is so potent that it can directly hurtle one to the Satya Loka and that is “World Of Truth”. It is the master key to the world of Satya Loka. Each Shloka talks about a particular tattva of paramount spiritual essence.

1. Bramha Tattva - First Shloka is the master key to the essence of the Truth, Bramhan.

Aham eva asam evagre nanyath yatha sat asat param
Pashchat aham yatha etat cha yah avashishyetha sah asmi aham (1)

Aham – I, Eva – only, Asam – exist, Eva – certainly, Agre – in the beginning (before creation), Na Anyath – nothing else, Aham – I (am), Yatha – like, Etat – all these (creation), Sat – real, Asat – unreal, Cha – and, Param –Supreme, Paschat – afterwards (after dissolution), Yah – whatever, Avashishyetha – remains, Sah – That, Asmi – am, Aham – I.

“Certainly I only exist in the beginning, nothing else. I am like all these creation comprising Sat, Asat, and Param. I am also That, whatever remains afterwards.”

Before, after and during the Creation, I only existed. Just like the waves emerge and merge in the ocean, the entire universe emerges from Me and again dissolves into Me.

Sat, Asat and Param.

What is Param?
Param is the Truth – Niranjan (untainted), Nirmal (Pure), and Nirantar (undifferentiated). Param is Existance beyond existence and nonexistence. Param is Light beyond light and darkness. Param is Bliss beyond pain and pleasure. Param is Niranjan, Nirmal, Nirantar - The One and the Only one.

What is Sat? It is appearance of Truth. All that appears as Truth is Sat.

What is Asat? It is appearance of that which is not Truth. All that is unreal is Asat. All that is illusory is Asat. Now let us discuss an Example so that one can understand easily:

Imagine that it is a full Moon Day. It is night time. There is no wind and there is no sound. Total calmness prevails. There is a lake. There is no ripple in it. Then the Moon will get reflected with all its majesty in it. In its full glory as it is. But as soon as it is dawn, just before the sun rise there is gush of wind. The lake is now full of ripples. At that time, will the Moon get reflected in the lake water as it is? It won’t. It will be distorted. It will be fragmented. Now one can only see the pieces of illuminations, flashes of light here and there.

So also when one’s intellect is full of peace and serenity, one can experience the Truth reflected majestically in it with its entire splendor. Otherwise, there is a lot of distortion. There is a lot of fragmentation. What is reflected is multitude of names and forms. This is the JAGAT.

‘Sat’ is like reflection of the Moon as it is in the lake without any distortion. ‘Asat’ is like the distorted reflection of the Moon. ‘Param’ is the Moon itself in this example. Truth reflects in a pure and calm intellect as ‘Sat’, whereas in a disturbed intellect as ‘Asat’. Only way to experience Truth is to purify the intellect by calming the mind. As long as the movie is continuing, one does not experience the Light, though all the moving pictures on the screen are Light only. Once the movie stops, the screen is flooded with Light and only Light.

2. Maya Tattva – this is the key to the essence of Illusory power of the Lord.
We shall go deep into it. Maya is nothing but Lord’s Illusory power. Just as the turbulent current in the ocean produces waves in the ocean with the influence of sound and light, so also Maya produces various Names and Forms which is the Jagat.

Rte artham yath prateeyeta na prateeyeta cha atmani
Tat vidyat atmano maayam yatha abhaso yatha tamah (2)

Rte – without (lacking), Artham – real meaning (essence), Yat – whatever, Prateeyeta – appears, Na prateeyeta – does not appear, Cha – and, Atmani – of Truth, Tat – That, Vidyat – (you) know, Atmano – Truth’s, Maayam – Illusory power, Yatha – like, Abhaso – reflection, Yatha Tamah – out of Ignorance.

“Whatever appears lacking the real essence does not appear as the Truth. And (this) you know (for certain), that (unreal) appears (due to) My Illusory Power like reflection (of light rays) out of ignorance (appearing as an illusory image)”

When somebody asks you “What is Rose?” You may say “Rose is a flower.” On further enquiry you may say “Rose is a color.”, “Rose is a color among so many colors.”

But this is not correct. All these are your interpretations, your own views. They can be different for different people. Rose can be devotion for a devotee. It can be a token of Love for a Lover. It can be an object of art for an artist. It is named as Rose in English language, whereas it called as Gulab in Hindi language. It brings memories of joy in some minds, whereas it may bring memories of grief for some others. The word rose brings different interpretations and different feelings in different people. It varies from mind to mind. Now I will give you another example. Darkness means fear for a child. It is profit for a thief. It is romance for a young couple. Also it is time to rest and relax for tired laborers. For different people it has different contextual meanings.

Everything gets jumbled up due to effects of Lord’s Illusory power Maaya. There are three aspects of everything – ‘Artha’, ‘Sabda’ and ‘Gyana’. ‘Artha’ is the essence – true meaning. ‘Sabda’ is the sound identifying the thing, naming the thing, thus limiting it to just a sound. It is linguistic representation of that particular thing. ‘Gyana’ is psychological. It is interpretation of the thing as per earlier individual experience of the thing by that particular person.

In the earlier example, rose blooming in the garden is ‘Artha’, whereas the word ‘r o s e’ is ‘Sabda’ just the phonetics. The idea of rose in the mind and its associated stored experience is ‘Gyana’. Darkness in a room devoid of any light is ‘Artha’. The phonetics ‘d a r k n e s s’ is ‘Sabda’. The mental concept of darkness with its associated experience and feelings is ‘Gyana’

Maya is having two powers called as ‘Avarana Shakti’ - the veiling aspect, and ‘Vikshepa Shakti’ - the superimposition aspect. Veiling aspect hides the true thing. Superimposing aspect dresses the thing with a false notion. ‘Sabda’ veils ‘Artha’ and ‘Gyana’ superimposes a falsity into ‘Sabda’. It is like a serpent is experienced in stead of a rope. Or a ghost is experienced in stead of a post. Or nacre shines as Silver. ‘Artha’ is ‘Param’, ‘Sabda’ is ‘Sat’, and ‘Gyana’ is ‘Asat’. Mixing of these three ‘Artha’, ‘Sabda’, and ‘Gyana’ create the confusing illusion of Individual realities.

Since people have different interpretations according to their own understanding, they get attached to their own illusory knowledge. They start claiming whatever they say is correct. That is how fanaticism comes into existence. All the world’s miseries are due to political and religious fanaticism.

Saivites and Vishnavites fight with each other even though they both are spiritual seekers having the same aim of God-realization. Even in Islam there are different faiths as Sihas and Sunnis. It is just because there is clash of their respective faiths. This is nothing but their respective bundle of opinions and judgments out of confusion in understanding due to admixture of ‘Artha’, ‘Sabda’ and ‘Gyana’. Won’t it be better World to live, if people stop fighting over something which is itself out of misapprehension? Out of misunderstanding? Out of illusion? Won’t this clarity make World full of Love and Peace?

Maya is the dynamic aspect of Bramhan, like current in the Ocean. The cause Ocean, the instrument current, and the effect waves are one and the same Ocean. There is no difference. Similarly the Truth as potency, Maaya as its dynamic aspect, and the resulting Jagat are all one and the same – The One Truth.

Maaya by its veiling and superimposition powers creates the illusory Jagat as so many names and forms. Jagat is like a mirage. The Sun rays in a desert, while passing through layers of air of different density create an illusion of a lake due to interference of refracted rays. But it is just a mirage. As you go near it, it recedes farther and appears again at some distance. Like that out of ignorance, the entire Jagat is created by interference of rays of Bramhan refracted in the impure individual Intellects. Maya is ‘sat’, but Jagat is ‘asat’, whereas ‘Param’ is ‘Artha’ - the TRUTH.

Artha Matra Nirbhasham, Swarupe Shunyamivam Samadhim.

When the Truth (‘artha’) shines, the self image (consisting ‘sabda’ and ‘gyana’) being void, that is Samadhi.

3. Jagat Tattva – this is the third key to essence of Jagat, the effect of Lord’s Illusory Power.

Yatha mahaanthi bhutani bhuteshu uccha avachesuh anu
Pravisthani apravisthani tatha thesu na theshu aham (3)

‘Yatha’ – like, ‘Mahanti’ – Primary, ‘Bhutani’ – elements, ‘Bhuteshu Uccha’ – huge material, ‘Avachesuh Anu’ – miniscule atom, ‘Pravisthani’ – enter (to give shape), ‘Apravisthani’ – do not enter (to maintain void), ‘Tatha’– like that, ‘Thesu’– in them, ‘Na Thesu’– in not them, ‘Aham’- I

“Just as the (five) primary elements (Pancha Mahabhutas) constitute small atoms to gigantic materials by entering it and (also constitute the void between the materials) by not entering it, like that I am in them (in the primary elements) and in not them (out side them also).”

Brahman is the only essence which is really in existence. The Jagat is formed due to the playing of this Brahman essence at various levels. The vibration of this Bramhan essence at different frequencies and amplitudes forms first the five Tanmatras like Sabda (sound), Spharsa (touch), Rupa (form), Rasa (taste) and Gandha (smell). Again due to the various permutations and combinations of these five Tanmatras, five Mahaboothas (primary elements) like Akasa (Space), Vayu (Air), Agni (Fire), Jala (Water), and Prithvi (Earth) came into existence. These Pancha Mahabhutas exist everywhere whether it is in a small atom or a huge Mountain. The five primary elements combine and coexist as follows by a process called quantification:

What is Space? Space consists of 50% Sabda and remaining Tanmatras 12.5% each

What is air? Air consists 50% of Touch, and the remaining Tanmatras 12.5% each.

What is Fire? Fire consists of 50% of Form and remaining Tanmatras 12.5% each.

What is water? Water consists of 50% of Taste and remaining Tanmatras 12.5 % each.

What is Earth? Earth consists of 50% smell and remaining Tanmatras 12.5 % each.

Param is the subtlest. Param can be anywhere. Inside everything and also outside. These Mahabhootas can exist in all materials and also in the gap between these materials. That is everywhere. Similarly the Lord is inside the primary elements and also outside them.

These primary elements are progressively gross. That means water can seep into earth, fire can seep into both water and earth, air can seep into the earlier three, whereas space can seep into all the four. But Lord being the subtlest can seep into all of them. Lord is the substratum for all these like a screen acting as background for painting. The screen is there behind the paint as well as behind where it is not painted. Or like the mirror is there behind the reflection of the face and also behind where there is no reflection of the face. Similarly Lord is there in everything and outside everything. Lord is all pervasive and all permeating.

Just like various scenes appear in the same screen and then the screen remains as screen only, Lord remains as screen and on Him everything appears. Like ocean, waves, foam etc., are the same water whereas appearance of waves and foams are apparent and transitory. So also everything is one and the same Brahman and everything that appears as names and forms are just apparent and transitory.

4. Jignasu Tattva – This is the essence of all sadhana required to attain the Lord.

What is meant by Jignasu? Jignasu is the one who is earnestly interested in the real knowledge or true knowledge about the Truth.

Etavat eva Jignasyam tattva jignasunath atmanah
Anvaya Vyathirekabhyam yat syat sarvatra sarvada (4)

‘Etavat’ – up to now, ‘Eva’ – certainly, ‘Jignasyam’ – is to be enquired (of Truth), ‘Tattva’ – essence, ‘Jignsunath’ – by the seekers (of Truth), ‘Atmanah’ – Truth, ‘Anvaya’ – positive induction (attraction), ‘Vyatireka’ – negative induction (repulsion), ‘Bhyam’ – both, ‘Yat Syat’ – whatever it maybe (under all circumstances), ‘Sarvatra’ – everywhere, ‘Sarvada’ – always.

“Certainly up to now the essence of Truth (as in the earlier three shlokas) is to be enquired by the seekers (of Truth) by adopting both attraction (to Bramhan by dwelling in it) and repulsion (from Jagat by forgetting it) always, everywhere and under all circumstances.”

What has been told in the earlier three shlokas, one has to dwell upon it all the time using the two techniques called Anvaya and Vyatireka. Anvaya means attraction like a magnet induces magnetism in magnetic material and attracts it. That is magnet magnetizes Iron and attracts it. Vyatireka means indifference like a magnet does not induce magnetism into non-magnetic material and thus ignores it. That is magnet does not magnetize wood and ignores it. Like that one need to constantly remember the Truth and dwell in the Truth. Be a magnet to the Truth. At the same time constantly ignore and forget the Jagat and all other unreal illusory things like the magnet rejects the wood. This needs to be done constantly and continuously in all places, in all circumstances and all the time.

Like the magnet that attracts the magnetic material and it ignores nonmagnetic material, you too should reject the unreal ‘Asat’ around you and abide in TRUTH all the time. This process is the real Sadhana. For example, whenever you see a tree, you see the TRUE ESSENCE, Brahman, ‘Artha’ in it. Reject the word ‘t r e e ‘ the phonetic sound associated with it (‘sabda’) and also the mental conceptions formed in the mind about it (‘gnana’). Like a Rajahansa separating milk from water, you need to sift out ‘Artha’ from ‘Sabda’, and ‘Gyana’. Only those who constantly practice these techniques and imbibe essence of this Chathur Shloki are entitled for further Para Knowledge.

Rama Krishna Hari!
Hari Om Tat Sat!!
*******************************************************************

[Sunder]

Excellent one Sridharji. I haven't read this Chathusshloki Bhagavatham before, and it was definitely a treat.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->There are seven lokas. They are i) Bhuh ii) Bhubah iii) Swah iv) Janah v) Mahah, vi) Tapah and vii) Satya.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

While I was reading this portion, I was reminded of a lecture our local group attended by a Swamiji from Chinmaya Mission who was visiting Canada last month. In the due course of the lecture he mentioned about the 14 lokas (which are Satya Loka, Tapo loka, Janaloka, Maharloka, Suvarloka, Buvarloka, Bhuloka, Atala, Vithala, Suthala, Talaathala, Rasaathala, Mahaathala, and Paathala in descending order.) While explaining the seven lokas above he mentioned that Bhuloka was this earth, Bhuvarloka was above the Sun, Suvarloka was above the polestar etc. A friend of mine, asked if this was actually physical locations or just metaphors that really did not exist.. Later, when comparing notes after the lecture, some argued that it REALLY existed - as it was mentioned in the puranas, while others called it humbug. (I am sure this is one of the famous doubts that 'intellectuals' often get.) I took a shot at it, and explained my understanding of the LOKA models in layperson terms. Hope it makes sense.

Most of us are aware of the famous OSI Model which makes communication between hetrogenous machines possible.

OSI Model here: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/classes/a338/ima...osi_headers.gif

The Model begins with the physical layer which rests on the physical link that's "visible and tangible" to everyone. Then comes more subtler layers which are neither "real", nor "mythical metaphors" but purely concepts that can be explained as layers to make it easier to understand. If someone says, the data-link layer is 2 inches above the physical layer, and that the transport layer is 4 inches above the datalink and so on it would be laughable. These are neither "above" nor "below" anything. Thus, I can only show you the physical cable that connects two computers but cannot pinpoint to the different layers around the layers even if I take a magnification lens and search till end of eternity.

Extending on this simile, when two "applications" need to talk, it cannot directly do so. An application will send it's 'thoughts' to the lower layer, till it hits the physical level. Once it reaches the physical level it is conveyed "up the chain" by the other 'computer' and when the message reaches the other application and acknowledgement is done, the process is said to be complete.

In our case, the TOP level application is the same. An idea arises in the PARA, and this is conveyed via Pratyag, Madyama and Vaikhari (audible sound, produced by VAKH - the organ of action.) This sound waves travel via a medium (Space), till it is picked up by the physical layer (eardrums), conveyed to the sense organ (shravana indriya), this is conveyed to the manas, then to buddhi, then to ahamkara and finally to the Consciousness. IF any one of the links is missing (i.e. my sound does not reach you, or you cannot interpret the sound I make, or your mind is 'elsewhere' or you are unconscious) then the communication is incomplete.

The whole exercise of Advaita is to alienate the seven layers, fourteen lokas, five bhuthas, three kaalas, three gunas, three shariras, five koshas, twenty four thattvas, and whatever else is not that ONE. Then and only then will you become THE ONE.


Back to your example:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->‘Param’ is the Moon itself in this example. Truth reflects in a pure and calm intellect as ‘Sat’, whereas in a disturbed intellect as ‘Asat’.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Here I have a clarification to make. According to Swami Vidyaranya's Panchadasi (Chapter 1), Maya is Shuddha-satva (Pure Sattva), and Avidya is impure sattva (i.e. Sattva mixed with Rajas and Thamas.) Now, the reflection of Brahman in Maya (Pure Sattva) is called EESHVARA, and the reflection of the very same Brahman in Avidya is called the JIVA. The difference is that, Eeshwara perfectly and completely controls Maya, while Jeeva is IN the control of Avidya. The former is the controller, while the latter is the controlled.

In the example of the moon, I am assuming it means the Brahman when reflected in a calm intellect is Sat (Eeshwara?) and in a turbulent mind is Asat (Jeeva?). Am I even close on my assumption.?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->According to Swami Vidyaranya's Panchadasi (Chapter 1), Maya is Shuddha-satva (Pure Sattva), and Avidya is impure sattva (i.e. Sattva mixed with Rajas and Thamas.) Now, the reflection of Brahman in Maya (Pure Sattva) is called EESHVARA, and the reflection of the very same Brahman in Avidya is called the JIVA. The difference is that, Eeshwara perfectly and completely controls Maya, while Jeeva is IN the control of Avidya. The former is the controller, while the latter is the controlled.

In the example of the moon, I am assuming it means the Brahman when reflected in a calm intellect is Sat (Eeshwara?) and in a turbulent mind is Asat (Jeeva?). Am I even close on my assumption.?

<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Sunderji,
Though i cannot answer whether you are close with your assumption. But i will try to answer from what i had heard from my Guru last year, which incidentally is very similar to your reference to Panchadasi.


I will try to roughly translate what he had told me in Tamil. Certain things could be lost in translation as well as my forgetfullness.

[Brain dump]
He had said that Eswara is the manifestation/ reflection of the Brahman in the Mayic domain, and even Jeeva is a reflection. But it is a impure one as it is clouded by Avidya.

The whole domain of maya can be split into several layers /planes similar to the ISO OSI layers (thanks to your analogy). Eswara lies in the higher planes while the jeeva is in the lower plane. Jeeva is controlled by Maya on account of its association with avidya, whereas Eswara controls Maya. Through Bakthi and renouniciation, jeeva gets disassociated from Avidya and thereby the influence of maya on it reduces. As the jeeva rises up to the higher planes of maya, the influence of maya reduces similar to air pressure reducing at higher altitudes. When the entire avidya vanishes, the jeeva identifies himself with Eswara and this stage is called Moksha. At this stage the jeeva identifies Eswara as the reflection of the Brahman, but not Brahman yet. Even at this stage, the jeeva is still in Maya though not controlled by it. When the jeeva completely comes out of the mayic domain, it attains mukthi and then it is no longer Jeeva.

Radha-Kalyanam signifies this union where Krishna signifies the Brahman while Radha signfies a Jeeva in Maya. In Radha Kalyanam, Radhe loses her identity and becomes one with Krishna, then there is no Radha and hence no Maya. That is why Krishna never meets Radha after his days in Brindhavan as she is no longer a seperate entity.

[/Brain Dump]
I may have even quoted him completely out of context, but at least i have tried my best.

[Guest]

Sunder guroo,

I have started reading up a little bit every day and I am practically going nuts. <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo--> I try to read only a little every day so i can digest it better. Not sure if i am doing this right. But some very basic questions. I write these down for myself to reflect on later so cant really say at what point the actual questions came up. Anyway here goes ..

1. Is mind part of the person or self ?

2. Who realises - person or self ? Self cannot realize self and person cannot realise self since at the time of realization the person wont exist ? Unless if there is a third entity besides a person and self (mind, internal organ, lets say) but then what is that third entity - is that real or unreal ? Moreover if the effect (the person) is but just self then how can self realise self ?

3. If one doesnt realise then one still remains Brahman and if one doesnt realise one still remains Brahman then why should one realise ? For if one doesnt realise the sufferings that happen are also not real then why try to eradicate something that is not real ? The avidya which is beginningless is going to remain regardless, right ? Then why remove avidya ?

Am I even on the right track boss ?? <!--emo&:unsure:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='unsure.gif' /><!--endemo-->

[Guest]

Got it via email from my Guru I have posted in the other thread. Some of the philosphy is relevant here too. Hence cross posted it.

*********************************************************************
ESSENCE OF DOING PADAPUJA


"Rama! Krishna!! Hari!!!"


"So have you contemplated on Padapuja? What is it that you have understood?"


'It is a symbol of our complete surrender to our Guru.'

"So what will you get by doing it?"

Our ego will be destroyed and we can get Gnana.

"Good! Why do you worship the feet? Why not eyes, nose or any other part of the body? Even the mind or heart?"

'We cannot see a Gnani eye to eye. We worship the feet since they help us in reaching our destination whenever we want to go anywhere. It helps us in meeting our goals of life.'

"Yes, the feet are used as tool to reach the destination. Here it represents for reaching the Ultimate destination, meeting the Ultimate purpose of life. How do you do Pada puja?"

'We carry a lamp in procession and then see the Guru Padukas with the help of the light of the lamp as a symbol of removing our agnana, the darkness.'

"Yes. Guru helps us to remove our agnana and shows us the right path and the light to reach our true destination. 'Gu' stands for showing Light. 'Ru' stands for removing darkness. He makes you to bring Light in form of your attention from outside to inside. So that's what you do. You go in a procession with a light to all other places, but finally come back near the padukas. In Samsar also you touch the feet of your elders to show your respect to them since they train you, coach you and guide you. They show you the steps. Then what do you do?"

'We perform abhisheka to the padukas. First ahbisheka is performed to padukas using milk followed by curd, panchamritam, fruit juice, sandal paste, vibhuthi etc., then the padukas are decorated with Sandal Paste, kumkum and Garlands of flowers. Then archana with 108 names of Guru is done. Then we offer Dhoopa, Deepa, Naivedyam, Karpoor (Camphor) Arathi and Pushpanjali.'

"Good! Why do we use milk first? Do you know? Milk is the essence even though it has water as substrate. By offering milk, we acknowledge this fact that milk is separate from water. It is a symbolic act representing use of Vivek, one's ability to discern and discriminate the real from unreal, truth from illusion. Next what? "

Next curd is used.'

What is curd?"


'Curd is milk in coagulated form. By churning it one can obtain butter.'


"Yes. Curd is a different appearance of milk. Milk becomes curd, butter and ghee. Similarly water becomes ice and steam. Water also appears as wave and foam. So these appearances keep on changing. One need to investigate what is the common denominator amidst the manifold appearances? By offering curd, we are reminded of That Unchanging amidst changes. That is PARAM, the TRUTH. What is next?"

'Panchamrita is used next.'

"Yes. Amrita is used for what?"

'Amrita is used for attaining Immortality.'

"Immortality of what?"

'It is for the sustenance of life in the physical body.'

"Yes you are right. It represents sustenance of functioning of five sense organs - indriyas. By doing Panchamrita Abhisheka one is reminded that the experiences felt by these five indriyas are not true but they are illusory and unreal. Whatever you see through your inner eyes as vision they are also not true. Next what?"

'We offer fruit or lemon juice, cocoanut water.'

"Yes. Honey also is used. Basically honey is juice of various flowers. The way lemon juice is juice of lemon, fruit juice is juice of respective fruit, and coconut water is juice of coconut. Similarly mind is the primary sense and is juice of the other five senses. One has to understand from this that even the experiences of mind are admixture of sensory experiences obtained in the past, at present or that anticipated in the future. So these experiences are equally illusory and hence unreal. Next what?"

'Sandal Paste.'

"What does it indicate?"

'Fragrance.'

"Along with fragrance there is a golden hue. Is it not?"

'Yes.'

"But this golden hue represents reflected light, reflected through Chitta. When the light is reflected through the chitta which is not pure, then the reflected light is also contaminated and not pure light. So that colored hue after reflection is not real. It is like an image reflected in a mirror which is not real but just an image. Similarly the fragrance that you experience through your nose is also reflected one and is not real. In the higher stage of silence, one experiences Divine visions and Divine fragrances. These too are noble imprints of past life reflecting from the inner layers of Chitta, once the gross impure layers of Chitta get purified. But these Siddhis are also equally unreal and need to be discarded. Next what?"

'We use Vibhuti next.'

"Yes. Vibhuti is white. When there is no taint of any color, you get white radiation. White represents pure sattva devoid of Rajas and Tamas. Then True Light is reflected as it is with no distortion. The white color is due to the reflector. This reflector also has to be ultimately dropped off. In final act of abhisheka, we wash out the bibhuti also. Is not it? Then what is left out is the padukas as they ARE without any taint or impurity. They are left in pure and pristine state, with a hue of COLORLESS COLOR."

"Then you offer dhupa, deepa, and karpur. It represents evolving stages of a devotee. First he is in a gross state like an incense stick. Even being lit by Guru (match stick), the flame shuts off immediately due to grossness. But it keeps on burning and in the process converts itself into ashes and fragrance. This is the stage of discernment, discriminating real from unreal."

"Burnt by the fire of discrimination, the devotee transforms himself into a wick in the lamp. His stock of contemplative devotion is like oil. Now when Guru lights the lamp, it keeps on burning as long as oil is there. The wick is more subtle than oil but it needs continuous pouring of oil in form of devotion."


"Then in the third stage, the devotee transforms himself into a piece of camphor. Now when Guru lights him, it catches fire immediately and after offering light vanishes along with the fire. This is the stage when there is no trace of grossness (EGO) in the devotee. It transforms itself into a potential spark of a match stick. Now it has merged into the status of the Guru and can light other incense sticks, wicks, and camphor slabs."


"Now I will tell you deeper meaning behind padukas. Have you ever traveled in a train?"

'Yes.'


"What do you see outside through the window while traveling?"

'We see that the external objects are moving and we are static in one place, even though we are moving and the external objects are stationary.'

"Good! Similarly you feel that the ground is static and you are moving from one place to another place due to the effects of Maya. Have you ever thought that it is the earth which is moving at great speed and not you?"


'No.'


"You are There where you are. Understanding this is Jivan Mukti."


"Whenever you want to go to any place, either you walk or go by train/bus/ air-plane. You make all sorts of effort and use all sorts of vehicles to reach the destination. You are restless till you reach your desired destination."


"But once you reach your home, the tension melts away and you are so relaxed. You do not take any psychological burden and effort whether you sit or walk or do anything when you are inside your home. Is it not? Though you are doing something or other, still you do not feel the burden of any effort. Because you feel that you have reached home and you are in a safe and secured state. Others who are watching you may feel that still you are active and taking great effort in carrying out various domestic chores. But you don't feel so. You get a feel of 'inaction in action', without undue psychological burden.

This psychological detachment is True Sannyasa, not the outward show. Pada puja done with true understanding and bhava leads to True Sannyasa and ultimately to Jivan Mukti."

"It is like a bud blossoming into a fragrant flower. Is there any effort or any struggle on the part of the bud for this blossoming? No, is not it? Because it knows that the tree with which it is connected is supporting it with life force. It just surrenders to the tree and lives a spontaneous life of no expectation. A bud never aspires to be the most beautiful or most fragrant flower. It does not aspire that the most handsome butterfly comes in its life. Under the care of the tree, it is not bothered and so it is not affected by storm or heat of the Sun or rain. But others think that it takes lot of efforts on the part of the bud to burst into a flower."


"So also while doing Pada Puja externally using various items, you have to think internally the symbolic meaning behind each step and thus by going deep and deep inside, you can establish the connection with the Life Force of TRUTH and that is Jeevan Mukti."


"Jeevan Muktas do everything spontaneously without taking any effort. Once you attain this state, then you can do everything effortlessly. They have reached their Home. It does not matter for them either to do or not do. They transcend both action and inaction. Here the Padukas represent the Absolute. You are in your Real Home and so no struggle or striving is required to go anywhere. Feet remain static and that is why feet are worshipped in Pada Puja. You have surrendered and your padukas are entrenched in the TRUTH. You need to understand this. It is the essence behind doing Pada Puja. So you need to do Pada Puja with proper understanding, instead of doing it as a mechanical ritual. Then only it will help you for your spiritual progress and evolution."

"Om Namo Narayanaya!"

***************************************************************************

[Sunder]

Hello Rajesh ji, I am very happy to hear that you have begun your Swadyaya (study of the Self.) Initially, the concepts will be a bit confusing. This is mainly because we are not exposed to the terminilogy in the translations (or int he original scriptures) in our day-to-day life. But by constant reading, listening, and reflecting on the meaning, it will dawn upon you in due course of time. I try and spend 4 hours a day or about 30 hours a week on Atma Vichara (as I have nothing better to do.) From you posts, I gather that you have already watched the Ramayana and the Mahabaratha. (I think I had posted this link a while ago, yet) If you feel like reading the epics in english check out http://www.switzerinstrument.com/Rajaji-Original/ for Ramayana and Mahabaratha.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> 1. Is mind part of the person or self ? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The mind is not the person. The manomaya kosa (the sheath of the mind) is only another concept that the jeeva identifies with, and calls it "my mind is not function" or "my mind is at peace" etc. At the cosmic level, mind is only a cocnept. The yogasutras of Patanjali called the mind a medium with five types of modification (vritthis.)

Vidyaranya's Panchadasi (13:20-27) reveals of Vasista's teachings to Rama - in the Yogavaasista. Here, he says, "O Rama, <b>when the all-pervasive, eternal and infinite Self assumes the power of cognition, we call it the mind.</b> O Prince, first the mind arises, then the notion of bondage and release and then the universe consisting of many worlds. Thus all this manifestation has been fixed or settled (in human minds), like the tales told to amuse children."

To amuse a child, O mighty one, the nurse relates some beautiful story: "Once upon a time there were three handsome princes. Two of them were never born and the third was never even conceived in his mother’s womb. They lived righteously in a city which never existed. These holy princes came out of their city of non-existence and while roaming saw trees, laden with fruits, growing in the sky. Then the three princes, my child, went to a city which was yet to be built and lived there happily, passing their time in games and hunting." "O Rama, the nurse thus narrated the beautiful children's tale. The child too through want of discrimination believed it to be true. Thus to those who have no discrimination the world appears to be real like the tale repeated to the child.

To make things clear, here is an exercise for you to try at home. Spend half hour a day and do the following:
Sit silently, and observe the thoughts that come to your mind. Do not stop the thoughts, but do not contribute to them. Just observe silently. All the while, be aware of your breathing. So you have two tasks..

1) Observe the thoughts silently without stopping or contributing to it.
2) Be aware of your breathing in and out.

Do not worry about the clock, do not worry about other sounds. With practise it will easily be achieveable. I have tried it in a busy marketplace, and on a mountaintop and still was able to achieve results.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> 2. Who realises - person or self ? Self cannot realize self and person cannot realise self since at the time of realization the person wont exist ? Unless if there is a third entity besides a person and self (mind, internal organ, lets say) but then what is that third entity - is that real or unreal ? Moreover if the effect (the person) is but just self then how can self realise self ? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I shall take the example of the ten travellers. They knew that they were a party of 10. Once there were 10 travellers who were crossing a river. After the river was crossed, they started counting themselved. Each time a person counted he would leave himself out, and thus counted only nine. They begain wailing thinking that one of them was lost to the river. A holy man came nearby and asked a man to count again. When the man counted nine, the holy man said "YOU ARE THE TENTH ONE." and instantly the tenth man realized that he was the tenth person. The same way, by hearing to the Mahavakyaslike "Tath Thvam Asi" (YOU ARE THAT), there will be instant realization. Here you do not need a third entity to realize yourself. The Mind will be still, and the SELF will remain in it's own state. This state is called realization. It is not Self-perception. (You need a mind/intellect to perceive, but not to relalize.)

Hope that makes sense.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> 3. If one doesnt realise then one still remains Brahman and if one doesnt realise one still remains Brahman then why should one realise ? For if one doesnt realise the sufferings that happen are also not real then why try to eradicate something that is not real ? The avidya which is beginningless is going to remain regardless, right ? Then why remove avidya ?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Brahman is Brahman irrespective of space, time or whether the Jiva realizes or not. True. The objective of realizing is purely owing to two things. 1) The accumulated result of work from previous-births (Prarabdha), and 2) The Grace of the Lord (Ishwara Anugraham.) The question of why we should realize will remain only till you see the PARAM, once it has been seen, this question will drop off. It is like asking what do I get by breathing.. you do not gain anything, but if you do not breathe, you have a lot to lose.

Avidya is said to be beginningless because the word beginning denotes creation in a particular point in time. Avidya is the cause of time and space, and hence it cant' be classified as one with a Beginning. Also, Avidya is not a REAL entity. It does not exist in real. If it did, then Avidya cannot be ended with Knowledge. But our shastras say that Avidya ends with aquisition of Gnanam. To overcome Avidya, one needs to worship Sri Vidya. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Am I even on the right track boss ??<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You DEFINITELY are on the right track Rajesh ji. <i><b>Na hi kalyaanakrit kaschit, durgathim thaatha gachhathi. (BG 6:40)</b></i>

[Guest]

Sunder guroo,

Need to think (and read) about this some more. If possible, at the end of it (maybe decades) , I want to reach some conclusion that doesnt require faith .

BTW I have started the excercise starting yesterday, I fell asleep.. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> I will keep at it.

[Sunder]

<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+Nov 8 2004, 04:08 AM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Nov 8 2004, 04:08 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> I want to reach some conclusion that doesnt require faith. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This may be tough, because faith is the first step to knowledge. If there is no faith, there will be no motivation. But again, Faith is only a stepping stone, and faith is not a be-all end-all. (I used to be an atheist and an anti-theist, but I took the skeptic's approach and cultivated faith in Rajayoga and in Dharmic teachings to see if this was real or humbug. I now know it's for Real.) I cannot stress the importance of faith enough.. so I shall quote from the Srimadh Bhagavad Geetha.

Shraddhavaan Labathe Gnaanam thath parah samyatendriyah.
Gnanam labdhva paraam shaanthim achirenadi gacchathi. (4:39)

(One who has faith will gain knowledge, only after this will he/she gain control of the senses. Once the Knowledge (Realization) has been attained, he/she will attain the Everlasting Peace instantly.

I know the whole vedanta business will be confusing even on repeatedly reading or listening to it. But with patience, and complete faith in the methodology you will gain the EXPERIENCE. This is not just logical conclusion which is a waste of time, we are talking about first hand experience here. Keep up the good work, and falling asleep is only the second stage <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> You have only 3 more stages to go thru <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> (I had posted the five stages somewhere before.)

[gangajal]

<!--QuoteBegin-sridhar k+Nov 3 2004, 10:24 AM-->QUOTE(sridhar k @ Nov 3 2004, 10:24 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Thanks for the info about Ramakrishna Advaita and i guess it explains the references to the three great philosophies at equal lengths in the Bhagavat Gita

But a rhetorical question, does Ramakrishna's concept still remain as Advaita, when it accepts Dvaita and Vishisadvaita?  i.e. If all are valid from their respective standpoints (the level from which you look at it), ===> it is standpoint dependent , and how can truth be dependent on a standpoint?

What is Kevala advaita- Does it say jeevatma = paratma and it does not accepts the relevance of Dvaitic and Vishtadvaitic concepts? . If  you are Brahman, why do you need to worship Brahman sort of a thing and Where does Adi Shankara's philoshophy fall under. My understanding was even Adi Shankaras concept is the same as Ramakrishna's with respect to accepting Dvaitic and Vishtadvatic relevance at a relative standpoint thouh at a absolute standpoint, it is advaita?

Just penned whatever came in my mind without organizing th questions and sorry for that. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sundar ji,
My apologies for the delay. I was out of town.

Ramakrishna agrees with Shankara that the Advaitic experience is the highest experience. There are some people, however, who do not care about that highest experience and want to retain some difference with Brahman. These people who want to retain some difference stay in Brahmalok for the rest of this cycle and are released when this cycle ends.

Ramakrishna says that though Advaitic experience is the highest experience, it is not the final experience. He says that the final state is the state of the Vijnana. When a person reaches the state of Vijnana she finds that there is no difference between the relative and the absolute. Both are "made" of Brahman. The relative is also real. He uses tha analogy of a fruit to argue that to declare the relative as unreal is like saying that only the seeds of the fruit are real while the skin and flesh are unreal. Such an approach will yield a wrong weight of the fruit.

This is the reason why Ramakrishna Vedanta does not accept Kevala Advaita's position that Hindu Gods and Goddesses are ultimately unreal. According to Ramakrishna personal forms of Gods and Godesses are frozen consciosuness like ice due to the cooling effect of Bhakti while Brahman the impersonal reality is like water due to the heating effect of the sun of Jnana.

There is also difference between Ramakrishna and Shankara about the highest stage of Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Ramakrishna says that an ordinary jiva can not last more than 21 days at the highest level of Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Only great teachers can come back to the relative world after having that experience. I have never seen any such declaration by Shankara.

Ramakrishna also talks of the experience of Bhavomukha. A person in that state can move from the absolute to the relative. This state can only be achieved by a Vijnani.

[gangajal]

I mistakenly typed Sundar ji. Actually it should be Sridhar ji.

[Sunder]

Gangajal ji, I completely agree with what you said. My primary influencer into the Path I had taken was none other than Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. I remember that when I was still an anti-theist, my father's trip to Guruvayoor and his experiences had an impact on me. The seeds of bhakthi began sprouting, and it was during that time that I read the 'Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna' which I took from a library in the forests of Kamalapuram (near warangal.) Reading about this great 'madman of god' seeing my Mother face-to-face was what gave me the hope and will power. If one man can see it, then by law of nature, any man can see it.. i.e. everyone can see it if there is enough effort. Thence my only aim in life was 'to see God.' I had quite a few experiences that Sri Ramakrishna did. Including the Viraha bhava where my heart felt like it was wrenched. The constatnt flow of tears, and the whole shebang. Ramakrishna's lifestyle itself was a primary influence in the budding stage, from then on it went thru different methods (to the same end) of following Ramana Maharshi's self-enquiry, and ofcourse, Sri Krishna's teachings of the Gita (I used to live out one shloka for weeks or months at a time.) 'nuff said 'bout me.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ramakrishna agrees with Shankara that the Advaitic experience is the highest experience. There are some people, however, who do not care about that highest experience and want to retain some difference with Brahman.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not only Ramakrishna or Shankaracharya, anyone who has had THE experience will have to agree with it. There cannot be two versions of the same experience, there can however be two 'versions' of conveying how one felt. No wonder Rg Veda says 'ekam sat viprah bahudha vadanthi, agnim yamam matharisvanam ahuh.'

Thus be it Buddha, Ramakrishna, Ramana, Shankara, Brahmendral, or Vasista, they all will experience the same state while there. (It’s like us having the same experience with sushupti, swapnam or jagrut.)

Secondly, those who do not care about "that highest experience" have not yet tasted it. Had they had the experience, they will neither want it, nor reject it. Don’t you agree ? Also, someone's wish to stay apart itself does not make it possible, there has to be Divine Will too inorder to enable this (w.r.t. relative existence.)

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This is the reason why Ramakrishna Vedanta does not accept Kevala Advaita's position that Hindu Gods and Goddesses are ultimately unreal.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This reminds me of the episode of Totapuri who was a Kevala Advaiti, but finally had to concede the greatness of Maha Maya. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> Isn't it the Kenopanishad that says that 'those who say they Know, do not know IT. and those who say I do not know it also do not know it.' He who neither says he knows it, nor says he does not perhaps may know It.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ramakrishna also talks of the experience of Bhavomukha. A person in that state can move from the Absolute to the relative. This state can only be achieved by a Vijnani. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I had heard of this term. I had often tried to imagine what the great Avataras like Sri Krishna, and Rama would feel like when they looked at this world of five-bhutas. Always remaining in the highest state, and yet dealing with the world. I have never been able to achieve this one. It's always one or the other, but not both.

Having said that, I would say that Sri Ramakrishna's *method* of teaching is for a different audience than that of Sri Shankara.

It is however sad that the followers of Sri Ramakrishna see a "difference" in "advaita" itself, and are almost creating a sort of 'Ramakrishnaism'. (Sorry for the digression.)

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/19...9-04.shtml
http://www.voi.org/books/wiah/ch6.htm

[Sunder]

<!--QuoteBegin-gangajal+Nov 10 2004, 01:07 AM-->QUOTE(gangajal @ Nov 10 2004, 01:07 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> I mistakenly typed Sundar ji. Actually it should be Sridhar ji. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oops... <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->

[gangajal]

<!--QuoteBegin-Sunder+Nov 10 2004, 01:22 AM-->QUOTE(Sunder @ Nov 10 2004, 01:22 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> It is however sad that the followers of Sri Ramakrishna see a "difference" in "advaita" itself, and are almost creating a sort of 'Ramakrishnaism'. (Sorry for the digression.)

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/19...9-04.shtml
http://www.voi.org/books/wiah/ch6.htm <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sundar ji,
Don't worry!!

The Ramakrishna Order is not creating a Ramakrishnaism. They were under attack in West Bengal by the Jyoti Basu Govt which threatened to take over their schools and various organizations unless Communist party cadres were allowed into positions of power in their organization. At that time they were advised by their lawyers to claim minority status as the only way to save their organization from CPM control. It was a legal manuevre to save them from Communist control.

[Sunder]

Thanks for clearing that up ji..

[Sunder]

<!--QuoteBegin-gangajal+Nov 10 2004, 12:11 AM-->QUOTE(gangajal @ Nov 10 2004, 12:11 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Ramakrishna agrees with Shankara that the Advaitic experience is the highest experience. There are some people, however, who do not care about that highest experience and want to retain some difference with Brahman. These people who want to retain some difference stay in Brahmalok for the rest of this cycle and are released when this cycle ends.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here is a quote from Swami Vidyaranya's Panchadasi. (Chapter 2, Discrimination of the Five Elements.)

http://www.celextel.org/ebooks/other_boo...hadasi.htm

27. As a man who ha fallen into the sea is bewildered and loses the power of exercising his senses, so they too become afraid and nervous when they hear of the Reality as one only without parts.

28. The teacher Gaudapada speaks of the great fear of some yogins who are devoted to Brahman with form, regarding the objectless super-conscious state.

29. This identification with the ungrasped and ungraspable Reality is difficult to achieve. They are indeed seeing fear in the fearless.