Cardona on Panini's date
Francisco Brighenti:
<i>"â¦the Persians -- through the medium of which, in my view, the term Yavana/Yona (< Persian Yauna) was introduced into Gandhara â â¦"
The following is a link to George Cardona's discussion of the date of Panini contained in his book _Panini: A Survey of Research_(Paris 1976):
http://tinyurl. com/4pj3wm
"As everyone can see, on pp. 267-68 of the book Cardona concludes his
discussion with proposing a relative date range for Panini which extends from the mid sixth century (earliest estimated date, on which there is less consensus among scholars) to the early to mid fourth century BCE (latest estimated date, on which there is a much greater consensus among scholars). Cardona's *earliest* estimated date for Panini is, therefore, only 50 years earlier than 500 BCE, the
approximate time at which, in my reconstruction, the name Yavana
(occurring in Ashtadhyayi 4.1.49 in the feminine form yavanani) would have been introduced in N.W. Indo-Aryan languages through the medium of the Persians. This contradiction may, however, be solved by recalling that a later date for Panini is not only possible, but even more likely than a date at ca. 550 BCE."</i>
This is what Cardona really concludes:
<i>"3.1.7. Conclusion
The evidence for dating Panini, Katyayana and Patanjali is not absolutely probative and depends on interpretation. However, I think there is one certainty, namely that the evidence available hardly allows one to date Panini later than the early to mid fourth century B.C."</i> (G. Cardona, Panini: A Survey of Research, p.268)
Cardona begins on page 260 in section 3.1 with the dates of Panini, Katyayana and Patanjali. In section 3.1.1, Cardona already forwards his opinion reached in his conclusion:
<i>"Despite these divergent views, in none of the surveys of Paninian scholarship written to date ⦠is the evidence cited in support of these views summarized or evaluated, so that the reader could get the impression that opinions are not well founded or even whimsical.⦠Although the conclusion reached is not surprising (see section III.3.1.7), I believe a sifting of evidence is worthwhile."</i>
Cardona starts with the internal (3.1.2) and external evidences (3.1.3), leading nowhere definitely. And then moves on with the relative chronology, to determine the dates of Katyayana and Patanjali to approximate the date of Panini, also leading to nothing conclusively, except that it should be before the early to mid fourth century B.C.! Trying to estimate the intervals between Panini and
Katyayana and Katyayana and Patanjali in section 3.1.6, he arrives at this date, which is an assumption, as he admits:
<i>"All these factors require that Panini must have preceded Katyayana by some time. Now subjectivism enters in that one must suggest what would be a sufficient time to allow for these factors. If one accepts that Patanjali is to be dated at about 150 B.C. (see section III.3.1.4) and one assumes a gap of two hundred years between him and Katyayana (see S.P. Chaturvedi [1950:145]) and a similar gap between Katyayana and Patanjali (sic Panini), these authors are then assigned
respectively to the mid fourth and sixth centuries B.C. If, on the other hand, one accept the arguments proposed for placing Katyayana in the middle of the third century B.C. (see section III.3.1.5) and a similar gap of one hundred is allowed between Katyayana and Panini, then the latter is assigned to the early to mid fourth century B.C." </i>
While Cardona is very prudent, by others the Yavana and Kumara-shramaNaa arguments are given too much weight, still. And the word Yavana is interpreted to denote only an Ionian or Greek.
In Indian sources Yavanas are becoming degraded Kshatriyas speaking in a dialect form (Mleccha), once having a better position and not being treated as foreigners. Yavanas of King Bhagadatta in the Mahabharata are placed in south/southwest India before the Yadu migration scene to Dvaraka. It would not make sense for Yadus to migrate to the west if Yavanas attacked Mathura from the same west.
Greeks coming to Yavana Janapada (=not Bactria, but rather in Kandahar) became Yavanas. There is never a Greek Ionia in the east, which is neither stated in Persian inscriptions, nor by Herodotus.
It has already been put forward that shramaNaa can also denote a Jaina nun. Jainism precedes the Buddha. ('nuns' were also known to Hindu systems, like the Aupanishadika Sulabha).
The Sanskrit word shramaNa is derived from the Sanskrit verbal root shram "to exert, effort, labor or to perform austerity". shramaNa thus means "one who strives" in Sanskrit.
Shramati tapasyatîti shramaNaH ("a sramaNa is he who exerts himself and performs religious austerities" ). One of the earlier uses of the word is in Taittiriya Aranyaka (2-7-1) with the meaning of 'performer of austerities' . [Aranyakas, at least ca. 700 BCE, as per standard chronology]
Several shramaNa movements are known to have existed before the 6th century BCE, where they peaked during the times of Mahavira and Buddha. ShramaNas adopted a path alternate to the Vedic rituals to achieve salvation, while renouncing household life. .
Cardona doesn't put much weight upon internal (Yavana and shramaNaa issue) and external (two Paninis) evidence for dating Panini, he opts for the relative chronology, but admits it is an assumption based upon interpretation, it is subjectivism.
But, while Cardona doesn't put much weight upon the Yavana issue, the identity of that word with Ionian Greeks, places the date of Panini close to the Persian conquest of Gandhara, assuming that Yavana and Yauna must have a relation. And that rocks Panini's date to a range of ca. 550-350 BCE, all based upon the identity Yavana =Yauna-Ionia.
And every reasoning consequently is an elaboration and (re)interpretation based upon this conjecture.
If the late Shantiparva uses once the form Yauna for the older Yavana, but never Yona (5th/4th c. BCE Assalayanasutta), both forms Yauna (Pkt) and Yavana (Skt) must predate the Pali period Yona, which means that Panini predates the Pali period suttas.
At least one can see the word development from Yavana to Yauna, with the archaic word Javana with the same meaning of swiftness as Yavana (also curtain), within the same single work. But, none of these with preconceived minds mention the form "Yauna" and no one cared to look at what the Indian works really state about Yavanas from older layers to younger.
^ Ishwa's posts 240 (previous page) and 241
No problem at all. Husky. <!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yavanas and their identity
The Shantiparva gives a very important reference to the ancient status of several groups, one of which are the Yavanas:
I<b>. Ancient Dharma of Yavanas etc.</b>
<i>yavanâH kirâtâ gândhârâÅh cînâH ÅhabarabarbarâH | Åhakâs tuSHârâH kahvâÅh ca pahlavâÅh cândhramadrakâH
oDrâH pulindÄ ramaTHâH kâcÄ mlecchâÅh ca sarvaÅhaH | brahmakSHatraprasûtâÅh ca vaiÅhyâH ÅhûdrâÅh ca mânavâH ||b12.c065.v013-014||
("Mandhatri said,) 'What duties should be performed collectively by the Yavana, Kirata, Gandhara, Cina (ishwa: Shina), Shabara, Barbara, Shaka, Tushara (ishwa: high mountaineer), Kahvas (var. Kanka), Pahlava, Andhra, Madraka, Odra (var. Paundra), Pulinda, Ramatha and Mleccha (var. Kamboja) Vaishyas and Shudras and offshoots of Brahma-Kshatras, (all these) Manavas?
kathaM dharmaM careyus te sarve viSHayavâsinaH | madvidhaiÅh ca kathaM sthâpyâH sarve te dasyujîvinaH ||b12.c065.v015||
What are those duties again to the observance of which kings like ourselves should force those tribes that subsist by robbery?
etad icchâmy ahaM ÅhrotuM bhagavaMs tad bravîhi me |tvaM bandhubhÅ«to hy asmâkaM kSHatriyâNâM sureÅhvara ||b12.c065.v016||
I desire to hear all this. O illustrious God, instruct me. O chief of all the deities, thou art the friend of us Kshatriyas.'
mâtâpitryor hi kartavyâ ÅhuÅhrûSHâ sarvadasyubhiH | âcârya guruÅhuÅhrûSHâ tathaivâÅhramavâsinâm ||b12.c065.v017||
"Indra said, 'All the robber tribes should serve their mothers and fathers, their preceptors and other seniors, and recluses living in the woods.
bhûmipâlânâM ca ÅhuÅhrûSHâ kartavyâ sarvadasyubhiH | veda dharmakriyâÅh caiva teSHâM dharmo vidhîyate ||b12.c065.v018||
All the robber tribes should also serve their kings. The duties and rites inculcated in the Vedas should also be followed by them.
pitryajñâs tathâ kûpâH prapâÅh ca Åhayanâni ca | dânâni ca yathâkâlaM dvijeSHu dadyur eva te ||b12.c065.v019||
They should perform sacrifices in honour of the Pitris, dig wells, (and dedicate them to universal service), give water to thirsty travellers, give away beds and make other seasonable presents unto Brahmanas.
ahiMsâ satyam akrodho vrtti dâyânupâlanam | bharaNaM putradârâNâM Åhaucam adroha eva ca ||b12.c065.v020||
Abstention from injury, truth, suppression of wrath, supporting Brahmanas and kinsmen by giving them their dues, maintenance of wives and children, purity, peacefulness,
dakSHiNâ sarvayajnânâM dâtavyâ bhûtim icchatâ |pâkayajnâ mahârhâÅh ca kartavyâH sarvadasyubhiH ||b12.c065.v021||
making presents to Brahmanas at sacrifices of every kind, are duties that should be practised by every person of this class who desire his own prosperity. Such a person should also perform all kinds of Paka-yajnas with costly presents of food and wealth.
etâny evaM prakârâNi vihitâni purânagha | sarvalokasya karmâNi kartavyânîha pârthiva ||b12.c065.v022||
These and similar duties, O sinless one, were laid down in olden days for persons of this class. All these acts which have been laid down for all others should be done by persons of also the robber class, O king.'</i>
This is from the Shantiparva, according to the standard works a late section. The (Kshatriya) Dharma of these groups, who are designated as Mlecchas (12.65.14) and living like Dasyus (12.65.15) is discussed here, their live style is not much different from Aryas:
1. serve their mothers and fathers, their preceptors and other seniors, and recluses living in the woods.
2. serve their kings.
3. follow duties and rites inculcated in the Vedas.
4. perform sacrifices in honour of the Pitris, dig wells, give water to thirsty travellers, give away beds and make other seasonable presents unto Brahmanas.
5. Abstention from injury, truth, suppression of wrath, supporting Brahmanas and kinsmen by giving them their dues, maintenance of wives and children, purity, peacefulness,
6. making presents to Brahmanas at sacrifices of every kind, are duties that should be practised by every person of this class who desire his own prosperity. Such a person should also perform all kinds of Paka-yajnas with costly presents of food and wealth.
Then, after enumerating the Dharma of these groups, it is concluded with this important information:
<i>âThese and similar duties, O sinless one, were laid down in olden days for persons of this class. All these acts which have been laid down for all others should be done by persons of also the robber class, O king.' â</i>
It speaks of duties laid down in olden days! Yavanas first followed this Dharma (possibly in remoter times the Arya Dharma) and later neglected or changed their duties.
<b>II. Neglect or Change of Dharma</b>
The same Shantiparva contains the form Yauna. Mentioned together with Kambojas, Gandharas, Kiratas and Barbaras in the north. Yauna m. pl. N. of a people (prob. = yavana) MBh. [ 859,2]
uttaraapathajanmaanaH kiirtayiSHaami taan api
yaunakaambojagaandhaaraaH kiraataa barbaraiH saha ||b12.c200.v040||
Nowhere in the epics do we find the Pali form Yona or Yonaka. The Shantiparva, with the late form Yauna at another place, also points to all these having more Varnas. The Assalayanasutta, with a form Yona later than the Shantiparva Yauna, points to Kambojas and Yonakas having only 2 Varnas!
One can find a gradual deterioration of the position of (Kambojas and) Yavanas in the epic in the next book, the Anushasanaparva, which means that the group following the Dasyu mode of life did not follow the Ancient Dharma anymore. They turned away from their former Kshatriya status towards Vrshala-tva. Ganguli translates this word as âstatus of Shudrasâ. But the importance lies in an intimate relation or contrast of Kshatriya(jati) with Vrshala(tva). Vrshala is a diminutive of Vrsha(n): vRSHa m. the chief of a class or anything the most excellent or preeminent or best of its kind. MBh. Kâv. etc.. A VrSHa-la, then, is either a little chief literally, or rather in this context a chief who isnât looked upon as having a full status in the eyes of other chiefs. Now, this is exactly what the Shantiparva describes: former Kshatriya-jatis who previously followed their Kshatriya Dharma, at that time not living according to their Ancient Dharma, have fallen to the status of fallen Kshatriya-tva (=Vrsha-tva), which is Vrshala-tva, or diminished Vrsha=Kshatriya status.
The Anushasanaparva gives a hint to this change:
<i>Åhakâ yavanakâmbojâs tâs tÄH kSHatriyajâtayaH | vrSHalatvaM parigatâ brâhmaNânâm adarÅhanât ||b13.c033.v019||
It is in consequence of the absence of Brahmanas from among them that the Sakas, the Yavanas, the Kamvojas and other Kshatriya tribes have become fallen and degraded into the status of Sudras.
dramiLâÅh ca kalingâŠca pulindâÅh câpy uÅhînarâH | kaulâH sarpâ mâhiSHakâs tâs tâH kSHatriyajâtayaH ||b13.c033.v020|| vrSHalatvaM parigatâ brâhmaNânâm adarÅhanât |b13.c033.v021ab|
The Dravidas, the Kalingas, the Pulindas, the Usinaras, the Kolisarpas, the Mahishakas and other Kshatriyas, have, in consequence of the absence of Brahmanas from among their midst, become degraded into Sudras.
mekalÄ dramiDâH kâÅâH pauNDrâH kolla girâs tathâ | ÅhauNDikâ daradâ darvâÅh caurâH Åhabara barbarâH ||b13.c035.v017||
kirâtâ yavanâÅh caiva tâs tâH kSHatriyajâtayaH | vrSHalatvam anuprâptâ brâhmaNânâm adarÅhanât ||b13.c035.v018||
The Mekalas, the Dravidas, the Lathas, the Paundras, the Kollagiras, the Saundikas, the Daradas, the Darvas, the Chauras, the Savaras, the Varvaras,
the Kiratas, the Yavanas, and numerous other tribes of Kshatriyas, have become degraded into the status of Sudras through absence of Brahmanas.</i>
The mentioned groups lost their ancient Kshatriya status, and the reason given is: absence of Brahmanas.
1. primary deduction: The presence of Brahmanas presupposes the maintenance of the Ancient Dharma. Which gives the rulers amongst the mentioned Jatis a Kshatriya status. The reverse, an absence of Brahmanas, means that there were no Brahmanas anymore to perform the Abhishekas. The other Kshatriyas or Vrshas didnât consider these non-consecrated as Kshatriyas, thus they were called Vrsha-las.
2. secondary deduction: The absence of Brahmanas implies that the Brahmanas of those Jatis didnât follow their ancient Dharma anymore too and were considered as fallen Brahmanas. Letâs call these Brahmanas Rshi-kas. These Rshi-kas, thus, neglected or changed their Dharma. This points to a development from various Shramana and alike groups turning heretical and preceding the time of Buddha and Jina.
We get this overall picture:
- the Shantiparva reference to the Ancient Dharma of the âDasyuâ groups and Anushasanaparva reference to their Neglected or Changed Dharma neatly falls in the time frame of the rise of heretical groups from Shramanas and alike, and preceding the time of Buddha and Jina.
- the Shantiparva form Yauna precedes Pali form Yona.
- the Yavanas as Jati precede the time of Buddha (with centuries). They probably first fell within the Arya Dharma before they followed the Ancient Dharma as Yavanas, then turned to the Neglected or Changed Dharma initially as Yavanas and finally as Yaunas, all preceding the time of Buddha when they were known as Yonas.
- The Yavanas changed from more Varnas (Brahma-kshatra, Vaishya and Shudra) to two Varnas, together with the Kambojas in the Assalayanasutta.
- the Kalayavana episode referring to the forced migration of Yadavas from Mathura to Dvaraka, and which thus precedes the submerging of Dvaraka, falls neatly within the internal Mahabharata time frame.
Neither the word Yavana nor the persons falling under that word have any remote connection with Ionians or Bactrian Greeks. The Yavanas are simply indigenous.
Perhaps a vague hint to their identity is given through the name of one of their kings: Yavanadhipati CâNura. The names sound very tribal, perhaps supporting the epic identity of Yavanas with Turvasus (SE India, tribal areas), and a remoter Pauranika connection of Turvasus with S.Indian groups.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ishwa+Sep 29 2008, 12:55 PM-->QUOTE(Ishwa @ Sep 29 2008, 12:55 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Neither the word Yavana nor the persons falling under that word have any remote connection with Ionians or Bactrian Greeks. The Yavanas are simply indigenous.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why were the Greco-Roman visitors of the Tamil kingdoms referred to as the <i>Yavanar</i>?
<!--QuoteBegin-Pandyan+Sep 30 2008, 02:02 AM-->QUOTE(Pandyan @ Sep 30 2008, 02:02 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Ishwa+Sep 29 2008, 12:55 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ishwa @ Sep 29 2008, 12:55 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Neither the word Yavana nor the persons falling under that word have any remote connection with Ionians or Bactrian Greeks. The Yavanas are simply indigenous.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why were the Greco-Roman visitors of the Tamil kingdoms referred to as the <i>Yavanar</i>?
[right][snapback]88588[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The remark deals with the ancient use of the word Yavana in the Mahabharata. None of the 25 references are coupled with Indo-Greeks, nor the Pkt word Yauna.
However, in a later time when Greek kings after Alexander's conquest ruled over Bactria, Gandhara and Kandahar, these Greek Yonarajas or kings over the Yavanas and especially those born on their soil, were from then on seen by the Indians as Yavanas too. Consequently, the Seleucid overlord and other Greeks were, through these Indo-Greek Yonarajas with the new identity of Yavanas, also called a king over Yavanas. Yona/Yavana, since then, was transplanted to refer to the Graeco-Romans and foreigners from the west in general, like the Arabs later on (probably also through the word Yaman).
1,900 yr old Buddhist monastery discovered in Gujarat
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Gujarat State Archaeological Department has discovered a small size Buddhist monastery in Gujarat's Vadnagar, which dates back to 1,900 years. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Bamiyan Buddha treasure found </b>
Kabul, Oct 19: A German team has discovered a great-sealed small jute bag inside one of the two giant Buddha statues in Bamiyan, Central Afghanistan that were destroyed by the country's former Taliban rulers.
The bag was found in an unexploded small hole that had supported the Buddha's right hand with a wooden framework while it was still intact.
It was there before the structure spontaneously decayed, on the eastern side of the statues, according to discoverer Bert Praxenthaler, an expert of renovation from the International Council on Monument and Sites.
The hemp sack is 5 centimeters in height and width and has what looks like a lion and horse clay great seal.
According to Buddhist doctrine, the lion and horse represent the Buddha himself.
The right hand of the statue is likely to have appeared after the destruction by the Taliban and the find was untouched.
One of the researchers from the team, Erwin Emmerling, a professor at Technical University of Munich, said, "This bag is supposed to be a present from India to celebrate setting up the Buddha, providing a hint to unveiling the mystery surrounding the creation of the statues."
In 2006, the same German group found a part of a Buddhist sutra in the rubble of the Buddhas after the destruction by Taliban.
Kosaku Maeda, a Wako University professor emeritus of Asian history who confirmed the finding, said the bag inside the eastern Buddha is very interesting because nobody has found anything inside the western Buddha yet.
"It will be an invaluable resource for studying Buddhist culture of Central Asia and for solving the mystery of Bamiyan," Maeda said.
Bureau Report
http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=477205&sid=ftp
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><img src='http://www.thedailystar.net/photo/2008/10/18/2008-10-18__back01.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
This ancient sandstone engraved with three figures was recently found at Ghoraghat upazila in Dinajpur, Bangladesh. It is now on display at the Mahasthan Museum in Bogra. Photo: STAR
Ancient figures dance together : Gupta era relics found in Dinajpur
Hasibur Rahman Bilu, Bogra
The officials of the Department of Archaeology recently discovered an ancient engraved stone believed to be of Gupta era from the bank of a pond near Sura Masjid at Ghoraghat Upazila in Dinajpur.
The sand stone has been preserved and put on display at the Mahasthan Museum in Bogra.
Badrul Alam, field officer of the department's regional office in Bogra, said the sandstone remained unnoticed along with other decorated stones on the premises of Sura Masjid, one of the important archaeological sites in the country.
The stone depicts three figures dancing together holding musical instruments.
Adorned with terracotta, the Sura Masjid was built using stones between 1450 and 1500 AD, during the reign of Sultan Alauddin Hussain Shah, he added.
Archaeologist Md Badrul Alam conjectures that such stones were used in Hindu or Buddhist constructions in the area during the Gupta period.
Same type of stones had also been used for constructing Sura Masjid.
Assistant Custodian of the Mahasthan Museum Md Mahabub-Ul-Alam said the engraved stone believed to be of Gupta era represents Hindu architecture of that period.
http://www.thedailystar.net/story.php?nid=59225<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why are they shy of saying the mosque was built by destroying an ancient temple?
10-26-2008, 06:33 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2008, 06:35 PM by Husky.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Oct 26 2008, 09:05 AM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Oct 26 2008, 09:05 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Comparative Royal Chronology and History of India (Spreadsheet)
[right][snapback]89454[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I stopped reading when I came to this:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Swayambhuva Manu (the first Manu -
'Adi Manu') is Adam.
His wife, Saurava (Haurava) is Eve.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->What the? <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo--> Are some Hindus always this hopeless or are they just putting on a show to impress me?
Yavana issue
I do not believe that the ethnonym Yavana is derived from javana, but that both words share the meaning of moving swiftly. The horse connection was attached shortly later to the primary meaning of Yavana as expellers. Francesco Brighenti is wrong to think that yavana has its horse connection from javana (Juu is already a race horce in the RV.) and that it is late. It has already RV niyut
He is also wrong that the meaning of moving swiftly seems to be from a wrong reading of javana. RV yu means moving (swifly). It is derived from an ancient IA root yu or yaa with words giving yaa+van, resembling words from the roots yu = to yoke and yu = to expel.
We have a indigenous people named Yavana, for which there is a plausible indigenous etymology. We have a foreign people Ionian or Yauna, which has very doubtful etymologies (2 older, and 2 younger).
We have two homonyms Aramaic Ywn=yavanu and Yavana, but no connection between these two, as Panini doesn't know and mention Hakhamanish or Achaemenids. (lipi if writing, doesn't mean that it was known through Achaemenids. Besides, lipi is derived from smearing, painting, while he doesn't know cuneiform scratching, which would rather equate it with likh. Does lipi from the root lip mean writing at all, or painting, and lipikara a painter or plasterer? At least it has no connection to the cuneiform technique. Ashokan dipi is derived from Aramaic, but is it connected to Paninian lipi? But this is another discussion)
Let's get back to one classic source of the Ionian = Yavana equation myth and see how reliable his sources and interpretations are.
Yavana thesis of A.K. Narain
The introduction to the Yavana issue with A.K. Narainâs thesis, the Indo-Greeks, gives a good idea on what grounds the equation Yavana=Greeks is based. The more one looks at the bare facts in support, which are scarce anyway, the more one learns that it is based upon very shaky and weak grounds. [Himanshu Ray doesnât add anything substantial to Narainâs thesis on the origins. She presents the relevant material in a messy way, especially with regards of the timeline of the several works, not making a distinction for instance between earlier and later Law books. Her better contribution is with regards to collecting epigraphical material on Yavanas from the first century BCE and the first centuries CE.]
Narain presents his thesis with an equation Yavana = Greek. While he starts in Appendix I with the assumption with the words âmay well have beenâ, it is clear that the equation is already settled in his mind. His next sentences are just presented in such a way as to find the proofs for this equation. This method is very convenient for anyone to proof any point. The huge leaps are wished away by filling that up with wishful thinking. The bare facts presented by himself are too scanty and too weak to proof his case, while ignoring what the presented works really have to say, or while admitting that different category Indian works give an indigenous origin to Yavanas, brushing that aside.
I. Greek deportations?
Narain has to proof that Indian Yona or Yavana has to be Greeks. But in order to get this equation, he must proof that there were those Greeks called Yauna by Persians settled close enough to Gandhara that Indians might have known these also as Yauna. [The question is: if Yavanas of the S-Indus area are not (Bactrian) Greeks, when did these, or rather Indo-Greeks, came to be called Yavana, getting fused with indigenous Yavanas]
The evidence is scarce, here Narain could come up only with Herodotus (some data come from late post-Alexandrian sources) and Athenian owls.
From A.K. Narain, _The Indo-Greeks_, Oxford, Claredon Press, 1957:
"There is evidence to show that the Greeks of various city-states in Asia Minor were sometimes threatened by the Persians with exile to the far eastern portions of the Achaemenid empire [fn. 4: Herodotus VI. 9] and were actually settled in those areas [fn. 5: Besides the colonies of the Thracians (?) at Nysa and of the Branchidae in Sogdiana, we know from Herodotus, IV. 204, that a colony of Libyans from Barca was settled in Bactria]" (p. 3).
"The Athenian 'owls', together with the issues of other Greek cities, which have been found in Afghanistan, must have been brought there by the Greeks both as traders and settlers" (p. 4).
CRITIQUE
There were threats and there were actual deportations. But what has Herodotus really recorded about the Greeks:
1. Barcaeans of Libya or Putaya were deported to a village Barca in Bactria. 2. There was a threat to Ionians to deport them to Phoenicia or only their girls (!) to Bactria, but actually the Milesians (including the priestly Branchidae) Ionians or Yauna were deported to Susa and and the Tigris delta south. Herodotus knew the difference between the different Greeks, the Persians didnât differentiate and called the people after their provinces! (iyam ⦠in the nation or district lists)
Thus, the pre-Alexandrian source that is brought up to assume that Greeks of different city-states have been deported to eastern provinces, doesnât state this as fact at all! We have only Barcaean Putaya in a village in Bactria. No Yauna near Gandhara! Thus Panini, who neither knows Achaemenids nor Ywn (Aramaic) or Yauna (OP) Greeks, couldnât have known
Branchidae Yauna mercenaries, as per one late post-Alexandrian source, ended up later in remote Sogdiana perhaps some time before Alexander. These were clearly mercenaries in the Persian army. That is why Alexander massacred them. The same case with the Cariatae, who must have been Karka, famous as mercenaries. The Thracians or Skudra (!) in Nysa, also from a late post-Alexandrian source, is based upon a few similarities between Nuristanis and Thracians, but it is not proven. (anyway, are Thracian Skudras ethnic Greeks?)
Of course there were some Greek traders who had their quarters in cities and villages, and thus had their coinage to trade amongst each other. Says McEvilly: âFurther, the pre-Alexandrian Greek coins found in Asia need not have been the result of lasting settlement, but only of trade, ..â (McEvilly: The Shape of Ancient Thought, p. 360)
The coins point to their use amongst Greek (mostly Karka and some Branchidae Yauna) mercenaries with the (mostly Sparda and Yauna) kurtash or contract workers of Susa and further west.
Thus, we have a village of Barcaean Putaya or Libyan Greeks (not Yauna!) in Bactria in the 5th century BCE. And we have Brachidae Yauna mercenaries in Sogdiana and Cariatae Karka mercenaries nearby in the late 4th century BCE. The evidence is too scanty and these mercenaries are too far away from Paniniâs homeplace to remember insignificant pockets of Yauna, Karka and Putaya in the army of the Achaemenids or Hakhamanish, the last also not known to the Ashtadhyayi, which should have been the case if Gandhara was a Persian satrapy in Paniniâs time! And is it a huge leap from having scattered pockets of traders on the move to the existence of a Yavana Janapada in the S-Indus area.
II. Yavana = Ionian?
Narain, then, turns to the (indigenous) etymology of Yavana in Appendix I to proof that Yavanas must have been foreigners and thus Greeks.
From A.K. Narain, _The Indo-Greeks_, Oxford, Claredon Press, 1957:
âThe term Yavana may well have been first applied by the Indians to the Greeks of various cities of Asia Minor who were settled in the areas contiguous to north-west India.3
The Yavanas were regarded by the law books and epics as degenerate Ksatriyas,4 and were considered to be of Indian origin, the descendants of Turvasu.5 But their names alone are sufficient to prove that they were foreigners.6
The word Yavana, if it is assumed to be Indian, can be derived in three ways. Firstly, from yu = 'keeping away', 'averting' (dveSHo yavana),7 signifying one who is disliked. Secondly, from yu 'mixing, mingling',8 (i.e. Yauti mishrayati vaa mishriibhavati sarvattra jaatibhedaabhaavaat iti yavanah),9 implying a mixed people. Thirdly, from the meaning, 'quick', 'swift'; a swift horse,10 (i.e. Yavena gacchatiiti yavanah),11 denoting those who have a quick mode of conveyance.12 These derivations taken together may indicate that the Yavanas were thought of as a mixed people, who had a quick mode of conveyance and who were disliked as aliens and invaders;13 these derivations are, however, comparatively recent.
CRITIQUE
Greeks in NW India
See above. Greeks from the different Achaemenid districts of Sparda, Yauna, Karka and Putaya are unknown to Indians and their works. Panini who doesnât know these Greeks, even doesnât know Achaemenids or their empire! Neither do the Mahabharata, Tipitaka or Gautama Dharmasutra.
Foreigners
A.K. Narain assumes beforehand that Yavana should be applied to foreigners, specified as Greeks in the first sentence above. In the second sentence he looks for justification in Indian law books en epics. Narain cites here the Manusmrti and the Mahabharata. But he forgets to mention the older Gautama Dharmasutra iv.21, which refers to Yavanas as a mixture of Kshatriya father and Shudra mother.
Despite the fact that Indian works give an indigenous origin to the Yavanas, which Narain admits, he rather concludes that their names alone are sufficient to prove that they were foreigners. But without giving their names to substantiate his assumption, which is strange.
The Yavana kings in the Mahabharata are called: Yavana (ancient great kings), Chanura Devarata (mentioned with a Bhoja and Kirata king, showing that these were ruling in the east, south and of course Chanura in the west), Sumitra (rules in Sauvira country in the west. Battle with Pandu), Bhagadatta (rules in the west. Old friend of Pandu), Kasherumat (Battle with Krshna. Probable direct predecessor of Kalayavana), Kalayavana Gargya (mentioned as king of western India. Battle with Krshna)
Yavanadhipati Pandava Yadava
0. Yavana (=king EkayAvan, TB?)
1. CANura DevarAta
2. Sumitra*+ of part of Sauvira PANDu*
3. Bhagadatta*+ Arjuna+ KrSHNa^
4. Kasherumat^ and KAlayavana+^
Do these names sound foreign or Greek? Chanura may sound tribal, but not his 2nd name Devarata (his Gotra?). The names donât even sound hybrid.
Kala-yavana (perhaps adopted by Bhagadatta or rather Kasherumat): his name is should be seen against the contrast of Vedic Yaavan (or yava) versus A-yaavan (or a-yava). A-yaavana = Krshna-paksha and Yaavan=Shukla-paksha.
á-yava m. the dark half of the month VS. ShBr. = á-yaavan ShBr. And yáva
m. the first half of a month (generally in pl.; accord. to Comn. = puurva-pakSaaH; also written yaava) VS. ShBr. KâTh = yaáva m. TS.
Kaala=A=Krshna=dark. King Kala-yavanaâs action was like the Moonâs (Chandravamsha) dark side or Vedic A-yaavan of the Turvasuvamsha, to the bright side or Vedic Yaavan of the Yaduvamsha. Dark side Kaala versus Bright side Krshna (the shining Deva or Vaasu-deva). The relief (muc) of this A-yavana came through king Mucukunda.
The poet connected a military campaign with a lunar symbolism to give an extra âmoralâ dimension to the event. Nothing is foreign about Kala-yavana or his name. This settles the case of the meaning of Kalayavana's name.
Etymology
Then, Narain gives the etymologies, which is very selective to show that they must be foreigners and thus Greeks.
His conclusion is clearly wrong with the first example: âFirstly, from the yu = 'keeping away', 'averting' (dveSHo yavana), signifying one who is disliked.â The word doesnât signify one who is disliked, but rather Yavana is the one who keeps away, he keeps away the Dvesha or the enemy. Yavana here rather denotes a protector, a Kshatriya, thus someone who is liked and needed! This word Dvesho yavana is from the Vedic (!) Krshnayajurveda. Thus not a recent word, as he conjectures. More ancient, Vedic words from this root: dveSHo-yávana (MaitrS.) and mfn. removing hostility. dveSHo-yút (RV.), mfn. removing hostility. pra-yotR' m. a remover, expeller RV VII.86.6. Or Yaavan
Very sloppish of him not to check the textplace in MW.
He is clearly wrong too with the second example: âSecondly, from yu 'mixing, mingling',8 (i.e. Yauti mishrayati vaa mishriibhavati sarvattra jaatibhedaabhaavaat iti yavanah),9 implying a mixed people.â
He cites MW dictionary, but these are the true meanings given to the root he has in mind: 2: yu does not mean mixing, but âto unite, attach, harness, yoke, bind, fasten RV.(=yuj); to draw towards one's self, take hold or gain possession of, hold fast AV. TS. ShBr.; to push on towards (acc.) AV.; to confer or bestow upon (dat.), procure RV.; (yauti), to worship, honour Naigh. iii, 14.â (It is from this root that the Vedic Yaavan and A-yaavan are derived from for the halves of the moon..)
Where did Narain get this idea of mixing, mingling from? Did he check MW, or did he quote from another author (Rajendralal Mitra?)? There is however a root yu which means to mix (of meal preparation), giving the Vedic word aa-yávana = spoon (for stirring), AV or yu(u)Sh(a) = soup, broth, RV etc.. But since when are Yavanas connected with a meal? The meanings of uniting, and also yoking (RV), but also of pushing on towards (AV) of this root 2:yu are coming close to the meaning of root 1:yu of MW. Again, very sloppish, indeed.
The third example has the meaning, 'quick', 'swift'; a swift horse,10 (i.e. Yavena gacchatÄ«ti yavanah),11 denoting those who have a quick mode of conveyance.12â. Narain wants to see in this connection foreigners âwho had a quick mode of conveyanceâ. This meaning of Yavana, having almost the same meaning as its synonym Javana (aa-javana n. ( ju) "conquering", Nir. ix, (3.)23. aajayanasya-aajavanasya-iti vaa | m. a running-match; a fighting-match, prize-fight, combat; place for running, race-course; war, battle. This meaning with fighting an enemy/adversary comes close to the meaning of yavana as expeller!), is ancient too, despite Francescoâs objection. See: eva-yaávan mf(arii)n. going quickly (said of VishNu and the Maruts) RV.
Here we see already a RV word (!) from an ancient root yu = to move quickly. There are more Vedic words from this root denoting to move (quickly): yaávan m. (for 2. p. 852, col. 3) a rider horseman, invader, aggressor, foe R. [ 850,2]; (ifc.) going, driving, riding (cf. akSNa-, agra-, eka-y &c.) akSNa-yaávan mfn. going across RV. viii, 7, 35. agra-yaávan mfn. going before RV. x, 70, 2; eka-yaávan m. N. of a king TBr. ii TâNDyaBr; (PB 21.14.20) RNa-yaávan mfn. relieving from debt or obligations RV. i, 87, 4; praatar-yaaan âwho moves at early morningâ 2.39.2; puro-yaavan âwho moves foremostâ 5.35.7b; sa-yaavan -"going along with, associated with, accompanying"5.35.7c.
Thus, the words yáva speed, velocity W. (prob. w.r. for java); a double convex lens ib. [Cf. Zd. yava; {Gk.}; Lith. &&&256791[847,2] javaÃ.], yavana mfn. quick, swift; m. a swift horse L. (prob. w.r. for javana) and yavaana mfn. quick, swift L. (prob. w.r. for javaana), have all ancient Vedic roots.
His conlusion âThese derivations taken together may indicate that the Yavanas were thought of as a mixed people, who had a quick mode of conveyance and who were disliked as aliens and invaders;13 these derivations are, however, comparatively recent.â, is thus not correct at all. The roots 1:yu = repelling and 3:yu = moving are from ancient Vedic words! The âmixed peopleâ meaning is not correct at all, as 2:yu = uniting and not âmixingâ. The root mixing does denote mixing of meals! The meaning of yu = to move swiftly is also Vedic.
Pokorny has given these roots of yu:
Pokorny Lubotsky Monier-Williams
ieu-1: to mix (of meal preparation)
ieu-2: to tie together, yoke ieu {3}= iau = yav [1] 2: yu (=yuj)
ieu-3: young from 2: yu?
ieu-4: to separate; to hold off ieu {1}= iau = yav [2] 1: yu
Pokorny, perhaps forgot one root, or the words are from the root yaa +van
ieu-5 : to move (quickly)
3: yú mfn. ( yaa) going, moving RV. i, 74, 7; x, 176, 3 (viii, 18, 13 ?).
yaávan m. (for 2. p. 852, col. 3) a rider horseman, invader, aggressor, foe R. [ 850,2]; (ifc.) going, driving, riding (cf. akSNa-, agra-, eka-y &c.) akSNa-yaávan mfn. going across RV. viii, 7, 35. agra-yaávan mfn. going before RV. x, 70, 2; eka-yaávan m. N. of a king TBr. ii TâNDyaBr; (PB 21.14.20) eva-yaávan and evayaa mf(arii)n. going quickly (said of VishNu and the Maruts) RV.
RNa-yaávan and RNa-yaa mfn. relieving from debt or obligations RV. i, 87, 4; praatar-yaavan âwho moves at early morningâ 2.39.2; puro-yaavan âwho moves foremostâ 5.35.7b; sa-yaavan -"going along with, associated with, accompanying"5.35.7c
3: yáva speed, velocity W. (prob. w.r. for java); [Cf. Zd. yava; {Gk.}; Lith. &&&256791[847,2] javaÃ.]
3: yavana mfn. quick, swift; m. a swift horse L. (prob. w.r. for javana).
1: yavaana mfn. quick, swift L. (prob. w.r. for javaana).
There is a root yaa = to move, to go. Monier-Williams gives an adjective from this root as yú mfn. ( yaa) going, moving RV. i, 74, 7;x, 176, 3 (viii, 18, 13 ?).
There is an adjective yaa (ifc.) going, moving ( RNa- eva-, tura-,deva-yaa). This is synonymous to yaávan(ifc.) going, driving, riding (cf. akSNa-, agra-, eka-y &c.). Evayaa has a Vedic cognate evayaavan, likewise devayaa has devayaavan. Turayaa has not an attested turayaavan.
The proposed root yu may be identical with the root yaa, if yaa has an extension yaa-v-an. Yaavan of this root must have fused with Yaavan (AV) of yu=to expell. The AV has Yaavan and Yaavana of the last root, KYV MS has yavana. This form yavana is identical as yavana (AV) of yu=to unite, to yoke. The form yaavana of this last root is attested in classical Skt, identical in form to the AV word of the other root.
Coming to the horse connection, to which Francesco objects as a late derivation, with an ancient root yu, see: ni-yuÌt- [f] `team of horses, chariot' (RV+)! If Vedic yu means to yoke, it is very easy to come to horses yoked to chariots, as in niyut. And this root yu joins easily the meaning of yu = to move swiftly.
Anyway, one can see that yu=to expell and yu=to unite, to yoke have identical forms. With yaa=to move if yaa-v-an is an extension of yaa, there is a third Vedic root involved, dragging juu=to move swiftly and horse race, connecting also to yu=to yoke, also in the process of making the ethnonym Yavana.
Conclusion
The Vedic word Yavana as expellers (of DveSha, Agni being the Yaavan or expeller of yaatumavat or sorcerors) may have fused with Yavana as swift movers (horse connection, but also of aggressive Maruts. Also fusion with the synonymous word javana) as a designation of the Yavana Gana.
The Yavanas as expellers, separators (active meaning) were later on themselves considered as separated (passive meaning: Avestan: YAv. viiuta- [ppp]; yuto [adv] `separately' , Middle Persian: jwdy, (Buddh.) ywdt /jud/ `separated, divided'), when they came under tremendous Iranic (Zoroastrian and Achaemenid) influence. In this sense, Yavana as separated, reminds me of the word ava-gaNa mfn. separated from one's companions, isolated MBh. iii, 4057 (the moral dimension is added then: ava-guNa mfn. deficient in good qualities (= ava-gaNa). Is this older, epic AvagaNa connected somehow with the much later AvagaaNa of Varahamihira?
Remember that the older Law Book of Gautama remembers Yavana as an indigenous Kshatriya Varna. The connection with Shudra (and not Mleccha in Gautama DS!) points also to its indigenous origin. The Yavanas are enumerated together with Pârashavas, Yavanas, Caranas, and Shûdras. None of the Varnas mentioned in IV.16-21 do refer to any foreigner, but rather of a mixture of indigenous Varnas and Jatis. Parashavas or connected with parashu or the axe of a woodcutter.
As frontier people (paccantima) they became degenerated in the eyes of the immediately adjoining main land (majjhima). The pre-Alexandrian Ganapatha remembers Yavanas as Munda, unlike the hairdress of (Indo-)Greeks. The Majjhima Nikaya mentions that the Yonas call their varna Arya! Did the Greeks consider themselves as such? No reference to this with the Greaco-Roman historians.
The first (attested) Greek to be connected with the word Yona is Antiochus in ca. 250 BCE. He is called Yona-raja = king over Yona people and their Janapada. His 4 Greek collegues are simply called Raja! Compare this with the Indo-Greek Menander in the Milindapanha. In that work he is simply called Raja, king of Yona country (Yonanam). But his 500 elite soldiers, mercenaries from Yonanam, are called Yonakas. Or compare with the Indo-Greek Antialcidas. He is called simply Maharaja, but it is Heliodora, son of Diya, who is the Vaishnavite Yona and ambassador to king Bhagabhadra.
Also contrast the clear Greek names of Greeks and Indo-Greek kings and those of the Yonas: Yavanaraja Tushaspha. Heliodorusâ may have adopted a Greek name under influence of the powerful status of the Indo-Greeks ruling over Yona country up to Taxila. The Milindapanha has these names for Yonas: Anantakâya (Yonako), Devamantiya (Yonako), Mankura (Yonako) and Sabbadinna or Dinna (Yonako). It knows the Yonakâ as tribe., and Saka-yavana as the countries (Seistan-Arachosia/Quetta. Compare with Shaka-yavana of Patanjali. Shakas are attested before the Scythian invasion of the 1st century BCE in the NW).
See what Himanshu Ray has to say on this: âA vast body of Kharoshthl inscriptions found at several sites in the north-western region of the sub-continent are not much help either The term Yavana seldom occurs in these records, dated to the first few centuries of the Christian era, but the names of the donors are undoubtedly of Greek origin.â Ray adds: âThe Swat relic vase inscription of the first century B.C. records the establishment of the relics of the Sakyamunl by Theodoros, ⦠An engraved stone from Bajaur, south-east of Jalalabad, reads "of king Theodamas". .. The Kaldarra inscription records the laying of a tank by Thaidora or Theodoros, the Datiaputraâ.
But when Yavana is applied, see what Ray says: â â¦Karle 314 and date from the first century A.D , the donors have Indian names such as Dhamadhaya, Chulayakha, Sihadhaya and Yasavadhana. At Nasik cave XVII (dated after 110 A.D ), Indragnidatta, son of Dhammadeva the Yavana..â
Indo-Greeks seem to retain their Greek names, but it is the Yonas who adopt names from other cultures, the vaste majority being Indic (or some Iranic, and a few Greek, like the name Heliodorus).
Compared to the doubtful etymologies for Ionian, the etymology of yavana is much better and logical. In Yavana we have a normal indigenous development of fusion of ideas and meanings which we can observe in many other words or ideas (aspects of Indra absorbed in Vishnu-Krshna, etc.etc.)
Besides, all the different Indian works point to the indigenous character of Yavanas. In the Law Books and epic they started as Kshatriyas, becoming Vratya Kshatriyas (or Dasyus) and then Vrshalas (VrSHa = chief/king of its class, derigatory VrSha-la = lesser chief) and becoming Shudras.
In short, Ionian as Yauna doesn't seem to have been known to Indians at all before Alexander. After Alexander, it does seem that the Indo-Greeks were rather known through the central country they were ruling over, which was Yona Janapada. And Yona Janapada can not be equated with Bactria, it is always within the subcontinent, close to the Indus area. Supporting my theory that Yona Janapada must have been somewhere in Baluchistan with one center perhaps close to Quetta, extending its territory up to Kandahar. (Patanjali's Shakayavana lends support to the identity with Seistan-Arachosia/Baluchistan)
And this is in complete agreement with the Mahabharata and Pali literature: Yona-Kamboja-Gandhara is the frontier line of India from south to the north of the (western bank of the) Indus Valley: Baluchistan-Gomal/Bannu Valley-Kabul/Swat Valley! The Achemenids did conquer the trans-Indian Thatagu (Gomal/Bannu Valley) and Gandara (Kabul/Swat Valley) and the cis-Indus Hindu (Taxila, Multan) areas, but the Baluchistan of the Yavanas remained out of their reach.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/5l4fmq
My paper at ICIH 2009
The Pernicious effects of the Greek Synchronism on the Indic Weltanschuung
Kaushal, The link does not seem to work. I am not able to access the doc.
<b>Unravelling the Shabala and Sagara Episodes</b>
Something happened which caused Kambojas to change their custom from
dakshinatah kapardin in the Paraskara Grhyasutra to the mundah of the
Ganapatha. The influence of the Bhrgu Kavis in the west is the key factor.
Perhaps coupled to this is a war that occurred some time in the west between Ganas, in which a king Sagara was victorious. He is not the ancient king Sagara of Ayodhya, because that was an ancient war between Yadavas and the rest (Kashi-Koshala-Kanyakubja) for supremacy of the Middle country.
The second Sagara or Sagara II, if connected with Ikshvakus, must be a southern (descendants of Yauvanashvas of Mahishmati, one of which may have been Mucukunda in the Kalayavana episode) or western Ikshvaku (descendants of Bharata of Gandhara). Thus, the Sagara episode has nothing to do with the ancient Sagara I and eastern Ayodhya, but with a much later Sagara II (Samudrasena of the MBh?) of the southwest or northwest.
The defeated Ganas, as per Sagara episode, had to change their hairstyle = lost their previous ritual status. Kambojas became mundah.This points to Bhrgus and other Vipras of the frontier states adjoining the Indus becoming the Purohitas of these defeated Vipra Ganas, because they themselves were deprived of this status.
Is there a trace of Kambojas, Yavanas, etc. to their former status before they became the fallen Kshatriyas of the Dharmasmrtis? Yes, there is. We have it in the form of two episodes narrated in the epics: the Shabala and Sagara Episodes. The Shabala Episode gives a surprising origin, see below.
<b>I. Ritual Panca-Ganas connected with the Holy Cow Shabala</b>
Valmiki Ramayana I.55.2-3
tasyaa humkaarato jaataaH kaambojaa ravi sannibhaaH |
uudhasaH tu atha saMjaataaH pahlavaaH shastrapaaNayaH || 1-55-2
yonideshaat ca yavanaH shakrdeshaat shakaaH tathaa |
romakuupeSHu mlecchaaH ca haariitaaH sa-kiraatakaaH || 1-55-3
"From the 'hums' of her mooing Kaamboja-s similar to sunshine are born, from her udder Pahlava-s wielding weaponry are born, from the area of her privates Yavana-s, likewise from her rectal area Shaka-s, and from her hair-roots Mleccha-s, Haariitaa-s along with Kirataka-s are issued forth."
This explanation literally doesn't make sense. The poet used this symbolism to give information of another level. The Holy Cow Kamadhenu as Shabala or Nandini is synonymous to Speech, especially Vedic Vac or Mantra. The different Ganas are connected to different parts of this Holy Cow=Vac. This is what is intended:
1. Kambojas: with Hum a mystical syllable used in spells and magical texts or sentences; in Vedic ritual used immediately before the singing of the Prastâva or prelude as well as during the chanting of the Pratihâra or response ShrS. MBh. Kâv. &c.
"humbhA" of the cow is a stobha that is used in gANa-s of the jaiminIya sAmaveda. In the soma ritual there is a long gAna composed on indraM id gathino bR^ihat... where the stobha-s humbhA are inserted as the "roar of the vR^iShabha". It is possible that vAlmIki had that in mind. (HH)
2. Pahlavas: with Uúdhas N. of a passage in the Mahânâmnî (q.v.) verses LâTy
3. Yavanas: with Yóni N. of the sound e Up.; N. of a partic. verse or formula KâtyShr
4. Shakas: not with shakr but rather with Shákvarii f.pl. (wrongly written shakkarii or sharkarii) N. of partic. verses or hymns (esp. of the Mahânâmnî verses belonging to the Shâkvara-Sâman) RPrât. Gobh.; sg. a cow AV. PaJcavBr. (cf. Naigh. ii, 11) [shákvara = bull]
5. Mleccha Haritas and Kiratakas: with Loman [=roman] du. (with bharad-vaajasya) , N. of Sâman ÃrshBr.
These Shlokas of the Kamadhenu/Shabala episode seem to imply that at some time Ganas who were originally connected with ritual Mantra types, at another later time took to arms. Surprisingly, Kiratakas are also amongst these groups. The word `Shastra' above doesn't denote `arms' or `weaponry', but a recitation of a Hotr: shastrá n. (for 2. under shas) invocation, praise (applied to any hymn recited either audibly or inaudibly, as opp. to stoma, which is sung, but esp. the verses recited by the HotRi and his assistant as an accompaniment to the
Grahas at the Soma libation) VS. Br. ShrS. ChUp.; reciting, recitation ShâGkhBr. The hand is used as a sign to indicate with the word "eShaa=this is the last verse" that the preceding Stotra is followed by the Shastra.
That Vipras took to arms is not surprising. We have, for instance, the Gopayana section fighting in the Mahabharata. (also the Kambojas) Yavanas later adopted a Gargya as their Adhipati.
These Shlokas give the missing information about some Brahmakshatra and Kshatra Ganas which later turned out to be fallen Kshatriyas of the early Kalpasutras and later Dharmashastras.
We know that there were indigenous Shakas in the subcontinent much before the time of the foreign Scythian incursion of the 1st century BCE. Katyayana (shakaparthiva or Shaka king), Panini (kantha in Ushinara and Varnu) and Ganapatha (g. shaNDikaádi) refer to Shakas. Also AV Parishista.
King Sagara II debarred them all from the study of Vedic text and scriptures. (niHsvaadhyaaya vaShaTkaaraaH krtaastena mahaatmanaa || Harivamsha 1.14.17), see below.
<b>II. Debarring the Panca-Ganah from Veda</b>sagaraH svaaM pratijnaaM cha guroH vaakyaM nishamya cha |
dharmaM jaghaana teShaaM vai veSha anyatvaM cakaara ha || 1-14-15
arddhaM shakaanaaM shiraso muNDaM krtvaa vyasarjayat |
yavanaanaaM shiraH sarvaM kaambojaanaaM tathaiva cha || 1-14-16
paaradaa mukta-keshaaH cha pahlavaaH shmashru-dhaariNaH |
niHsvaadhyaaya vaShaTkaaraaH krtaastena mahaatmanaa || 1-14-17
Holding on to his own pledge to root out incompatibles, also keeping
the promise given by his mentor to the same folks in view, sagara let
them off ordering a different identity for them. He ordered half-
shaved heads to shaka-s; clean-shaven heads to yavanA-s; pArada-s and
kAmbojA-s (sic) to hang their head hair loose; pahlavA-s shall grow beards.
He debarred them all from the study of Vedic text and scriptures.
NOTE: Here we have another grouping, based on hairstyles or facial
hairs. The translation is not correct here: Yavanas and Kambojas both
have Munda (!) here. Shakas have Ardha-Munda. Paradas have their hair
straight (Pulasti?), and Pahlavas have Smashru hair, pointing
normally to facial hair (beard and/or moustache)
That both Yavana and Kamboja are Munda points to a post-Paraskarya
Grhya Sutra date, as in that work Bhrgus have Munda and Kambojas have
Dakshinatah Kapardin like all the Aupamanyavas. (that points to the
Humkara or recitation fase in the Nandini Episode in the Ramayana,
when Yavanas were connected with Yoni formula).
He, Sagara II, debarred them all from the study of Vedic text and scriptures.
This means that these Mahatmanaa (Ganaah) lost their Vipra status and right to perform VaSHaT and Svadhyaya, and became Kshatriyas. This is a stage when, according to the Shantiparva these groups followed the Dasyu Dharma, not very different from Arya Dharma. (perhaps coming under influence of proto-Iranic Daeva religion). Then they turned towards the Vrshala-tva or lesser Vrshastatus which gave them their Shudra position. (Zoroastrian influence during Achaemenids?) During Asoka Piyadassi they again came under Indian influence, getting (hybrid) Sanskrit and Prakrit names.
Thank you very much Ishwa, you rock!
Now, will you call the below men muNDa or ardha-muNDa?
<img src='http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20668/20668-h/images/p118.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<!--QuoteBegin-Kaushal+Nov 2 2008, 10:03 PM-->QUOTE(Kaushal @ Nov 2 2008, 10:03 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> http://preview.tinyurl.com/5l4fmq
My paper at ICIH 2009
The Pernicious effects of the Greek Synchronism on the Indic Weltanschuung
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Sorry my mistake , google does not permit publishing of pdf documents at this time. I will have to upload it to my website. I do not wish to put the word document in the public domain. i will try tp place it in my blog
try this
http://tinyurl.com/preview.php?num=5jrvop
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Nov 3 2008, 04:56 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Nov 3 2008, 04:56 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Thank you very much Ishwa, you rock!
Now, will you call the below men muNDa or ardha-muNDa?
<img src='http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20668/20668-h/images/p118.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
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Thanks, Bodhi. It took quite some time to collect the information. The Yavana issue seemed for me too important on many grounds, especially chronology, to let it go.
About the Shikha, it looks like Arddha-MuNDa. In order to understand the different hairstyles, I have made this scheme:
A. Shikha or hairstyle with tuft
I. A-MuNDaH or unshaven
1. Pulastin loose hair with the lock twisted on the side or back
2. Kapardin knotted hair with the tuft on top, side or back
II. MuNDaH or shaven
1. only a Backlock
2. only a Front-or sidelock?
III. Arddha-MuNDaH or half-shaven
1. Backside tail
2. fronttail
B. A-shikha or tuftless hairstyle
1. Pulastin without tuft
2. MuNDA without tuft
Does it make sense?
<!--QuoteBegin-Ishwa+Nov 4 2008, 01:37 AM-->QUOTE(Ishwa @ Nov 4 2008, 01:37 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->It took quite some time to collect the information.[right][snapback]89743[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Don't let it go to waste as posts in a forum (posts are not permanent and not easily accessible for one thing). Why don't you contact someone like, oh I don't know Srikant Talageri, and send them all the data you've collected and which you've shared here?
11-04-2008, 03:59 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-04-2008, 04:21 PM by Bodhi.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Nov 4 2008, 01:12 PM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Nov 4 2008, 01:12 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Ishwa+Nov 4 2008, 01:37 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ishwa @ Nov 4 2008, 01:37 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->It took quite some time to collect the information.[right][snapback]89743[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Don't let it go to waste as posts in a forum (posts are not permanent and not easily accessible for one thing). Why don't you contact someone like, oh I don't know Srikant Talageri, and send them all the data you've collected and which you've shared here?
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Husky, Ishwa has already generated enough discussion (ripples?) among researchers with his new findings. He has succesfully challenged one of the founding cornerstones of greece-centric assumptions of Indology, that is "ionian = yavana" due to which many were force-fitting many important events and persons of Historic India to a late date, and one primary source of confusion about history in purANa-s -- to mention just one repercussion of the mistake. Many are now looking again at the issue.
11-04-2008, 04:33 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-04-2008, 04:41 PM by Husky.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Nov 4 2008, 03:59 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Nov 4 2008, 03:59 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Husky, Ishwa has already generated <b>enough</b> discussion (ripples?) among scholars with his new findings. He has succesfully challenged one of the founding cornerstones of greece-centric assumptions of Indology, that is "ionian = yavana" which were retro-fitting the dating of many important events to a late date, and one primary source of confusion about history in purANa-s.
[right][snapback]89759[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Mere discussion is not sufficient, Bodhi. All such information by Ishwa and any others like him - after being processed (perfected: double-checked, logically organised, referenced, edited, spell-checked) - should be preserved in referenceable data collections. E.g. officially published books (if no journals will deign to present the findings of sincere and ardent 'Hindoo' researchers).
Letting such things be brought up in discussion fora/lists (however official) <i>alone</i>, doesn't lend it the distinction of being something reliable/official, but more like something that was thought worthy of talking about or - at best - something for temporary consideration. Just bringing it up in lists means that someone else's meagre response may be taken as a final say-so by people in the future and then that will be that: "Oh, you mean the arguments made by that one Indoo Ishwa? Yes, they were interesting while they lasted, but it turned out his ideas didn't matter after all, because the last post #2010 in the SuperIE list was by the all-knowing Wienerschnitzel of SS-fame who said that Ishwa was a Hindoo and didn't even know the proper accent with which PIE was spoken. Can you imagine. Moving on. Numenor being the Original Homeland..."
Worthwhile ideas deserve a proper casement that make them referenceable, that lend them the exterior credibility they already have in their essence. His findings deserve to be not only discussed but expanded upon and incorporated by others who are not biased.
Why should such Hindus' findings be accorded any less distinction? If Steve "What Does It Really Know About Samskritam" Farmer wrote anything it would be made official, people would be citing him left and right. But Ishwa, who actually worked and mined useful knowledge - being a Hindoo - his ideas will never be allowed to make it past discussion, they will be discarded as soon as certain elements can find some fudge for their inconvenience.
Ishwa, I still think you ought to hunt down Mr Talageri's email and send him all your posts here. If I were him, I'd be pleased to learn all of what you've found and he may even contact you to help him in his future work. (Of course, if I were him, I'd then finally be able to understand all of what you wrote too, but never mind that.) Alternatively, try Dr Kalyanaraman. Or, I don't know - whoever won't shoot you down on account of your dastardly cleverness being a nuisance to their comfortable thinking routines.
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