Hindu Seer and related discussion only

01-13-2005, 12:16 AM

QUOTE4. there is no instrinsic evil in the world - all that happens is for the ultimate good. 
A little wisdom is very dangerous. At the highest level of Nirguna Brahman there is no evil. But in this world of mAyA where we are, it is there everywhere, opposing the good. If you start mixing up the levels, then you become the tool of the evil. It suits evil just fine if people start saying 'there is no evil' People not seated in the highest consciousness, but trying to practice 'there is no evil' cause a lot of harm all around. They are open to justifying any wrong, any perversion if it suits them.

I have personally been at the recieving end of a 'I see no evil' person. That person also thought egotistically that she was a highly evolved soul. This egotism, combined with her conviction that she is spiritually very advanced, wreaked a lot of pain all around when she started seeing no evil in untruth, manipulation and moral relativism.

Now I know what is the source of your moral relativism. Nothing is evil according to you, phew. Then why do you get worked up over brahmin caste discrimination. According to your wisdom, it can't be evil. So stop critcizing anything. Nothing is evil, right! Devil will be mighty pleased if people fell for this.
QUOTEOur hands are full with caste discrimination, poverty and now this tsunami thang.
What happened?? I thought 'caste descrimination' wasn't evil according to your wisdom.
QUOTEAshok, I dont think there has been a blatant abuse of power and the justice system. It clearly shows now that the system is slow, but working.
Sophistry again! The police are under Jayalalitha, people in Tamilnadu are afraid of her autocratic ways, including DMK. It is the supreme court that has given the relief not the police-politician-judiciary apparatus of Tamilnadu. The part of the system that worked was supreme court. It doesn't absolve other parts of their blame. If you refuse to acknowledge the abuse you are siding with it.
QUOTEThe SC has not agreed anything, except that bail cannot be denied, which is the right thing to do. Nothing more to read into this.
Again sophistry! Read SC judgement carefully.
QUOTEWhy dont you see the kanchi sampradaya as just another Hindu sampradaya, one of hundreds, and whether it lives or not does not make the big Hindu picture change! I give it a 0.04% influence on Hinduism, just no more importance than any one of those beachside Hindu temples washed away by the tsunami. Even Adi Shankara in just a grain of sand on a long beach of a galaxy of Hindu saints and sages. Why dont you see this view?
Whatever doubts I had about you have been removed. You would cook up anything to 'justify' whever happens to be convenient for you. Bhandasura would be proud. It is sickening that you see an opportunity for yourself in destruction of Hinduism even by 0.04% (sic).

Even if each saint is just a grain of sand, so what!! Why should one lessen the reverence for them?

Since you see someone of Adi-Shamkara's high stature as a 'grain of sand', you must feel that you are a mountain yourself! You need an ego-treatment fast.... Read saptashatI or lalitopakhyanam to find out how demons think about parA-shakti herself.

QUOTESiddha.com.my serves as an entry portal to saivism for non-Indians. The Iskcon and Bochasanwasi websites serves as an entry portal for vaishnavism. If you are a Sakta, why dont you start one for Saktism, Ashok. Make it mirror mine. 
No thank you. I don't have any desire to help inflate others' egos or mine. But just for the record, I am not really inspired by siddha.com site.

01-13-2005, 08:52 AM

And to cut things short, this is my response Ashok.

My charge of guru dhroham stands, and the sampradaya is broken. To me all these things were eminently clear right from the initial days. JS and VS are doing it all by themselves. No one else is to be blamed. Blaming the police and judiciary is the real sophistry. Do not turn a blind eye to what VS has done and what he will do next. He will implicate JS and humiliate him with the expose' on JS with women.

Every Hindu has a right to be angry at them. These people shall not represent Hinduism in any way and its better they leave. They will not teach us nor speak to us about vedanta. They need not tell us what are Hindu sastras, or about caste, karma and god's will. We are tired of hearing 'sri bhagavaan uvaaca'. We are vindicated, as we knew all along that they had no clue. Even right now, instead of donating generously, and rushing toconsole people in the coasts, clearing the debris and cremating the bodies of the dead and dogs, the chandramouli puja seems more important. They just dont know where Lord Chandramouli is! And to think that countless fools rushed to touch their feet when we told them otherwise, and rushed to educate us on dharma, and rushed to make rash pronouncements on our views. They too didn't have a clue. They still dont.

Pathma

Betrayal Tape Leaked

- By R. Bhagwan Singh

Chennai, Jan. 12: In an apparent counter to the negative press and public opinion that resulted from the Supreme Court granting bail to Kanchi Shankaracharya Jayendra Saraswati, the Tamil Nadu police on Wednesday "leaked" to two private TV channels clips from the seer's alleged confession while in police custody in the Sankararaman murder case.

<b>"I had brought him up with much care and affection, but in turn he showed no concern for me when I was arrested. </b> Instead, he was only asking you whether he and his younger brother Raghu would also be arrested. Is this the way he must repay his guru," the Shankaracharya is shown telling his police interrogators in the video clip. He was referring to the "betrayal" by his junior, Sri Vijayendra Saraswati.

In the video clip, repeatedly shown on Sun TV news channel, the seer admits that the junior pontiff and Raghu had messed up mutt affairs. He also points out that Sankararaman, in one of his letters threatening to expose the misdeeds in the mutt, had offered peace if only Raghu was sent out. While never admitting his own involvement in the murder, the seer is shown in the video clip as saying, "I never
said beat him or kill him, but only expressed my anguish (at his letters) but it brought such an extreme reaction."

To a question from the officer (who was not shown in the TV clip) on whether it was right for the revered swami (may be referring to Vijayendrar) to indulge in questionable activities, including relationships with women, the senior seer remained silent. Lying on a mat covered with a yellow sheet, the pontiff appeared pained and in anguish.

The "leaking" of the video clip, that too to Sun TV, which is controlled by the Opposition DMK's Maran family, could be a clever ploy by the police to salvage public opinion after the Supreme Court picked large holes in the prosecution's case while granting bail to the Kanchi seer on Monday. The motive could also be to expose the differences between the two pontiffs and justify the arrest of Vijayendrar and his brother Raghu.

Photographs of the seer's "confessions" to the police were "leaked" to the popular Nakkheeran Tamil magazine last month. On Wednesday, the video clips were also leaked to the English news channel Headlines Today.

http://asianage.com/

Video excerpts of Kanchi Acharya's custodial interrogation telecast

By Our Special Correspondent
CHENNAI, JAN.12. Several television channels, notably Sun TV, today showed excerpts from the video recording of the custodial interrogation of the Kanchi Sankaracharya, Sri Jayendra Saraswathi, by the police in November 2004.

The Acharya was heard complaining that the junior Sankaracharya, Sri Vijayendra Saraswathi, did not show any concern for him when he was arrested in the Sankararaman murder case. Sri Vijayendra only wanted to make sure that neither he nor his brother would be arrested in the case and that he had failed to show solicitude for his elderly guru, Sri Jayendra Saraswathi said.

During the videographed interrogation, the Kanchi Acharya also revealed that he had knowledge of and agonised over the letters written by Sankararaman against him. The Acharya said he had only spoken of his anguish at the letters written by Sankararaman and that he had not asked that Sankararaman be beaten, stabbed or slashed. Even for this, there was a "reaction."

Sun TV, which telecast a 10-minute clip, announced that a compact disc was delivered at its office on Wednesday afternoon. Although the channel wrote to the Director-General of Police and the City Police Commissioner about the compact disc and enquired whether it could be telecast, no objection was received.
http://www.hindu.com/2005/01/13/stories/...190100.htm
Accounts frozen

Kancheepuram, PTI: The operation of bank accounts of the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam in various banks here were frozen as per instructions from the Tamil Nadu Government, the mutt sources said here on Wednesday.

Sources said the mutt authorities came to know about the order only when they were unable to operate mutt accounts in some of the banks here.
http://deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jan132005/i1.asp

01-13-2005, 11:13 AM

For all Blah Blah on this thread. A Shankaracharya's duty is to serve only Brahman. And people around him should facilitate this and protect him from all rubbish. He has every right to blast things out his way that impedes his Athma Samskara, JJ & TN are trivial compared to duties of a real Sanyasin. Is he a real Sanyasin? It is better to start a new leaf, a new place and protect it. The real Kyshathriyas are really missing. TN has a great spiritual merit. people should improve upon it if not preserve what remains. It is only a matter of time TN will be hell hole if people dont work at fixing it. The other day I was travelling in an Auto in Madras, this driver was very rude, I was equally rude to him. My companion driver says you should not say such things to Auto Drivers. Brahmins have brought this upon themselves.

I am not discriminating please, there are many Conmen in Madras including Brahmins

01-13-2005, 11:25 AM

Edited the previus post cannot delete this somehow.

01-13-2005, 11:56 AM

I was hoping that JS would change the successor and appoint a new one. But that seems unlikely now, as it would infuriate VS, who would further implicate JS and seal his fate.

JS has no choice but to shut the mutt down.

Pathma

Sunder · 01-13-2005, 01:12 PM

QUOTE(Pathmarajah @ Jan 13 2005, 11:56 AM) JS has no choice but to shut the mutt down. 
Jayendral is wise enough to know his options.

Sunder · (This post was last modified: 01-13-2005, 01:20 PM by Sunder.)

QUOTE(Vajramuni @ Jan 13 2005, 11:13 AM) A Shankaracharya's duty is to serve only Brahman.

I am not discriminating please, there are many Conmen in Madras including Brahmins 
First. Please do not lecture on what a duties of a Shankarachaya should or should not be. I thought of telling you this a while ago, but refrained from doing so. A Sanyasi has all the right to destroy this universe, and yet not get attached. A Sanyasi is not bound by rules. Definitely not Shankaracharya - who laughed off the villagers who said he could not cremate his birth mother.

And now we have every tom, dikk and harry talking about how a Shankaracharya should behave, or what his DUTIES should be.

I am not discriminating here, there are lots of morons in Tamilnadu, including some from DK, DMK, AIADMK.

01-13-2005, 03:14 PM

Hope it did not twitch your nerve a little too hard. As a special person selected to worship Chandramouleswarar. Why is'nt Chandramoulserwarar coming in this swamis need of the hour. One must realize God before one becomes a Shankaracharya. This man got what he deserved. More is in stake for him. I feel the Hindu pain, but I cannot admit this. Infact I will be the one who will put this man down.
[Edited: Watch it Vajra - Admin]

01-13-2005, 10:03 PM

QUOTEMy charge of guru dhroham stands, and the sampradaya is broken.

Pathma,

I don't want to challenge your reading comprehension. But what is the judicial case against the Shakaracharyas senior and junior, remind me!

Is it:
1. Caste discrimination
2. Guru droha
....

Shankaracharyas, senior and junior, are being charged about all possible things by moral-relativists here, but what is police-politician-judicial appartus charging them for? Why were they in jail for? And what are you supporting the police-politician-judicial abuse of the system for?

Hypocrisy, thy name in Sanskrit is Bhanda.

01-13-2005, 10:10 PM

QUOTEInfact I will be the one who will put this man down. 

If you keep even a tiny fraction of the vows you made, I am sure you can win the highest award here:
http://www.darwinawards.com/

By the way, are you from Bangalore, Kerala?

Sunder · (This post was last modified: 01-13-2005, 10:22 PM by Sunder.)

QUOTE(Vajramuni @ Jan 13 2005, 03:14 PM) As a special person selected to worship Chandramouleswarar. Why is'nt Chandramoulserwarar coming in this swamis need of the hour. 
In Christian mythology, there is a character called Jesus (aka Mitra, or Jeboshua ben Panthera) he was a devotee of god, and was convicted and nailed to a crucifix for blasphemy.

The God he prayed to did not come to his rescue. According to the a character called pontius in the same mythology, Jesus got what he deserved.

Karmana gahano gathih..

01-13-2005, 10:20 PM

Some of the deepest statements are double edged swords. If superior levels to which they apply are mixed with lower levels, they become a potent tool of evil powers (AsurI shakti)

Let me elucidate what evil lurks in the careless believers of the following two maxims

1. There is no evil in the world
2. Everything that happens is God's will

The first really applies to those who are seated in the highest consciousness and the second applies only for those who have fully mastered 'surrender' to God's will.

For others, these same two high maxims become the tools of evil.

If not seated in highest consciousness, a person insisting 'there is no evil', can start seeing no evil in any untruth, any perversion, any cruelty that he lets his ego indulge in.

If not fully surrendered to God's will, a person who insists 'everything that happens is God's will', lets his own ego and desires dictate his actions, and he conveniently puts the blame for all his base actions on God!!

Unfortunately, the spiritual field is filled with such pretenders who delude others and even themselves.

01-14-2005, 12:50 AM

I am not going to explain with you anymore. If there is a being who punishes anyone, it is me. I am not smoking Hashish. Ask folks at Saag.org they will tell you. I can understand your anguish. Such an occurrence has never happened in India. All you pedantic scholars who discuss Vedas on the Internet are all set to go a very bad place. Vedas are only for special people, chanted with at most caution in the auspicious hour. This man is guilty. Look at the ROI for investing faith and money in this Mutt. A real Shankaracharya never behaves like this man behaved. Jesus What is it? There is no Jesus. I will start letting go of every dirty person and civilization. GOD help you? What did I say, No God aint helping you. I can sympathize with you folks your sort are that make Kali Yuga.
I am not angry with you as any devout Hindu who has invested faith, time & money would behave this way. Of course JJ is vindictive and no angle. Get Sringeri to help you out.

Take Care,

Vajra

Sunder · (This post was last modified: 01-14-2005, 01:10 AM by Sunder.)

QUOTE(Vajramuni @ Jan 14 2005, 12:50 AM) I am not going to explain with you anymore. If there is a being who punishes anyone, it is me. 
If.

Vajramuni, instead of posting riddles and teasers, do state your point. So far, I gather that you have already pronounced the Acharya guilty, even before the court has given it's verdict. The so-called evidence, fabricated by the TN police is ridiculous to say the least. What is your logic to unambiguously declare the Acharya guilty ? If so, do you have some info that the TN govt or the rest of the world does not have?

01-14-2005, 01:58 AM

QUOTEMy charge of guru dhroham stands, and the sampradaya is broken. To me all these things were eminently clear right from the initial days. JS and VS are doing it all by themselves. No one else is to be blamed. Blaming the police and judiciary is the real sophistry. Do not turn a blind eye to what VS has done and what he will do next. He will implicate JS and humiliate him with the expose' on JS with women.

To drive the point home, consider this:

I disagree with your portrayal of shaiva sampradaya. I think it is against the basics of Hinduism.

Does this mean I would be JUSTIFIED in supporting a false police case against you for say, stealing someone's goat.

Would it be justified???

Think before you let your fingers type away on the keyboard, exposing your sense of justice and truth, or lack thereof, even further.

01-14-2005, 02:16 AM

He is guilty in the eyes of GOD. This man asking someone to do the job can be a hearsay from a legal point. But, I know he did authorize it. He could simply have said " Avana Pooi PathetaVaa!" " Go he see him and come" From a legal perspective it mean nothing that incriminates him. But you get the idea. Lifestyle of a Shankaracharya is extremely difficult. This Bharathi teertha is GOD realized, you see an attendant around him always. Nobody touches him, except this person on occasions of need say haircut. You dont go about resolving Ayodhya dispute, Lord Rama cares less for Ayodhya Temple. But this is a Hindu country it will remain so into future. A Shankarachrya is a Treekala Gnani, he should have foreseen all these events and taken preventive actions. Tamil Police are on a witch hunt, and have seriously mishandled the investigation but that does not mean this man is not guilty.

Sunder · 01-14-2005, 02:39 AM

QUOTEHe is guilty in the eyes of GOD.
You now drag GOD into this case. and you are making an assertation that he indeed IS guilty in the eyes of GOD. All this talk without actually supporting your case with any reliable source.

QUOTEBut, <b>I know</b> he did authorize it.
Please do provide us with your source. Were you present in the room when he allegedly said "avanai poi patthuttu vaa" ? Or were you the one he was talking to ? Are you closely involved with this case, or are eligible to be a witness? If so, then place your claims, and how you came to be convinced of his guilt. Else, you are naive, and are just buying in to propoganda.

QUOTELifestyle of a Shankaracharya is exothermally difficult.
To whom? Difficult in what way ? Samsara is difficult, but not sanyasa.. Thus, please refrain from commenting on how an Acharya should be, or what he should eat.

QUOTEThis Bharathi teertha is GOD realized,you see an attendant around him always.
Now you bring in data that is totally useless to the point in discussion. We are talking about Kanchi Acharya, and how your conviction of his guilt. Realization or lifestyle is immaterial here. I seek to hear your foundation to the conviction.

QUOTEYo dont go about resolving Ayodhya dispute, Lord Rama cares less for Ayodhya Temple.
Please do not speak of what Rama cares for, and what he does not. Nor preach about what Rama's thoughts should be about Ayodhya.

QUOTEA Shankarachrya is a Treekala Gnani, he should have foreseen all these events and taken preventive actions.
Do not make up stuff as you like. Even without understanding the meaning of Trikaala Gnani, do not go about harping on the qualifications of an Acharya. All I asked you is to provide convincing proof (with source) that the Acharya is guilty.

QUOTETamil Police are on a witch hunt, and seriously mishandled the investigation but that does not mean this man is not guilty.
This sentense is self contradictory, it makes no sense at all, and definitely leaves me thinking if I will ever get a straight reply from you.

thanks for your time Vajramunir.

01-14-2005, 03:11 AM

And after the supreme court it is the turn of the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC)

NHRC pulls up TN govt on junior seer's arrest

QUOTEThursday, January 13, 2005 (Chennai):

The National Human Rights Commission has asked the Tamil Nadu government to explain the basis for the arrest of the junior Shankaracharya Sri Vijayendra Saraswati.

It has also asked the state government to clarify how television footage of the Shankaracharya being interrogated was leaked.

The Jayalalitha government has to answer the notice within the next two weeks.

Let me put this claim here:

In two weeks, TN government and police will have egg on their faces courtesy NHRC. What would the 'applauders' here do then?

Make omelette?

01-14-2005, 08:47 AM

Ashok,

As I said before, I dont want to discuss the evidence, the alleged crime, the bail as well as the motives of the TN govt. I am only pondering the ramifications. I am concerned about the ramifications to all Hindus all over the world. Newspapers here are splashed with these stories and we are having a hard time explaining. These events are putting us back years.

Regarding my charge of guru dhroham, I forsaw that and posted in this very thread about a month back. I was correct in my reading and JS himself has mentioned being let down by VS. Who wouldn't be if their very child or shisya ignores them during difficult times. What more is there to argue on this? JS must now act on his pronouncement of VS's betrayal. He cannot gloss it away.

Caste discrimination is a different issue and is not related here or to judicial case. But do get real. Caste discrimination is simply the only reason why Hindus are not reacting to the kanchi arrests.

[QUOTE]And what are you supporting the police-politician-judicial abuse of the system for?
[QUOTE]

And I keep telling you I am not supporting the TN govt or police, nor care not for their motives, and I am not on anybody's side. As far as this goes, my position is 'let the law prevail'. If anything my sympathies are with JS, as he has been betrayed, will be further betrayed and is a karmic victim here. But he is a big man, as only a big man can shoulder responsibilities and humiliation like this. He was chosen to face this task because he is a big man, unlike CS. (read my past posts on this thread)

But you will not be happy till I criticise and condemn the TN govt and police. Okay, yes, I condemn them for their politics, I condemn the DMK and the AIDMK, the Congress and Sonia and condemn all the bad things and corruption in India, all this in the same way I condemn caste discrimination and semitic proselytisation in India. I used to root for the BJP, but now I am losing hope and am thinking of rooting for the reemerged Jan Sangh.

Regarding 'shutting the mutt or not', - lets get real again. Mutt funds have been frozen. (did you miss that?) In days or a week, things will come to a standstill. Electricity may be cut. Monks there will be further demoralised and spiritual practices are not possible in such an environment. Soon monks will be walking out of the mutt causing even further embaressment, with more stories to tell. It may take a while for this order to be lifted. So better shut it even if its temporarily. Other seers have already asked JS to step down. Naturally VS too must step down. Since both are incapacitated now, or if both step down, who will run the mutt?

Regarding 'no intrinsic evil' and 'will of god', I have already explained that these are the 'ultimate' and 'highest macro Hindu view'. So no need to explain further. You also missed the word 'intrinsic'. These big events - the tsunami and kanchi arrests must be seen in this highest macro Hindu view.

You have attached yourself to kanchi and therefore feel slighted and let down. I am not attached to either side and could not care less who wins the trial. My point is the damage has been done, and a sampradaya has already been broken. You better come to terms with this Ashok and deal with it.

It is impolite and impertinent to say it, but I dont think these folks in kanchi are self realised persons. You better come to realise that its an empty tradition with no power in it. And so should all brahmins realise the charade they have been led thru and that everything that they stood for was a wrong premise. This is a wake up call. I dont mean any ill will when I say this, so please dont respond to this.

As you say, someone is going to get egg on their face soon. And I am saying there is already 'mud on your face, big disgrace,...' to the entire community. I have nothing to lose as I already warned of an impending big karma just some months ago and urged hasty reforms. Now I will go further and say there is much more coming very, very soon. No one will be spared. There is a simple karmic logic here - sooner or later something must happen to right all the wrongs, dont you think?

Regards.

Pathma

01-14-2005, 09:14 AM

I will let Ashok Kumar reply to the rest of the post.. But this caught my eye...

QUOTE I am not attached to either side and could not care less who wins the trial.

You are kidding, right ? You didnt forget your happy-days-are-here-again spiel, did you ? The drrrama.... uffffff !!!!!!

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