<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->No questions.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good. JS has always my sympathy as a person who bears his karma bravely.
Do you have any info on my questions. Thanks
Pathma
For Ashok Kumar:
<b>Shaktism</b> is one of the four primary sects of Hinduism. Shaktism's first historical signs are thousands of female statuettes dated ca 5500 BCE recovered at the Mehrgarh village in India.
Geographically, Shaktism has two main forms, the <b>Shrikula</b> "family of the Goddess Shri (or Lakshmi)," which respects the brahminical tradition (a mainstream Hindu tradition which respects caste and purity rules) and is strongest in South India; and the <b>Kalikula</b>, "family of Kali," which rejects brahminical tradition and prevails in Northern and Eastern India.
<b>Four major expressions of Shaktism</b> are evident today: folk-shamanism, yoga, devotionalism and universalism. Among the eminent mantras of Shaktism is: Aum Hrim Chandikayai Namah, "I bow to Her who tears apart all dualities."
No matter how well you spin your argument, much like Commie Pakis - using - Reformation; Discrimination; Caste & Race; Universal Values - It is a straighforward argument for <b>Entitlement with no Responsibilities</b>. Period.
Your solutions are so petty, they are not even worth considering. 'd much rather go floss my cat's teeth than listening these arguments bereft of logic, but everytime drafted in a way to win an argument or proposition but not to arrive at truth or a healthy working compromise.
Good luck <!--emo&:lol:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Entitlement with no Responsibilities<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go ahead and explain 'where is there entitlement without responsibilities'. When you can disengage from the cat, that is. <!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> They way I see it, ethics, responsibilities and disciplines are built into every profession.
All those comments of mumbo jumbo and spins are just born of scorn and disdain, expressing an impassive poor plea for the status quo. But I have already mentioned that the mathas and the priesthood 'have already lost the initiative for reforms', now merely unwilling spectators and sore losers.
Isn't that what you are now - being just a frightful lost spectator to the events? But I have the initiative, and I am really doing something, shaping events. Everyday I am reminded of this when I log on and check the mail; that there are respondents from all over the world, asking, encouraging and contributing and willing to learn and convert.
While you can offer mostly euro-constructs theories and concepts, I offer proof of the changes and of the loss of initiative; its there in Kalavai, its there in Vellore, its there in Pillaiyarpatti, in those padasalas in Pune and Mumbai, its there when the people rose to the occasion to meet the tsunami challenge.
So caught up in your books and theories, you just cant get out of the box. But you want to get in the way, throw a log in the path, offer jeers and sneers, and place 'another brick in the wall'.
When brahmin folks themselves admit to me, 'no one (brahmin that is) is shastrically correct', 'only one in ten brahmin priests mind you, do their sandhyas' - why then should I listen to you about responsibilities? When I observe this myself, and when I observe neighbouring brahmins hurting each other with words of abuse against the other mothers' that cannot be repeated in a public forum, when I see them doing pujas to plot each other's downfall, priests mind you - why should I listen to you on entitlement?
They are just people. Most ekeing out a living on miserable wages in miserable conditions, begging reform, but would leave the priesthood at the first chance of a better live as they cannot wait and be altogether done with it. So why should I listen to you when they have spoken so clearly?
In a country where the founding father, a man of peace and ahimsa, is killed in the name of religion, where the guards turn on and kill their own PM, when a PM is wacked on the head by a common soldier, then killed by another women, where the shisya turns against the guru, where the priests do all the things I mentioned, where Hindus scorn another - all this tells me this is a nation of heavy karmas - so heavy they cant see the way out of the abyss. Mostly sitting in the UK and America, they cant even make a difference between India and Hinduism, and dont know where to start, cant even make a difference between JS the man, and JS the seer, and greeting any suggestions with hostility.
Then there are the honest brahmin folks who want to reform, no insist on it, are willing to call a spade for wha it is, and urge us on. Once India is modestly developed, which I forsee (oops!) by 2010 or 2012, most of the priesthood would have automatically reformed.
On another issue, in all seriousness JS should have a psychiatric evaluation before he initiates a third acharya, and that too in the presence of magistrates. This is to avoid VS later challenging it, or himself appointing a third acharya.
Regards.
Pathma.
Pathma,
Quote:Sure the laws have to be implemented. But how many more years do you need before admitting failure?
I don't know there was some kind of a finish-line defined by you that the rest of the Indian nation has to adhere before admitting 'success' or 'failure'. One has only to look at the history of India in totality and the strides made in past 50+ years to see an emerging trend.
Will admit that a lot still has to be done but we are pretty ahead of other "ism's" and nations you favor advising/pressurising us.
Though if you are in a hurry, I'll recommend you send your Egyptian friend to the Mahila priest school in India pronto. Not sure as to what you are waiting for as you have stated in another thread. It could a small start in right direction.
Quote:Regarding international pressure, that is to remove the job reservation system which is itself entrenching casteism, as well as freeing the temples from govt control ONLY. Why do we have to view this negatively? I just dont see how the Indian govt is going to do this voluntarily. Unless they have a time frame to end reservations and control of temples
Indians are perfectly capable for opposing reservations, thank you. Check response to Mandal commissions of early 90s. There's a running thread on this forum too. Let the rest of the world clean it's own stable before they can even hold a candle to India.
Quote:I am not sure you are defending India or Hinduism. I'm making a clear disctinction between the two, and we are saying Hinduism is our business too
I don't see how 'international pressure' can be brought on Hinduism and not on India. As for these people from 'international pressure groups' what caste/creed/religion/idealogy do they suscribe to? Islam? Christianity? Judaism? Cool-aid drinking cult? Or those doning purple in a haste to meet their maker in a alien spaceship?
I'm not sure as to why you are putting yourself outside Hindusim as saying "it's our business too."
Quote:You know the billions the catholic church paid to settle the phedophile cases?
Sorry. Over hundred phedophile preists are still on the job tending 'the flock' - <b>in US alone</b>. And the Vatican has yet to come up with a firm condemnation and guidelines of handling this issue.
Quote:Good. JS has always my sympathy as a person who bears his karma bravely.
Correct me here Pathama. Within 24 hours of seers arrest when there was hardly any evidence published in media, you had a different position. Why this 180 degree now? Just curious.
Quote:and dont know where to start, cant even make a difference between JS the man, and JS the seer, and greeting any suggestions with hostility.
On Diwali day when you showed up with a baton to lead a parade to crucify JS, was it against 'JS the seer' or 'JS the man'.
Quote:Once India is modestly developed, which I forsee (oops!) by 2010 or 2012, most of the priesthood would have automatically reformed.
Can you define what you mean by 'modestly developed' cause one can say India's not 'modestly developed' even a hundred years from now or conversly it's 'modestly developed' today. Subject definitions lie in the eyes of the beholder.
Quote:In a country where the founding father, a man of peace and ahimsa, is killed in the name of religion,...
Abe Linclon? Joan of Arc? Jesus? Martin Luther King?
Quote:where the guards turn on and kill their own PM, ...
Familiar with rise and sikh militism in India? Or more importantly the cause for the same?
Quote:when a PM is wacked on the head by a common soldier, then killed by another women,
Wacking happened in Sri Lanka and the solider was Buddhist. And the one killed by women wasn't sitting PM.
Quote:all this tells me this is a nation of heavy karmas
Don't worry since there's no evil (per your own earlier post), people will do fine so no international pressure is needed. Trust you are referring to India here with 'nation' comment rather than Hinduism.
All these have not much to do with topic in question though it gives and idea of where your posts are coming from.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pathmarajah+Jan 24 2005, 03:43 PM-->QUOTE(Pathmarajah @ Jan 24 2005, 03:43 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> On another issue, in all seriousness JS should have a psychiatric evaluation before he initiates a third acharya, and that too in the presence of magistrates. This is to avoid VS later challenging it, or himself appointing a third acharya. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pathma, there was a time when I used to enjoy your posts. With this one, you have hit a new low. The content went from spewing bile, to empty ranting, and now this.
Take a moment to reflect. What has become of you? Where are you heading with this ? Are you willing to remain the person you have become ? You are capable of much higher things, and are definitely better than such base thoughts. I am concerned Pathma, bring your old self back.
Uttharetd Athmanatmaanam, na athmaanam avasaadhayet.
Atmaiva hyathmano bandhur, athmaiva ripuraathmana:
Elevate yourself with the help of the Self, do not degrade your Self.
For the Self is your best friend, and your worst enemy as well.
While picking petty issues on this forum, we momentarily tend to forget that we are all striving for the final Liberation, and carrying malice or low opinions on any individual does not harm anyone more than it harms ourselves.
I have said what I felt like. Now please do as you will. Yatha icchasi, thathaa kuru.
Ex-monk,
Dont know what I should address because you have scattered stuff all over the place. Anyway, my dad used to tell me this story about a dog who would walk under a bullock-cart and claim that he moves the cart. He never told me the dog claimed to be an ex-monk..
Coming to your latest spiel (mumbo-jumbo again), lets see..
(1) <i>Isn't that what you are now - being just a frightful lost spectator to the events?</i> - I am assuming you are saying this to Ram. This after really appreciating Ram's contributions to the hindu cause in the past. What can I say ? Its becoming a trend really, flip-flop-ex-monk.
(2) <i>I have the initiative, and I am really doing something, shaping events.</i> By planting stories thru IANS about how the 'think-tank' opposes falana-falana ???? Point to note : Ex-monk grows a big ego. Atleast here you are being consistent. It has always been about your ego, isnt it ? Keep claiming you move the bullock-cart, no harm in that - will help you deal with your issues. There are plenty who do that. Its all in a good cause, right ?
(3) What proof are you talking about ? The only proof, if at all, that is relevant to your case is when another quack from outside India came to 'pray' for India - to convert the demonic stupid hindoos of India. Thats who you are, man - for better or for worse.
(4) Nice try with rising-up-to-the-challenge bit trying to appropriate things for your 'cause'. "Karmic retribution for evil brahmins" on arrest while tsunami being just a "act of God", all over again, eh flip-flop-ex-monk ?! The way you are dead against India (nation of heavy karmas, per you) and Indian-hinduism one would have hardly expected you to appreciate the good deeds of hindus in India. But hey, that hasnt stopped you in the past, has it ? Why begin now ? So follow the playbook, flip-flop again..
(5) <i>Mostly sitting in the UK and America</i> -> you forgot malaysia.. <!--emo&:roll--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(6) <i>Once India is modestly developed, which I forsee (oops!) by 2010 or 2012, most of the priesthood would have automatically reformed.</i> Nice. I am sure you have already drafted a press-release for that eventuality. OK-ok dog you move the bullock-cart. Happy ?
PS : Serious advise, stop judging yourself (& ur work) from your email inbox. You wont believe the things I get in mine. If I start taking my inbox seriosuly I would start imagining that I am a big hunk with a foot long d1ck ready to have sex 24*7. Luckily, I use spam-filter.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pathmarajah+Jan 24 2005, 03:43 PM-->QUOTE(Pathmarajah @ Jan 24 2005, 03:43 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->When brahmin folks themselves admit to me, 'no one (brahmin that is) is shastrically correct', 'only one in ten brahmin priests mind you, do their sandhyas' - why then should I listen to you about responsibilities? When I observe this myself, and when I observe neighbouring brahmins hurting each other with words of abuse against the other mothers' that cannot be repeated in a public forum, when I see them doing pujas to plot each other's downfall, priests mind you - why should I listen to you on entitlement?
Pathma. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, much like you do not listen to anyone, you should not expect anyone to listen to you. This is what I mean - again - healthy, working compromise as a starting point.
Coming to other theories, whether Euro or Indo, when you positing a theory, it is upto you to frame it in a context firmly, till now this shape shifter, teflon based theories and arguments of yours do not make any sense. No one will believe you blindly and follow whatever you advocate; and definitely not me after the violence you so openly advocate.
<!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rolleyes.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->On another issue, in all seriousness JS should have a psychiatric evaluation before he initiates a third acharya, and that too in the presence of magistrates. This is to avoid VS later challenging it, or himself appointing a third acharya.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pathma,
When you became monk and later left priesthood, did your psychiatrist give you full report regarding your state of mind? Did he perform evaluation in court or in mental hospital?
Please let us know, how it is done as it seems you have experienced evaluation on regular basis.
People who use hearsay to misrepresent are liars and adding bad Karma in current life.
Evolve yourself from mean deeds and evil thinking against another human. Just reading some text and not implementing in life will not take you anywhere.
Go back and read GITA, VEDAS again and try to understand without ego and mind fill with evil thoughts.
I feel sorry for you and Karma you are doing now.
Thanks for the replies folks,
I see something better now. Less hostility somewhat and a bit more humour. And yes we are going of in a tangent a bit, but thats because I have to reexplain my views.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Though if you are in a hurry, I'll recommend you send your Egyptian friend to the Mahila priest school in India pronto. Not sure as to what you are waiting for as you have stated in another thread. It could a small start in right direction.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you Viren. I have to make sure the student is fully ready and this is not some fancy choice. Therefore it will take some years. Its easier now to train women priests, but like all wide eyed new converts, they want to serve in a Hindu temple too; and not just any temple but in the princetons and harvards of Hindu temples - Tirupati, Kasi, etc. This is going to be a problem as you know.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see how 'international pressure' can be brought on Hinduism and not on India. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
International pressure to force India to implement their own laws, to give up job reservations and relinquish control of temples. Why do you think its not a good idea? I need to hear.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Can you define what you mean by 'modestly developed' cause one can say India's not 'modestly developed' even a hundred years from now or conversly it's 'modestly developed' today. Subject definitions lie in the eyes of the beholder.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By 2010 the per capita income would be about $3,500, poverty levels below 10% and unemployment just below 4%. Thats means a majority of dalits too will not be in poverty. Jobs will be easier to come by and people will change occupations. I see priests leaving their traditional vocations creating a shortage and leaving the field open to non brahmins. Problem solved.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Correct me here Pathma. Within 24 hours of seers arrest when there was hardly any evidence published in media, you had a different position. Why this 180 degree now? Just curious.
On Diwali day when you showed up with a baton to lead a parade to crucify JS, was it against 'JS the seer' or 'JS the man'.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There has been no change of positions as Rajesh would like to imagine. As the seer JS has wrecked his sampradaya and laid bare the image of all brahmins, and the foundations of his sect and its empty traditions. If he is found guilty, he should be punished and that is welcome. Justice is always welcome. As you can amply see, I have not changed positions at all.
As a man who accepts and shoulders this heavy burden, his courage is to be admired and he has our sympathies for his karmas and for being betrayed. Thats all.
Sunder and Gargi,
I am merely saying that if JS does not have a psychiatric evaluation before appointing a third archarya, he opens himself to a challenge later by VS. VS can dispute the appointment of the third archarya claiming that JS was 'incapacitated' and 'mentally troubled' when appointing the third archarya. What is low about this good legal sense? Wills are challenged simply because this is not done. If you think its not a good idea, fine forget it, but we open up to the possibility of the 'war of the two acharyas', which I think is imminent.
And yes Gargi, psychiatric evaluations before writing wills are routine suggestions now, even in India (see Ambanis). And see how disturbed we are that we misunderstand even good suggestions.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->By planting stories thru IANS about how the 'think-tank' opposes falana-falana ????<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont know what you are talking about. K. Ram did good work and its to be appreciated, but in these recent kanchi events he is a mere spectator. Rest are your dad's imaginary dog's crap and your trademark. While you do good work in this forum with contributions, here, you, a moderator, try to wreck the thread. <!--emo&:o--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ohmy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
K.Ram,
For the third time in 4 months, I am asking please share with us how reform is 'entitlement without responsibilities'. And I have not advocated violence.
Inorder to keep to the topic, I'll respond to seer related issues only.
Pathma
Ex-monk,
If you are thinking that this thread is actually serving some useful purpose - its your blinkered vision. The only purpose this thread has served so far is so you can skip your daily calls of nature elsewhere and dump everything here. As if that was not enough you have even showed utter contempt for India and casteist bigotry of the worst kind. So unless somebody else can give me one good reason to keep this thread alive I am going to lock this thread by tomorrow.
PS : You very well know what I am talking about.
Pathma,
<!--QuoteBegin-Pathmarajah+-->QUOTE(Pathmarajah)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Viren+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Viren)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Though if you are in a hurry, I'll recommend you send your Egyptian friend to the Mahila priest school in India pronto. Not sure as to what you are waiting for as you have stated in another thread. It could a small start in right direction.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you Viren. I have to make sure the student is fully ready and this is not some fancy choice. Therefore it will take some years
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if it's going to take you couple years to make sure *one* student 'is ready' while those Mahila priest centers in India have already trained over 7000 women in past 15+ years, would you agree that they are working on reforms at a lot greater pace than you ever can? But here you are on this very page claim 'time up' when it comes to others working on reforms. A contradiction?
<!--QuoteBegin-Pathmarajah+-->QUOTE(Pathmarajah)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see how 'international pressure' can be brought on Hinduism and not on India.Â
<!--QuoteBegin-Viren+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Viren)<!--QuoteEBegin-->International pressure to force India to implement their own laws, to give up job reservations and relinquish control of temples. Why do you think its not a good idea? I need to hear.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, for one I've said earlier, I'd like those foreigners to clean their own house before they can start advising India. Nevertheless they do it and it's understandable. What's not understandable is a sane person like you advocating this.
Let me give you an example, in US, forty acres and mule were promised to the blacks over 150 years ago. Can your US friends put pressure on the local govt to get an inch (of land) for their black fellow citizens in say Detroit (Michigan - believe NavyaShastra was founded there)?
It's understandable that it's easier for them to work on 'putting pressure' on nation 10,000 miles away to implement it's laws - a profitable venture I might add. And there are Michigan based Paki PR lobby firms too that'll do this job for free too.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pathmarajah+-->QUOTE(Pathmarajah)<!--QuoteEBegin--> By 2010 the per capita income would be about $3,500, poverty levels below 10% and unemployment just below 4%. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wishful thinking. Check other so called 'industrialized' or 'developed' nations and check their existing class structure and you'll see this argument doesn't hold any water.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pathmarajah+-->QUOTE(Pathmarajah)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Thats means a majority of dalits too will not be in poverty. Jobs will be easier to come by and people will change occupations. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Take your idea of abolishing reservations (you have my uninanimous support) and see how many dalits will agree with you on the 'easier to come' statement. Check Vikram Masoon's own statements on Dalit leadership not co-operating on bringing forth reforms and you'll get your answers.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pathmarajah+-->QUOTE(Pathmarajah)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I see priests leaving their traditional vocations creating a shortage and leaving the field open to non brahmins. Problem solved.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem and solution you are putting forth fits like a square peg in round hole. In this globalised economy and evolving world this change is bound to happen. All fields are open to non brahmins if you look around and also it's an open season for anyone taking up this 'reform' cause commercially.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pathmarajah+-->QUOTE(Pathmarajah)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Viren+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Viren)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Correct me here Pathma. Within 24 hours of seers arrest when there was hardly any evidence published in media, you had a different position. Why this 180 degree now? Just curious.
On Diwali day when you showed up with a baton to lead a parade to crucify JS, was it against 'JS the seer' or 'JS the man'.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There has been no change of positions as Rajesh would like to imagine. As the seer JS has wrecked his sampradaya and laid bare the image of all brahmins, and the foundations of his sect and its empty traditions. If he is found guilty, he should be punished and that is welcome. Justice is always welcome. As you can amply see, I have not changed positions at all.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your joy and glee expressed with JS arrest was for 'JS the seer' (per your post) for "laying bare the image of brahmins, sects and empty traditions". But the seer was arrested and was/is on trial for murder!
Of course, justice is welcome - but for the crime committed and not some perceived prejudice.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->So if it's going to take you couple years to make sure *one* student 'is ready' while those Mahila priest centers in India have already trained over 7000 women in past 15+ years, would you agree that they are working on reforms at a lot greater pace than you ever can? But here you are on this very page claim 'time up' when it comes to others working on reforms. A contradiction?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, yes and no Viren. Here and there, about half a dozen padasalas have reformed as I mentioned before. Regarding my student, I have to make sure that she is a real convert and this is a real career choice, so I have to let her mull over it for some time, make a pilgrimage or two to India and see if that is what she really want before making that decision. I bet she wont, and would opt to be a sannyasini. If that happens, I'll send her to Amma.
Anyway, this is not a numbers game of how many converts we have. Even one is enough, if it is truly her path. This is the ultimate ethical conversion method; no force , no coercion , no promises. Take it or leave it! There are several more other students of many races but they are still a long way away.
The point I am making is that Hinduism is not ready to receive such persons with open arms, and until we can make the necessary reforms, we cannot win over the christians and muslims and India's woes with these people must continue. Hence the haste in reforming.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What's not understandable is a sane person like you advocating this.
Let me give you an example, in US, forty acres and mule were promised to the blacks over 150 years ago. Can your US friends put pressure on the local govt to get an inch (of land) for their black fellow citizens in say Detroit (Michigan - believe NavyaShastra was founded there)? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough. Injustice in other lands is no reason for us to close our eyes to our own people. We intervened in South Africa, in Tibet, and elsewhere. I asked the question, do we have cases in the world court? We are a signatory aren't we? What does this mean? It means we can sue the Indian govt and organisations in India, and vice versa. We need that as we need to sue the christians and muslims too. It works both ways.
Apart from pride, what reason is there for Hinduism to stay shy of human rights abuses and abuse of Hindu rights, and take action to resolve it? Has India to make these decisions only? Is not Nepal and Bali Hindu nations too?
Another reason I am giving; no nation in this globalised world is an island, immune from pressure. Surely you realise this? This has deep implications for growing India as she grows deeply intertwined with the rest of the world. India is now a trading nation and dependent on oil. Its an international dependency nation as most other nations already are. Knowing this, I am willing to go further and say that the common man in India would not object to intervention if his livelihood is not jeopardised and the politicians got rid off. Its the middle class and the politicians who have these 'arrogant nationalistic ideals', not even realising that its Malaysians that forced those concessions to built most of their highways, in return for India buying palm oil. Did you know this?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> By 2010 the per capita income would be about $3,500, poverty levels below 10% and unemployment just below 4%.
Wishful thinking. Check other so called 'industrialized' or 'developed' nations and check their existing class structure and you'll see this argument doesn't hold any water.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, these are World Bank forecasts, and its not wishful thinking as per Indian and asian economists too. Have some faith man. Per capita Income today is already $2,400. So its easily attainable. Discussed thoroughly in BR some years ago. When dalits are an empowered, structures will change. They will be the new paying patrons of the religion and what they say must happen. Brahmin priestly class unfortunately will mostly remain in poverty, hence they will leave the profession in numbers. Even now soon after the trial the exodus will begin.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Take your idea of abolishing reservations (you have my uninanimous support) and see how many dalits will agree with you on the 'easier to come' statement. Check Vikram Masoon's own statements on Dalit leadership not co-operating on bringing forth reforms and you'll get your answers.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right, the dalits and OBC's wont. Thats what I', saying too. Therefore the international pressure. You are right, dalits are divided into Hindu, christian and muslims and will not cooperate. Therefore the international pressure sans religious identity. Tell, me honestly, is there any other way? I am willing to listen.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In this globalised economy and evolving world this change is bound to happen. Field is open to non brahmins if you look around and it's an open season for anyone taking up this cause commercially.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here and therefore, yes I agree its an open field. I am asking now, is Tirupati, Kasi, Madurai and Sabarimalai open to Hindu priests of any race, sex, caste? This is the least we require and its non negotiable. Sooner or later there is going to be an Indian pope, and no matter what we must circumvent this. Its not enough to say we have a muslim president, a sikh PM, blah, blah.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Your joy and glee expressed with JS arrest was for 'JS the seer' (per your post) for "laying bare the image of brahmins, sects and empty traditions". But the seer was arrested and was/is on trial for murder! Of course, justice is welcome - but for the crime committed and not some perceived prejudice. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well. Its the tradition and its inherent fallacies that allowed the seer to apparently commit such a crime. As I said before, lets not just blame JS alone. He is the fall guy. I clearly blamed the whole sampradaya and its teachings, but absolved JS immediately because he was karmically chosen for such a task. But you probably missed those posts. The logic is, if there is something wrong in the foundation, teachings and practices, it will eventually show up. If there is something wrong in the DNA it will show up, no matter how long it takes. Therefore we face it and correct it. It now has and we will study the entire gamut.
No Rajesh,
Honestly, I dont know what you are talking about.
This thread is existing because of your carelessness and 'your egoistic' need to manure and goad it. Its BR all over again. I am not giving you a reason to keep it alive as your post is not seer related issues and therefore I wont respond. But this is all a tall man like you can do - close a thread. You worked hard for this and deserve a break. I'm a member of this forum, not this thread, but thats gots nothing to do with you as a moderator, has it?
Pathma
Ex-monk,
Very cute but not enough. My offer still stands. If anybody other then you gives me a good reason why this thread serves a useful purpose I wont close it. Just for the heck of it, summarise what you have learnt from this thread, that you didnt already 'knew' before.
Pathma,
Thanks for the info on shaktism.
You have mentioned Amma a few times by now. Most people in Tamilnadu apply this term for Jayalalitha. But the context that you have used the term seems to suggest Mata Amritanandamayi who is also called Amma.
In context of this thread, which perhaps has lived its life, Amma should be a very good example to put forth. She was born in a fisherman's family, hardly educated, had to suffer immensely even from her own fmily, but is now revered as Mother by a huge number of people.
She now gives sanyAs diksha and people feel lucky to get it from her. Many brahmins are her devoted followers amongst all possible castes and nationalities. Amma's approach doesn't exclude any aspect of hinduism. The temple at the ashram has statue of Kali, but the archana that is performed is Lalita-sahasranama. Bhajans sang by her are for every hindu deity. She has vedic scarifices performed at the brahmasthanam temple in the ashram regularly. It would be utterly futile to put such a great saint in a narrow parochial confines of caste or sect.
About her compassion,I would just wish to recall an event:
The current swami at the California ashram was a member of the 'rationalist' movement and had first gone to Amma with the intention of 'exposing' her as a fraud. He narrated the following incident that he was witnessed to. A leper with a very bad and advanced case of leprosy came to see Amma. As is her custom she gives darshan by hugging (also known as the hugging saint). She kept the leper waiting till the end of the darshan. After every one else had had their darshan, she called the leper. Everyone was concerned that Amma, as is her practice, is going to hug that man. Amma not only hugged him with great love, but to the utter surprize and horror of the witnesses, started to lick his open wounds with great love. Few people fainted watching this. This was a stark lesson and demonstration of the divine love. Forget caste and such divisions. Such love to a suffering person was a demonstration and lesson to all people standing there, and the swami who had gone there to expose her as a fraud, as well as the affirmation of divine love for suffering humans.
The same Amma, has this to say about Shankaracharya's arrest:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> http://www.indiadaily.com/breaking_news/13700.asp
Kanchi Seer's arrest painful: Amritanandamayi
Nov. 21, 2004
Describing Kanchi Sankaracharya Jayendra Saraswathi's arrest as "painful", Hindu spiritual leader Mata Amritanandamayi, today hoped that the Seer's "ordeal" passes of as a "bad dream". "It is painful to learn about the arrest of Kanchi Acharya. It seems like a bad dream and may it continue to be nothing more than that...", she said. "The arrest should not weaken the lineage of the Advaita philosopher and Saint Adi Shankara, whose order has helped to preserve the Vedas and its associated culture", she said in a release here. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what some of her devotees wrote:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> http://www.kanchi-sathya.org/voice.htm
  A letter from a devotee of Mata Amritanandamayi
  Namaskarams. We are devotees of the Great Mother Shri Amritanandamayi Devi and are also devotees and admirers of the Kanchi Mutt, a mutt which was decorated by no less a Saint than the Paramacharya of Kanchi. Recently my family and me happened to take Darshan of our most beloved Guru, Shri Amritanandamayi. Here are a few things AMMA has to say regarding the Unfortunate Arrest of Jayendra Periava and we heard it directly from Her:
  1. She is really pained to hear about the charges mounted on a saint like him.
  2. He is the ONLY Shankaracharaya who really served the society by
  performing a lot of Social Service to the poor and the needy.
  3. She also expressed hope that the whole episode will pass like a "bad
  dream"
  [A devotee from Newark, California]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dalits eye new rites in UP...
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In a few days from now, another - the last and most decisive - bastion of the Hindu upper castes is set to fall in Uttar Pradesh. <b>With the graduation of the first batch of curriculum-trained priests in the state, several Dalit pundits will be ready to offer their services for the entire range of traditional Hindu rites. </b>
The class of 2002 in the UP Sanskrit Sansthan's paurohitya (priesthood) course <b>includes several Dalit and other non-Brahmin students</b>. The three- month course that was started in February, aimed at training students in the range of karmakand rites from mundan and vivah sanskar (marriage) to vrats (fasts) and tyohar (festivals).
The students have been trained by priests who were picked from a large pool of Sanskrit scholars in the state.
The scholars were given extensive training before being asked to fan out in the districts to impart their knowledge to priesthood-hopefuls. With the course now nearing completion almost everywhere, lists of successful trainees have begun to come in - they will receive certificates, and will be recognised as 'registered pundits' qualified to perform karmakand rites.
The course attracted 35 students on an average in each of the 70 districts where it was offered. It was welcomed enthusiastically at some places, and received a lukewarm response at others.
The maximum number of Dalit trainees in a district was five - in Varanasi. There were four in Lalitpur, three each in Gorakhpur and Unnao, two each in Mirzapur, Lucknow and Chitrakoot, and one each in Jaunpur, Deoria, Mau, Ambedkarnagar and Kushinagar.
"We had kept the course open for everyone, as we wanted the knowledge to be made available to all," said Dr Sachidanand Pathak, director of Sanskrit Sansthan.
<b>"But we had no idea that we would receive such a good response from castes other than Brahmins as well." </b>
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And so much for "international pressure", they know where they can take it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Viren+Feb 3 2005, 04:42 AM-->QUOTE(Viren @ Feb 3 2005, 04:42 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Dalits eye new rites in UP... <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:thumbsup--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbup.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='thumbup.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Viren+Feb 3 2005, 04:42 AM-->QUOTE(Viren @ Feb 3 2005, 04:42 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Dalits eye new rites in UP...
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is certainly an encouraging and welcome development. Perhaps someone from the sanshtan is visiting this forum after all. <!--emo& --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> they will receive certificates, and will be recognised as 'registered pundits' qualified to perform karmakand rites. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However, I must apologise for not being clear. As you can see, we need to see that <b>all Hindus, men and women, of all races in the world</b> are eligible to become priests and <b> serve in a temple, not just karmakanda rites.</b> And not just any temple but in the Sri Rangams and the Sri Kaalahaatis too. Any Hindu priest should be eligible to just fill a form and apply for a job as a priest in any temple without being discriminated. This is the minimum necessary. (I can see everyone is nodding and agreeing with me. <!--emo& --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
But I understand that becoming pundits is the first step, and its laudable. I am sure these developments will reinspire the non brahmins and dalits and bring renewed hope to hundred millions.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"We had kept the course open for everyone, as we wanted the knowledge to be made available to all," said Dr Sachidanand Pathak, director of Sanskrit Sansthan.
"But we had no idea that we would receive such a good response from castes other than Brahmins as well." <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Finally knowledge is being made available to all. But I wonder why this good doctor is surprised at the response from non brahmins. Perhaps like many others he was out of touch with the people and living in a virtual reality. Many non brahmin Hindus want to serve as priests because of love of the religion, love of the gods and love of the sanskrit traditions and knowledge, and inspite of the miserable wages. This is true love which was unacknowledged till now and it held back our religion for so long.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->And so much for "international pressure", they know where they can take it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am sorry again I was misunderstood. International pressure is to get India to enforce its own human rights laws, free the nationalised temples and remove the job reservations. This has not happened yet.
Regards.
Pathma
Not quite the right thread, so please move it as you see fit.
Another encouraging development. Perhaps JS could learn something from this jain saint instead of just walking about in dalit colonies! Real and substantial reforms.
<b>Dalit youth turns jain monk</b>
For the first time a dalit becomes a Jain monk. After a screening,
the Jain saints allowed him to be a part of their religion.
BY ABHA SHARMA
DH NEWS SERVICE, JAIPUR:
In a caste-dominated society, where dalit bridegrooms are often
discouraged to ride a mare in their wedding processions, upper castes
treat them with disdain and untouchability remains a stigma
irrespective of what the Indian Constitution outlines, the induction
of a dalit youth in Jain religion comes as a welcome change.
In a historic event, a 22-year-old youth belonging to Meghwal
community was anointed as a Jain monk at Ahore town in Jalore
district on Monday. Hailing from Mandwaria village, Sirohi district,
Chandaram Meghwal alias Sandeep got a new identity as Anant Punya
Maharaj at a diksha ceremony attended by a large number of people
from Shwetambar Jain community and Sandeep's relatives from Sirohi.
Sandeep who went to Mumbai in search of a job a few years ago was so
impressed by Jain saint Suryodaya Maharaj that he expressed his
desire to dedicate his life to the religion. He travelled with him to
various holy places and attended religious sermons with deep devotion
and sincerity to the surprise of the saint. On expressing his desire
to join the religion, he was sent to Ahmedabad to study the Jain
ideology for almost four years. Seeing his intense desire to lead
life of a Jain monk, his family gave in after initial hesitation,
reliable sources told Deccan Herald from Ahore.
He was given a warm send off from his village two days ago and
reportedly there was a mad rush among the villagers to touch his feet
to show their reverence. <b>His monkhood moved about 1,500 people in the
village to go vegetarian and give up drinking.</b> Monday onwards, he
would be known with his new name Anant Punya, said Mahaveer Jain, a
businessman from Bangalore, who was currently in Ahore to attend the
diksha ceremony. His 26-year-old sister also took diksha along with
Sandeep, he said. A commerce student at the MES college in Bangalore,
she gave up her studies to pursue the same path.
A tough life awaits the newly inducted monk from Tuesday as he will
have to walk barefoot, clad in a white robe and seeking alms. No
physical comforts will be allowed, including the services of a
barber.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps someone from the sanshtan is visiting this forum after all.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From the article..
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Date: May 8, 2002 <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bullocks move the cart.
Pathma,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps someone from the sanshtan is visiting this forum after all. :<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cute, but in case you missed the date on the article, Rajesh has pointed it out. Some time ago when someone had pointed a link to a Mahila institute which has been in existence for for over 20 years, you had pooh-poohed it saying an organization here and organization there doesn't add up. How come you guys at Navyashastra don't seem to locate these organizations which are actually doing work on the ground? What kind of support would you guys provide, now that some are taking pain to point it out you? Or do paths to all the 'reforms' and solutions go only via the inbox of the NS subscribers?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->However, I must apologise for not being clear. As you can see, we need to see that all Hindus, men and women, of all races in the world are eligible to become priests and serve in a temple, not just karmakanda rites. And not just any temple but in the Sri Rangams and the Sri Kaalahaatis too. Any Hindu priest should be eligible to just fill a form and apply for a job as a priest in any temple without being discriminated. This is the minimum necessary. (I can see everyone is nodding and agreeing with me. <!--emo& --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> )<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah..but the question is what are you doing to actually help them rather than nitckiping on whatever is being done. Or asking 'international pressure' over guys who are actually on the job? Why do I have strange feeling that even if they were to change the course/curriculum to fit your exact needs, you'll come up with something else that doesnât fit your criteria.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But we had no idea that we would receive such a good response from castes other than Brahmins as well."Â <!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Finally knowledge is being made available to all. But I wonder why this good doctor is surprised at the response from non brahmins. Perhaps like many others he was out of touch with the people and living in a virtual reality.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A while back some students in US university had organized screening of Hindi movie during cultural show. They were surprised to see American students show up in huge numbers as the movie was in Hindi without any sub-titles. One could say that the show organizers were living in virtual reality no?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Many non brahmin Hindus want to serve as priests because of love of the religion, love of the gods and love of the sanskrit traditions and knowledge, and inspite of the miserable wages. This is true love which was unacknowledged till now and it held back our religion for so long<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Question: If I'm "<i>non brahmin Hindu ( don't rule out this possibility by assuming too much) want to serve as priests because of love of the religion, love of the gods and love of the sanskrit traditions and knowledge, and inspite of the miserable wages</i>" whose permission should I seek to read, learn or understand any Hindu scripture or Sanskrit traditions or rituals? Who should I complain against <i>holding back the religion</i> from me?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> am sorry again I was misunderstood. International pressure is to get India to enforce its own human rights laws, free the nationalised temples and remove the job reservations. This has not happened yet.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have statements from your own NS chairman on how co-operative a section of society is on giving up reservations or objecting to reforms. I don't see any temple or preist or Hindu books or traditions imposing job related reservations or quotas. It's our politicians and the context under which you are addressing it should be considered when making such a statement.
Also, during the seer arrest discussion, you had expressed your utmost confidence with regards to efficiency and fair play of the Indian justice and legal system. So why not appeal those directly in the powers be say in Chennai or New Delhi and have them implement the law of the land. Why go to 'international pressure' or 'world courts'? Selective cherry picking?
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