Indian Missile News And Discussion

[Guest]

[quote name='Arun_S' date='16 February 2010 - 05:13 AM' timestamp='1266276910' post='104246']

[url="http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article107287.ece"]Different version of BrahMos to be tested

[/url]



So this version of Brahmos employs a trajectory that is terrain following type, while the earlier ones fly higher at cruising altitude.



At low altitude cruising, the Mach 2.5 missile will scare the shit out of Abdul's below with its sonic-boom, while at the same time make life impossible in what was difficult in the first place for even AESA equipped Super Hornet F-18.



What people do not talk about BrahMos is that for given size and fuel carried inside it is more capable the the stated range of 290 km, and with all the excess fuel in hand it can do all kinds of "S-curve" dance and/or low altitude flying.

[/quote]



I doubt Brahmos can cruise at low altitude ( i,e, < 100 m ) at sustained M 2.5 without creating significant heating issue , my thinking is at low altitudes Brahmos will be doing a sustained ~ M 1.5.



One thing interesting about Brahmos Corp is they keep on innovating every new version adds something to the already lethal missile capability.



The next invovation should be to reduce its RCS further and develop a sub launched variant of the missile.

[Arun_S]

[quote name='Austin' date='16 February 2010 - 11:20 AM' timestamp='1266298964' post='104261']

I doubt Brahmos can cruise at low altitude ( i,e, < 100 m ) at sustained M 2.5 without creating significant heating issue , my thinking is at low altitudes Brahmos will be doing a sustained ~ M 1.5.



One thing interesting about Brahmos Corp is they keep on innovating every new version adds something to the already lethal missile capability.



The next invovation should be to reduce its RCS further and develop a sub launched variant of the missile.

[/quote]



You are correct, it cant do low altitude cruise at M2.5, and that M1.5 to 1.9 is more likely. I stand corrected.



At low altitude that M1.5 will leave a trail of sonic boom damage on it path.

[Bharat_2009]

[quote name='Arun_S' date='16 February 2010 - 05:13 AM' timestamp='1266276910' post='104246']

[url="http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article107287.ece"]Different version of BrahMos to be tested

[/url]



So this version of Brahmos employs a trajectory that is terrain following type, while the earlier ones fly higher at cruising altitude.



At low altitude cruising, the Mach 2.5 missile will scare the shit out of Abdul's below with its sonic-boom, while at the same time make life impossible in what was difficult in the first place for even AESA equipped Super Hornet F-18.



What people do not talk about BrahMos is that for given size and fuel carried inside it is more capable than the stated range of 290 km, and with all the excess fuel in hand it can do all kinds of "S-curve" dance and/or low altitude flying.

[/quote]



In an event of war, if India is forced to use nuke warheads on BrahMos missiles,



can we assume that



BrahMos with 150 kg warhead can go a distance of 1000 km ??



1.Large fuel capacity



2.50% reduction in payload can double the range for ballistic missiles (can we assume the same for cruise missiles ??)



BrahMos range



300 km @ 300 kg (Published range vs payload)



BrahMos range (speculative)



500 km @ 300 kg (due to large fuel capacity)



1000 km @ 150 kg (Low yield FBF) (50% reduction in payload doubles the range)







Nirbhay range (speculative)



800 km @ 600 kg (Dr Saraswat said 800 km, but he did not talk about payload)



1600 km @ 300 kg



>2500 km @ 150 kg warhead (like Tomahawk W80 nuclear warhead which weighs 132 kg)



Just guessing without graphs !!



If it takes the highway without bothering about city traffic, we get better mileage for fuel pumped in.

[Guest]

[quote name='Gagan' date='16 February 2010 - 07:36 AM' timestamp='1266285507' post='104250']

WRT Brahmos and the Brahmos 2, how will India step out of the MTCR range issue?



WIll India have to demonstrate that the B-2 is and Indian designed missile? Or will a co-produced missile do?

[/quote]

QUOTE:

The range of the missile will not be extended as the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), to which Russia is a signatory, does not allow it to help other countries to develop missiles with ranges above 300 kilometres

However, down the road, India, on its own, can extend the range of such missile to beyond 300KM, after few years and add this indegenous technology feature to such hypersonic missile without any MTCR red flag. The job of extending its range is doable because of the following factor:

QUOTE:

According to Dr Pillai, the Brahmos hypersonic version will not only have higher speed, but will also consume less fuel and require less operational time to deploy. These qualities are expected to provide the missile longer range.

[Guest]

Gagan, on 16 February 2010 - 07:36 AM, said:

WRT Brahmos and the Brahmos 2, how will India step out of the MTCR range issue?



WIll India have to demonstrate that the B-2 is and Indian designed missile? Or will a co-produced missile do?

QUOTE:

The range of the missile will not be extended as the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), to which Russia is a signatory, does not allow it to help other countries to develop missiles with ranges above 300 kilometres

However, down the road, India, on its own, can extend the range of such missile to beyond 300KM after few years and add this indegenous technology feature to such hypersonic missile without any MTCR red flag. The job of extending its range is doable because of the following factor:

QUOTE:

According to Dr Pillai, the Brahmos hypersonic version will not only have higher speed, but will also consume less fuel and require less operational time to deploy. These qualities are expected to provide the missile longer range.

[Guest]

(50% reduction in payload doubles the range)





How so Bharat?



Any data that you can corroborate on this ¿¿¿¿



If I remember well, when they shaved the payload of Ghauri missile from 1000KG to 700KG they increased the range from 950 to 1120.....



And look @ the following from david right:

David Wright at the Union of Concerned Scientists has done an excellent analysis of the Taepodong-2 based on the CSS/Nodong configuration. He calculates that the Taepodong-2, used as a ballistic missile, could deliver a one ton payload to a range of 6,000 kilometers, which would allow it to reach Anchorage, Alaska, and, with a 500 kg payload, the missile would have a range of 9,000 kilometers, putting San Francisco within range and all U.S. cities along the Pacific coast north of there.

The efficiency of a rocket engine is measured by its specific impulse. Specific impulse is defined as the thrust divided by the mass of propellant consumed per second. The result is expressed in seconds. The specific impulse can be thought of as the number of seconds that one pound of propellant will produce one pound of thrust. If thrust is expressed in pounds, a specific impulse of 300 seconds is considered good. Higher values are better. Although specific impulse is a characteristic of the propellant system, its exact value will vary to some extent with the operating conditions and design of the rocket engine. It is for this reason that different numbers are often quoted for a given propellant or combination of propellants.

Do we know what prepellants Brahmos is using and thereby its specific impulse? and the quantity/mass of it? Since impulse is the product of a thrust, and its bounce to the ounce theory in rocketery science, we would know nothing on yr above question under the absence of above material facts.



For example:

A shoulder fired rocket such as the LAW has an average thrust of 600 lbs and a firing duration of 0.2 seconds for an impulse of 120 lb sec. The Saturn V rocket, used during the Apollo program, not only generated much more thrust but also for a much longer time. It had an impulse of 1.15 billion lb sec

A rocket's mass ratio is defined as the total mass at lift off divided by the mass remaining after all the propellant has been consumed. A high mass ratio means that more propellant is pushing less missile and payload mass, resulting in higher velocity. A high mass ratio is necessary to achieve the high velocities needed for long-range missiles.

[Arun_S]

[url="http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/shaurya-surfaces-as-india%5Cs-underwater-nuclear-missile/385952/"]Shaurya surfaces as India's underwater nuclear missile

[/url]

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi February 17, 2010, 0:04 IST

The country’s top defence scientist has, for the first time, revealed that India’s new Shaurya missile, which can carry a one-tonne nuclear warhead over 750 kilometers, is specially designed to be fired from Indian submarines and could form the crucial third leg of India’s nuclear deterrent. If launched from a submarine off the China coast, it could hit several Chinese cities like Beijing, Nanjing and Shanghai.



Air and land-based nuclear weapons are delivered to their targets by fighter aircraft and ballistic missiles, respectively. Since these can be knocked out by an enemy first strike, the most reliable nuclear deterrent has traditionally been underwater, missiles hidden in a submarine.



V K Saraswat, the DRDO chief and Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, revealed to Business Standard at the ongoing Defexpo 2010, “We have designed the Shaurya so that it can be launched from under water as easily as from land. The gas-filled canister that houses the missile fits easily into a submarine. The underwater leg of the nuclear triad needs to be totally reliable and needs a state-of-the-art missile.”



India’s undersea deterrent had so far revolved around the K-15 ballistic missile, built with significant help from Russia. The K-15 was to equip the INS Arihant, India’s lone nuclear-powered submarine, which is being constructed in Visakhapatnam. [color="#800080"]But now, after rigorous underwater testing, the Shaurya could be the mainstay of Arihant’s arsenal.[/color]



......... “The [color="#800080"]Shaurya was developed from ground up as a submarine-capable missile,[/color]” confirms Dr Prahlada, the top DRDO scientist responsible for liaising with the military. “Every piece of technology for fitting it in a submarine is already in place.”



Shortly before the Defexpo 2010, Dr Saraswat had publicly stated that India’s missile technology was ahead of China’s and Pakistan’s.



Now top DRDO scientists have revealed that the [color="#800080"]Shaurya is not a ballistic missile, as it has been thought to be; it is actually a hypersonic cruise missile, which never leaves the atmosphere[/color].



A ballistic missile is like a stone being lobbed towards a target. Rockets toss it upwards and towards the target; after the rocket burns out, gravity pulls the missile warhead down towards the target. Buffeted by wind and re-entry forces, accuracy is a problem; and, since the ballistic missile’s path is predictable, shooting it down is relatively easy.



The Shaurya has none of these issues. [color="#800080"]Its solid-fuel, two-stage rocket accelerates the missile to six times the speed of sound before it reaches an altitude of 40 kilometers (125,000 feet), after which it levels out and cruises towards the target, powered by its onboard fuel.[/color]



While ballistic missiles cannot correct their course midway, the Shaurya is an intelligent missile. Onboard navigation computers kick in near the target, guiding the missile to the target and eliminating errors that inevitably creep in during its turbulent journey.



The Shaurya, say DRDO sources, [color="#800080"]will strike within 20-30 metres of its target[/color] after travelling 750 kilometres.



Conventional cruise missiles, like the American Tomahawk and the Indo-Russian Brahmos, offer similar accuracy. But their air-breathing engines carry them along slowly, rendering them vulnerable to enemy aircraft and missiles. The Shaurya’s solid-fuel, air-independent engine propels it along at hypersonic speeds, leaving enemy fighters and missiles far behind.



[color="#800080"]“I would say the Shaurya is a hybrid propulsion missile”, says Dr Saraswat. “Like a ballistic missile, it is powered by solid fuel. And, like a cruise missile, it can guide itself right up to the target.”[/color]



[color="#800080"]Making the Shaurya even more capable is its ability to manoeuvre, following a twisting path to the target that makes it very difficult to shoot it down.[/color] In contrast, a ballistic missile is predictable; its trajectory gives away its target and its path to it.

For more details here is link to [url="http://www.indiaresearch.org/Shourya_Missile.pdf"]my IDR/IRF article on Shourya and Sagairka missile[/url] that was published an year ago.

[Arun_S]

[quote name='Bharat_2009' date='16 February 2010 - 01:02 PM' timestamp='1266305066' post='104264']

In an event of war, if India is forced to use nuke warheads on BrahMos missiles,



can we assume that



BrahMos with 150 kg warhead can go a distance of 1000 km ??



1. Large fuel capacity



2. 50% reduction in payload can double the range for ballistic missiles (can we assume the same for cruise missiles ??)

[/quote]

Where did you learn that for BM? What is the basis?



Surely CM operate under different set of propulsion and propagation method compard to BM, and will thus behave differently.





Why not postulate/assume Brahmos to go a distance of 2000 km? Why limit it to 1000 km?

[Arun_S]

[url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/TNN15chinatimonlin-embargoed-till-10-pm--------------/articleshow/5577195.cms"]India to deploy Akash missiles in North-East to deter China[/url]

Rajat Pandit, TNN, Feb 16, 2010, 03.03am IST NEW DELHI: India plans to progressively base six surface-to-air Akash missile squadrons in the North-East to counter the threat posed by Chinese fighters, helicopters and drones in the region.



Sources say IAF will get eight Akash tactical air defence squadrons by 2015, with the first one becoming operational by 2011 itself, at a cost of over Rs 6,100 crore. Every squadron will have two `flights' of four Akash launchers each. Moreover, the Army is now poised to order two Akash regiments, with six firing batteries each, for around Rs 4,000 crore.



With an effective interception range of 25 km, the DRDO-developed Akash system with supersonic missiles and a network of radars is designed to neutralise multiple aerial targets attacking from several directions simultaneously in all-weather conditions. With an 88% "kill probability'', it can even take on sub-sonic cruise missiles.



The plan to base Akash squadrons in North-East constitutes yet another step to counter China's massive build-up of military infrastructure all along the unresolved 4,057-km Line of Actual Control (LAC).



Though it woke up quite late, India is now fastracking measures like raising of two new specialised infantry mountain divisions and an artillery brigade for Arunachal Pradesh and basing of two Sukhoi-30MKI squadrons (36 fighters) each at Tezpur and Chabua in Assam.



India is also looking to deploy the 3,500-km Agni-III and the under-development over 5,000-km Agni-V ballistic missiles as soon as possible. While Agni-III will be operationally ready by 2011-2012, the two new infantry divisions, with 1,260 officers and 35,011 soldiers, will be in place by 2012.



The government, of course, likes to downplay all this. Defence minister A K Antony on Monday said the two new divisions were part of the overall strategy to strengthen the armed forces.



"It's not directed at China or any country. The aim is to have an effective deterrent against any threat or eventuality,'' said Antony, after inaugurating DefExpo-2010, which has attracted a record 650 companies.



India is not "a war-mongering country'', nor does it covet "even an inch'' of any country's territory. "But we are ready to defend every inch of our territory... Our aim is to give the most modern equipment to our armed forces so that they can meet any challenge from any quarter at any time,'' said Antony.



Yes, there is the long-pending border dispute with China, but both New Delhi and Beijing are trying to "amicably resolve'' it through talks. Relations with China in other sectors like trade have dramatically improved, said Antony.



While this is certainly true, China is upgrading as many as 14 airfields in Tibet, of which at least half are now fully-operational. Its Linzi airbase, for instance, is not even 30 km away from the LAC in Arunachal.



With straight double-digit hikes in its defence budget for over 20 years, the 2.25-million strong People's Liberation Army has swiftly enhanced its transborder and `area-denial' military capabilities as well as bolstered its nuclear missile arsenal.

[shijo]

arun sir can u pls explain the hyper sonic cruise in shourya missile, there is a lot of confusion about the shurya missile,



and also there is some confusion that K 15 missile and shourya are two different missiles

[Guest]

[size="6"]BrahMos hypersonic missile to touch Mach 5 to 7[/size]





New Delhi: Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos Aerospace is working on a hypersonic cruise missile that can touch speeds ranging from five to seven times that of sound.



The cruise missile's supersonic version for the land forces can touch speeds of two times the speed of sound and has a 290-km range.



"The hypersonic version of the BrahMos, to be called BrahMos-II, is in its design and technological development stage. It will take some time to mature. But our aim is for it to touch Mach 5 to 7 speeds, making it the fastest cruise missile in the world," BrahMos' Chief Executive Officer A Sivathanu Pillai said at the DefExpo here.





"The hypersonic missile, which will be smaller than BrahMos-I, will definitely provide an advantage to the Indian armed forces in future warfare," Pillai said when asked about the need for the missile.



The hypersonic version of the BrahMos would be built for its air platforms.



Already, the BrahMos is in the process of developing an air platform-based supersonic cruise missile and Sukhoi fighter jets of the IAF have been chosen as the platform for integrating the missile.



"The BrahMos will be integrated in to the Su-30MKI's built in India. But the aircraft would be sent to Russia for fitting a modified structure for the missile's integration. We plan to get it done by 2012," he said.



Apart from the Sukhois, currently being built at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's (HAL) facility in Bangalore on a technology transfer from Russia, other systems that would be Indian in the BrahMos plans are its launchers.



"The whole system including the aircraft would soon go for dummy trials and the missile integration process onto the Sukhois should start by next year," he said.



Meanwhile, Russia's Minister for Trade and Industries Victor Khrishtenko visited the BrahMos stall at the DefExpo, where he spoke to reporters about the possibilities of the Indo-Russian partnership in the field of defence.





Khristenko, giving the example of BrahMos which stood for Rivers Brahmaputra and Moscow being a joint venture between the two countries, said the defence cooperation between Indian and Russia was moving away from a seller-buyer relations to joint development phase.



He said Russia was now sharing technology with India for production of defence products within India that included T-90 tanks, Sukhoi aircraft, aviation engines, and military helicopters.



Referring to the deals signed between the two countries during Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit to Moscow last December, Khristenko said the new relationship mandated that Russia provide after-sales repair and service, apart from product support, such as spare parts.

[Bharat_2009]

[quote name='Arun_S' date='17 February 2010 - 06:36 AM' timestamp='1266368281' post='104283']

Where did you learn that for BM? What is the basis?



Surely CM operate under different set of propulsion and propagation method compard to BM, and will thus behave differently.





Why not postulate/assume Brahmos to go a distance of 2000 km? Why limit it to 1000 km?

[/quote]



1. I learned that from your comments and articles on BR and Indian defense research websites. (50% reduction in payload can almost double the range)



According to your range vs payload graph for Agni III with 2 stages



5000 km @ 1750 kg



8000 km @ 850 kg



14,500 km @ 400 kg



Agni III with 3 stages carries almost double the payload. From your Agni III article



8100 km @ 1500 kg







2. I understand it is wrong to speculate, but



Published range for BrahMos is 300 km @ 300 kg payload



I was wondering about the payload at a higher range.





3. Recent article about Shourya by Ajay shukla says that it is actually a hypersonic cruise missile.



http://www.business-standard.com/india/n...le/385952/



Title - Shaurya surfaces as India's underwater nuclear missile





can Shourya with a depressed trajectory be called as a quasi-ballistic missile instead of hypersonic cruise missile?

[Guest]

Bharat:





4000 km @ 3000 kg



8000 km @ 1500 kg



16,000 km @ 750 kg

So at 375 KG of payload it would be 32,000 - and at 187 KG it would be 64,000 and at 90 KG it would go to 128,000........Boy its going to end up with million miles having zero payload!



What is this shik baby?



Lol

[Guest]

[size="6"]BrahMos To Export Cruise Missile Systems: CEO[/size]





NEW DELHI - India, which has built a supersonic cruise missile jointly with Russia, is holding talks with at least four countries to sell the weapons system, a senior Indian official said Feb. 16.



BrahMos Aerospace, a 50-50 tie-up with Russia worth $10 billion, needs the approval of both governments to export the weapon, which its makers claim is the world's fastest cruise missile. Each costs up to $3 million.





"We are in the process of getting the necessary permission [for sales]," A. Sivathanu Pillai, CEO of BrahMos Aerospace, said on the sidelines of Defexpo 2010.



A senior company executive, who asked not to be named, said "serious negotiations" were underway with South Africa, Brazil and Chile for a maritime version of the missile, while Indonesia has been offered a land-based BrahMos.



The joint venture stipulates the missile cannot be sold to "unfriendly countries," the joint venture's marketing chief, Praveen Pathak, said.



The missile can fly at a speed of 1 kilometer (0.62 miles) a second.



"We have no competition for the next 10 to 15 years from American or the French makers of cruise missiles as the BrahMos is the fastest and most cost-effective system ever to be built," Pillai said.



The BrahMos carries a 440-pound (200-kilogram) conventional warhead and has a range of 175 miles (280 kilometers). Indian and Russian experts started development work on the missile in 2001.



The missile, which gets its name from the rivers of India's Brahmaputra and Russia's Moscova, was inducted into the Indian military in 2007 as a frontline weapons system.

[ramana]

[quote name='samsam' date='17 February 2010 - 06:41 AM' timestamp='1266388396' post='104286']

arun sir can u pls explain the hyper sonic cruise in shourya missile, there is a lot of confusion about the shurya missile,



and also there is some confusion that K 15 missile and shourya are two different missiles

[/quote]





From what I can make out of all the statements is that the Shaurya is launched as a ballistic missile(because of its booster) and travels in the upper atmosphere without leaving it unlike a conventional Ballistic Missile. So its what is called an aero-ballistic missile. The Soviets had a a/c launched long range missile which was thought to be of that genre. In this case instead of a/c this one is ground launched.



Also K-15 and Shaurya are mostly same with minor variations. One is for sub-based the other is land based.



What all these means is one cant use pruely ballistic trajectory evaluations for this type of missiles.

[Arun_S]

To add to Ramana garu's post, Shourya is designed and tested for more difficult aero-ballistic trajectory that is a nightmare for ABM systems. IMHO it does not preclude its use in conventional ballistic trajectory, where its range is longer than the stated 750 km..

[Arun_S]

[quote name='Bharat_2009' date='17 February 2010 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1266393610' post='104292']

1. I learned that from your comments and articles on BR and Indian defense research websites. (50% reduction in payload can almost double the range)



According to your range vs payload graph for Agni III with 2 stages



5000 km @ 1750 kg



8000 km @ 850 kg



14,500 km @ 400 kg



Agni III with 3 stages carries almost double the payload. From your Agni III article



8100 km @ 1500 kg

[/quote]

The payload to range change is a strong function of mass fraction of the last stage. And there will be only point in that curve where for initial 50% reduction in payload mass, the range will double. It is not true for other initial payload (E.g. 2000 Kg, or 400 Kg).



CM OTOH do not show such marked increase in range when payload is reduced.

[Menander]

From what I can make out of all the statements is that the Shaurya is launched as a ballistic missile(because of its booster)

Even the BrahMos and many CMs have a Solid booster stage. IIRC Cruise missiles also use boosters for the boost phase but then switch on to some form of sustained propulsion whereas Shourya uses only Solid stages and somewhat lofted trajectory to travel the distance.

[Arun_S]

[url="http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/newdelhi/Arihant-to-be-armed-with-ballistic-missiles/Article1-509620.aspx"]Arihant to be armed with ballistic missiles[/url]

[url="http://www.hindustantimes.com/Search/Rahul-Singh.aspx"]Rahul Singh[/url], Hindustan Times[email="rahul.singh@hindustantimes.com?Subject=Arihant%20to%20be%20armed%20with%20ballistic%20missiles"]

[/email]New Delhi, February 17, 2010 The man steering India’s highly classified nuclear-powered submarine programme has acknowledged for the first time that the warship will be armed with ballistic missiles.



Vice-Admiral D.P.S. Varma (retd), Director General, Advanced Technology Vehicle (ATV) project, told HT at DEFEXPO-2010, “The K-15 submarine-launched ballistic missiles jolly well be there on INS Arihant when it is inducted into the Navy. The N-sub should hopefully be with the Navy by the end of 2011.”



The K-15 missile, a closely guarded DRDO secret, is capable of delivering a nuclear warhead up to 700 km. With 12 ballistic missiles in its arsenal, the Arihant will complete the sea-leg of India’s nuclear triad and give it enduring nuclear strike and counter-strike capabilities. India can carry out nuclear strikes with fighter planes and land-launched missiles.



Asked how work on Arihant was shaping up, Varma said, “We are on track. But the proof of the pudding lies in the eating. So we will know when the Navy inducts it.”



The usually tight-lipped Varma said India’s submarine fleet should have five to six nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines. He said plans were afoot to build two more nuclear-powered submarines to reinforce India’s strategic deterrent force at sea. He said, “We have to cross a certain milestone before going into specifics.”



Larsen & Toubro, which built the hull for Arihant, has fabricated the hulls for the new N-subs. The United States, Russia, the UK, France and China are the only countries that can deliver nuclear warheads from a submarine.

K-15 is Sagarika the twin sister of Shourya.



There is almost no new information that is not already covered in this [url="http://www.indiaresearch.org/Shourya_Missile.pdf"] IDR/IRF article on Shourya and Sagairka missile[/url] article that was published an year ago.

[Bharat_2009]

[quote name='Arun_S' date='17 February 2010 - 11:51 PM' timestamp='1266430400' post='104314']

The payload to range change is a strong function of mass fraction of the last stage. And there will be only point in that curve where for initial 50% reduction in payload mass, the range will double. It is not true for other initial payload (E.g. 2000 Kg, or 400 Kg).



CM OTOH do not show such marked increase in range when payload is reduced.

[/quote]



Thanks Arun !!