Indian Missile News And Discussion

[Guest]

Two points I would like to raise.

1. The question regarding weather the sagarika was a cruise or a ballistic missile is answered. It is both. If indeed the navalized version of the Shaurya is the sagarika.



2. Since the Agni-2AT has not yet been unveiled, is it possible that this can be an extended ranged shaurya? Or a follow on to shaurya? After all why is DRDO taking all these years to unveil what was supposedly a tweak to a much tested system. I wonder if the time that is being taken means further capabilities.

[Bharat_2009]

[quote name='Gagan' date='20 February 2010 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1266656752' post='104393']

Two points I would like to raise.

1. The question regarding weather the sagarika was a cruise or a ballistic missile is answered. It is both. If indeed the navalized version of the Shaurya is the sagarika.



2. Since the Agni-2AT has not yet been unveiled, is it possible that this can be an extended ranged shaurya? Or a follow on to shaurya? After all why is DRDO taking all these years to unveil what was supposedly a tweak to a much tested system. I wonder if the time that is being taken means further capabilities.

[/quote]





From Arun's article on Agni Strategic missiles



4000 km @ 750 kg payload (Agni II)



4000 km @ 1500 kg payload (Agni II(AT))



We are looking at increase in range and payload for Agni II (AT).



According to Arun, Agni II (AT) will be mass produced.









4000 km is a good range to target China's economic powerhouse cities like Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong with heavy payloads



1. Agni III with 3 stages



4000 km @ 2500 to 3000 kg payload



2. Agni III SLBM with 3 stages



4000 km @ 1800 kg payload



3. Agni II (AT)with 2 stages



4000 km @ 1500 kg payload

[Arun_S]

Thanks Bharat_2009 for speaking my mind.

2. Since the Agni-2AT has not yet been unveiled, is it possible that this can be an extended ranged shaurya? Or a follow on to shaurya? After all why is DRDO taking all these years to unveil what was supposedly a tweak to a much tested system. I wonder if the time that is being taken means further capabilities.

Yes, the 1.2 meter Agni-II AT is for real.

Missile women Tessie Thomas is now leading Agni-II projects, I am hoping to hear something on that front sooner than later.

[vasu_ray]

what is the chance that a variant of Shaurya will be the long range ABM interceptor the PDV with altitude ceiling at 150-200kms? afterall, PAD is a Prithvi variant



from wiki, SM-3 from the Aegis system is smaller in dimensions with altitude ceiling at 250kms and has 4 stages

[Arun_S]

[quote name='vasu_ray' date='21 February 2010 - 02:22 AM' timestamp='1266698694' post='104402']

what is the chance that a variant of Shaurya will be the long range ABM interceptor the PDV with altitude ceiling at 150-200kms? afterall, PAD is a Prithvi variant



from wiki, SM-3 from the Aegis system is smaller in dimensions with altitude ceiling at 250kms and has 4 stages

[/quote]



No need. AAD booster is perfectly sized for meet and beat SM-3.

[emperor]

A shourya as an ABM interceptor can make a good boost phase intereptor as long as pakis missiles are concerned.



Get a couple of batteries stationed couple of 100 km away from border and a long range sword first tracking radar tracking 24/7 and initiating the launch of a boost phase interceptor as soon as the space based assests confirm the launch, porkis nuke will be porked on their own terrorist land <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />)

[vasu_ray]

Thanks Arunji, in the scheme of things we have AAD (<30km), PAD (<80kms) and PDV (150-200kms)



PDV is supposed to be a 2 stage interceptor, so guess it would be the KV + AAD booster?



Chandragupta, hope you are correct, two things to say,



1) if I remember Arunji had stated earlier that even if a warhead is shot down in Pak airspace, it may not explode due to standard safety features carried by nukes, however it would be a nightmare if jihadis get hold of any fallen nuke material assuming it hasn't already burned up



2) AAD is currently at 1200kg, and based on Brahmos on the MKI, if the PDV is below 3000kg it can be carried by the MKI or any loitering bomber in addition to land/ship/sub launched Shourya ABM

[Arun_S]

[quote name='vasu_ray' date='21 February 2010 - 11:38 AM' timestamp='1266732031' post='104423']

Thanks Arunji, in the scheme of things we have AAD (<30km), PAD (<80kms) and PDV (150-200kms)



PDV is supposed to be a 2 stage interceptor, so guess it would be the KV + AAD booster?

[/quote]



I think PDV = AAD booster + second stage + KV



It may turn out that like PAD the KV is integrated with the second stage.

[vasu_ray]

In case of north and north east deployment of Shourya and ABM interceptors how well we could utilize the mountain ranges for altitude launch?



1) given, Shourya's first stage booster is separated at 5km altitude from sea level



2) The Sword fish radars will have a better view of skies above Tibet and beyond improving its tracking range hence the ABM interceptors with longer range and flight ceiling can be deployed?

[Guest]

The swordfish will have the same advantages tracking incoming ballistic missiles weather they come over the himalayas or over the sea.



Tracking cruise missiles is a different ballgame though. I would suppose that cruise missiles are easier to track if they are flying over flat terrain rather than doing a ground hugging movement in a hilly terrain. The himalayas have a gradual gradient, with a number of decrementally reducing hills. A cruise missile fired from north of the himalayas will perhaps be able to dive between the hills, repeatedly breaking radar lock, making both tracking and targeting difficult.

[Arun_S]

[quote name='vasu_ray' date='22 February 2010 - 02:30 AM' timestamp='1266785554' post='104435']

In case of north and north east deployment of Shourya and ABM interceptors how well we could utilize the mountain ranges for altitude launch?



1) given, Shourya's first stage booster is separated at 5km altitude from sea level



2) The Sword fish radars will have a better view of skies above Tibet and beyond improving its tracking range hence the ABM interceptors with longer range and flight ceiling can be deployed?

[/quote]



I do not know why the urge to use Shourya as ABM, given that more suitable platform already exists? In particular if indeed shourya is a low end hypersonic missile designed to fly in atmosphere and not classical ballistic, it is even less suited for ABM role where name of the game is acceleration and maximum burn-out speed.





Indian tool box has more tools than just Shourya, so why one is forced to think of it as a hammer and all problems look like nails?

[vasu_ray]

Thanks Gagan, for cruise missiles intercepting them before they enter the himalayan zone and also the low level quick reaction SAMs could be helpful



Arunji, the desire is only for an ABM system



A ) with higher flight ceiling, since from a threat perspective Chinese BMs targeting us and the US are the same and the warning times are even lower for us



B ) and that has commonality across land, air and naval forces



currently this is the setup,



AAD, PDV with land forces



Barak-NG with Navy



airforce?



even US seems to have 2 different programs with THAAD and Aegis SM-3



issue B ) is probably due to different origins of each system

[emperor]

My obsession with a Shourya or PDV type Boost phase ABM is only with respect to pakis.Since their whole breadth of their territory is no more than 400 kms,it gives us the best shot to hit thier BMs during boost phase with our hypersonic interceptors.



A boost phase interceptor in Indian arsenal W.R.T Pakis will virtually nuetralize their nuclear deterence.And thier CM`s which are sub-sonic and most likely have to fly either over the plains on our western side or through kashmiri mountain regions can be nuetralised with air-bourne or blimp type advanced warning radars.



All I want to see is...... that facial expression on the faces of porkis ,when they came to know that thier billion dollars worth nuclear weapons will lay useless when Indian ABM`s stand guard <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



Since its a chain reaction in the neighbourhood, the phobia will be passed onto chinks.



The moment porkis nuclear arsenal becomes useless,our forces can go on a ride into porki land considering that no single piece of indian land will be hit by a porki nuclear warhead in responsive action.



If you want to tame the dragon? first have to cut its wings(porkistan).

[Bharat_2009]

[quote name='Chandragupta' date='22 February 2010 - 07:05 PM' timestamp='1266845254' post='104455']

My obsession with a Shourya or PDV type Boost phase ABM is only with respect to pakis.Since their whole breadth of their territory is no more than 400 kms,it gives us the best shot to hit thier BMs during boost phase with our hypersonic interceptors.



A boost phase interceptor in Indian arsenal W.R.T Pakis will virtually nuetralize their nuclear deterence.And thier CM`s which are sub-sonic and most likely have to fly either over the plains on our western side or through kashmiri mountain regions can be nuetralised with air-bourne or blimp type advanced warning radars.



All I want to see is...... that facial expression on the faces of porkis ,when they came to know that thier billion dollars worth nuclear weapons will lay useless when Indian ABM`s stand guard <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



Since its a chain reaction in the neighbourhood, the phobia will be passed onto chinks.



The moment porkis nuclear arsenal becomes useless,our forces can go on a ride into porki land considering that no single piece of indian land will be hit by a porki nuclear warhead in responsive action.



If you want to tame the dragon? first have to cut its wings(porkistan).

[/quote]





1. Pakistanis and Chinese may launch conventional ballistic missiles on India, initially !! India has to be careful about retaliating with nukes. We do have nuclear radiation detectors.



2. If a nuke is launched and even if we manage to intercept it with ABMs and also find out that it is a nuke, India would retaliate with nukes.



3. It doesn't have to be Indian civilians. Even if Indian troops are targeted with low yield battlefield nukes, We may retaliate with nukes.



4. I did hear somewhere that if Pakistan uses nukes against India, China would also be held responsible for supplying nuke materials and missiles and targeted.



5. Pakistan would not just depend on ballistic nuclear missiles. They could drop nukes from air (Nuclear bombs and Nuclear capable RAAD cruise missiles ALCM), launch from sea (Babur cruise missiles with nuke warheads). Pakistanis don't need a nuclear submarine to do that. China may throw nuclear capable DH-10 long range cruise missiles at us



6. If Pakistan or China decides to use nukes then it would be massive. If they launch 100 nukes at us, at the same time, we may have to launch large number of ABMs at it.Indian ABMs have to be mass produced. I hope there would not be any interference from both external (foreign firms) and internal lobby (retired officers, media) groups to prevent mass production.



Since we are talking about nukes here, we cannot just assume that we can intercept whatever our enemies throw at us, then go home and sleep peacefully. We should pray that it (nuclear war) never happens, at least in our life time.

[ramana]

One request please dont quote the whole post to make your point. One can refer to the earlier post by its number.



Meanwhile Raj Chengappa's summary article in India Today, 22 Feb 2010



The Long Ranger

[Arun_S]

[quote name='ramana' date='23 February 2010 - 04:54 AM' timestamp='1266880566' post='104476']

Meanwhile Raj Chengappa's summary article in India Today, 22 Feb 2010



[url="http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/83593/Defence/The+long+ranger.html"]The Long Ranger[/url]

[/quote]



So the second stage with flex nozzle on Agni-2 is electrically actuated.



Further since the QA problems did not surface IMHO because not many units were manufactured in teh first place.



Fortunately this has shown the importance of testing from stock to both the suppliers, users and policy makers.



Same due diligence should happen for nuclear weapons too !

[Bharat_2009]

Thank god, we cannot import strategic missiles and long range cruise missiles like Nirbhay. Thanks to Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR).

Some Indian media wanted to project couple of Agni II quality control failures as total design failure. Well, let them keep dreaming.





There is some confusion regarding India's Joint collaboration with Israel for Barack SAM.



Shiv Aroor's article on Barak



http://www.8ak.in/8ak_india_defence_news...-year.html





India's Surface to Air Missiles





Barak 2 LRSAM - 120 to 350 km (Indian Air Force)



Barak MRSAM - 70 km (Indian Army)



Barak 8 - 70 to 100 km?? (Indian Navy)







Spyder - 20km (Python-5) and 50 km (Derby)(Indian Air Force and Indian Army)





Akash -25 to 30 km (Indian Air Force and Indian Army)





Maitri QRSAM





Russian variants



SA-6(24km)Upgraded, SA-8 (15 km)Upgraded, SA-10 (200 km) (not sure whether India has it), SA-13 (4 to 6 km) and

SA-3 (Pechora)-35 km

[emperor]

[quote name='ramana' date='22 February 2010 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1266880566' post='104476']



The Long Ranger

[/quote]



This report says that another variant of A-II is going in parallel to make it road mobile.But AFAIK,A-IIA completed development already and first flight is due because of hectic schedule of DRDO.DRDO is testing things on a priority basis instead of FIFO.

[Arun_S]

[size="4"][color="blue"][url="http://www.hindu.com/2010/02/23/stories/2010022360280200.htm"]Missile Man-II, looking ahead and farther[/url] [/color][/size]

Special Correspondent

Saraswat began his career in DRDO in Hyderabad in 1972 He has been instrumental in development of missile programmes Under Saraswat's stewardship, DRDO conducts testing of Agni-III

GUNTUR: Missile Man of India A.P.J. Abdul Kalam's junior colleague Vijay Kumar Saraswat, chosen for the prestigious Dr. Yelavarthy Nayudamma Award 2009, is with love called Missile Man-II, for his dedication to achieve higher goals every year and reaching a farther target with missile technology developed indigenously.



If he has achieved three consecutive successful launches of Agni-III, he has set his eyes on Agni-IV and Agni-V that can strike targets that very few nations can dream of.



Currently he is the Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister, Secretary, Department of Defence Research and Development and Director General of Defence Research and Development Organisation.



Mr. Saraswat has been instrumental in development of various missile programmes like Prithvi-I, Prithvi-II, Dhanush, Devil and the Air Defence project.



Under his stewardship, the DRDO had achieved success in completing the tests of Agni-III missile with a range of 3,500 km. Agni V with a range of over 5,000 km would be launched in 2011 and various aspects related to Shaurya, a nuclear capable hypersonic [color="#9932cc"]cruise[/color] missile, were two big challenges that he was pursuing.



Born in Gwalior on May 25, 1949, Mr. Saraswat, graduated in Mechanical Engineering from Jiwaji University in 1970 and took the Master's degree from the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore.



He obtained his doctorate in combustion engineering from Osmania University in 2000.



The scientist began his career in the DRDO at its Defence R & D Laboratory in Hyderabad in 1972.



Entrusted with the task of developing [color="#9932cc"]Devil[/color], India's first liquid propulsion engine, he soon rose to become the Project Director of DRDL.



He embarked on a futuristic air defence programme, encompassing the development of complex anti-ballistic missile systems, and demonstrated the interception of an incoming hostile ballistic missile in exo-atmospheric regions in November 2006 and March 2009 and endo-atmospheric regions in December 2007, when he was the Chief Controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems) and Programme Director ‘AD' (Air Defence).







Recipients



Earlier recipients of the Dr. Nayudamma Award include T. Ramasami, A. Sivathanu Pillai, Nori Dattatreyuudu, Sam Pitroda, G. Madhavan Nair, Kota Harinarayana, V.K. Aatre, R. Chidambaram, R.A. Mashelkar, J.S. Bajaj, K. Kasturirangan, Verghese Kurien, S.Z. Qasim, M.G. K. Menon and M.S. Swaminathan among others.

This report re-states Shourya as a hypersonic cruise missile.



Interestingly cruise missiles are perceived to be less escalatory compared to ballistic missiles (thus more useable in theater war), even tough the range of the two may be the same.



Hypersonic cruise missile of 700km is not very different from CM coming at a target, but it comes in fast like a BM.

[laltaputu]

I am a little bit confused regarding the range of agni 3 and agni 5

AGNI 3 specs:-



Weight-55,000 kg

Length-17 m

Diameter-2.0 m

stage-2

range-3,500km

speed-5-6 mach



AGNI 5:-

Weight-56,000 kg

Length-?

Diameter-2.0 m

stage-3

range-5,000km

speed-6-7 mach (?)



M51 SLBM:-

Weight-52,000 kg

Length-12 m

Diameter-2.3 m

stage-3

range-8000-11000 km

speed-15 mach





the specs of M51 SLBM is similar to agni3 and agni 5, in fact M51 SLBM is lighter and shorter than agni3 with .3 increase in diameter so if M51 SLBM can do over 8000km at mach 15 why does agni 3 and agni 5 can do just about 5000km at mach 7.