Indian Missile News And Discussion

[Bharat_2009]

[quote name='laltaputu' date='25 February 2010 - 10:55 AM' timestamp='1267075078' post='104524']

I am a little bit confused regarding the range of agni 3 and agni 5

[/quote]





Indian government wants to downplay the range and other capabilities due to various reasons (Uncle Sam, CTBT, NPT, Fissile materials cutoff treaty and so on)





Range depends on the payload and other factors.



Agni III and Agni V are ICBMs. Even Agni II can go ICBM distance at smaller payloads !!





Media is doing its part to confuse us more !! Let us stay confused !!

[emperor]

[quote name='Arun_S' date='24 February 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1267043265' post='104510']





Hypersonic cruise missile of 700km is not very different from CM coming at a target, but it comes in fast like a BM.

[/quote]

Maybe not Arun.



Hypersonic CM projects a high intensity of uncertainity in detection and interception while a BM is not(be it a tactical/strategic)



People might be discounting its advantages after looking at its cruise altitude of 30-40km,but there is one hidden advantage in that itself.



At present there is no known defence for a supersonic CM itself

and a hypersonic CM like Shourya??? No way it can be intercepted before 2017-2020.



One highly overlooked point in regards to shourya is its coasting Phase.While the active rocket propulsion keeps it cruise all the way at Mach 5 to 750km and then lets it coast.the coasting sector is of high value IMHO.

the specs of M51 SLBM is similar to agni3 and agni 5, in fact M51 SLBM is lighter and shorter than agni3 with .3 increase in diameter so if M51 SLBM can do over 8000km at mach 15 why does agni 3 and agni 5 can do just about 5000km at mach 7

If DRDO or MOD is talking about the payload of the missiles,treat that as the final pure warheads weight after discounting dummies and countermeasures and vagaira.....



True throw weight of A-III is in the range of 2500kg... Keep your gesstimator at work <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[Guest]

[quote name='laltaputu' date='25 February 2010 - 10:55 AM' timestamp='1267075078' post='104524']

I am a little bit confused regarding the range of agni 3 and agni 5

AGNI 3 specs:-



Weight-55,000 kg

Length-17 m

Diameter-2.0 m

stage-2

range-3,500km

speed-5-6 mach



AGNI 5:-

Weight-56,000 kg

Length-?

Diameter-2.0 m

stage-3

range-5,000km

speed-6-7 mach (?)



M51 SLBM:-

Weight-52,000 kg

Length-12 m

Diameter-2.3 m

stage-3

range-8000-11000 km

speed-15 mach





the specs of M51 SLBM is similar to agni3 and agni 5, in fact M51 SLBM is lighter and shorter than agni3 with .3 increase in diameter so if M51 SLBM can do over 8000km at mach 15 why does agni 3 and agni 5 can do just about 5000km at mach 7.

[/quote]





M51 has a very light weight body made of carbon epoxy and its a 3 stage rocket that uses PCPA propellent with 180 ton of thrust and specfic impulse of 275 what is the thrust of Agni III ? what propellents is it using? You require a higher thrust to weight ratio to do this trick.

[Guest]

[quote name='Chandragupta' date='25 February 2010 - 07:04 PM' timestamp='1267104416' post='104530']

Maybe not Arun.



Hypersonic CM projects a high intensity of uncertainity in detection and interception while a BM is not(be it a tactical/strategic)



People might be discounting its advantages after looking at its cruise altitude of 30-40km,but there is one hidden advantage in that itself.



At present there is no known defence for a supersonic CM itself

and a hypersonic CM like Shourya??? No way it can be intercepted before 2017-2020.



[/quote]





Chandragupta u r more right than less wrong!



There currently are no known functional hypersonic cruise missiles in any nation´s arsenal.



Brahmos type Hypersonic missile can punch a hole in any super carrier of USA without a warhead with its kinetic energy by 36 times.........

The hypersonic version will be capable of immense destructive power on account of kinetic energy resulting from its immense speed. According to BrahMos Aerospace, an object striking a target at Mach 6 will have 36 times the force of an object of the same mass striking the target at Mach 1.

BRAHMOS will pack the same punch since rail guns do something similar at MACH 5 without a warhead, just a projectile.........speed kills, its lethal.



Its going 2 b the work-horse of India with a near pin point accuracy.



Sea-Air launched Brahmos would cover greater length and I guess USS Enterpise days wont be repeated in near future a la 1971.....

[Guest]

[size="6"]Russia's S-400 System Strikes Imagination and Everything Else in the Sky[/size]













Russia’s S-400 Triumf missile system was put into service in 2007. The new system has recently appeared in the Moscow region, in the town of Electrostal to strengthen the defense of the Moscow missile defense area. Russia’s Air Force Commander, Lieutenant-General Vadim Volkovitsky, described the S-400 system as a “child complex that needs to develop and grow.”





S-400 can strike any air target at a distance of up to 400 kilometers around, except for nuclear warheads of intercontinental ballistic missiles.



The “child complex” looks very impressive. The launch system with four missiles looks like a tractor that carries pipes for an arterial pipeline.



Designers of the system say that S-400 can operate automatically. For the time being, there are only two of such systems in the Moscow region. Most likely, they will take part in the Victory Day parade on Moscow’s Red Square on May 9.



“The exploitation of the new system has shown that this is reliable military hardware. This system is familiar to our specialists. Some of its parts and equipment were used on its predecessor, S-300, which simplifies the training process for personnel. Putting Triumf into service did not require the participation of many specialists, like it happened with S-300 system. There are some minor technical problems as it always happens with new things, but they all are not relevant,” the official said.



S-400 Triumf is designed for the destruction of various types of aircraft (planes, helicopters, missiles) including those made with the use of Stealth technology. The system also destroys short-range attack missiles and missile warheads flying at the speed of up to 4.8 kilometers per second. S-400 is three times more efficient than similar complexes of both Russian and foreign production.



“I can assure you that there is no other missile system in the world that could be better than Triumf. I constantly study the materials of other countries’ armies and compare Russian hardware with state-of-the-art military hardware of other countries. I can say that no other country has approached Russia at this point,” Yury Soloviov, the commander of Russian Special Assignment Troops said.



The S-400's NATO reporting name is SA-21 Growler, and the system was previously known as S-300PMU-3. It overshadows the capabilities of the other systems from the S-300 series, and its range is claimed to be at least two times the MIM-104 Patriot system's.



The S-400 is expected to be superseded by the future S-500 missile, with development expected to be completed by 2012.



A regular S-400 battalion reportedly consists of at least eight launchers with 32 missiles and a mobile command post.

[vasu_ray]

if we use the 3.2m dia solid booster for 1st and 2nd stages how much can the length be reduced while keeping the same range as Agni-5?



can these be fit on lengthened diesel-electric subs in a single file? These VLS tubes can also be used for Shaurya and Brahmos



better yet if the subs shift to nuke propulsion (like Brazil) for endurance to cover even the Chinese coast and not just the Pak coast currently



is there a way to feed these sub reactors from a nuclear fuel cycle initiated/seeded with locally mined Thorium?

[Guest]

[quote name='vasu_ray' date='28 February 2010 - 01:20 AM' timestamp='1267299775' post='104606']





better yet if the subs shift to nuke propulsion (like Brazil) for endurance to cover even the Chinese coast and not just the Pak coast currently



is there a way to feed these sub reactors from a nuclear fuel cycle initiated/seeded with locally mined Thorium?

[/quote]



Natural thorium contains only trace amounts of fissile material (such as 231Th) that are insufficient to initiate a nuclear chain reaction. Arihant uses HEU.

Out of the estimated 468 naval reactors that have been installed on 258 submarines and service ships, 24 use fuel enriched to 90% U-235. Most of the reactors were fueled with U-235 enriched to 21-45%. A typical reactor core contains 315 kg of uranium.

[Guest]

[Guest]

[size="6"]Russian company eyes offensive military satellite[/size]















Leading Russian spacecraft producer Energia has presented a concept of a universal military satellite with offensive capabilities.



The 20-ton orbiter with a life expectancy of 10 to 15 years would be powered by a 150 to 500 kilowatt nuclear reactor and will be able to “monitor territories and airspace, provide informational superiority – including in armed conflicts – and perform target designation and traffic control. It will also be offensive-capable,” said Energia head Vitaly Lopota, as cited by ITAR-TASS news agency.



He did not specify what offensive capabilities the satellite would have; whether it will be able to target other spacecraft, ground targets, or both.



The concept goes against Russia’s voiced intention to keep space an arms-free zone. However, with several nations believed to be actively pursuing space-based or anti-satellite weapons, Energia’s design may find support among the country’s leadership.

[vasu_ray]

[quote name='ankit-s' date='27 February 2010 - 02:34 PM' timestamp='1267309592' post='104612']

Natural thorium contains only trace amounts of fissile material (such as 231Th) that are insufficient to initiate a nuclear chain reaction. Arihant uses HEU.

[/quote]



India has a 3 stage fuel cycle program which although is Thorium driven can produce HEU by reprocessing and enrichment, this can be used in sub reactors I believe



even if they use diesel electric propulsion if they can launch SLBM's while patrolling in Indian ocean that's decent enough, and this way sub numbers can be increased

[emperor]

[quote name='vasu_ray' date='27 February 2010 - 02:50 PM' timestamp='1267299775' post='104606']

if we use the 3.2m dia solid booster for 1st and 2nd stages how much can the length be reduced while keeping the same range as Agni-5?



can these be fit on lengthened diesel-electric subs in a single file? These VLS tubes can also be used for Shaurya and Brahmos



better yet if the subs shift to nuke propulsion (like Brazil) for endurance to cover even the Chinese coast and not just the Pak coast currently



is there a way to feed these sub reactors from a nuclear fuel cycle initiated/seeded with locally mined Thorium?

[/quote]



A 3.2 dia will bring down the length to around 10m.We can do the basic volumetric calculations with a cylinder volume to get rough idea as a ref.Me lazy to do that <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



But a large diameter is not preferable. our 2 m dia is perfectly file if we can utilize the given dimensions with more advanced composites to bring down the casings weigth down and using high density fuels....... a 2 m dia and ~ 13m lenght SLBM is fine



Inorder to fit Shourya and Brahmos in the same VLS,one needs a modular universal VLS with a 11m lenght.and you need a DE sub bigger than kilo class with around 3000t disp surfaced.and again you need an AIP..there by increasing dead weight and size.In all its times better to go with nuclear subs avoiding all this hazzle.



Thorium fueled reactors was considered for indian subs,but the timeline wasnt clear.

US does tried away with a Th reactor for naval use.



I hopefully think that the second/third gen nuclear subs will go with thorium.

[Guest]

There was this news article on Hypersonic Brahmos 2 which stated that Brahmos 2 will be lighter than supersonic Brahmos 1 and it will be air launched.



The air launched makes sense because Scramjet will need high altitude and supersonic speed for it to burn and only airlaunched variant probably carried by Su-30/FGFA will be able to do that , a land launched variant will need huge booster and will make it heavy.



The lighter part is probably because it need to carry less about of fuel for the MTCR restricted range of ~ 300 km making it lighter as it can achieve the same range because of higher Isp achieved by Hypersonic Missile.



Here is something on hypersonic missile from official website



http://www.brahmos.com/content.php?id=27

[Guest]

[quote name='vasu_ray' date='28 February 2010 - 05:22 AM' timestamp='1267314241' post='104620']

India has a 3 stage fuel cycle program which although is Thorium driven can produce HEU by reprocessing and enrichment, this can be used in sub reactors I believe



even if they use diesel electric propulsion if they can launch SLBM's while patrolling in Indian ocean that's decent enough, and this way sub numbers can be increased

[/quote]







For this kind of fuel to kick in our reactors first - the projected date is 2050 - so you are 4 decades away and Nations defenses wont wait for that long. If we can make our own indigenous Nuke submarines, we can surely make diesel electric with a bigger hull, but you know the disadvantage of such submarines which are pregnant with nuke warheads should not be a sitting duck (because it has to resurface time n again), hence P-5 countries dont choose this way, nuclear propulsion suits better.

[ravicv]

[quote name='Chandragupta' date='25 February 2010 - 05:34 AM' timestamp='1267104416' post='104530']

Maybe not Arun.



Hypersonic CM projects a high intensity of uncertainity in detection and interception while a BM is not(be it a tactical/strategic)



People might be discounting its advantages after looking at its cruise altitude of 30-40km,but there is one hidden advantage in that itself.



At present there is no known defence for a supersonic CM itself

and a hypersonic CM like Shourya??? No way it can be intercepted before 2017-2020.



One highly overlooked point in regards to shourya is its coasting Phase.While the active rocket propulsion keeps it cruise all the way at Mach 5 to 750km and then lets it coast.the coasting sector is of high value IMHO.







If DRDO or MOD is talking about the payload of the missiles,treat that as the final pure warheads weight after discounting dummies and countermeasures and vagaira.....



True throw weight of A-III is in the range of 2500kg... Keep your gesstimator at work <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

[/quote]



It appears that the Shourya is somewhat akin to the Russna Iskander theater ballistic missile system. It follows a quasi-ballistic trajectory and is supposedly potent against targets defended by ABM assets. My guess is that the Shourya will be employed as a test bed to evaluate technologies for a long range CM, just like the Iskander has been used to develop the R-500 CM.

[ravicv]

[quote name='ankit-s' date='27 February 2010 - 02:50 PM' timestamp='1267310535' post='104613']



[/quote]



During SDI, BDM Corp. a Beltway defense contractor developed a laser mounted atop a B707 which could ostensibly shoot down missiles in the boost phase. It turned out to be lots of hype, glossy brochures, and little else. Strange that this Boeing "achievement" has come out in Ria Novosti. The Russians themselves are in the final stages of developing a pretty sophisticated system at Troitsk and the P. N. Lebedeev Institute. It is supposed to be mounted on a Il-76 (???).

[Arun_S]

[quote name='Austin' date='28 February 2010 - 10:48 PM' timestamp='1267377033' post='104641']

There was this news article on Hypersonic Brahmos 2 which stated that Brahmos 2 will be lighter than supersonic Brahmos 1 and it will be air launched.



The air launched makes sense because Scramjet will need high altitude and supersonic speed for it to burn and only airlaunched variant probably carried by Su-30/FGFA will be able to do that , a land launched variant will need huge booster and will make it heavy.



The lighter part is probably because it need to carry less about of fuel for the MTCR restricted range of ~ 300 km making it lighter as it can achieve the same range because of higher Isp achieved by Hypersonic Missile.



Here is something on hypersonic missile from official website



[url="http://www.brahmos.com/content.php?id=27"]http://www.brahmos.c...ntent.php?id=27[/url]

[/quote]



I think hypersonic engine will have lower ISP compared to supersonic engine.

[Arun_S]

Qubit: Welcome to this thread.

[Guest]

[quote name='qubit' date='02 March 2010 - 01:39 AM' timestamp='1267473671' post='104687']

During SDI, BDM Corp. a Beltway defense contractor developed a laser mounted atop a B707 which could ostensibly shoot down missiles in the boost phase. It turned out to be lots of hype, glossy brochures, and little else. Strange that this Boeing "achievement" has come out in Ria Novosti. The Russians themselves are in the final stages of developing a pretty sophisticated system at Troitsk and the P. N. Lebedeev Institute. It is supposed to be mounted on a Il-76 (???).

[/quote]







Ye its Beriev based on the Ilyushin Il-76MD.

[Arun_S]

[url="http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article124552.ece"]DRDO to conduct fourth test of interceptor missile[/url]

CHENNAI, March 2, 2010

T. S. Subramanian



In less than two weeks, India will test its Ballistic Missile Defence shield again, by launching an interceptor missile to kill an incoming “enemy” ballistic missile mid-flight. This is the fourth time that the Defence Research and Development Organisation will be testing its interceptor missile.



While the incoming missile will lift off from the Integrated Test Range at Balasore in Orissa, the interceptor will blast off from the launch complex on the Wheeler Island, off Damra village, said V.K. Saraswat, Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister.



A variant of the Prithvi missile will mimic the enemy’s ballistic missile trajectory.[color="#0000ff"] An Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile will confront and kill it, in endo-atmosphere, at an altitude of less than 20 km[/color]. The launch window is between March 10 and 15. The Prithvi is a single stage, surface-to-surface missile that uses liquid fuel. The AAD is a single stage anti-ballistic missile that uses solid fuel. It is 7.5 metres long.



The DRDO scored three successes in a row when its interceptor missile tests conducted on November 27, 2006, December 6, 2007, and March 6, 2009, were on the target.

Intercepting at 20 Km altitude will be a difficult mission because that late in the engagement game will push the system towards it limits in terms of system accuracy in estimating missile kinematic vector and factor in non-ballistic terminal maneuvering, versus time and lateral acceleration budget available to the ADD interceptor.



Throw in decoys that need to be positively identified and filtered away it will be become very challenging. This first low altitude test will unlikely to see introduction of decoys.

[Guest]

[quote name='Arun_S' date='02 March 2010 - 10:43 PM' timestamp='1267549545' post='104715']

[url="http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article124552.ece"]DRDO to conduct fourth test of interceptor missile[/url]





Intercepting at 20 Km altitude will be a difficult mission because that late in the engagement game will push the system towards it limits in terms of system accuracy in estimating missile kinematic vector and factor in non-ballistic terminal maneuvering, versus time and lateral acceleration budget available to the ADD interceptor.



Throw in decoys that need to be positively identified and filtered away it will be become very challenging. This first low altitude test will unlikely to see introduction of decoys.

[/quote]





India has done that before with flying colors!

On 6 December 2007, AAD successfully intercepted a modified Prithvi-II missile acting as an incoming ballistic missile enemy target. The endo-atmospheric interception was carried out at an altitude of 15 km. The interceptor and all the elements performed in a copy book fashion validating the endo-atmospheric layer of BMD System. The launch was also shown through a video link at control room of DRDO Bhawan, Delhi.

AAD with the help of midcourse updates and terminal seeker manoeuvres itself towards the target. AAD makes the direct hit at an altitude of 15 km and at a speed of Mach 4. Radars detected formation of a large number of tracks, signifying that the target had broken into multiple pieces. The thermal cameras located on Wheeler Island also picked up the direct hit through thermal images