"Counterbreeding" as such will not solve anything alone IMO. A geometric growth in Hindu population has to be complemented by an exponential growth in resources..... and living space. Siring more children merely for one's faith will do more harm if they are not provided with the necessary resources to better themselves. I don't think 1.2 billion "underdeveloped", undernourished, near illiterate hindus armed with religious fervor alone would be a solution for the *problem that arises from demographic politics*. This is the mistake that the Islamists are propagating through the ages....."Lets make more faithful, Allah will ensure our victory no matter what! Bismillah!".
Lets not be same short sighted like 'em ....
If you read this thread, in detail
I have shown that India is not over-populated, rather it is mismanaged
Islam is like bacteria in a petri dish
Assume that the limits of India are 2 billion
If hindus fill the vacuum, before muslims reach critical mass, islam is contained
and will gradually be assimilated
Islam is actually winning by mass breeding
Within 50 years, Western Europe will be muslim majority
thanks to muslim mass breeding
Allah is indeed granting the muslims victory thanks to mass breeding
Export the surplus to kafir countries, mass breed and take over
Allah has given the muslims victory by mass breeding in USSR CIS states,
Balkans, Lebanon etc
Indeed islamic mass breeding was the sole reason we had partition
Muslims breeded from 15% in 1800 to 25% by 1947 and became strong enough to riot and partition India
And lets ask the bhadralok bengalis of east bengal who followed your method
They invested in their childrens education etc and cut back fertility
and the muslims breeded to a majority by 1881 and all the bhadralok bengalis of east bengal got ethnic cleansed
Would they not have been better off by counter-breeding the muslims and staying alive
Further, the west is dying and creating a demographic vacuum currently filled by muslim illegal aliens
Hindus too must ship their excess population worldwide like the muslims
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If hindus fill the vacuum, before muslims reach critical mass, islam is contained
and will gradually be assimilated
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A full third of India's population is concentrated on the Indo-Gangetic plain.....around 400 million. This happens to be the most fertile area in the Indian union. It is precisely in this belt that about three quarters of Indian Islamic population resides. The resource rich regions of Bihar, Jharkand, Bengal and Northern Orissa also fall in this belt. The inherent ghettoism in Islamic society contains it at different sectors for a time being atleast....they have not YET have had a demographic explosion.
The growth of a system is determined by the availability of the *least available* resource required for the system growth. Food is not much of a problem as it might seem to be, with a better PDS system that reduces overheads and wastages alone we can feed the additional masses(at a pinch)...land is not that much of a factor, IF we assume the people will move away from their safer ancestral lands to the outbacks of the state. The critical factor here is the human resource development tools and the health issue. This is the SINGLE fact beyond military security that decides the fate of a nation. Consider a situation where the majority of Hindus who follow family planning start producing Lalloo Prasad type families.
Now where are the monetary and other resources to educate, feed and clothe the addituional 3 children per family? We will have to divert funds from science & tech research, defense and other fields to meet these immediate aspects right? And this becomes a paradoxial problem because state services like military, bureacracy, police, hospitals and medical tech etc will have to expand with the population. There's talk about the Hindu population "moving" to contain the muslims by occupying the vaccum.....it will take quite some time if this should occur naturally, otherwise it must e a state sponsored drive like the Chicoms do in Tibet and Xinjiang. A state already burdened by a burgeoning population it can't control, weakend by overstretched services.....AND "opposing" 180+ million muslims(as they would have exploded demographically trying to outdo their Hindu cousins, right?....and they would resist a state action against them naturally! ) will be in no position to do such a thing....
Sorry for the rant...but outbreeding will lead us into such a political/strategic and social mire which a nation like ours will never be able to get out of. What we need is to throw out the political correctness and enforce family planning to ALL.
BTW,
Now that the EU and US have woken up to the illigal Islamic immigrant threat to their western societies, will they let us heathen Hindus simply "ship" our excess janata to their havens? Once they used to laugh at Pat Buchanan types for warning about this in the early 80s........... Now, they know better. The Islamists will try, but their position in the pecking order is bound to make them fail.
The Islamic population explosion in India took place in the 14th-20th century to reach the 25% level at 1947. Note that this was the time of hordes of Islamic invasions, conversions and natural demographic expansion of that period. It would be worth examining if growth was due to breeding or conversion/immigration. It should also be remembered that during this time, native hindu populations were massacred and displaced and muslims occupied that vacuum....they didn't smply squeeze themselves into the biomass. Its common knowledge that an ecosystem CANNOT support more that a certain population.. You either have to dispace/kill the natives and take their places or you have to wait till critical numbers are reached when something kills off the excess numbers to restabilize the system.
My point is, in this changed scenario of the 21st century we can't simply interpolate the process of Islamic overbreeding in the previous 800 yrs and try to apply it here. Hindu overbreeding will only deteriorate the present situation........that is not the answer. We either have to cap and stabilize the population dynamics OR we have to find more land and resources to consume. Otherwise we will be in a situation where about 2 billion Indians (based on the 5 hindu kids law) will have to catfight for very limited strategic resources with 1.2 billion Chinese and 400 million Americans and equal number of Europeans....not to mention the other swathes of Humanity.
My 2 paisa.
Cheers!
Now where are the monetary and other resources to educate, feed and clothe the addituional 3 children per family?
---
OK lets look at Infosys chairman
His father was a school teacher and had 8 kids
This guy has 2 kids now
----
It should also be remembered that during this time, native hindu populations were massacred and displaced and muslims occupied that vacuum....they didn't smply squeeze themselves into the biomass.
---
True but after 1800, the only advantage that islam has is street riots
and for that they need critical local mass
-----
What we need is to throw out the political correctness and enforce family planning to ALL.
---
And who is going to enforce family planning on muslims ?
You? the BJP ??
It aint gonna happen
---
Now that the EU and US have woken up to the illigal Islamic immigrant threat to their western societies, will they let us heathen Hindus simply "ship" our excess janata to their havens?
---
No society from Rome to the US has been able to stop illegal immigration
Next the 5% muslims already in the west, will breed to 25% in 25 years
----
Consider a situation where the majority of Hindus who follow family planning start producing Lalloo Prasad type families.
---
Would they be rather like the bhadralok bengalis of east bengal who did not breed adequately and went extinct
Muslims are willing to put up with a lower standard of living for a few decades so that they can eventually grab your property
---
Huh?
I didn't get that part about Narayanamurthy.....
There was a "Baby Boomer" generation in India too....after the success of the Green revolution. It was not uncommon in those generations to have more than two kids.
Ok, lets say the Hindu population attains critical mass...whats next? Votebank politics, street riots, ghettoisation..... Hindus becoming mindless sheep like the Muslim masses, living in squalor? Is this what you prescribe for the "growth" of Hinduism? And what good is mere numbers in these modern times? The 4th largest army was routed in Gulf War-I, three hundred thousand Mujahideen and clandestine Paki forces were simply brushed aside in Afghanistan reducing them to gadfly guerillas. Numbers are of no use against a superior enemy who has the will and means to *obliterate* you. Ask the Muslims of Europe at the time of the Reconquista or the Sung/Chin/Khwarzam/Abbasid empires at the time of Chengiz....
A nation DOES need the numbers, but if it is too excessive you have a big problem in your hands. Already we are having a tough time catering for the needs of 1 billion people....the last thing we need is an additional 400 million souls (around 2050). These Pakis and all the other bogeys are just secondary concerns......the prime concern of the leaders of the nation is to provide immediate *basic* needs and security to the people. In this respect we have immense success. The Indian janatha is presently more or less satisfied with the state of things....and thats why we don't have revolutions or other upheavals in a national scale. However, if the state cannot meet these needs because of the population burden and assosciated problems, the (hindu) janata itself will be pi$$ed and it will destroy the state.........long before they "muscle" into the Muslims.
************
Now, there's this talk about East Bengal being taken away from the Bhadralok Bengalis. Islam has been in Bengal since 1201 A.D when Bakthiyar Khilji defeated Lakshmanasena and was under assorted dynasties and finally the Mughals.......and then the British. Lets see the final demographic map at partition
Demographic Bengal Map 1947
Note that the green areas constituted the bank of the Ganga-Meghna i.e the Jute sector. It was in 1757-1947 period that the Muslims attained a majority in these areas......as they were brought over to clear these jungle areas and do bonded labor in the jute and paddy crops and in the tea estates in Sylhet. The fact is that the eatstern regions far from Calcutta were always very underdeveloped, only nominally in British control....one reason why Curzon partitioned Bengal in 1905. The communalistic color to the partition only prompted more west bengali Muslims to go over to these areas because of their inherent ghettoistic mentality. At the 1947 partition, East Bengal had a population of 39.11 million with 12 million Hindus and rest Muslims. A 30% of population doesn't mean going extinct! (By that rationale, why don't you worry more about West Punjab which went away for a mere 60% Muslim population)
Muslims had become a majority in these areas, even before "Bhadralok" came into shape by 1920 centred around the administrative nexuses of Calcutta, Darjeeling, Kharagpur and Chittagong..... And BTW, the population control programs were followed only in the 50-60s, afer independence! I searched a lot and couldn't find any references saying that the Bengali hindus has assidiously followed some "family planning" in 1911-1947 period......For all I know, they followed the same pattern as the rest of India. I wonder why you take potshots at the East Bengali Hindus then..... Could you give us references showing that Bhadralok had done this family cutdown in this period?
Anand K,
Thanks for interesting posts. At the very least, can we say that demographics is a potent weapon and a huuge strategic advantage ? Is it a coincidence that China and India are considered super-stars of tomorrow ? Is it a coincidence that yanks wanted to control the desi (other heathen) population ?
While I do agree that demographics by itself is useless (just like a plane without a pilot/fuel/avionics/etc) but can it be coupled with other things ?
Thoughts ?
Of course demographics is a powerful weapon and a strategic advantage in many respects........Numbers do count, they are a force multiplier if coupled with overall national developement and other such factors. The rather good state of the nation, the largest pool of trained personnel and the vast industrial base we have today is because we were able to so far match the population surge with *basic* needs and education..........and land/enviornment. The catchword is "family-planning", not family-capping or family-proliferating.
(Wise men and women of the State foresaw a situation where the burgeoning masses will pull down India's growth....and they set out the "Hum Do Hamare Do" program. If we were heading for a population crunch, I think they would have prescribed the "Hum Do Hamare Paanch" instead.....Hitler called out for a "go forth and multiply" in the heady days of 1939-1942 when the Nazi jackboot trampled down most of Europe without much of an effort. The demographic explosion of Victorian Britian occured when they had conquered a quarter of the globe....and Kipling asked the British to send *their* sons to take on the "white man's burden")
China and India are considered to be upcoming superpowers not just because of their billion plus populations....it is because they bolstered the population strength with a sense of nationhood, solid industrial base, rather strong government and polity, more or less ensured basic needs and health...and guarenteed national security. In India's case; apart from all above mentioned aspects, we managed to hold together a potpourri of humanity, diverse in languages, culture, religions, races etc giving the finger to all the predictions that India won't last a decade. An underdeveloped land teeming with a huge, zealous population will evoke only disdain and sneering contempt from the rest of the world....but if the numbers constitute a united and developed nation (which requires a *stabilized* population), the world will respect it.
****
It is true that things get worse when Muslim populations reach a certain level......India in 1900-1947, Lebanon in 1970s and Indonesia in the 16th century are prime indications. It sounds like a dogmatic statement but it is sadly true....they DO wield more power and muscle when they have sufficent numbers. Thus It is of paramount importance that we stabilize the Indian population dynamics (not cut down or cap....but stabilize according to our needs and capablities).......The Muslim lesser majority will have to demographically contained (to atleast the status quo) for preserving the fabric of India.....until Islam itself acquires the sophistication to eliminate the rising Ummahism and other negative tendencies in favor of nationalism and modernism. Easier said than done, eh?
However, I think the Hindus with no socio-religious taboos on birth control with follow the governmental health and social policies. Point to note is that it is mostly Muslims in UP and Bihar who resist vaccination and family-planning drives.... Still, large swathes of India are still underdeveloped and the populace there, both Hindu and Muslim, believe in the "siring more children=more chance of a male offspring=more sources of income" mantra.
02-10-2005, 07:26 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-10-2005, 10:35 PM by G.Subramaniam.)
Regarding the east bengal bhadraloks
In census from 1901-1941, the east bengal hindus went from 33% to 28%
The bengali hindu was earliest infected by the xtian virus , namely brahmo-samaj
etc
And xtianity causes loss in fertility
===
Agreed, numbers are not everything
I dont fear the external muslim
I fear the internal muslim
protected by vote banks
---
However, it is foolish to deny that demographics does not play a major role in muslim violence
Per Indian IB, any locality with over 30% muslims is 'communally sensitive'
----
Regarding Narayanamurthy, his father raised 8 kids on the salary of a school teacher
----
There are drawbacks to too little fertility
such as being put into old people homes
---
It takes time to organise hindu society and in the meantime, islam has to be demographically diluted
---
The only time family planning was enforced on muslims was Sanjay Gandhi sending in sterilisation squads into muslim ghettos
----
West Punjab in 1947 was 75% muslim
per census data
--
The Muslim lesser majority will have to demographically contained (to atleast the status quo) for preserving the fabric of India.....until Islam itself acquires the sophistication to eliminate the rising Ummahism and other negative tendencies in favor of nationalism and modernism. Easier said than done, eh?
----
And the only practical way to do this is counter-breeding
Moderator Alert
__
I notice that the first 390 posts on this thread, now marked as part 1
are in the trash can section
Please archive them in the library since they have much valuable data
GS,
We are in the process of archiving all threads on http://indiaforumarchives.blogspot.com
The demographics thread with all its posts are available at
http://indiaforumarchives.blogspot.com/200...population.html
02-12-2005, 06:25 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2005, 06:26 PM by G.Subramaniam.)
Fertility and the careeristic woman
Unlike men who can father children from the age of 15 till 60
women are biologically different and have a much narrower fertility window
Biologically for a woman, peak fertility occurs from 18-28
By age of 30, fertility has fallen to 50% and by age 35, fertility has fallen to 10%
So those women who think they have time to focus on a career are really heading for an empty womb and abetting islamisation
How counter breeding also defeats xtianity
One of the key side effects of xtianity is over-educated, over-careeristic women
who have sharp fall in fertility
Consider the case of Goa
In 1901, xtians were 55%
and then the womens lib bug bit the xtians and they cut back on fertility
whereas the more traditional hindus breeded their way to victory
by 1941, xtians were down to 45% and in 2001 down to 27%
and we now have a BJP CM ( until a few days ago ) in Goa
Goa in fact shows the classic example of counterbreeding to defeat xtianity
Hindus in India will start having more than 2 kids not because of demographic reasons but social and personal reasons.
Our parents generation who went for 2 or 3 kids policy are regretting now, Problems which they are facing will change attitude of current or future generations.
At what point is too many kids harmful to the woman ?
------
The medical limit is 15 kids
Mumtaz Mahal who is buried in Taj Mahal died in her 15th pregnancy
More practically, by the 7th pregancy, the uterus starts getting week
So 6 kids is a safe number
and 5 kids is super-safe
next we look into the issue of labor pains
The first delivery is the most painful
During the first delivery, the pelvic bones are bent to a large extent to allow
the head of the baby to pass
The second delivery is much easier since the pelvic bone has already expanded
The 3rd, 4th and 5th deliverys get progressively easier
The 5th delivery is not much more painful than a hard bowel movement with severe constipation
<!--emo&:roll--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:roll--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /><!--endemo-->
02-14-2005, 08:02 AM
(This post was last modified: 02-14-2005, 08:13 AM by G.Subramaniam.)
Per Sun Tzu the famous Chinese author of books on war,
The first step is disrupt the enemy's strategy
The second step is to disrupt the enemy's alliances
And only finally should one actually fight a war
The main muslim strategy is breeding
Counter breeding defeats this strategy and neutralises islam
Sun Tzu also says that the best victory is won by making the enemy give up
before fighting
As long as muslims are kept below critical mass, they will not resort to open jihad,
In zones where muslims are well below critical mass, you can do anything
play music in front of a mosque, pull the beard of the mullah etc, and nothing will happen because they are not strong enough to take to violence
The key then is to keep islam in a quiescent mode and you can do it with counter breeding
http://news.indiainfo.com/2005/02/14/140...tians.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Growth of Christians abnormally high in NE States
Monday, February 14 2005 16:35 Hrs (IST) - World Time -
Kochi: National Commission for Minorities (NCM) today (Feb 14, 2005) said there has been "abnormally high" growth of Christian population in North East India, especially in districts bordering Bangladesh, and the Commission had sought details from the Christian leadership.
While the proportion of Christians in India has remained the same for both decades, 1991 and 2001 at 2.3 per cent, in terms of percentage, Nagaland, Mizoram and Meghalaya have the highest percentage of Christians 90 per cent, 87 per cent and 70.3 per cent respectively, Commission chairman S Tarlochan Singh told reporters in Kochi.
The Commission today held a meeting on scientific analysis of census data of 2001 of Christian community in India, in which church heads, including cardinal Mar Varkey Vithayathil, Major Archbishop of the Syro Malabar church participated.
The report, 'Christians in India', presented by Prof Ashish Bose, Chairman, NCM Expert committee on 'Census Data On Religion', was discussed at the meeting.
Later, addressing a press meet, Singh said given the ethnic demands and socio-cultural diversity in the North Eastern states, it would be 'unscientific' to make hasty generalisations.
"We believe that the possibility of illegal Muslim migrants from Bangladesh reporting as Christians cannot be ruled out," Singh said. There was every possiblity of the migrants recording their religion as Christian as a survivial strategy, he said, adding this needs to be looked into.
Singh said the Commission had urged the Christian leadership to discuss the report.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
02-14-2005, 11:10 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-14-2005, 11:12 PM by G.Subramaniam.)
Why adoption wont solve the demographic problem
Frequently , educated hindu women who dont like to breed even 3 kids,
since it affects their career, say they will adopt kids
Even if every orphan is adopted, it will just close 5% of the fertility gap
No other way except to do your biological duty and breed at least 3
Have 5 or be islamised
Biology prevents women from many careers and educated women need to understand they cannot have their cake and eat it too
Babies first , careers next
One day these careeristic women will wake up inside an islamic harem
as their karma for failing to breed even 3
Namaskar Subramaniam ji,
I always admire your posts, specially on demographic issues.
Thank you for your continous research on it, keep up the good work, and thanx for the reply by email.
best regards,
- Nikhil
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