Indian Missile News And Discussion

[ramana]

Kritavarma, it again reinforces the wisdom of the veterans "One flight test is worht a hundred ground test!"

Also AIII was to be a tech demo for the A-V. so it wont be seen in too many numbers.



I too think its stability problem in the F/S flight. Wonder if its same issue as AIII where the re-entrant jet heated up the cables. What time did the AIII first flight fail?

-----------

Arun if this one weighs 1 tonne ie 2000 lbs what is the traditional breakdown based on itnernational practices?

[Bharat_2009]

Article from May 2008 (The Hindu Business Line)



Agni V, next goal of DRDO



http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008...761000.htm



From the article (May 10th 2008)



"Buoyed by the success of Agni III, which the defence scientists said was ready for induction"



"This gives us the confidence that no more development flights are required”



"Most of the systems for the Agni V would be from Agni III"



"However, it would be a new design and has to go through the entire rigour. The design to delivery in missile is around seven years, he explained"





Another article from The Hindu Business line



"Agni-III ready for induction into Defence forces" (May 8th 2008)



http://www.blonnet.com/2008/05/08/storie...041000.htm





Agni III is under production since 2008. How many inducted? nobody knows !!

[Arun_S]

[quote name='Arun_S' date='09 December 2010 - 08:58 AM' timestamp='1291864843' post='109734']

And this is excerpts on A2-AT from by missile page that was previously posted on BR.



Sorry I have been so busy I have not yet hosted my material somewhere else for greater public good.



Recent reports suggest 1.3 meter diameter. And I think this missile was secretly tested in early 2010, and with Ballistic Glide RV. Let us see the actual dimension when the fat lady sings tomorrow.







[left] [/left][/left]

[/quote]



Some more excerpts from above article of mine:

Agni-IIAT Configuration

----------------- Agni-IIAT Stage 1 --------- Agni-IIAT Stage 2 --------- PBV/HAM --------- RV



Number of Engines ---------------- 1 --------- 1 --------- NA ---------

(Number of Segments)1 --------- (3) --------- (1) --------- NA ---------

Each segment contain one grain of composite solid rocket fuel.



From the higher resolution photo it is clear to me that

1. the second stage is 1 m diameter composite, that is almost identical with Agni-II second stage, composite case, higher enegry fuel and flex nozzle.
2. Booster is a 2 segment construction, instead of my anticipation of 3 segments. (see those thick weld like lines in the middle of stage). fewer segments make is cheaper.
3. Booster also has flex nozzle for good control force availability in all speed range. Something that Agni-II with no flex nozzle and fins did not have, and would have limited its ability to be launched in rough weather conditions (windy weather).
4. Inter-stage is closed (as against vented in earlier design). One can see orifice for retro rocket at the top edge of booster stage. patc
5. The RV has many conformal antennas (patch and slot antennas) and apertures that speaks of all intelligence and sensors on the RV and mission computer. All teh way from range safety, instrumentation, multi sensor fusion (looking at ground below) during hypersonic glide/terminal manuver.
6. From the picture the RV looks different from Agni-III RV.
7. Lack of fins makes it suitable for canisteried packaging, that provides protection from unauthorized access, transportation elements, controlled passivated gas environment for longer fuel shelf like and reliability, as well as ability to make many cheap decoys.

[Arun_S]

[quote name='Bharat_2009' date='10 December 2010 - 06:25 AM' timestamp='1291942078' post='109761']

Slightly Bigger image of Agni II (AT) Hypersonic Boost Glide Missile



[url="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5sP7XwykNSM/TQENGImNj7I/AAAAAAAAC48/7rwKGFAOVfQ/s1600/A2+Prime+Photo+by+Karan.jpg"]http://4.bp.blogspot...to+by+Karan.jpg[/url]



From Arun's article



Agni II (AT) range is



>4500 km @ 1000 kg payload



and from one of his earlier comments



>6000 km @ 600 kg payload[/quote]



Given that the upper stage is 1 m dia, it would also contain lesser fuel (compared to my estimate of 5 years ago), per unit length. Once we know teh actual length of teh stage, I can estimate the fuel inside and using ROCKSIM tell its range versus payload.



Incidentally at least 2 countries (space / missile orgs) have checked ROCKSIM and have found its results compares closely with their inhouse full fledged missile flight simulation software application. As my friend says, dont know what magic voodoo logic is the ROCKSIM, but it always gives the correct result.

[Arun_S]

[quote name='Bharat_2009' date='10 December 2010 - 06:25 AM' timestamp='1291942078' post='109761']

Slightly Bigger image of Agni II (AT) Hypersonic Boost Glide Missile



[url="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5sP7XwykNSM/TQENGImNj7I/AAAAAAAAC48/7rwKGFAOVfQ/s1600/A2+Prime+Photo+by+Karan.jpg"]http://4.bp.blogspot...to+by+Karan.jpg[/url]



From Arun's article



Agni II (AT) range is



>4500 km @ 1000 kg payload



and from one of his earlier comments



>6000 km @ 600 kg payload[/quote]



Given that the upper stage is 1 m dia, it would also contain lesser fuel (compared to my estimate of 5 years ago), per unit length. Once we know teh actual length of teh stage, I can estimate the fuel inside and using ROCKSIM tell its range versus payload.



Incidentally at least 2 countries (space / missile orgs) have checked ROCKSIM and have found its results compares closely with their inhouse full fledged missile flight simulation software application. As my friend tells me, dont know what magic voodoo logic is in the ROCKSIM, but it always gives the correct result.

[Guest]

[quote name='Arun_S' date='11 December 2010 - 11:16 AM' timestamp='1292087333' post='109791']

Given that the upper stage is 1 m dia, it would also contain lesser fuel (compared to my estimate of 5 years ago), per unit length. Once we know teh actual length of teh stage, I can estimate the fuel inside and using ROCKSIM tell its range versus payload.



Incidentally at least 2 countries (space / missile orgs) have checked ROCKSIM and have found its results compares closely with their inhouse full fledged missile flight simulation software application. As my friend tells me, dont know what magic voodoo logic is in the ROCKSIM, but it always gives the correct result.

[/quote]



Arunji,



1. When you say A-IIP S/S has higher energy fuel, do you mean higher energy than HTPB/AP/Al combo used by ISRO for PS-3 stage on PSLV ? Also, the A-IIP S/S is made of FRP rather than carbon-fibre. What is used in A-III F/S and A-V T/S ? Would it be FRP or kevlar/carbon fibre ?



2. how long is the current setback likely to delay A-IIP and A-V ? Does it affect A-V ?



3. A-III should probably be pushed for now. The sooner operational trials take place, the better.



4. Hope the current A-IIP failure is not due to QC. That would be more worrying than a (minor) design flaw like in A-III test 1. This failure is more severe going by news reports. I guess each new missile is an altogether new animal in some sense.



5. Regarding canisterization, wont the high L/D affect prospects of canisterization ? Even for Brahmos and Shourya, L/D < 14 as far as I can see. Here, it seems to be higher...

[Arun_S]

[quote name='Bharat_2009' date='10 December 2010 - 06:25 AM' timestamp='1291942078' post='109761']



Slightly Bigger image of Agni II (AT) Hypersonic Boost Glide Missile



[url="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5sP7XwykNSM/TQENGImNj7I/AAAAAAAAC48/7rwKGFAOVfQ/s1600/A2+Prime+Photo+by+Karan.jpg"]http://4.bp.blogspot...to+by+Karan.jpg[/url]



From Arun's article



Agni II (AT) range is



>4500 km @ 1000 kg payload



and from one of his earlier comments



>6000 km @ 600 kg payload[/quote]



Given that the upper stage is 1 m dia, it would also contain lesser fuel (compared to my estimate of 5 years ago), per unit length. Once we know teh actual length of teh stage, I can estimate the fuel inside and using ROCKSIM tell its range versus payload.



Incidentally at least 2 countries have checked ROCKSIM and have found its results compares closely with their inhouse full fledged missile flight simulation software application. As my friend says, dont know what magic voodoo logic is in the ROCKSIM, but it always gives the correct result.

[Arun_S]

[quote name='Kritavarma' date='11 December 2010 - 11:56 PM' timestamp='1292091488' post='109793']

Arunji,



1. When you say A-IIP S/S has higher energy fuel, do you mean higher energy than HTPB/AP/Al combo used by ISRO for PS-3 stage on PSLV ? [/quote]

No. Just that its higher then earlier version Agni-II

Also, the A-IIP S/S is made of FRP rather than carbon-fibre. What is used in A-III F/S and A-V T/S ? Would it be FRP or kevlar/carbon fibre ?

FRP is a generic name for all kinds of composite material, that includes the specific one that you named. As for specifics, why go there?

4. Hope the current A-IIP failure is not due to QC. That would be more worrying than a (minor) design flaw like in A-III test 1. This failure is more severe going by news reports. I guess each new missile is an altogether new animal in some sense.

Quality process in engineering is different from production QC. This is still engineering IMHO.

[Guest]

[quote name='Arun_S' date='11 December 2010 - 08:56 PM' timestamp='1292122090' post='109800']

No. Just that its higher then earlier version Agni-II





FRP is a generic name for all kinds of composite material, that includes the specif cone that you named. As for specifics, why go there?







Quality process in engineering is different from production QC. This is still engineering IMHO.

[/quote]





Reg. FRP, I now understand. I mistakenly thought FRP= glass-fiber reinforced plastic, which is a specific composite material.



Regarding propellant, read that USSR SS-20 used "OPAL" type, which is HTPB/AP/Al/HMX or HTPB/AP/Al/RDX ... these have better energy levels..there was some indication in a DRDO publication that LRSAM uses such a propellant (maybe without Al). So, hopefully, Agni series eventually get the same kind..



Qual. process. in engg. different from production QC even if the same organization (BDL) makes dev. prototypes as well as production model ?

[Arun_S]

The middle joint is intriguing. Is it a joint for the two sections that form the F/S? What I mean is the F/S casing is made of two segments which are joined together and the propellent grain is cast continuous?

Ramana, pls see my earlier post on the subject. It is segment joint for the 2 grains.

Each segment contain one grain of composite solid rocket fuel.



From the higher resolution photo it is clear to me that

• the second stage is 1 m diameter composite, that is almost identical with Agni-II second stage, composite case, higher enegry fuel and flex nozzle.
• [color="#0000ff"]Booster is a 2 segment construction, instead of my anticipation of 3 segments. (see those thick weld like lines in the middle of stage)[/color]. fewer segments make is cheaper.
• Booster also has flex nozzle for good control force availability in all speed range. Something that Agni-II with no flex nozzle and fins did not have, and would have limited its ability to be launched in rough weather conditions (windy weather).
• Inter-stage is closed (as against vented in earlier design). One can see orifice for retro rocket at the top edge of booster stage. patc
• The RV has many conformal antennas (patch and slot antennas) and apertures that speaks of all intelligence and sensors on the RV and mission computer. All teh way from range safety, instrumentation, multi sensor fusion (looking at ground below) during hypersonic glide/terminal manuver.
• From the picture the RV looks different from Agni-III RV.
• Lack of fins makes it suitable for canisteried packaging, that provides protection from unauthorized access, transportation elements, controlled passivated gas environment for longer fuel shelf like and reliability, as well as ability to make many cheap decoys.

[ramana]

When you say two segment construction what do you mean? the propellent grain is in two parts and the two segments are fastened together or is the casing in two segments and the propellent poured as one grain?

----



Got it:



SRM case to case joints design

[ramana]

Arun, Maybe the joint between the two segments leaked?

[Arun_S]

[quote name='ramana' date='14 December 2010 - 04:50 AM' timestamp='1292281969' post='109826']

Arun, Maybe the joint between the two segments leaked?

[/quote]



Dont think it has ever happened before for India.

[ramana]

The flight was still F/S powered. It cant be TVC re-entrant heating like in AIII. The report said oscillations. If there is a leak then the TVC has to correct and leads to oscillations.

[tijojose]

Arun.. there are some discussions on your Agni designs at livefist. You might want to check it out...

[ramana]

Tijo, It doesn't matter. Those are journalists and depend on handouts. Arun is an engineer and has been consistent in his conceptual designs. The best testimonial is the Shourya article and his estimate that A2P warhead will be based on AIII. No one except the project team had that info. As for those journos they dont know what is a boost glide re-entry vehicle(BGRV) and why India chose that design right at the begining. The author of the US & international efforts (Lightning Bolts) in that field acknowledges Arun in his foreward.





BTW there is lot of resentment about his IDR articles for they have more credibility and are based on open sources while they depend on DRDO handouts and suttlebutt from chota peg sessions.

[ramana]

The A2P payload had a lot of patch antennas indicating the massive telemetry and signals processing in the payload. Can some one do a mapping of the number of patches on a A2P payload and AIII payload by color, size and shape.

[Arun_S]

Directly from the horses mouth that Indian long range strategic missile with MIRV are on roadmap as well as being developed.



So much for the credibility of source that Unni or Aroor use and pine for to create a storm in the tea cup by vehemently insisting that no Indian missile will have MIRV capability. <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />





From [url="http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/nl/2010/december2010.pdf"]DRDO monthly newsletter[/url].





[url="http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/nl/2010/december2010.pdf"]http://www.drdo.gov....ecember2010.pdf[/url]

ASL, Hyderabad

Shri K Jayaraman obtained DMIT (BTech) in Aeronautical Engg in 1980 from Madras Institute of

Technology, Madras, in 1980 and MTech in Aerospace Engg from

Indian Institute of Technology, Madras, in 1982. He joined DRDL in

1982 as Sc ‘B’ and worked till 2001 in Composite Technology Group. He started his career

with design, development, and production of ablative liner components for solid rocket propulsion system,

integral rocket ramjet, radomes, re-entry vehicle structures for Trishul, Akash, and Agni programmes.

He is responsible for the indigenous development of large-sized CNC filament winding machine/

autoclaves for composite products and propellant processing.



He joined Advance System Laboratory in January 2002. As Technology Director, Composite

Product Development Centre, and guided a team of scientists for the design, and development of largesized

carbon composite rocket, and motor casing for Agni Programme. Presently, he is working as Project

Director for the design, development and flight testing of advanced [color="#800080"]long-range missile system with

multiple warhead [/color]capabilities and Project Director for extendable nozzle exit cone for upper stages of long range

missile system.



His special interest is in the area of ballastic protection for personnel, vehicle, and helicopter.

He received the DRDO Award for Performance Excellence in 2009 for the development of lightweight

composite armour for helicopters and battle tanks (DMRL Project) as a team member. He is an active

member of many professional Institutions like ISAMPE and INSARM.

[Arun_S]

From

[url="http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/nl/2011/january.pdf"]http://www.drdo.gov....011/january.pdf[/url]



BrahMos (Block III)

BrahMos (Block III) Successfully Flight-tested



Block III version of BrahMos was successfully flight-tested from Launch Complex III, at Integrated

Test Range (ITR), Chandipur, on 02 December 2010, with [color="#9932cc"]advanced guidance and upgraded software,

incorporating high manoeuvres at multiple points and steep dive from high altitude[/color].



All telemetry and tracking stations including naval ships near terminal point

worked in perfect harmony and have made the mission successful. The launch was executed from a mobile

autonomous launcher by trained army personnel. DRDO scientists, who significantly contributed for

this advanced guidance system, [color="#9932cc"]were thrilled to see the supersonic manoeuvres of the missile in realtime

display, proving the success of their immense efforts[/color]. The flight witnessed by high ranking officials

of the Army, expressed their happiness to have such high potential weapon system inducted into the Army.

Dr A Sivathanu Pillai, DS and CC R&D (DRDO) and CEO and MD BrahMos Aerospace, has confirmed

the success of the mission and described it as a ‘text book launch’. Shri P Venugopalan, Director, DRDL;

Shri SP Dash, Director, ITR; and Shri S Som, Project Director, participated. Defence Minister congratulated

DRDO and BrahMos scientists, Army Officers, and the whole team for the mission successful.

This version is guru of 'S' maneuver that characterized Block-II. Clearly a missile that is razor sharp for taking out battalion and corp command and control hiding in any nook & crany (or buried under ground ) as well as key targets deemed critical for functional of the battalion/corp.



Not to mention taking out missile silos hidden in mountain face that is facing away from Indian border.

[Arun_S]

Right direction, but that brings ISRO and DRDO to same level as pre-POK-II. To say US has lifted curbs on ISRO or DRDO is wrong because all the 3 & 4 letter shitty betty restriction that were designed for India after 1974 POK-I still applies. Export clearance raj is still intact at US commerce dept.







[url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/7357500.cms?prtpage=1"]US lifts curbs on ISRO, DRDO[/url]

Chidanand Rajghatta, TNN, Jan 25, 2011, 04.38am IST WASHINGTON:



The [url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/United-States"]United States[/url] on Monday removed several Indian government defense-related companies, including four subsidiaries each of [url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/search?q=DRDO"]DRDO[/url] (Defense Research and Development Organisation) and [url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/search?q=ISRO"]ISRO[/url] (Indian Space Research Organization), from the so-called Entity List, in an effort to drive hi-tech trade and forge closer strategic ties with India.



With this, the 13-year old squeeze on export of high-tech, dual-use items to the Indian defence and space entities, imposed after India's nuclear tests in 1998, comes to an end. "Today's action marks a significant milestone in reinforcing the US-India strategic partnership and moving forward with export control reforms that will facilitate high technology trade and cooperation," U.S Commerce Secretary [url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Gary-Locke"]Gary Locke[/url] said in a statement after the administration issued a federal notification removing the curbs.



The lifting of curbs, described by the administration as the "first steps" to implement the export control policy initiatives announced by President Obama and Indian Prime Minister Singh on November 8, 2010, precedes a visit to [url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/New-Delhi"]New Delhi[/url] on February 6 of Secretary Locke, who is leading 24 U.S. businesses on a high-tech trade mission to [url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/India"]India[/url] hoping to snag billions of dollars of export orders. It also comes on the eve of India's Republic Day.



The Indian Government-run companies that have been relieved from the onerous curbs on U.S exports include Bharat Dynamics Ltd(BDL), which makes India's missiles and munitions; four subsidiaries of DRDO (Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), Defense Research and Development Lab (DRDL), Missile Research and Development Complex; and Solid State Physics Laboratory); and four subsidiaries of ISRO (Liquid Propulsion Systems Center (LPSC), Solid Propellant Space Booster Plant (SPROB), Sriharikota Space Center (SHAR), and Vikram Sarabhai Space Center (VSSC).



Removing the nine organizations from the [url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/search?q=Entity%20List"]Entity List[/url] eliminates a license requirement specific to the companies, and results in the removed companies being treated the same way as any other destination in India for export licensing purposes, U.S officials explained, rejecting the broad notion that the entities were under sanctions. Most import requests by the Indian entities were considered on a case-by-case basis, with presumption of denial changing to assumption of approval as ties improved after the tense months that followed the nuclear tests.



Now, it would appear the relaxation of export controls is aimed at more than just ginning up hi-tech trade and American exports. An administration official who briefed correspondents on background left little doubt that the relaxation had larger strategic implications, pointing out that the re-ordering of rules to exempt India spanned three U.S administrations and Presidents and two Indian governments and Prime Ministers, and was result of greater engagement and growing trust between the two countries.



Following up on exemptions long sought by India, in a process that involved tortured negotiations, the U.S Commerce Department's Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS) on Monday published a Federal Register Notice which updates the [url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/search?q=Export%20Administration%20Regulations"]Export Administration Regulations[/url] (EAR) relating to India in several ways. They include not just lifting curbs on the Indian entities, but also removing India from several country groups in the EAR resulting in the removal of export license requirements that were tied to India's placement in those country groups. Countries that figure in EAR include [url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/China"]China[/url], [url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Pakistan"]Pakistan[/url], [url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Russia"]Russia[/url], and in some instances, even [url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Israel"]Israel[/url].



In addition, the Obama administration is also paving way to induct India to a country group in the EAR that consists of members of the Missile Technology Control Regime MTCR), "to recognize and communicate India 's adherence to the regime, the U.S.-India strategic partnership, and India 's global non-proliferation standing," the BIS notification said.



While the changes move India into different league altogether, Washington also has several requirements from New Delhi to ensure it stays in line with its non-proliferation goals. "These changes reaffirm the U.S. commitment to work with India on our mutual goal of strengthening the global nonproliferation framework," Under Secretary of Commerce Eric Hirschhorn, said in a statement on the occasion of the changes.