Indian Military Aviation News and Discussion

[ramana]

IAF has short listed Rafale and Eurofighter for the MRCA per news reports.

[Arun_S]

[quote name='ramana' date='27 April 2011 - 10:41 PM' timestamp='1303923818' post='111448']

IAF has short listed Rafale and Eurofighter for the MRCA per news reports.

[/quote]



[url="http://www.samachar.com/Govt-shortlists-Eurofighter-Rafale-for-fighter-jets-Sources-le2aJDdchae.html"]Govt shortlists Eurofighter, Rafale for fighter jets: Sources[/url]

[Arun_S]

http://www.asianage.com/india/india-shor...-order-757



India shortlists Europeans, rejects U.S. for $11 bln jet order: Asian Age

India has rejected U.S. firms for an $11 billion fighter jet contract, shortlisting European firms instead, in a move that could sour its relationship with the United States while broadening its strategic ties with other regions.



The rejection comes despite lobbying from President Barack Obama during a high-profile visit to India five months ago, and coincides with the unexpected resignation of the U.S. ambassador to India, who cited "personal, professional, and family considerations" in a statement on Thursday.



The U.S. embassy in India declined to comment if Timothy Roemer's resignation was linked to the jet decision, with a spokeswoman referring queries to a statement on their website.



Roemer said in a separate statement on India's decision: "We are...deeply disappointed by this news. We look forward to continuing to grow and develop our defense partnership with India."



Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet [size="3"][color="#8b0000"]did not meet[/color] the Indian Air Force's technical requirements[/size], a defence ministry source told Reuters.



"The Americans will be very unhappy and people who have been backing the contract will say India has not sufficiently taken into account the political relationship with the U.S.," said Kanwal Sibal, a former Indian foreign secretary.



"That is a political setback for relations."



Relations between the two democracies have been on the rise after the end of the Cold war, when India was seen as closer to the Soviet Union.



The two nations signed a landmark civil nuclear cooperation deal in 2007 and Obama last year promised to back India's bid for a permanent place on the U.N. Security Council while on his visit with more than 200 business executives.



In his three-day trip -- the longest stay in any foreign country by Obama -- the U.S. leader also announced $10 billion in business deals.



But suspicions remain. India has strived to broad-base its diplomatic relationships, working along with China, Russia and other emerging powers to avoid being perceived as part of the U.S. camp.



India has also been unwilling to commit to greater defence ties, including joint military exercises and patrols.



Obama, meanwhile, has been walking a diplomatic tightrope, on the one hand trying to boost diplomatic and business ties with India while on the other ensuring relations with Pakistan and China, nations often at loggerheads with India, stay stable.



India also ruled out Sweden's Saab JAS-39 and Russia's MiG-35, departing from a long-running tradition of relying mainly on Russian aircraft for its Air Force.



European Showdown



Eurofighter, which makes the Typhoon fighter jet shortlisted for the order, is a four-nation consortium of EADS, representing Germany and Spain, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica. Dassault makes the Rafale.



The contest now sets up a showdown between two multi-role European fighters now actively deployed in policing the no-fly zone over Libya, both hungry for export sales to compensate for defence spending cuts at home.



The order has been keenly contested by global defence firms and has seen lobbying from leaders like Britain's David Cameron, France's Nicholas Sarkozy and Russia's Dmitry Medvedev.



"To the extent that it has come down to the Rafale or Typhoon, the Europeans have, in a sense, won. India is balancing its international relationships," said Howard Wheeldon, senior strategist at BGC Partners in London.



A New Delhi-based spokeswoman for Lockheed said it was told by U.S. authorities that Washington would respond to the Indian defence ministry's letter on the competition.



Saab, in a statement from Sweden, said its plane was not shortlisted for the bid. A Boeing spokeswoman did not respond to requests for a comment.



Dassault and Eurofighter declined comment.



World's Largest Arms Importer



India is the world's largest arms importer, accounting for 9 percent of the global arms trade between 2006 and 2010, according to data from Swedish think-tank Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.



Its defence budget for the year to March 2011 rose 11.6 percent to $36.28 billion, but is still less that half of that officially spent by long-term rival China.



It plans to spend $50 billion over the next five years to upgrade its military, which is largely made-up of Soviet-era equipment, to counter the rising might of China and threats from Pakistan.



New Delhi fears Beijing is trying to strategically encircle it as the two emerging economies compete for resources globally, while Pakistan already has the F-16 fighters in its fleet.



The Indian Air Force, which mainly relies on Russian aircraft and some French Mirage jets, is looking to deploy the new weaponry near the western and north-eastern frontiers to tackle any threat from the two nations.

[Arun_S]

IAF and MoD had to announce it quickly to preclude international pressure (read: USA pressure) to jump teens back in the race.



IAF has done a fine job to test the aircraft objectively, and reject non-technical (read Political interference by none other than PM MM Singh).



All kinds of pressure at the disposal of USA was already applied before the announcement was made.

Uncle "Dushasan" is dead tired / covered in sweat and cursing the rest of world as to why Droupadi is still in cloths.



My respect for IAF top brass and Defense Minister Anthony has gone up many folds.



PM MM Singh has cut a sorry figure. He is used to being openly abused by ministers and ministers of state. Add to that being abused by top echelon of bureaucracy! How low can it go ???<img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



Teens were no pretty teens but sunset beauties in their sixties, that no matter of foundation and aviontions hung up on old fragile but heavy frame could hide the feeling of : "[color="#0000ff"]Shoukeeni Buddiya, Chataii Ka Lehenga[/color]" (Poor but fantionable old women making a Lehnga out of gunny bag fabric)



F16 and F18 failed horrifying bad at more places than Leh (many preset test conditions). Their reputation at the bottom of ranking is not pretty sight.



I am told US is today in Shock and Awe of the terrible reversal in India, when they thought the deal was long bagged with bought over media, PM-MMS and key movers and shakers.

[Guest]

Arun_s,

here is another article,

[url="http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/sanjaya-baru-onwinga-prayer/434100/"]Sanjaya Baru: On a wing and a prayer[/url]

The decision to make India’s choice of fighter jet a purely technical one was, in fact, political.

[rhytha]

Why the critics of India's combat jet deal are wrong





Following a raft of technical tests by the IAF, the Manmohan Singh government has shortlisted the Eurofighter consortium's Typhoon and the French-made Dassault Rafale for a multi-billion dollar fourth generation fighter deal. New Delhi will almost certainly come under intense pressure to review its decision.



Less than six months ago, President Barack Obama described the growing relationship between his country and India as “one of the defining and indispensable partnerships of the 21st century.” India's decision to pick European-made jets to equip its frontline combat jet fleet instead of United States-manufactured competitors has led more than a few to argue that the relationship has already hit a dead-end.



Sadanand Dhume, writing in the journal of the American Enterprise Institute, has argued India has “rebuffed the US offer of a closer strategic partnership”; and Ashley Tellis of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace has argued that New Delhi “settled for a plane, not a relationship.” Indian commentators seem to agree: Nitin Pai, the editor of the strategic journal Pragati, charged India with being “gratuitously generous” to Europe; and The Times of India's Chidanand Rajghatta said the decision had dealt the India-U.S. alliance “a significant blow.”



These critics are thoughtful commentators who need to be taken seriously. They are also wrong.



Like all other transactional dealings between states, arms purchases do indeed have strategic implications. India ought, for sound common sense reasons, to pursue a robust relationship with the United States. It is unclear, though, why the purchase of this particular weapons system ought to undermine the larger strategic relationship between India and the U.S.



If countries like the United Kingdom and France can actually produce and operate combat jets not made by their key strategic partner, the U.S., there is no particular reason why India's decision to buy them ought be seen as a strategic affront. Earlier this year, India picked U.S.-made engines for its Tejas light combat aircraft over European competitors; its strategic relationship with Europe did not fall apart as a consequence. Nor will India and Russia end their enduring military relationship because the MiG31 lost the combat-jet dogfight.



Secondly, the U.S. itself has pursued multiple strategic relationships that best serve its interests — and India, like every other nation state, ought do the same.



Ever since the tragic events of 9/11, the U.S. has supplied Pakistan with a raft of military assets of no conceivable use other than against India — among them, eight P3C Orion maritime surveillance aircraft, 32 F16 variants, Harpoon anti-ship missiles, Sidewinder air-to-air missiles, and anti-artillery radars. K. Alan Krondstadt's 2009 survey for the U.S. Congressional Research Service shows that much of this equipment was paid for through military assistance grants.



American diplomats were made aware of Indian concerns. Back in 2004, Robert O. Blake, the U.S. Charge d'Affaires in New Delhi, had warned in an Embassy cable, accessed by The Hindu through WikiLeaks (23418:confidential, November 30, 2004), that sales of F-16s to Pakistan could “be a blow to those in the GOI [Government of India] who are trying to deepen our partnership.” Mr. Blake again warned, in a 2005 cable, of “universal opposition in India to the supply of sophisticated arms to Pakistan, with the F-16 aircraft symbolizing a US commitment to upgrading the Pakistani armed forces” [28592: confidential, March 11, 2005].



But the administration of President George W. Bush made the argument that such grants would help Pakistan meet its “legitimate defence needs” – and claimed, more disingenuously, that the aircraft would be used for close air support in the war against jihadists.



It would have been churlish for India, though, to make its relationship with the U.S. contingent on how Washington chose to engage Islamabad. It would be similarly churlish for the U.S. to insist that India ought not to exercise its right to buy the best equipment on offer for its money.



The only question ought be: has India picked the right jet?

No such thing as “the best thing”



“Imagine,” says a senior Indian Air Force official, “being asked to pick between a top-end Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar and Ferrari. It would be plain stupid to think of one high-performance car as better than another. For example, one might have better acceleration; another greater range; a third better handling.”



The IAF's Request for Proposals brought into contention the European multinational Eurofighter consortium's Typhoon, the French-made Dassault Rafale, the Swedish Grippen, the Russian MiG35, and the United States' F16IN and FA18.



Each aircraft had distinct advantages: though it has a slow top speed compared with the Eurofighter Typhoon, the F-16IN or the MiG 35, the Grippen had a better sustained turn capability; the Rafale did not manoeuvre well at high speed, but demonstrated outstanding instantaneous turn rates; the Lockheed Martin-produced F16IN and its Boeing rival, the FA18, had the best radar.



The MiG35s, though from a stable that has been plagued by maintenance problems and untested in service in Russia, had genuine multi-role capabilities, would have cost just $45 million apiece, and come with generous transfer-of-technology provisions.



Few are surprised that the Eurofighter appears to be leading the race: the aircraft has won the admiration of Indian pilots who have encountered it in exercises with their British counterparts. In November 2010, The Telegraph reported from London that Eurofighter was closing in on the multi-billion deal.



Dr. Tellis noted, in a thorough scholarly appraisal, that the Typhoon “conformed most closely to the [IAF's] Request for Proposals, and in a purely technical sense, it arguably remains the most sophisticated airplane in the mix – at least in its fully mature configuration, which is still gestating.” Eurofighter advocates point, among other things, that it was the only one of the contenders to demonstrate some supercruise capabilities – which means it can achieve supersonic speeds without the use of afterburners, improving endurance and reducing its radar signature.



Pilots told The Hindu they were also impressed with the aircraft's man-machine interface, which presents data streams from dozens of on-board and off-board sensors on a single screen



But the aircraft, like its European counterparts and the MiG35, also had a significant weakness – the absence of active electronically scanned array radar, or Aesa. Aesa broadcasts signals across a band of frequencies, enabling the radar to at once be powerful and stealthy. Eurofighter variants due to come into service around 2015 will carry an Aesa radar system called Caesar – but the aircraft's competitors pointed out that the radar, unlike those on the F16 and FA18, is untested.



Each U.S. contender was also a remarkable aircraft: although the F16 has been in service in 1979, the variant India was offered was state-of-the-art and proven in combat. Ramesh Phadke, a former Air Force pilot who serves as an analyst at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses in New Delhi, noted the F16 “is destined to be remembered as the best multi-role fighter ever.” The FA18, too, is combat tested, and won over its competitors in some spheres.



In the end, the IAF short-listed the two frontrunners after putting the contenders through a raft of complex technical tests – tests that no one has yet claimed were skewed or rigged. Each firm has been provided a technical appraisal of why its offer was rejected, an appraisal it is free to dispute.



New Delhi will now have to determine which of the two contenders it will choose – and finance could play a key role. The Eurofighter is likely to charge some $125 million apiece, which means the initial purchase of 126 jets will cost India $15.75 billion, and a likely final order of around 200 aircraft, $20 billion. The Rafale is likely to be pegged around $85 million apiece.



Though the Grippen would have cost around the same as the Rafale, the F-16IN and FA-18 would have come at around $60 million each, and the MiG35 a relatively modest $45 million – though, given problems with its engine, the overall life-cycle costs of the Russian jet may not have been much lower than its U.S. competitors.



It is imperative, though, that the decision is made fast. Back in 1969, the IAF determined that it needed 64 squadrons, 45 of them made up of combat aircraft, to defend the country. India's economic situation, however, meant it could build only 45 squadrons, 40 of them made up of combat jets. Even that meant it retained an almost 3:1 advantage over Pakistan through much of the 1980s.



In the years since, though, the en bloc obsolescence of aircraft like the MiG21, MiG23 and MiG25 has meant the IAF's edge has blunted: Pakistan today has 22 squadrons of combat jets, or some 380, to India's 29 squadrons, or 630 fighters.



Pakistan, moreover, has received new jets from the U.S., as well as the JF-17 from China, and a slew of advanced radar and missiles. Its air defence capabilities are due to be enhanced with four Swedish SAAB-2000 jets equipped with Erieye phased-array radar, and Y8 anti-electronic warfare platforms from China.



Even as India's advantage over Pakistan diminishes, it has China to consider – not because a war is probable, or even plausible, but because militaries must plan and be prepared for worst-case scenarios.



For much of its history, China's People's Liberation Army Air Force had a huge air inventory, numbering over 5,000 aircraft, but over three-fifths of this consisted of obsolete MiG19 second-generation fighters. But in recent years, China has moved towards becoming a genuine aerospace power: by 2020, the PLAAF will have more fourth-generation fighters than the entire IAF fleet.



Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's government will almost certainly come under intense pressure to review its decision. It would do well to accept the expert assessment of those who understand its combat aviation needs the best – the women and men who may or may not, one day, have to fly them into danger.



http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/art...epage=true

[Arun_S]

[quote name='Mudy' date='02 May 2011 - 01:43 AM' timestamp='1304280355' post='111460']

Arun_s,

here is another article,

[url="http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/sanjaya-baru-onwinga-prayer/434100/"]Sanjaya Baru: On a wing and a prayer[/url]

The decision to make India’s choice of fighter jet a purely technical one was, in fact, political.

[/quote]

The domestic political preoccupation of the leaders of the world’s largest democracies seems to have weakened the political foundation of an as yet evolving strategic partnership. That alone would explain the politics of a technical decision

PM MMS had a shameful role in pimpimg US pressures to IAF and MoD. PM MMS is even much more weakened after this "I dont-care" re-buff by MoD (that included choicest abuse).



Def Minister Shri A.K. Anthony and IAF held their guns, and eliminated the teens decisively.



MMS did try desperately till last moment to prostitute 40 year old teens.



This alone explains the politics of a technical decision !



Result was US was in state of shock and awe (no exaggeration).

[ramana]

Aruun for you,



Excellent progress report on the night flight trials of LCA from Aviation Week:



Tejas LCA enters key test phase

The Tejas Light Combat Aircraft has certainly tested the patience of the Indian air force and the Indian defense establishment, but the coming weeks may finally yield important breakthroughs to fielding the indigenously developed aircraft.



Next month, Tejas is due to undergo a second phase of night trials and, if the systems perform as advertised, it will be cleared for night attack, a crucial requirement to achieve full operational clearance (FOC) as a day/night, all-weather platform by December 2012.



The Tejas recently began its first phase of night attack trials. The fifth limited-series-production aircraft (LSP‑5), in the final Mk.1 configuration that includes a night-vision-capable cockpit, was used in six night flights in which test pilots conducted mock targeting and attack drills to test simulated avionics and integration of weapons and sensors. The aircraft’s modified ELTA Systems multimode radar and Rafael Litening pod were both tested during the flights.



Following the first six tests last month, India’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) said, “The preliminary results indicate that the integrated system performed very well, meeting the requirements of night operations. The flights also tested the helmet-mounted display system [Elta DASH] and instrument landing system.”



With the Indian air force set on establishing its first Tejas squadron in 2013, the next 16 months are crucial for the project test team. There are several flight-envelope expansion tasks still unfinished, including assessing angle of attack, g-forces and sustained turn rate. The next limited-series-production aircraft, LSP-6, is expected to be dedicated to resolving those issues quickly.



The air force is putting pressure on developments. Before Tejas reached initial operational clearance (IOC), the service waived some requirements, but it is firm it will not do so again for FOC, Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Naik made clear during a Tejas ceremony in January when IOC was attained. “We’ve waited a long time for the Tejas. We don’t want a partial platform. We want everything fully operational,” he said.



The absence of certain capabilities that the Tejas team promised but could not deliver for IOC in January 2011 did not please the service, which was finally forced to extract assurances that the untested capabilities will be completed by next month. These include wake penetration tests as well as all-weather, day/night and lightning clearances. Several test points in weapons delivery in different configurations remain on the team’s must-do list and will continue through into next year. So far, the Tejas has only conducted live drops of gravity bombs and Vympel R-73 (AA-11 Archer) short-range air-to-air missiles. Strike profiles are being tested at the DRDO’s new bombing range outside Bengaluru.



In the next few months, Tejas platforms will fire air-to-ground munitions such as cluster weapons, laser-guided bombs and S-8 rocket pods against still and moving targets. Rafael’s Derby beyond-visual-range missile is expected to be a standard on the Tejas, with trials scheduled a year from now. Reports suggest a contract could be signed shortly. In its final Mk.1 configuration, the air force also expects the Tejas to be fully capable of deploying Kh-59-series stand-off strike weapons and Kh-35/31 antiship missiles.



The next big item on the program time line is the first flight of the LCA navy variant, expected in the next two months. Its progress has been delayed by issues with weight, landing gear and sink-rate parameters.



Meanwhile, India’s troubled and hugely delayed Kaveri turbofan engine development effort—once linked to the Tejas program—has made some progress in flight trials. Between November 2010 and April this year, the engine has powered an Iluyshin Il-76 flying testbed on 11 flights outside Moscow. The Kaveri, delinked from the Tejas program several years ago because of persistent failures to meet requirements, is being completed in cooperation with Snecma (and its M88 ECO core) for India’s fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft and, in a modified form, the country’s concept stealth unmanned combat aircraft known as AURA.



Photo: Aviation Week

[Arun_S]

[url="http://www.deccanchronicle.com/editorial/dc-comment/flying-lemon-200"]A flying lemon[/url]

May 26, 2011 By Bharat Karnad



The anger in Washington policy circles when the US fighter planes — the Lockheed-Martin F-16IN and the Boeing F-18 Super Hornet — did not make it to the Indian Air Force’s Medium-range Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) shortlist, was a thing to behold. It was as if an ungrateful India had reneged on a done aircraft deal — just rewards for easing India’s entry on to the verandah of the five-country nuclear weapons club.



The American incomprehension with the Indian decision is itself incomprehensible. Lockheed and Boeing actually believed they would win with platforms of late 1960s vintage jazzed up with a downgraded Raytheon APG-79 (or even a de-rated “81”) version of the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) look-down, ground-mapping, radar. The Indian Air Force is not the most advanced but its leadership, despite its flaws, knows when it is being palmed off with yesterday’s goods. Had Washington offered the Joint Strike Fighter, the F-35 Lightning II, the IAF would have jumped at it and the decision would have been hurrahed along by the Prime Minister, Dr Manmohan Singh. In the event, the French Rafale and the EADS (European Aeronautic Defence and Space) Company’s Typhoon Eurofighter progressed even as Lockheed and Boeing were sought to be pacified with two transport aircraft deals — the one for the C-130J making sense, the other for the C-17 not. Russia, likewise, was mollified with collaboration on the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). To my consternated friends in Washington who sought an explanation, I offered an analogy. Some two decades back, the Daimler-Benz car company entered the Indian market with older Mercedes models, convinced the cash-rich yokels would splash good money for anything with the three-cornered star on the bonnet. The old cars, remained unsold and the investment in production jigs and tools in their factory in Pune went waste. The Germans quickly corrected course, offering the newest Mercedes models, available in Dusseldorf, in Delhi.



The sale of Rafale or Eurofighter to India is a lifeline to both the Dassault Company and the French aviation sector generally and the four-country consortium producing, so far unviably, the latter aircraft that an expert acquaintance dismissed as something “Germany doesn’t want, Britain can’t afford, and Spain and Italy neither want nor can afford!” But, leverage-wise, it affords India traction with four European countries instead of just France in case Rafale is taken. But is either of these aircraft genuinely multi-role?



Dr Carlo Kopp, an internationally renowned combat aviation specialist, deems the Typhoon, a non-stealthy, short-range (300 nautical miles) air defence/air dominance fighter optimised for transonic manoeuvres, more a “lemon” than a “demon”. Italian Air Force Chief Gen. Vincenzo Camporini, moreover, declared in 2008 that this plane was incapable of an “attack role in an economically sustainable manner”, in part because EADS has no AESA radar. It hopes to develop one with the infusion of Indian monies if Typhoon is selected. Realistically, India will not get the strike variant until well into the 2020s as the Royal Air Force and the German Luftwaffe, for starters, will have the first lien on it. In short, for over a third of its lifetime, the IAF will have to make do with the more limited air defence version which, in effect, is an avionics-wise souped-up, ergonomically improved, MiG-21! Moreover, to expect timely, coordinated, supply of spares and service support from 20-odd countries (including Croatia!) roped into the Eurofighter programme will be a compounded logistics and maintenance nightmare.



Rafale is a smaller, semi-stealth plane with slightly better un-refuelled range than the Typhoon but, equipped with the RBE-22A AESA radar, can undertake ground attack, including nuclear weapon delivery. Critically, it has finessed the algorithm (patented, incidentally, by an Indian scientist) for more effective fusion of data from numerous on-board and external sensors (such as satellite) better than the Eurofighter. Except, as late as 2009, Rafale was ruled operationally inadequate perhaps because it is less agile in “dogfighting” — a role the IAF brass remains enamoured with long after advanced tactical missiles have made close-quarter aerial battle history. Rafale and Typhoon nevertheless cost a bomb, with the MMRCA eventually coming in at around $20 billion.



The F-16 was rejected because, in part, the Pakistan Air Force flies it. By this reckoning, Pakistan may also access Typhoon and Rafale. EADS is trying desperately to sell the Typhoon to Turkey. If it succeeds, PAF will end up familiarising itself with it, if not actually benefiting from surreptitious transfer of its technologies. Trying to ramp up its defence sales, France has explored the sale of Rafale to Pakistan as has Russia the MiG-35 in order to compete with China for influence in Islamabad (which is not barred by any provision in the FGFA deal with India).



The MMRCA is a rubbish acquisition. [color="#0000FF"]The defence ministry followed up the questionable decision with a singular display of lack of negotiating savvy. With the MiG-35 option on the table, India could have played the Europeans off against the Russians to secure the best terms, even if ultimately for Rafale/Typhoon. Instead, there’s the appalling record of defence ministry officials and service officers repeatedly muffing deals, worse, acting as patsies for, or playing footsy with, the supplier states, resulting in treasury-emptying contracts that have fetched the country little in return. [/color]



Learning from the past, defence minister A.K. Antony had better instruct his negotiators to insist on only phased payments linked to time-bound delivery of aircraft and full transfer of technology (including source codes and flight control laws for all aspects of the aircraft), and on deterrent penalties that automatically kick in at the slightest infringement or violation of clauses deliberately tilted to favour India. Considering Delhi — prior to signing the deal — is in a position to arm-twist almost anything out of the supplier firms using the threat of walking out on the deal, the litmus test of a “successful” MMRCA transaction will be whether, by way of offsets, and notwithstanding the initial problems with absorbing advanced technology, the Indian defence industry has gained top-edge technological-industrial competence across the broad combat aviation front (rather than rights to mere licenced manufacture as in past deals).



Bharat Karnad is professor at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi





Source URL: [url="http://www.deccanchronicle.com/editorial/dc-comment/flying-lemon-200"]http://www.deccanchr...lying-lemon-200[/url]

[ramana]

Response from US ex-officials in Hindu



‘After MMRCA, stay the course on defence ties'

[Arun_S]

[quote name='ramana' date='24 May 2011 - 11:47 PM' timestamp='1306260598' post='111678']

Aruun for you,



Excellent progress report on the night flight trials of LCA from Aviation Week:



[url="http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awst/2011/05/16/AW_05_16_2011_p26-321521.xml&headline=Tejas%20LCA%20Enters%20Key%20Test%20Phase&channel=defense"]Tejas LCA enters key test phase[/url]





[/quote]



Tejas-II has all the trappings of being equivalent to MMRCA because its peer Swedish Grippen was a worthy competitor in MMRCA race.



IMHO there are two major reason IAF went for MMRCA race was:

1. Back in 1999 IAF was not sure LCA will see light of day. But as LCA did beat its detractors and its performance was close to what IAF asked for 20 years ago. It saw the very attractive possibility of having another advanced variant of LCA to serve a new sets of requirements for next 3 decades, albeit with new set of ASR(Air Staff Requirements). And that is Tejas Mk-II
2. Tejas Mark-II will be fully developed will all possible Air to Air and Air to Ground weapons tested, and multi sensor network fusion done perhaps 7 years after IOC in 2015) viz 2022. That kind of time gap IAF cant afford to be naked and disarmed, thus an MMRCA that is primed for battle now is so critical; and ability to have 80 of these aircraft in active service in next 5 years is most critical.

JMT

[Raj Malhotra]

Re Arun_S



What about the advantage of USA in AESA tech?

[Arun_S]

[quote name='Raj Malhotra' date='31 May 2011 - 09:08 AM' timestamp='1306812625' post='111740']

Re Arun_S



What about the advantage of USA in AESA tech?

[/quote]

US is an aging but experienced women, who had applied the most fabulous breast enlargement to be the most voluptuous chest asset.

US still thinks it is the most endowed teen in the party, and its suitors have to take the whole self, the most endowed part as well the old haggard baggage of age and ingrained infidelity. And yes no source code to fabulous breast enlargement procedure. The down side is the customer does not know if goods are defective, or worse if it is malignant, so that it has life of its own, and the radar will fuse with US net-centric cluster without customer knowing that hanky panky is happening away from its sight.



Indian Air Staff Requirement does not call for immediate availability of AESA, but demonstrable AESA in air or ground setup with credible roadmap to flight worthiness.



So India is investing in European young teens, where vital asset will over time is assured of growth, and source code means its is trustworthy, and during moment of truth it will assuredly do what it is commanded to do.



If US changes it mind & is willing to disconnect AESA from the haggard platform, and in true partnership trust India with source code, it may find Indian defense forces interest for some future project like UCAV or something. Else they will stay put to be the loser for ever.



BTW US defense budget is past its prime and in serious constriction (R&D is seriously curtailed and will last few decades if not forever), thus its AESA edge (along with other hi tech military edge) is now frozen in time with hardly any room for innovation much less ability to match development outside USA. Who wants to buddy such USA even if it is magically offered tomorrow?

[Raj Malhotra]

USA will put AESA on thousands of fighters and hundreds are already flying with AESA. Can France and Euros with projected production run of few dozen AESA ever come close? Teen may remain breastless teen due to economic/genetic problemos.

[ravicv]

[quote name='Raj Malhotra' date='01 June 2011 - 07:43 PM' timestamp='1306985707' post='111762']

USA will put AESA on thousands of fighters and hundreds are already flying with AESA. Can France and Euros with projected production run of few dozen AESA ever come close? Teen may remain breastless teen due to economic/genetic problemos.

[/quote]



Malhotra Maharaj,



AESA is a citical component, but it's not the only factor in winning an air war. Further a derated/downgraded AESA without source codes is not a desirable acquisition. FYI, the Rafale with a RBE-2 PESA radar has thrashed opponents having ASA in both BVR and WVR combat. Finally, for your consolation, the Rafale which the IAF will receive if Dassault wins the contract will have the RBE-2 AA AESA which is stable and pretty mature.

[Arun_S]

[quote name='qubit' date='02 June 2011 - 12:38 PM' timestamp='1306998048' post='111764']

Malhotra Maharaj,



AESA is a citical component, but it's not the only factor in winning an air war. Further a derated/downgraded AESA without source codes is not a desirable acquisition. FYI, the Rafale with a RBE-2 PESA radar has thrashed opponents having ASA in both BVR and WVR combat. Finally, for your consolation, the Rafale which the IAF will receive if Dassault wins the contract will have the RBE-2 AA AESA which is stable and pretty mature.

[/quote]



Raj: Qubit has hit it on the nail. Let me also say that he is very informed on this subject.



Please don't take offense to his "maharaj" honorifics (he does that to friends, including yours faithfully).

[Arun_S]

India okays biggest deal with US for C-17s at $4.1 bn

[url="http://www.samachar.com/India-okays-biggest-deal-with-US-for-C17s-at-41-bn-lgguL0dciej.html"]http://www.samachar.com/India-okays-biggest-deal-with-US-for-C17s-at-41-bn-lgguL0dciej.html[/url]

[Raj Malhotra]

[quote name='qubit' date='02 June 2011 - 12:38 PM' timestamp='1306998048' post='111764']

Malhotra Maharaj,



AESA is a citical component, but it's not the only factor in winning an air war. Further a derated/downgraded AESA without source codes is not a desirable acquisition. FYI, the Rafale with a RBE-2 PESA radar has thrashed opponents having ASA in both BVR and WVR combat. Finally, for your consolation, the Rafale which the IAF will receive if Dassault wins the contract will have the RBE-2 AA AESA which is stable and pretty mature.

[/quote]



From open sources the radars being offered with F-18/16 went into serial production around 2003-6. The issue is whether the Rafale AESA which we will get in 2016 or thereabouts be more advanced inspite of 10 year difference or US will continue to hold the advantage. That is to say, whether the leading edge French tech would be better or not, compared to trailing edge US tech?? I don't think that there is any simple answer to this question.

[ravicv]

[quote name='Raj Malhotra' date='17 June 2011 - 08:59 PM' timestamp='1308372694' post='111976']

From open sources the radars being offered with F-18/16 went into serial production around 2003-6. The issue is whether the Rafale AESA which we will get in 2016 or thereabouts be more advanced inspite of 10 year difference or US will continue to hold the advantage. That is to say, whether the leading edge French tech would be better or not, compared to trailing edge US tech?? I don't think that there is any simple answer to this question.

[/quote]



Malhotra Maharaj,



The RBE2-AA radar which will be on the Rafale which India has been offered has GaN modules and uses SiGe semiconductors to establish the lower threshold for beam formation. This is a first rate radar, in addition to the fact that it is not downgraded and all the source codes will be made available to the Indians. However, if it pleases you, for your divine sake, I would be happy to say that the RBE2-AA radar is inferior to the early WWII ones!



I told you above, its not only the radar that counts. Its the sensor fusion, the airframe characteristics, weapons, weapons + fuel load,...... along with a number of issues that make for a good aircraft. How can the IAF chose a/c that flunked in the all important Leh test? Perhaps these are issues you should provide answers to!

[Arun_S]

Please note that the next war will be on two fronts and one of that front will involve operating at high altitude airfields like Leh and Daulat Baag O. Currently these airfields operate few combat aircraft types that IMHO will retire in about 5 years and that will leave only Mirage2000 capable of operating there.





qubit: I would like to plead with you to please note use terms like "Maharaj" and "Web Master", I will be grateful.