Indian Missile News And Discussion

[emperor]

Why is that many people comparing the CEP in BM role to that of an ASAT role?



Isnt it the diff between oranges and apples?



For BM role, since our phizzile nukes comes into equation and so we have to worry about accuracy in delivering what we have got, while for ASAT role, the sat will be orbiting say 20,000kmph at 600km LEO even a tiny frag will be deadly for the sat survival. So technically there is no need of having a single digit CEP for ASAT role. A blast fragmented directional warhead will do the job <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



I see A-IV as the most likely candidate for ASAT role rather than A-V. One cost being the primary factor with almost 10-15 crores diff between the two.



Ans since, A-II production has been standardized and is in serial production stage,A-IV might take over utilizing the same infra/tooling with only difference being more composite motors/maraging steel.

[osman]

[quote name='Chandragupta' date='01 May 2012 - 07:56 AM' timestamp='1335838732' post='114773']

Why is that many people comparing the CEP in BM role to that of an ASAT role?



Isnt it the diff between oranges and apples?



For BM role, since our phizzile nukes comes into equation and so we have to worry about accuracy in delivering what we have got, while for ASAT role, the sat will be orbiting say 20,000kmph at 600km LEO even a tiny frag will be deadly for the sat survival. So technically there is no need of having a single digit CEP for ASAT role. A blast fragmented directional warhead will do the job <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



I see A-IV as the most likely candidate for ASAT role rather than A-V. One cost being the primary factor with almost 10-15 crores diff between the two.



Ans since, A-II production has been standardized and is in serial production stage,A-IV might take over utilizing the same infra/tooling with only difference being more composite motors/maraging steel.

[/quote]



Actually the CEP for BMD needs to be single digit. I was wrong to the extent to state if ASAT then single digit CEP. It should be if BMD then ASAT and single digit CEP. This comparison is offered by DRDO in one of it's press releases. I just took it to it's logical conclusion. The article stated DRDO had the capability to achieve BMD where 0.1m is the cross section available and therefore a satellite with a cross section of 1 meter can be taken out. ASAT weapons are usually kinetic maybe Arun can correct me if he has further research on this.



Please also note that Agni V is our ASAT weapon.Our program is also considered integrated guided missile development program. Brahmos shares features with Agni V, so does BMD and ASAT. So the CEP of Agni V also follows from the ASAT weapon which has been linked to our BMD ability. It's DRDO encouraged signalling. I just put it all together.



The amount of material which came out after this test is unprecedented. To put it all together isn't an easy task. I welcome other suggestions however I stand by this statement.



If we have BMD then we have ASAT and single digit CEP given that Agni V is our ASAT. If Agni V does not have single digit CEP at 5000km it's CEP at longer ranges will be worse. I am quiet convinced it's got single digit CEP from the reports posted by ramana. Also note the Agni V has dual redundant guidance. The .001 figure could be for the less accurate guidance which is also part of Agni III. The guidance problems were solved as per reports by solving cooling using soc weighing 200grams. This could also have been due to materials in the third stage re-entry composites.



http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/agni-...86248.html



Edits to remove typos and for clarity.

[osman]

Looks like end user trials if we add what's stated here with the NDTV interview. We are happy with the missile parameters and are planning on only two more tests. They must have the rest of the tracking data from ships which returned to India. I suppose they could have sent the data using imarsat?



HYDERABAD: Imagine an Agni-V that can be fired from your neighbourhood! The armed forces will soon have an inter-continental ballistic missile ( ICMB) that can be fired from anywhere. No, it is not necessary to do it from the Wheeler Island off the Orissa coast. The long-range 5,000-km missile with a nuclear warhead can be fired from any open place and the enemy will not even be able to guess from where the deadly weapon will be fired.



The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which is savouring the successful test-firing of the Agni-V, is now preparing for another test launch of the missile. This test will not be from Wheeler Island where the Integrated Test Range ( ITR) is located.



"The missile will be put in a canister and launched. After the lid of the canister is opened, the missile takes off as a result of the high pressure generation of gas inside it," Avinash Chander, distinguished scientist and chief controller, R&D (missiles and strategic systems), DRDO, told TOI.



As a result of the hot gas ejecting the missile out of the canister, the missile ignites in mid-air and glides away. This launch of the missile will be quite different from what one had seen at Wheeler Island where the missile left a huge trail of flame while lifting off the ground.



When the missile takes off from the canister, the flames will be seen only about 30 metres from above the ground in the Agni-V that will be tested fired sometime towards the end of the year. "We are getting ready with two different types of canisters in which the missile can be placed and test fired. The armed forces will be able to fire the missile from anywhere," Avinash Chander said. A canister is a metal enclosure for the missile. The missile will fit comfortably in the canister and will have a facility for an opening on the top. The armed forces have been closely associated with the development of the Agni missiles and have already inducted Agni-1, Agni-II and Agni-III into the army. The induction of Agni-1V and Agni-V is also planned.



Only after two or three test-firing trials of the Agni-V are conducted from canisters will the long range inter-continental ballistic missile be inducted into the armed forces. It will be possible to move the ICBM anywhere by road at a short notice and fire it in any direction.

[emperor]

I seriously doubt the authenticity of the above report. In a war time scenario, YES a launch from civilian positions highly possible. But during testing phase? a big NO NO.



Looks like someone got the stuff mixed up. Forsure the next follow on test will be from launcher with new composite first stage. DRDO was given a mandate to expedite the process in the realization of a fully operational ICBM.Dont even get surprised if you see 2 more A-V tests before the end of this year.



MOD was in a big mess. Lots of sensitive docs has changed hands thereby throwing the national security at a high risk. And to deter the only possible aggressor,it is expediting every deterrent and procurement that really comes handy.



There was also talk of ABM getting into LSP. This will operationally supplement the S-300PMU in the Capital zone in the beginning and latter will take over the role with new mizziles.



Upgraded LRTR is almost done.One tune up is done,ready for testing.This can be expected before the summer of 2013.

A 10 numbers of LRTR with 600-800km range were already ordered.



Even the current LRTR configuration is picking satellites in the LEO under different modes of operation.

[osman]

[quote name='Chandragupta' date='01 May 2012 - 05:27 PM' timestamp='1335872993' post='114776']

I seriously doubt the authenticity of the above report. In a war time scenario, YES a launch from civilian positions highly possible. But during testing phase? a big NO NO.



Looks like someone got the stuff mixed up. Forsure the next follow on test will be from launcher with new composite first stage. DRDO was given a mandate to expedite the process in the realization of a fully operational ICBM.Dont even get surprised if you see 2 more A-V tests before the end of this year.



MOD was in a big mess. Lots of sensitive docs has changed hands thereby throwing the national security at a high risk. And to deter the only possible aggressor,it is expediting every deterrent and procurement that really comes handy.



There was also talk of ABM getting into LSP. This will operationally supplement the S-300PMU in the Capital zone in the beginning and latter will take over the role with new mizziles.



Upgraded LRTR is almost done.One tune up is done,ready for testing.This can be expected before the summer of 2013.

A 10 numbers of LRTR with 600-800km range were already ordered.



Even the current LRTR configuration is picking satellites in the LEO under different modes of operation.

[/quote]



The tests may or may not be from Wheeler Island. Moving the origin of the missile launch makes it more difficult for China to track. If you notice Saraswat stated we don't have sensors in the air and needed ships at midpoint to track the missile. I would assume it's the same for China which has a listening post in Mayanmar cost. This could also help with keeping the range configuration and package configuration or MIRV under wraps.



The other way to look at the above report when looked at with a report from BK where he states MMS refused to authorize AGNI V for 2 years until Antony in 2011 put his foot down. The MIRV configuration as Arun has expressed earlier in Agni III has been waiting for tests for five(?) years according to the news report, maybe more. The possibility which is being discounted is all of these missiles are closet missiles. They were tested as other missiles and are being disclosed as a deterrent. Our south china activities were not viewed favorably by China and China has been making inroads in POK. We need China to sit up and take notice.



There was a possibility that the SLBM missiles which had been tested more than 10 times was Agni IV or something similar in configuration, cold launched. Saraswat in one of the news reports states the SLBM is a different game where the pressure on the missile is higher than a land based missile. Maybe the SLBM tests did seal our canisterization process which is shared with bhramos but much larger. Russia for a long time had it's road mobile missiles with a cold launch using sea water to generate steam for cold launch. Agni V canister may be a modified SLBM canister with variations in size given Agni V is not subjected to the same pressure required in an undersea launch.

[osman]

I also wonder if Arun's analysis of the impending nuclear tests will come true in light of our failed Indo-US nuclear deal. Something Anil Kakodkar calls "betrayal". The liability bill will be buried if a different party gets to power and the Indo-US deal will be given a starved death by limiting the foreign reactors.



http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2816/sto...611900.htm

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ar...151381.ece (It's seems like a smug no.)

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/analysis/...k-for-each



The obvious issue here revolves around whether the import of uranium we have right now will help us bridge the gap towards a self sufficient thorium program in fast track mode. If we boot strap the thorium reactors in 10 years. We have moved towards the five fast breeders in plan soon with experiments on higher breeding ratio in at least one of them. Our own AP uranium mines with one of the largest uranium deposits being brought online. Almost all the civilian reactors being stockpiled with IAEA safeguarded uranium imports, freeing up the rest of the uranium for our three stage nuclear power program boot strap.



It looks like a question of when the devices will be tested for deterrence. Of course all this depends on the present government backing BARC and keeping the foreign plants to a minimum. This seems to be a question mark on keeping out foreign reactors. Once the Thorium reactors are boot strapped the earlier reactors are not critical is the reading I get.So a few abandoned foreign reactors will be a short term pinch and not a long term detraction on a road to an energy secure India. It's fascinating how a lot of these issues are inter-connected.

[ramana]

The deal was offered by India to get out of the NSG dog house. They attached all kinds of conditionalities in Hyde Act and are surprised that the Liability Act makes them liable in case of an accident. After Fukushima no one wants to take chances with clean up costs. Furthere there is the Unon Carbide track record.

[osman]

[quote name='ramana' date='02 May 2012 - 01:16 AM' timestamp='1335901130' post='114780']

The deal was offered by India to get out of the NSG dog house. They attached all kinds of conditionalities in Hyde Act and are surprised that the Liability Act makes them liable in case of an accident. After Fukushima no one wants to take chances with clean up costs. Furthere there is the Unon Carbide track record.

[/quote]



Well I am not sure we are out of the NSG dog house. Anil Kakodkar feels the gentleman's agreement was breached and we were lead up the garden path. A lot of us even back then were skeptical on the Hyde Amendment. The ENR restrictions should have been the final nail in the coffin of the nuclear deal. With too many foreign plants our phatakas will never see the light of day. Maybe there is a bigger nuclear deal scam in progress with non competitive allocation of foreign plants as well. After these come online, we don't have guaranteed supply lines or storage of fuel for these reactors. We also need to use our own scarce ENR plants for all these foreign plants delaying our third stage boot strap. Also note that Anil Kakodkar even after the French statements pointed out that there is nothing on ENR transfer on the deal signed with France.The French have agreed to abide by the agreement and are silent on the president's declaration of providing ENR plants to India. Russia enacted a law on non export to non NPT countries of ENR technology even before the indian nuclear deal. Hilary Clinton responds in hyperboles on ENR. MMS never brought the deal to the parliament as promised.



The only reprieve we got through the deal which is still intact is the nuclear fuel import restrictions being lifted. It also goes out with a nuclear test. I don't see how we can continue down the garden path with lots of imported reactors as stated in the sunday guardian article and still test again unless we get enough from the deal to bootstrap the thorium only plants which can then be used to bootstrap other thorium only plants.

[ramana]

osman, please post just the links to the AK statements on the shortcomings of the IUCNA deal.



Thanks, ramana

[osman]

[quote name='ramana' date='03 May 2012 - 04:22 AM' timestamp='1335998686' post='114784']

osman, please post just the links to the AK statements on the shortcomings of the IUCNA deal.



Thanks, ramana

[/quote]



I am not sure if you want me to post quotes from his interview. The most detailed article on this subject is the frontline article.



http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2816/sto...611900.htm



Anil Kakodkar, former Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) and one of the key negotiators of the civil nuclear cooperation agreements, in particular the 123 Agreement, wrote thus after the NSG announced its new guidelines on ENR transfers ( The Hindu, July 3): “It negates the positive and forward-looking orientation with respect to ENR issues that was built into bilateral and multilateral agreements developed as part of international civil nuclear cooperation. The NSG waiver for India now seems to have been circumscribed.... The United States, Russia and France have issued statements reiterating their adherence to understandings with India. One would only hope that this does not amount to doublespeak and the NSG waiver in respect of the NPT condition that was granted to India earlier remains undiluted in respect of ENR transfers as well. The statements of these countries are far from being explicit in this respect.”



What is, however, obvious, which Kakodkar too has noted elsewhere, is that the NSG decision will target India alone as it is the only country among the three non-NPT countries that have been granted a waiver for nuclear commerce with NSG countries.



Other links already posted above:



http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ar...151381.ece



Links not posted earlier:

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes...logies-npt

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/article2156230.ece

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ar...347279.ece

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ar...151381.ece

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2816/sto...611900.htm

[osman]

Double post

[osman]

Further links:

Please notice the change of our position on ENR from US, France and Russia.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes....clear-pact



"The civil nuclear deal with the US says that ENR transfer would be subject to an amendment. It is important to remember though that the US has not ruled it out," said highly placed government officials, adding that the NSG issue would be taken up in the crucial India-US strategic dialogue scheduled for July 19.



However, until now what India has is only a verbal assurance from France for ENR transfer. With Russia, negotiations are still on for ENR transfer even though Moscow does seem favourably inclined to such a transfer, as its officials in Delhi told TOI after the NSG turnaround.



In the case of the civil nuclear deal with the US, the agreement states that sensitive technologies and their components may not be "transmitted" unless the agreement is amended. In fact, right from the inception of the civil nuclear agreement in 2005, the US has maintained that it is not going to supply ENR technology to India, or for that matter any other country, as this was not essential for generating peaceful nuclear energy. In the case of India though, it does refer to an amendment in the event of any decision to facilitate ENR transfer.



http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes....g-decision



Foreign secretary Nirupama Rao has dropped hints that India may not buy nuclear reactors from countries which refuse to sell enrichment and reprocessing (ENR) technology to it.



Rao said the sanctity of the clean exemption that India was granted in the September 2008 NSG decision and full bilateral civil nuclear cooperation commitments that have been effected between India and its various partners were of utmost importance to India. "And both these points, let me mention, have been recognized by our chief partners in this regard -- by the United States, by France, by Russia," she said.





http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes....g-decision



Krishna also clarified that India possessed ENR technology of its own, but needed international transfers to accelerate the scale of the Indian programme. "India has full mastery of the entire nuclear fuel cycle, and this includes enrichment and reprocessing technology... Government is committed to taking forward our domestic three-stage nuclear power programme. India is among the handful of countries that has developed fast breeder technology. Access to enrichment and reprocessing technology from abroad, as part of international civil nuclear cooperation, is only an additionality to accelerate our three-stage programme," Krishna said.



It's a concern in the beginning, then a direct link was established between nuclear commerce and ENR and now the statement that we are self sufficient. There is also a statement of hope that France and Russia will abide by it's commitments. The US has already given us an explicit NO. It's clear from the articulation. What gives? Is there too much elbow grease for the politicians to push the deal at all costs and pressure on the DAE to dilute it's position? It worries me. The self sufficiency and reconciliation statement in the last article scares me the most.



The hindu article was spot on:



French president signs "bilateral agreement"/"intergovernmental agreement" + makes a pledge that we will get ENR which is not in the agreement.



In 2011, NSG adopts a measure that all NSG countries will not supply ENR technologies to countries which have not signed the NPT. The only non NPT signatories who are allowed to trade in nuclear materials are Indians. The other countries are Israel, Pakistan and now NK which has withdrawn from the NPT.



It applies to these other countries which can't at all trade in any nuclear materials let alone ENR technologies. So the only country to whom it applies is India. After the NSG rule change.



The french ambassador states. We will abide by the bilateral agreement. The presidential pledge is forgotten. It's just words. Omission conveying what will not happen in diplomatic language.

Anil Kakodkar the chief negotiator has already stated this is betrayal unless there are secret agreements which are in place which are not part of the bilateral agreement which he was involved in.



The atomic energy commission chairman of France repeats the same statement of his Ambassador with the same omission.



Now, we also know there were oblique references in the French and Russian bilateral agreements. It remains to be seen if these oblique references are still valid or as the last posted article suggests there is only Indian hope that French and Russians will give us ENR. I don't know too much about diplomacy. However providing India ENR will make India energy sufficient without having to import reactors from anyone in a decade or two. I am not sure any country wants that. I still remember the statement energy security is also strategic security. It's really ironic,I fear we will lose energy security too without ENR imports and only fuel dependent foreign reactors.

[osman]

http://www.frontline.in/stories/20120518290912400.htm



Frontline on Agni V. A lot of details. Did not post the entire article. Just technical details.



At 8-07 a.m., as the Agni-V shot out smoothly from its launch pad, roared into the sky and built up a powerful thrust, there was no doubt about the mission's success. The three stages ignited on time and their separation was clean and precise. The missile climbed to a height of about 600 km before starting to descend. The powered flight, with the three stages igniting and separating, lasted about 220 seconds. As each stage fired and decoupled, the MCC and the adjacent hall reverberated with applause. There was a long gap between the third stage separation and the re-entry vehicle knifing into the atmosphere at an altitude of 100 km.After the third stage separated and the re-entry vehicle was ejected at a velocity of about six km a second, the mood in the MCC was relaxed.



The DRDO's missile technologists were sure that “the re-entry vehicle will not go anywhere”. Even if no data were available after the powered flight phase got over, “we would have known precisely where the re-entry vehicle had gone”, they said. In fact, when the third stage ejected the re-entry vehicle at a velocity of 6 km a second, it became the fastest travelling object made by India, speeding at 25 Mach, or 25 times the speed of sound.



“The third stage separation was the determining point,” Sekaran explained later. “After that, gravity takes over. Subsequently, nothing will happen. Nothing can happen also. It [the re-entry vehicle] is a free body travelling under gravity. It becomes what you call a ballistic flight.”



The re-entry vehicle itself is a technological marvel, housing the missile's avionics and the nuclear warhead. Indeed, it houses all the electronics systems for navigation, guidance and control and the on-board computers. The avionics are within the missile's nose cone, which is made of carbon-carbon composites. The re-entry vehicle is protected by a heat shield, which is made out of carbon composite fibre. In this mission, the Agni-V carried a warhead that mimicked a nuclear bomb but without the radioactive material. {full test sans the radioactive material to test the survivability of the trigger}



The re-entry itself is a critical manoeuvre for the vehicle should slice itself into the atmosphere at the correct angle. The levels of deceleration should be perfect although the loads acting on the re-entry vehicle are very high. Besides, the survival of the re-entry vehicle is important. Its carbon composite tiles, a couple of inches thick on its outer surface, should withstand scorching temperatures of more than 5,0000 Celsius as it slices into the atmosphere. But the temperature inside the re-entry vehicle should not be more than 500C{50?} so as not to harm the electronics equipment in the nose cone. “At that stage, the outer layer starts burning and the package inside should survive and be functional at 500C…. Over a few inches of thickness, the temperature drops from 5,0000C to 500C,” Chander explained.



After about 20 minutes of flight, when the dummy warhead carrying explosives erupted into a fireball and hit the waters of the Indian Ocean somewhere between Australia and Madagascar, another round of applause rang out in the MCC. The re-entry vehicle's impact point in the Indian Ocean was more than 5,000 km from Dhamra in the Bay of Bengal. The fireball was captured by cameras on three naval ships stationed downrange near the impact point. Agni-V was a spectacular success on its maiden flight itself.



Sekaran argued that “the critical, deciding factor was the propulsion” system used in the three stages of the missiles. This was the first time that the DRDO was test-firing a three-stage missile, all powered by solid propellants. {better thrust for given weight?}



According to Chander, Agni-V was “a game-changer in many ways”. First, he said, “You can reach all targets of your interest from deep inside India. You have got a system which allows you to reach the farthest corners where you want to exert your influence while you have sufficient protection for yourself.” Secondly, it can be launched from a canister and a road-mobile launcher, that is, a massive truck with a trailer. “It will give you ‘a stop and launch' capability,” the DRDO Chief Controller said. The road-mobile launcher can stop at a roadside, fire the missile and go away. So it will be difficult to intercept it, beat it or defeat it during its launch phase because its mobility will be high.



Thirdly, the composite motors of the size used in Agni-V has given the DRDO the confidence to go for missiles with larger motors and manoeuvring warheads because the motor casings, made out of composites, will be light in weight but provide a higher performance.{was that the reason for conical motors? Will the mirv also have these manoeuvering motors on warheads?}



Although the DRDO's missile complex in Hyderabad comprising the DRDL, the ASL and the Research Centre, Imarat (RCI) played important roles in developing the components, systems and subsystems for Agni-V, the ASL's contribution stood out. The ASL, which Sekaran heads, designed and developed the Agni-V, built the powerful propulsion systems for its three stages, developed the light-weight rocket-motor casings made of composites and the heat shield too. Chander praised Sekaran's role in designing and developing the heat shield.



While Agni-III missiles ejected the re-entry vehicle at a velocity of 4.2 km a second, Agni-V ejected it at a velocity of 6 km a second. “This is a new dispensation in terms of higher velocity. At the end of the day, you have to survive the re-entry and then only you can deliver. The particular heat shield we made for Agni-V is the strength of the ASL,” the ASL Director said.



As the re-entry vehicle comes down through the atmosphere from an altitude of 100 km to a lower altitude, the atmosphere's density keeps increasing. Once the density increases, the re-entry vehicle's deceleration breaks and the heat generated keeps shooting up. It is akin to speeding in a car when brakes are suddenly applied and people seated in the car lurch forward. “In this case, the systems are qualified for 100 G. The survivability of the re-entry vehicle is a critical area,” Sekaran said. (The re-entry phase lasts 40 seconds to 50 seconds.) {Hmmz 220 seconds of powered flight to third stage separation, re-entry time of 40 to 50 seconds. 24 minutes total flight time ? Am I missing something here?}



In a civilian mission – for instance a mission of the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) – the heat shield protects the satellite from intense heat and friction during the rocket's ascent phase into the atmosphere and later splits down its seams and falls away. The role of a heat-shield protecting the re-entry vehicle of a missile is different. And, the satellite goes into empty space. But in a military mission, as the re-entry vehicle enters the atmosphere, the heat shield not only protects the re-entry vehicle but goes down with it. “The heat shield does not jettison at all,” a DRDO engineer said.



Although the ASL had made heat shields for previous Agni missions including that of Agni-III, the shape, size, diameter and angle of the heat shield for Agni-V was different. The heat shield's diameter in Agni-V was 1.5 metres, while it was 1.2 metres for Agni-III.



Another strength of the ASL lay in designing and developing motors propelled by solid fuel for Agni missions. For the Agni-V test flight also, the ASL designed and developed solid motors for its three stages. Besides, it developed the all-important light-weight composite for the second- and third-stage motors, which led to a reduction in their weight but far better performance. A crucial step towards developing Agni-V was taken when the ASL developed in 2007 a large rocket motor casing made entirely of carbon-filament wound composite. This casing, developed indigenously, formed the third upper stage of Agni-V. The casing went through full qualification trials in 2007.



“We never went out. The static testing of the motors was done in the same organisation [in various units of the ASL]. This is a formidable combination,” said Sekaran. The ASL also established its expertise in high-performance composites. It developed the composites for the missile motor casings and nose cone and established the process parameters for them. Then the technology was transferred to the industry for fabricating these composites. “The nose cone was fully made out of carbon composites developed by the ASL. It withstood a temperature of more than 5,0000C. You cannot make it out of metal. If you do so, the weight will shoot up,” he added. {Indigenous carbon-filament wound composite.}



Systems engineering is also one of the strengths of the ASL because it specialises in building up from what it already has. With the addition of a third upper stage and with minor modifications, the two-stage Agni-III metamorphosed into an awesome Agni-V. Yet the weight remained the same for both vehicles despite the addition of a third upper stage to Agni-V because the second- and third-stage motor casings were made out of light-weight composites. A lighter missile can be easily transported by rail or on road. Besides, it can carry a payload over a longer range.



In an interview to Frontline in May 2008, Chander pointed to the DRDO developing a large rocket motor casing made entirely of carbon-filament wound fibre and said, “This is a major breakthrough because it provides us the key technology for going into longer missions with light-weight missiles.... We have flight-tested Agni-III twice successfully. When we want to go in for missiles with higher ranges, one key technology is the rocket motor casing. That has been developed now” ( Frontline, June 06, 2008).



The RCI developed the navigation system for Agni-V, and its architect was the young G. Satheesh Reddy, Associate Director, RCI. “Our navigation for Agni-V was different from the one used for Agni-IV. It was a redundant, reliable system with high-performance and accuracy,” he said. Agni-V had two navigation systems: ring-laser gyro-based system and a micro-navigation system with good accuracy. Fault-tolerant features were incorporated into the navigation system and on-board computers. “Our on-board computers have been developed in such a way that they can recover transient failures. Besides, the entire data computation in avionics is highly reliable and robust,” he said. {In case of blackouts during re-entry the system will recover. Even the space shuttle has crucial communications blackout. Does this mean all ICBMS go through a navigational blackout during re-entry?}



The important technology of the inertial navigation system, guidance and control used in Agni-V was the brainchild of the RCI, said S.K. Chaudhury, its Director. All the systems were validated by advanced simulation at the RCI. The DRDL's role in the mission was to characterise the vehicle.



The DRDO's attention is now focussed on the next Agni-V launch from a canister and a road-mobile launcher in early 2013. The Shourya and the BrahMos missiles were launched many times from a canister. Chander said the DRDO had set up a facility at Shamirpet, near Hyderabad, for missile ejection tests using a gas-generator from a canister. The road-mobile launcher would be ready in May. With Agni-V scheduled to be inducted into the Army by 2015, there would be six flight tests, including three pre-induction trials.

[Arun_S]

The IUCNA left India compromised on nuclear warhead required for cost effective nuclear deterrence. The increased cost burden of fielding nuclear detterence on Indian Military Budget is huge, because the lack of credible high yield warhead now requires building and maintaining many times bigger missile delivery force, and much greater fissile material processing and many times more warhead qty.



The large diameter Agni missiles now need to be redied with much greater throw weight (compromising range), and Small Indian deterrence now also make necessary Indian ABM missile shield (which itself is contineously a moving technological target). Accuracy of Agni warhead delivery not withstanding.



Arihant class subs for now is a useless platform, because the warhead that can reside in close proximilty of human crews, are non-existant, given the failure of TN on Pok-2 and absence of alternative design that could have been tested on Pok-2 but thanks to Chidumbrum were not tested per his test validation plan.



Need for nuclear triade (a.k.a Arihant platform) requires Indian to test again, and bridge the chasm of credible warheads required for credible deterrence.

[osman]

[quote name='Arun_S' date='04 May 2012 - 02:28 AM' timestamp='1336078238' post='114793']

The IUCNA left India compromised on nuclear warhead required for cost effective nuclear deterrence. The increased cost burden of fielding nuclear detterence on Indian Military Budget is huge, because the lack of credible high yield warhead now requires building and maintaining many times bigger missile delivery force, and much greater fissile material processing and many times more warhead qty.



The large diameter Agni missiles now need to be redied with much greater throw weight (compromising range), and Small Indian deterrence now also make necessary Indian ABM missile shield (which itself is contineously a moving technological target). Accuracy of Agni warhead delivery not withstanding.



Arihant class subs for now is a useless platform, because the warhead that can reside in close proximilty of human crews, are non-existant, given the failure of TN on Pok-2 and absence of alternative design that could have been tested on Pok-2 but thanks to Chidumbrum were not tested per his test validation plan.



Need for nuclear triade (a.k.a Arihant platform) requires Indian to test again, and bridge the chasm of credible warheads required for credible deterrence.

[/quote]



I am not sure the government is in a mood to test. The santanam affair was quietly hushed. DAE has clearly been sidelined on the ENR issue with our domestic ENR being highlighted. Homi baba's three stage plan has been given a quiet burial. There is a move towards a large import reactor segment without ENR import which is akin to us having a US Saudi Arabia relationship with US, France, Russia and the entire NSG block subject to a nuclear blockade. A test now will show the real positions of the rest of the world towards India.

[Arun_S]

Good article by TSS.





Some observations:



[quote name='osman' date='04 May 2012 - 02:14 AM' timestamp='1336077386' post='114792']

[url="http://www.frontline.in/stories/20120518290912400.htm"]http://www.frontline...18290912400.htm[/url]



Frontline on Agni V. A lot of details. Did not post the entire article. Just technical details.



At 8-07 a.m., as the Agni-V shot out smoothly from its launch pad, roared into the sky and built up a powerful thrust, there was no doubt about the mission's success. The three stages ignited on time and their separation was clean and precise. The missile climbed to a height of about 600 km before starting to descend. The powered flight, with the three stages igniting and separating, lasted about 220 seconds. As each stage fired and decoupled, the MCC and the adjacent hall reverberated with applause. There was a long gap between the third stage separation and the re-entry vehicle knifing into the atmosphere at an altitude of 100 km.After the third stage separated and the re-entry vehicle was ejected at a velocity of about six km a second, the mood in the MCC was relaxed. [/quote]



The "velocity of about six km a second" does not mean the reentry velocity was 6 km/sec. The re-entry velocity was still 7 Km/sec (Mach 24). Just that when the third stage bunt off teh velocity was between 6 and 7 km/sec. In fact ROCKSIM shows the velocity at apogee was about 6.1 km/sec, on the way down gravity imparts another 1 km/sec velocity to make it 6.85 km/sec Mach 25, speed of sound at that altitude is 270m/sec

Thirdly, the composite motors of the size used in Agni-V has given the DRDO the confidence to go for missiles with larger motors and manoeuvring warheads because the motor casings, made out of composites, will be light in weight but provide a higher performance.

It was indeed manuvering warhead.

Although the DRDO's missile complex in Hyderabad comprising the DRDL, the ASL and the Research Centre, Imarat (RCI) played important roles in developing the components, systems and subsystems for Agni-V, the ASL's contribution stood out. The ASL, which Sekaran heads, designed and developed the Agni-V, built the powerful propulsion systems for its three stages, developed the light-weight rocket-motor casings made of composites and the heat shield too. Chander praised Sekaran's role in designing and developing the heat shield.

PTI/DRDO is on record durign initial Agni-III flights that the booster was composite. They reported those days that second stage was margaing steel (which has similar performance liek composite case in terms of mass fraction {read lighter and stronger}) that did not make sense then as well as today. IMHO the second stage was always compsoite (in A3 as well as now A5). All that was added now was the upper stage motor was composite carbon (compared to earlier reported compsoite that did not mention carmon, ostensibly meaning composite based on fiber that was other than carbon fiber. E.g. kevlar etc).



It all fits with in teh A3 mass of 48 tonne and now A5 mass of 50 tonne. the 2 tonne difference is mainly for added 3'rd stage.

Although the ASL had made heat shields for previous Agni missions including that of Agni-III, the shape, size, diameter and angle of the heat shield for Agni-V was different. The heat shield's diameter in Agni-V was 1.5 metres, while it was 1.2 metres for Agni-III.

This is good data.

Another strength of the ASL lay in designing and developing motors propelled by solid fuel for Agni missions. For the Agni-V test flight also, the ASL designed and developed solid motors for its three stages. Besides, it developed the all-important light-weight composite for the second- and third-stage motors, which led to a reduction in their weight but far better performance. A crucial step towards developing Agni-V was taken when the ASL developed in 2007 a large rocket motor casing made entirely of carbon-filament wound composite. This casing, developed indigenously, formed the third upper stage of Agni-V. The casing went through full qualification trials in 2007.

See my earlier comment.

Systems engineering is also one of the strengths of the ASL because it specialises in building up from what it already has. With the addition of a third upper stage and with minor modifications, the two-stage Agni-III metamorphosed into an awesome Agni-V. Yet the weight remained the same for both vehicles despite the addition of a third upper stage to Agni-V because the second- and third-stage motor casings were made out of light-weight composites. A lighter missile can be easily transported by rail or on road. Besides, it can carry a payload over a longer range.

Could mean that A3 second stage was composite, now it is even lighter carbon composite.

The RCI developed the navigation system for Agni-V, and its architect was the young G. Satheesh Reddy, Associate Director, RCI. “Our navigation for Agni-V was different from the one used for Agni-IV. It was a redundant, reliable system with high-performance and accuracy,” he said. Agni-V had two navigation systems: ring-laser gyro-based system and a micro-navigation system with good accuracy. Fault-tolerant features were incorporated into the navigation system and on-board computers. “Our on-board computers have been developed in such a way that they can recover transient failures. Besides, the entire data computation in avionics is highly reliable and robust,” he said.

Reminds me of someone couple of decades ago who had proposed /developed a distributed reduendent avionics framework (including INS) for high mission robustness albiet without panelty of dual redundency, where a backup system takes over albiet at reduced precision, for rocketery application. Quite gratifying.

[sayareakd]

Arun sir can you comment on this pic





Shot at 2012-05-03



thanks

[gangajal1]

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/not-a-...g/940106/0



This statement in Indian Express by Admiral Arun Prakash,

'Since boosted-fission nuclear warheads are India’s preferred choice, their limited yield of 200-300 kilo tonnes demands much higher navigational accuracies so that detonation takes place close enough to the intended target to inflict “unacceptable” damage.' very much gives us the answer to the questions raised about the TN test.



Probably the 30 meter CEP of A5 at 5000 km would suffice.

[osman]

[quote name='gangajal1' date='04 May 2012 - 09:54 PM' timestamp='1336148190' post='114799']

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/not-a-...g/940106/0



This statement in Indian Express by Admiral Arun Prakash,

'Since boosted-fission nuclear warheads are India’s preferred choice, their limited yield of 200-300 kilo tonnes demands much higher navigational accuracies so that detonation takes place close enough to the intended target to inflict “unacceptable” damage.' very much gives us the answer to the questions raised about the TN test.



Probably the 30 meter CEP of A5 at 5000 km would suffice.

[/quote]



Well the entire Agni series as Ramana has pointed out earlier is 1000kg payload. Only shourya has a payload of 700kg. Arun has raised other points on our triad and cost of arsenal. MIRV requires the TN warhead. We need a Pokhran III to emerge as a "full" nuclear power again. Hope it's before we are shackled with the imported reactors. Fast breeders could hold the key to our cost effective arsenal without Pokhran III if we can overcome the radiation hazards of such a weapon.

[osman]

India's weapon of choice. Boosted fission: 200 to 300KT.



Well I have a different take on this. Please correct me if I am wrong. This boosted fission device uses reactor grade plutonium. India had 9 tonnes of plutonium of which 2 tonnes was used in fuel fabrication for the the Fast Breeder reactor. 4 tonnes of reactor grade fuel gives India 1000 weapons if it chooses to deploy them. So our weapon of choice for now is a weapon which is available and which does not add pressure on the nuclear submarine fuel production line until our chitradurga enrichment program comes online. This assumption is based on the Vasundra Raje reply in 2001. India will have subkiloton, fission, boosted-fission and thermonuclear warheads.



Assuming this position has not changed, we could still see MIRVs with 400 to 450kg Dr Saraswat has talked about. Just not in the numbers we want until our Chitradurga facility comes online. The Chitradurga facility isn't under safeguards. Our ENR will need more time.



There is as always the possibility of using our Fast breeder for warheads. Radiation can be dealt with according to some papers I read. How far we go down this path is not known. One sub kiloton device was a fast breeder output bomb.