Unmasking AIT

[Husky]

None of these posts on this page will make any sense without having read the sequence of serial spam on the previous page.



Post 2/?



Native Australian (Australian Aboriginal) - and Indra vs Vritra

blackdrago.com/fame/rainbowserpent.htm

Yurlungur / Great Father

Yurlungur is similar to Warramunga. He was also a symbol of changing a boy to a man and of fertility. Many believe that the "evil maiden-eating" dragon theme was derived from him. After all, he swallowed to girls that wandered into his cave. Thunder was said to sound when his voice spoke. It was also said that he caused the great flood. He spit into the sky and caused great rain to fall. (Wawalik sisters were said to play a role in this as well.) [1]

Thunder is often associated with drought/dry spells and giant dark rain-carrying clouds that result in subsquent thunderstorms* with torrential rains and floods. * Especially when large fronts (of warm air clashing with cool air of extreme gradient differential) meet at high mountains.



Vritra is supposed to be a monster - described as sky serpent on western sites - that blocked the light from the sky, drank up all the waters and huddled on mountains, hogging it, which caused drought everywhere. Bhagavaan dambhoLi-paaNi then fought it with his thunder and lighting and subdued it, thereby releasing the rains again.



Perhaps one way to understand it is that the sky serpent itself is the giant dark rain-bearing clouds as these had soaked up all the atmospheric water. In the (sub)tropics at least, (often after a dry spell) eventually a front forms that, as it clashes with a cold front especially as happens at the walls of high mountains, it often precipitates inevitably in a thunderstorm - a complete electrical storm - resulting in torrential rains. As happens for instance in S American massive mountain ranges. I have to admit I'm worse than terrible at geography/meteorological science, so instead, refer to the brilliant episode "Atmosphere" of IIRC the BBC documentary "Earth: the Power of the Planet", the section on electrical and thunderstorms on one side of the ...Andes (?) I think it was.

This explanation seems to be what the Iroquois tradition of Serpent vs Thunder God - pasted somewhere above - seems on surface to allude to (I could be wrong).



So the sky becomes dark, Mahendran battles Vritra intensely - there's lighting and loud thunder to show for the signs of this intense battle - and eventually Bhagavaan Indra released the rains from the water-hogging sky serpent. Jai.



(Of course, Indran is literally true and real, and so Indra vs Vritra would be essentially real at some level - this being the heathen position.) I'm just trying to reason why this sort of thing tends to often be seen throughout the world: why water-hogging and thunder and great rain/storms logically often go together in narratives about Gods, as do the other water-related cases of local rivers and seas flooding. These things are especially seen when serpents - including sky serpents - (who are sometimes the Gods themselves*, and at other times/elsewhere subdued by the Gods) are thought to have weather-control and/or flood-control** to some extent, and/or are associated with waters and the sky. [E Asian Longs live in waters - and control it - and can fly through the sky too, like sky serpents, controlling the rains to snow and hail.]



Repeating also the Iroquois Native American narrative, as it seems relevant:

archive.org/stream/serpentworshipin211hamb/serpentworshipin211hamb_djvu.txt

In the Iroquoian myth the monster is a horned serpent which swallowed the thunder boy, who was eventually rescued by Thunder and his warriors.

The serpent here is not directly stated to have gobbled up all the water, but it did swallow the "thunder boy" [product of thunder?/what usually follows or relates logically whenever thunder is heard? i.e. rain] whom Thunder et al then released from the serpent's grasp. It sounds like a sky serpent, if only because Thunder tends to be detected in the sky somewhere.





*Yurlungur the Australian Great Father Serpent in himself produces both the thunder and great rains and floods. His speaking voice being the thunder seems to fit with how thunder is associated with what often accompanies it: (thunder)storms, rains, floods.

Rainbow Serpents being associated with rainbows, weather and the waters of earth could again be because rainbows naturally appear when the sun appears after rain(storm). And Indran is not just the God of Rain and doesn't just wield the dambholi, but his indraayudha generates rainbows.



** Unlike Yurlungur the Great Father, who seems to have weather and water control on a large scale in native Australian cosmology, some Giant magical snakes are only local, being Rivers. And hence may not be described/known to control the rains so much, certainly not all over/not outside their reigions. But rivers can flood - which is considered to be a matter in the presiding Dragon/Serpent's purview. Orochi is considered to be a Giant Snake of this last kind I think and related to the Hii river. Other Giant Snakes seem to have control over the flooding of the lake in which they live. The River Long battled by Erlang Shen presided both over the local River and the regional rain: this is common about Longs presiding over waters. Thats why the River Long is described as raining on the region when landing at his temple base, as well as his causing his river to flood when he didn't get his sacrifices. Daoist Longs of water realm control water (flood) and weather (torrential rains) in the entire region that they preside over (e.g. in the case of Dragon Kings, the entire sea for which they are the appointed Dragon King.)

[Husky]

Post 3/ - Trishiras vs Orochi - part 1



Don't know much about Indra vs Trishiras-Vishvaroopa, son of tvaShTaa either. And can't find out from the MW dictionary that he is a serpent/dragon or any kind of "monster" as wacky's Orochi page said Trishiras was. That he's got 3 heads is apparent (which does not imply he's a "monster", e.g. Dattatreya etc have 3 heads). Even checked the Wacky page and it doesn't have him as a dragon or serpent, it just says he used one head for eating, one for observing the world/watching, and one for reciting the Vedam. (To pre-emptively deny any encroachment: he does not in any way represent oppressed dravoodianism/ur-Shramanisms, since he's a Vedic being, of the Vedic cosmos onlee.) But I suppose since vRitra is the younger brother of [color="#0000FF"](EDIT stupid typo: not TvaShTaa but)[/color] Trishiras, perhaps he [Trishiras] looked the same [serpent-like]?



Ah, it seems the wife of TvaShTa and mother of Trishiras was an asurI. Since Rahu/Ketu sprung from an asurI too and look serpentine, and since Diti's babies looked serpentine, maybe that implies Trishiras looked serpentine after all?



ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/sep98/0069.html

As far as this non-swara business of Veda-adhyayana goes:

No!! Patanjali's statement is proof of this

alpaksharaha swaratho varNatho vaa mithyaaprayukto nathamarthamaahaha sa vaak vajro yajamaanam hinasti yathendra shatru swarathOparaadhaat.



The Veda gives the illustration of this - it is also in the PuraaNa and Patanjali states this.

Twaashtha wanted a Son to avenge the death of Trishira - his Son whom Indra adopted as a preceptor in the time Brihaspathi had left him due to the disrespect Indra had shown toward his Acharya. Indra found that Trishira had an Asura Mother and when he offered oblations into the Sacred Agni for the victory of the Devas, he also uttered the mantras for the victory of the Asuras with his other mouth ( he had 3 ) - consequently the wars were stalemated. Indra in his anger killed Trishira with his Vajram and incurred Twaashtha's wrath. The mantra which Twaashtha chanted had the words "Indra shatru" in it. In this the Indra was to chanted with anudhaatam and the shatru with swaritam. Twaashtha made the mistake of chanting the word Indra with swaritam and the Shatru with anudhaatam - he consequently got a Son - Vritra - not one who would kill Indra - but one who would be killed by Indra. The meaning changed due to the incorrect swara and hence the term "Yajamaanam hinasti".



There are many out there who claim that we can have our will with the Veda. With due respect these are people who have done no adhyayanam in a paathashaala or those who have had no formal teaching of the Veda from one who has learned it from someone educated in a paathashaala. These are in my view the paathakaadhamaas. I will not give serious credibility to this view. Sri Paramaachaarya is vehement in his stand on the correct intonation of the Veda as well as uchchaaraNam. In my life, I have seen several people who said things like this - and I have argued with them. Without Swara the Veda is not only meaningless - worse it has vipariita artham (contrary meaning). It is tantamount to chanting everything in one tone - swara - whatever you call it. Hence, wrong. Just as you cannot live without working, you cannot speak without intonation of any kind. Whatever you say - however you say it, by default has a swara - so there cannot be any non-swara chanting of anything - leave alone the Veda - there can only be apaswara chanting.

About that last para:

Wish Hindoos would be equally vigorously adamant in preventing aliens - who are worse than asuras ever were - from terrorising the Vedas. Oh, and wish that Hindus would suitably deal with all traitors who teach=sell the Vedas to aliens. Don't know why apaswaram is still [rightly] regarded a crime in our time but not teaching the - as the Chinese used to call the west - "foreign devils". (I am certain half - if not all - the problems Hindus suffer is in sinister consequence from having enabled aliens access to the Vedam (and other Hindu mantra and ritual texts and other Hindu stuffs). Yes, aliens stole these things half the time and so weren't always gifted it on a platter, but then why oh why did Hindus ever write it down. Could have known it would fall into the wrong hands some day. Ugh.)



[Side note: The Chinese have a tonal language - 4 tones (it's more vocal inflections than swara-tones, btw; I hear the Vietnamese have 6 tones). The meaning can drastically change if you get the "tone" for a word wrong (the word maa IIRC has 4 meanings, one of which is mother and another is horse? "My horse told me to do my homework...") Some Chinese people don't want aliens pronouncing their names at all, because their experience is that all aliens do is mispronounce their names (as these names often don't have an inflection that western people naturally make for the word, despite the word looking deceptively easy to pronounce on paper) and thereby turn a name with a sacred and/or beautiful meaning into something with an evil or profane meaning: I remember one person - understandably - got *really* angry about this and insisted that people only use his assumed western name and never, never dare call him by his private Chinese name ever again.]



And here's something relevant to my own speculations involving Indra vs Vritra as an example of the more general case of giant serpents and weather/water control seen in various forms all over the world:



advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2002-October/003944.html

The stories in the shastras can be interpreted on many levels one (but by no means the only) is a natural one. I think a more plausible theory than the Ice age one is this is a depiction of the monsoon. Every year in India the terrible heat of summer parches the land. People wait in hope for the storms of monsoon which are not without danger and violence themselves but when they pass the earth is once again fertile. Vrtra symbolises drought. Note the frequent mentions of him "drinking up" the waters and hiding the within himself. Indra is Parjanya, the rain-bringer. His weapon is thunder. He is accompanied by the Maruts or storm-winds. Like the monsoon, His behavior is somewhat erratic but ultimately beneficial to mankind. This is not a one-time event but a yearly one. (Indra has altogether slain 100 Vrtras. 100 is the ideal lifespan.) Every year Vrtra hides the waters and Indra slays him releasing them again. According to the learned author of my Gujarati translation of the Bhagavata, Shayanacharya also mentions this explanation which is a big point in its favor in my opinion.

The above does sound more like what I theorised in general about weather controlling Longs/serpents than the "melting Ice motif" which I see is what aliens favour for Vritra (perhaps because it allowed arguing some arctic homeland/urheimat).



- In tropical cases the problem could more often be drought; and monsoon seems to cover much of India.



- In China and Japan etc the more frequent problems seem less to be drought than it is flooding from *local* rivers (or even surrounding seas in the case of Nezha), which could explain the local phenomena of River Serpents or Dragons needing restraining or subduing by Chinese and Japanese Gods. And the post (#441) on the Japanese Orochi somewhere above already contained quoteblocks explaining that the "anatomy" of the Orochi fit the earthly Japanese river system that became the Hii river (a.o.t. an atmospheric and wide-reaching storm as in Indra vs Vritra case). Why people should insinuate PIE into Susanowo vs Orochi is beyond me, especially when this too is seen elsewhere.



[Although it should also be noted they only chose to insinuate Indra vs Trishiras, not Vritra. All because of the number of heads and sake. Haven't yet come across anything like a water/drought threat about Trishiras. Beyond Trishiras having 3 heads - which is still not the same as Orochi's 8 heads and 8 tails - and the luring of the Orochi's 8 heads to the 8 different gates by means of sake to capture each head while intoxicating it and then slaying it individually - which gets compared to Indra using soma/wine/food on Trishiras (although, luring giant [magical] snakes with food or anything is seen elsewhere) - beyond these 2 superficial points, I don't see much similarity between Susanowo vs Orochi and Indra vs Trishiras. And those are the only two points they provided to insinuate PIE "must have" influenced Orochi.]



- What about the fact that Orochi does not *come across* as learned, or even very bright. No one seems to talk to it; perhaps it can't speak. In any case, it is simply *lured* to the sake, that's all we know. Meanwhile, Trishiras is very learned, even a "preceptor" of the Devas for a time.



- Orochi's literal crime is eating up 7 of the Earthly Kamis' 8 daughters and wanting to eat up the last. Trishiras' (literal) crime is treachery despite having taken on the responsibility as devamantrI: he performed the yagnya requesting victory for the asuras also, thereby keeping the Devas stuck fighting the Asuras.

Again, important and relevant difference.



(The biggest difference between the two in next post)

[Husky]

Post 4/ - Trishiras vs Orochi - part 2



- The greatest difference concerns Orochi's body being like the local Japanese environment of the region, including the hills, valleys and plants/trees there. Repeating the translation of the Nihongi found on wacky:

"[Orochi] had an eight-forked head and an eight-forked tail; its eyes were red, like the winter-cherry; and on its back firs and cypresses were growing. As it crawled it extended over a space of eight hills and eight valleys." These botanical names used to describe this Orochi are akahagachi or hoozuki ("winter cherry or Japanese lantern, Physalis alkekengi"), hikage ("club moss, Lycopodiopsida), hinoki ("Japanese cypress, Chamaecyparis obtusa), and sugi ("Japanese cedar, Cryptomeria").

[Watery Serpents and other sea creatures bearing entire regions or islands or lands is a common occurrence in the narratives of different religio-cultures, btw.]



So Orochi - whose name's Japanese etymology wacky said was a "God/spirit" with <presumably something about its> "tail" - is, if anything, the embodiment of the local Hii River and surrounding region (the region within flooding distance of the river?). The 8 tails and 8 heads point to that riverine geography. Trishiras three heads don't really compare therefore: the multi-headedness of the two is of a very different nature, not just number.



Susanowo, in lopping off the multiple heads of Orochi (the hills?) and cutting its tails (valleys? or its riverlets) and the rest of its body into pieces, may have tamed the region - perhaps thereby re-adjusting the geography a bit - tamed it sufficiently, [color="#0000FF"]for the purpose of better rice cultivation[/color] (and having as consequence, better rice wine/sake generation).



* A couple of reasons for this interpretation (am not denying the reality of Susano'o-Sama and his Wife and Family):



The fact that he lopped the heads (tributaries, hills etc?) and tails (valleys, river ends, etc?) and cut the body in pieces (re-organising it) and the fact that his wife is called Rice-Field princess and the fact that they became fruitful (had babies thereafter - more rice fields?) seems to imply: he adjusted river flow in the valley (or tamed or even evened out the area better) for rice cultivation.



[Cutting the entire body of the Orochi into pieces including luring the 8 heads to the 8 gates <-> maybe this refers to diverting/re-distributing the river so that it supplied water to a number of rice fields? At the end of each gate the Orochi head that had been lured there found rice-wine <-> maybe this means diverting each of the 8 main river outlets to a functioning/viable rice field?]



In other famous Japanese religio-narratives too: e.g. in one ancient Japanese narrative [as relayed in the excellent very heathen children's film Tatsu-no-ko-Taro], a heroic boy - blessed by Kami Tengu-Sama with divine sake giving him the strength of 100 men - together with his dragon mother break a large boulder to release the water of the dragon's lake to flood a valley(s) below so that these can become viable rice-fields. That entire narrative was very *explicitly* about the need for rice cultivation to save the people in the surrounding area from being constantly underfed and miserable. To achieve this, it was necessary to get the water that was lodged in the mountainous lake/river to flow down to the valleys below. This - the need for the proper geography for rice cultivation - may be a common point between the two narratives (of Orochi and the one in Tatsunoko Taro).



In that case, not just one but *both* narratives involved re-adjusting the landscape for rice cultivation. Susano-wo being *Heavenly* Kami of Summer Storms and a Watery God first re-adjusting the landscape for better rice cultivation and then teaming up with his Wife the Rice Field Princess who was an *Earthly* kami, could be the happy union of ideal weather for rice cultivation on earth in that area of Japan. Especially since it says that Susano-wo Sama decided to *settle* in this region - which he found pleasant - with his Wife and decided to have his sacred family there: he made these improved conditions for rice cultivation permanent. He made the land of the region fruitful by joining with the Princess of Rice Fields, his wife - having tamed the existing geography (Orochi) which had been perhaps more hostile to rice cultivation. The fact that Rice Field Princess' life was threatened could then have the additional meaning that Rice cultivation in the rice fields there was itself threatend in that area by the then unyielding geography. This explanation fits the points *very* well while still not doing anything in the least to negate how Susano-wo Kamisama really did settle there with his Wife and had Children: in Japan everything has Gods (or at least a spirit) presiding over them or residing in them. And the region brews lots of sake, which surely means it must have (had) lots of rice fields since Susanowo overcame Orochi and made it his dwelling.



[Note, Japanese Kamis are described as shaping the islands of Japan and shaping life there. So this scene of Susanowo's earthly sojourn in helping Japanese rice farming fits in that larger ancient Shinto view of the Kami shaping all Japanese cosmology and particularly Japan, its nature and taking an active part in the life of earthly creatures. Sake and poetry and sumo weren't the only things that the Kamis taught the Japanese.

The little I've read on Korean native religion's Gods also describes the Korean Gods as shaping their natural world - down to even the stepping stones of land bridges (a la some giants of Wales were associated with arranging giant stones in Wales. <- Pre-emptively: No, PIE didn't "inspire" the Koreans in this either. All over the world heathens have recognised in nature the signs of the Gods shaping geography.)]



Susanowo was supposed to have been banished from the heavens to earth. But Goddess Amaterasu is his sister, and she is the ancestor of all Japanese (also literally), being the Sun. "Banished" implies enforced exile. Essentially, this could simply read that the Gods of Shinto heavenly realm sent Susano-wo to earth to reside permanently there, where he may use his powers to the benefit of the Japanese people (Amaterasu's descendants). He found a place where he was most needed and made it his home. His romantic poetry concerning His Wife as well as the region He chose to make His Earthly Abode speaks of how he wishes to protect these and the children they have here. "High walls from massively rising clouds" to protect all this, said the translation of his poem. Then with his permanent residence/enshrinement in Yaegaki, he has not only made the land fruitful - for the population to have nourishment - but also promises fruitfulness to the population, by promoting marriage unions among the Japanese and blessing them with subsequent babies (he provided "child-bearing safety" too as per the posted translation of his poem). [Gods who promote agricultural success often promote reproductive success.] It was therefore a great day when the heavenly Kamis sent him to permanently reside on Earth. To demonstrate that there was no real ill-will between him and his Sister/Heaven, he gifted the sacred divine sword he found in the Orochi's tail back to Amaterasu (whence it came down to Japanese rulers).



[Vritra is ultimately not a better comparison to Orochi either: since the battle was for the need of rain from drought, not to suppress flood from a local river - even though even "flood" is not mentioned in the summaries about Susanowo - nor to make the geography more compliant for better rice cultivation. Erlang Shen's case is about floods and taming the river geography/irrigation and closer to Susanowo in that respect.]



Meanwhile, with such an additional view on Susanowo vs Orochi, Trishiras' case is even further from bearing any resemblance to Orochi's. Kami Susanowo shows his (and his Wife's) benevolence in helping Japanese people in farming rice and have generated not just the necessities to nourish them with (rice) but generate the joy that results from this (sake, another divine gift of the Kami, which deepens the communion between the Japanese heathens and their Gods).

Together, the God and his wife are life-sustaining and life-promoting Gods of the Japanese countryside, giving the Japanese all they wanted: fruitful land, happy unions and progeny, and sake.



So regardless of PIE-ists' views on whether Indra vs Vritra concerns the case of melting ice on (artic? central asian?) mountains or whatever, that and the Trishiras narratives have no bearing on Susanowo. Generally too, in the E Asian case the Longs - and the dragons/serpents of many other indigenous peoples of E-Asia, Africa, Americas and Oceania - tend to be indigenously related back to rain, storms, floods, drought and often found in earthly waters.

So PIE-ists can leave all of them happily out of PIE speculations, especially since many are older populations with usually older and even independent traditions regarding magical, giant, weather-influencing, water-related serpent-like beings. More examples about such "magical" weather and/or land-water controlling dragons and giant serpents - in Oceania and Americas - will follow after the next post. The following one is about the case that PIE-ism refers to for the PIE "chaoskampf" trope among Hittites.

[Husky]

Post 5/ Hittites vs Japanese Orochi (AKA: Can I make it fit if I try really hard?)



Going to play devil's advocate for a short space. Not really. But want to show that another famous instance still doesn't fit Susano-o vs Orochi's case (not any more than it can fit other non-IE's cases or they can fit each other), even after I've pushed the similarity as far as it can (probably) go, even by means of Cheating (i.e. *really* wild speculation. Not as wild as the PIE-ists, but they don't usually even bother to look into anything non-"IE" in much detail anyway - except if they're planning major encroachment on a non-IE civilisation).



Here's the case that PIE-ism refers to for the PIE "chaoskampf" trope among Hittites. Hopefully no one will insinuate that if not Indra/Vedic religion then the IE Hittites "must" have influenced the Japanese Susanowo vs Orochi.





[color="#0000FF"]hittites.info/translations.aspx?text=translations/mythology%2FIlluyanka.html[/color]



Appears to be direct translation of primary text. Uh, it seems to give 2 very different versions of the Hittite Storm God vs (one-headed) Serpent. (Note the ellipses in square brackets in the following are not mine, they appear to indicate missing source text)

The Storm God and the Serpent

Beckman, Gary, "The Anatolian Myth of Illuyanka", JANES 14 (1982)



TRANSLATION

§1 Thusly Mr. Killa, the Anointed Priest of the Storm God of Nerik, (concerning) the matter of the purulli-festival [of] the Storm God of Heaven, when they speak thusly -

§2 "May the land grow and thrive! May the land be protected!" When it grows and thrives, they perform the festival of the purulli.

§3 When the Storm God and the serpent fought each other in the city of Kiškilušša, the serpent vanquished the Storm God.

§4 So the Storm God implored all of the gods, "Come together!" And Inara prepared a feast.

§5 She prepared everything in great quantity: a large vessel of wine, a large vessel of marnuwanda-beer, a large vessel of walḫi-beverage. In the vessels she made abundance.

§6 Inara went to the city of Ziggaratta, and she found Mr. Ḫupašiya, a mortal.

§7 Thusly Inara to Ḫupašiya, "I am about to do such-and-such a thing! You, join with me!"

§8 Thusly Ḫupašiya to Inara, "If I may sleep with you, then I will come (and) I will do that of your heart." So he slept with her.

§9 Inara led Ḫupašiya away and she concealed him. Inara dressed herself up, and she invited the serpent up from its lair (lit. "hole") (saying), "I am about to make a feast! Come eat and drink!"

§10 So the serpent came up along with his sons and they ate and drank. They drank every vessel and they made themselves drunk.

§11 They did not want to go down into the lair again. Ḫupašiya came and tied up the serpent with rope.

§12 The Storm God came and killed the serpent. The gods were with him.

§13 Inara built a house on a rock for herself in the land Tarukka. She set Ḫupašiya in the house. Inara repeatedly commanded him, "When I go into the countryside, you must not look out from the window! If you look out, you will see your wife and your children!"

§14 When 20 days passed, he looked out from the window, and he saw his wife and his children.

§15 When Inara came back from the countryside, he began to weep, "Let me back home!"

§16 Thusly Inara to Ḫupašiya, "Why did you look out? [. . .]" [. . .]

12 by means of a crime [. . .]

13 Of? the Storm God [. . .] the meadow [. . .]

14 he [. . .] and him [. . .]

§17 Inara [went?] to the city Kiškilušša. When she put [. .] her? house and the underground spring? [into] the hand of the king [. . .] Because (of this) we are celebrating the first purulli-festival. The hand [of the king will hold? the house?] of Inara and the underground spring?.

§18 Mt. Zaliyanu is first of all (the gods). When he assigned rain in Nerik, the staff-bearer brings the thick bread from Nerik.

§19 He asked Mt. Zaliyanu for rain, and he brings it to him [on account of] the bread.

27 And he [. . .]

28 And it to him [. . .] he [. . .]

29 And he/them [. . .]

30 [. . .]

The next line seems to start again from the beginning but recounts the battle differently:

(Gap)



§20' This [. . .]

§21' What Kella the Anointed priest said: [First], the serpent vanquished the Storm God, and he took [(his) heart and (his) eyes]. And [the Storm God feared?] him.

§22' He took the daughter of a poor man for his wife, and he begat a son. When he grew up, he took for himself the daughter of the serpent in matrimony.

§23' The Storm God repeatedly instructed (his) son, "When you enter the house of your wife, request from them (my) heart and (my) eyes!"

§24' When he went, he requested the heart from them, and they gave it to him. Later, he requested the eyes from them, and those, too, they gave to him. He brought them to the Storm God, his father. The Storm God took back the heart and the eyes.

§25' When his form was again sound in its former state, he again went to the sea for battle. When he gave battle to him, he ultimately began to vanquish the serpent, and the son of the Storm God was with the serpent. He cried up to heaven, to his father:

§26' "Take me together (with them)! Do not spare me!" So the Storm God killed the serpent and his son. That Storm God is about to/just finished [. . .]

§27' Thusly Kella, the Anointed Priest of the Storm God of Nerik: When the gods [. . .]

§27a' 1 [. . .]

2 [. .] they [. . .] and for him food [. . .]

3 [. . .] back to Nerik [. . .]

4 [. . .] Let!

§27b' 5 The god Zašḫapuna (acc.)

6 [. . .] (s)he did [. . .] and the Storm God of Nerik

7 [. . .] they went. The god Zaliyanu[. . .]

8 [. . .] (s)he went back [. . .]

§27c' 9 [. . .] (s)he? gave? [. . .]

10 [. . .] to? Nerik [. . .]

11 [. . .] the serpent? [. . .]

§28' For the Anointed Priest they made the first (ranked) gods into the last, and they made the last (ranked) into the first (ranked) gods.

§29' The cult revenues of the god Zaliyanu are great. Zašḫapuna, wife of Zalinui (i.e. Zaliyanu), is greater than the Storm God

I think version #2 of the events already ended.



Version #1 is what's relevant since it's the only one that appears to have any point in commonality with Susano-wo (this being the element of intoxicating the Serpent to get the better of it).



- Am assuming the Serpent is suitably large and/or otherwise magical, else how can it have kept a God at bay for so long in battle?



- No indication of number of heads of the serpent. So far it seems to have even less in common with 8-headed Orochi of Japan than the 3-headed/Trishiras-Vishvaroopa had (multi-headedness is the sort of thing that PIE-ism went in for, so I could theoretically just restrict myself to such superficials in this discussion)



- though not multi-headed, there are many serpents in the Hittite case: the major serpent comes in with his family. No indication that all of them were killed though.

[In version #2, the enemy serpent and the Storm God's own son - married to a serpent's-daughter - both got killed, presumably because the son felt he had unwittingly betrayed his serpent father-in-law?]



- but there is the luring the serpent in with various recognisable and unrecognisably-named liquors (wine, some type of beer and other beverage). However, the Serpent - and family - gets an explicit invitation to the festivitiy (which implies a magical snake since it understands an invitation). A real invitation doesn't seem to be the case with Orochi, who just seems to be lured in on a primal urge for yummy sake, or Orochi just isn't a very intelligent creature, more like an animal, even though it would have been a formidable beast to fight. If you take Orochi's "anatomy" as embodying regional geography then it makes sense that Orochi doesn't interact on any intellectual level: there would be little point for such a digression in the narrative. It was overcome, that's all that mattered: Susanowo overcame it and brought in the right climate to make the Rice Fields productive (instead of the last Rice Field/the future of rice fields in the area being threatened).



- The Hittite Serpent is indeed restrained after getting drunk, but a human does this - specifically chosen for the purpose by Inara who turns out to be a Hittite Goddess. And the plan to lure it in belongs to her. Luring strong enemies with food and wine (even with the point of getting them drunk/incapacitated) is a very old trick. As stated before, luring snakes in with foods and milk is common.



[color="#0000FF"]Had missed this before: but in the Chinese folktale of Li Ji vs Giant Serpent (which required maiden sacrifices), the quoted summary in post 416 specifically says that the heroine lures the snake into position using rice. (As opposed to rice-wine that was used to lure the Japanese Orochi to the trap.) Again, the Chinese Giant Snake was attracted by the fragrant smell of the rice. Presumably Orochi was attracted by the fragrant smell of rice-wine. It was then that Li-Ji and her dog set about attacking the duped man-eating Chinese snake.[/color]



The rice wine/sake factor used to lure Orochi is more likely to be because of rice-wine's direct relation to the crop (rice), and also because sake is related to the Gods - one assumes they always can produce a supply for their own ends and are never without for themselves, which makes it the most straightforward choice to lure the oro-chi with (where the "chi" suffix was translated as meaning God/Spirit): the Kamis like Sake. Repeating wacky's admission: 'The most feasible native etymological proposals are Japanese o- from o 尾 "tail" (which is where Susanoo discovered the sacred sword), ō 大 "big; great", or oro 峰 "peak; summit"; and -chi meaning "god; spirit", cognate with the mizuchi river-dragon.' [Since mizuchi is a river-dragon kami, so is Orochi by all indication.]



- The human mating with Inara has no connection (i.e. no enforced "parallel/equivalent" and other such de-heathenising words).

*If* Inara were an agricultural Goddess, I could perhaps *force-read* the invitation to the human man to take part in the Gods' killing of the Serpent and his subsequent demand to mate with the Goddess along with her consent and subsequent the mating of the two itself as an agricultural reference such as man seeding and ploughing the land - which is a very common motif (also in rituals) in many religions (and not just "IE" ones). But no evidence of fruit [at least symbolically in the form of children] is shown from this union, he just appears stuck in a house she set up for him. His wanting to go back home to his real/human family and what remnants there are of the text with the missing ending sounds ominous enough. Confirmed: other sites discussing it think he may have been killed after requesting to join his family or else cursed with infertility, which means my forced-reading was wrong. [Or his sacrifice was insufficient to yield lasting crops - he was not committed? trained:] But there's just no data, this is all just extreme guesswork.



- The Serpent is restrained with a rope. In Orochi's case it was 8 gates for the 8 heads (tributaries rather than hills?) of the giant snake. The difference is important, because the choice of "gates" could imply irrigation as others have pointed out. Whereas just a rope would mean nothing in Orochi's case. It is natural to see the serpentine zig-zagging of Rivers as long snakes or as Longs/Asian Dragons. And a river branching into many exits/entrances would easily be seen as a snake with multiple heads and tails. That Orochi's body included the hills, valleys and plants of the region is clear geography. Why in the *world* would Japanese - a brilliant, creative population to this day - need alleged PIEs from the alleged Urheimat to teach them to see their own geography in meaningful ways. Japanese religion innately fosters a recognition of life, spirit and Gods in the nature around them.





Other relevant things :



- no explanation why the Hittite Serpent needed to be killed/why the Hittite Storm God didn't like him. Version #2 of the Hittite narrative says the Serpent stole the God's heart and eyes, but at the time it did so, the God and the Serpent were already fighting.



Whatever the reason, Orochi was a clear danger in the Japanese case, because he was threatening the Kami (life essence, presiding Goddess) of the last remaining (chance for the future of the) Rice Field there, who was meant to be Princess of many more rice fields, until the hostile landscape of Orochi suffocated her possibility to develop further/have a future. Every year, the number of daughters of her Kami parents had grown less (yearly heavy failure in rice crop yield?) If it weren't for Susanowo's taming of the landscape, she would have been devoured by the geography around Hii river/Orochi. Susanowo brought favourable weather conditions to marry with the land and allow it to produce plenty (rice cultivation).



- The line: '§2 "May the land grow and thrive! May the land be protected!" When it grows and thrives, they perform the festival of the purulli.'

That line is really the only point of true comparison - even though it is likely to be very independent from other continents (since the same 'pattern' is seen in many places). I'm reading it as referring to a festival ("purulli" by name) of thanksgiving (?) presumably to the Storm God for dispatching the Serpent. It is from such inference that one further infers that the Serpent may have been somehow throttling the land or preventing rains or flooding the region or whatever it is that Anatolia was suffering from back then. Can't commit myself, as I know little of the area and there's too little data.



- This next set of lines is less clear but one assumes it speaks of agricultural blessings as well:

§17 Inara [went?] to the city Kiškilušša. When she put [. .] her? house and the underground spring? [into] the hand of the king [. . .] Because (of this) we are celebrating the first purulli-festival. The hand [of the king will hold? the house?] of Inara and the underground spring?.

§18 Mt. Zaliyanu is first of all (the gods). When he assigned rain in Nerik, the staff-bearer brings the thick bread from Nerik.

§19 He asked Mt. Zaliyanu for rain, and he brings it to him [on account of] the bread.

Assuming again that Inara is an agricultural Goddess. I think the underground spring is the one that the Serpent hogged* and that the "house" is not hers but the Serpent's lair (maybe she put the keys of the house into the hands of the king :pure-speculation? Anyway, forcing it that way, you can further force-read the statement of the Goddess donating these things to the King as entrusting the now-secured welfare of the land (secured by the Storm God) to the King. Underground springs are very useful for cities/Kings: water supply, and a water supply at times of need and can (hopefully) be kept secret at times of war with enemies who are holding a city at siege, as the citizens will still have access to water.

[* Lines 9 and 11 of the Hittite Storm God vs Snake narrative show that the serpent lived somewhere in the downward direction and that its lair is a hole]



"The mountain" - which brought rain - "is first of all" -> first to receive the sacrifice during festival purulli? The sacrifice appears to be agricultural: bread, in return for a good harvest? (Force-reading again, based on what many heathens all over the world do.) Line 19: the bread is offered to Mt Zaliyanu (first), and in return rain is sought from him, which he therefore brings "[on account of] the bread" (i.e. as gift for the donated sacrifice of bread.)



Still, there's little comparison and even less need to infer borrowing from PIE to Japan via the Hittites. My own force-reading of meanings into this is the only thing that *inches* - as in really inches - the Hittite case anywhere near the Susanowo vs Orochi case, though even then the two narratives remain irreconcilably miles apart. Why do people insist that "borrowing" must be the case - for any oh-so-common agricultural/weather etc metaphors or even for the literalness in any of the simpler narrative commonalities that occur all over the world concerning serpents (weather-control, human sacrifice, shapeshifting)?**



In the early days of images of the moon being shown around, people from various parts of the world apparently recognised a "face" on the moon. There was no face - just crators. Nor was the notion rooted in some primeval human mythology. It's simply human *nature* to try to see faces in everything - including door knobs that have 2 screws at the top seen as eyes and the knob as the nose. Likewise, there may be real creatures [late dino remnants?] that "inspired" humans, or humans could just be projecting a larger version of animals they know into the sky or the water or whatever, or - as is at least true in the case of Daoists and probably Shintos too - the giant serpents and Longs are literally true.



What does *PIE* have to do with what could sooner be classified as coincidence or world-wide "syndrome"? Rather than accuse world mythology/some collective ancestral shared memory of all humanity, I'd sooner suspect the human tendency to anthropomorphise nature/the environment. (Though that is still not what I think is going on. If nothing else, the Daoist Long - and other Daoist Gods - are very real and do have power over that realm which they preside over. And the Shinto Gods are apparently true too.

Hey, when Indian Hindus foolishly gave christianism the benefit of the doubt that the non-historical jeebus existed and the equally evil invisible, unimageable = non-existent christoislamic gawd - without a single shred of evidence given to us about jeebusjehovallah - why in the world can't Hindu heathens give the benefit of the doubt to the Shintos and Taoists [and Hellenes, etc], who never even missionise on Hindus, and whose religion in many respects sounds like that of Hindus?)



** [color="#0000FF"]The Snake God Bida of the Ghanans was supposed to have rained gold[/color] (IIRC see the blackdrago.com site) in return for the yearly human sacrifices. Since literally raining gold on humans would rather be a punishment - lumps of gold would hit you hard on the head, besides gold can't compare to a secure supply of food such as from proper (conditions for) harvest - I'm assuming Bida brought the Ghanans the necessary supply of rain for successful agriculture, which then brought in good crop for them, which would have resulted in the nation growing and expanding to specialise in fields outside of agriculture (perhaps gold mining, or at least trade) which would have resulted in wealth [including much gold] for the Ghanans. Bida's favour in the form of rain was recognised as the primary/direct source of this wealth, so she 'rained gold'. When she was killed by the human man, she could no longer regulate the weather to be favourable for the Ghanans any more and so - as the narrative stated - the rain of gold ceased.

[Husky]

Post 6/6 [color="#0000FF"]Back to: "Dragons/Giant Snakes & Serpents in the world - common features[/color]



Native Oceanic narratives about dragons, serpents



blackdrago.com/fame/kataore.htm

Pacific narrative of the Maori of New Zealand. A dragon turned man-eater, that a hero - whose fioncee was among those eaten by the dragon - has to slay. He leads a band of warriors to the task.

- it lives in a cave

- it is a "taniwha", which wacky describes as

In Māori mythology, taniwha (Māori pronunciation: [ˈtanifa]) are beings that live in deep pools in rivers, dark caves, or in the sea, especially in places with dangerous currents or deceptive breakers (giant waves). They may be considered highly respected kaitiaki (protective guardians) of people and places, or in some traditions as dangerous, predatory beings, which for example would kidnap women to have as wives.

Interesting that dangerous taniwha could have a tendency to kidnap women for wives - something giant serpents to dragons all over the world elsewhere are often said to do. (Clearly taniwha must be magical else why would they want to marry outside their species?)

- this particular dragon is particularly described as the "dangerous taniwha" kind. Although it didn't kidnap the hero's maiden, it ate her.

- it appears to be magical, because the hero brings in men with mystical powers to say magical chants "to sap the dragon of its power"

- the men slay it





blackdrago.com/fame/walutahanga.htm

Oceanic narrative of a great magical serpent that features many occurrences of 8 as a special number (c.f. many occurrences of 8 in Susanowo vs Orochi battle), including it being repeatedly cut into 8 pieces to kill it. But it rejoins itself magically.





Native American

blackdrago.com/fame/ihuaivulu.htm

Basic Information

Type/Species: Hydra

Origin: South American Folklore



About Ihuaivulu

Ihuaivulu inhabits volcanoes. The monster has seven heads and is enormous in size. It is particularly dangerous because it can breathe fire. [1]

=> Fire-breathing 7-headed dragon/giant serpent in S America.



blackdrago.com/fame/gaasyendietha.htm

Basic Information

Type/Species: Unknown

Origin: Legends of the Seneca Native Americans



About Gaasyendietha

The dragon Gaasyendietha dwells in rivers and lakes locally. Although it is seldom described, it is said to be quite large. This dragon could cross into heaven on a trail of fire, and it could also spew fire. [1]



Some believe that the stories of Gaasyendietha exist because of meteors; others claim that Gaasyendietha is a meteor-fire dragon. [1]

Giant dragon that is a fire breather that dwells in rivers and lakes but is also a sky serpent => in terms of abilities, sounds a lot various types of Dragons known to the Chinese and other E Asians.



blackdrago.com/fame/kolowisi.htm

Basic Information

Title: The Serpent of the Sea

Type/Species: Sea Serpent

Origin: Zuni Native American Mythology



About Kolowisi / Kolowissi

A long time ago, a village existed under Thunder Mountain called Home of the Eagles. [2] Though nothing is there now but ruin, this village once housed many people, among them a priest-chief who had a beautiful daughter. She had only one bad trait: She could not tolerate dirt upon her person, [2] which caused her to even live apart from her own kin in a separate room. [3] Even this trait, however, would prove no issue had the village not been so near a sacred spring of water, a spring now called the Pool of the Apaches. [2,3]



The spring was sacred to Kolowissi, the Serpent of the Sea. The maiden spent so much time in the spring, cleaning her cloths and herself, defiling his waters, that he sought a means to punish her. [3] When the maiden returned yet again to the sacred waters, she found a small baby, alone, in the waters. [1] She took the baby home with her and went straight to her room, separate from her kin for her intolerance of dust. [3]



Her father, the priest-chief, sent one of her sister to find her for dinner. When the sister could not find her at the spring, she returned home to her sister's room, where she discovered the baby. The maiden explained where she had found him and would not leave the baby's side. The father knew that this matter could not be simple, for what mother would leave a baby in a spring? But, knowing the mistakes had been made, he simply waited to see what fruits they would bring. [3]



The maiden set the baby to sleep, and she herself drifted into sleep shortly after. When she had been asleep long enough, the baby began to transform back into his true self, Kolowisi / Kolowissi, the Serpent of the Sea. He lengthened himself slowly, coiling around and around the room, centering around the maiden, his giant head near hers as she slept. Finally, he reached his full size, but needed to hold his tail in his mouth. [4] (The symbol of the ouroboros is evoked here.) And the night passed like this, the maiden sleeping in the giant serpent's coils.



The "baby" was really Kolowisi, who then transformed into his true shape. He stole the girl and took her back to the spring. There, he made her his wife.



In another story, however, Kolowisi held back the floodwaters for a family to get up the mountain. By doing this, Kolowisi allowed these people to live, and then allowed the floodwaters to fill the valley.



Back to the Top

Physical Description

This is a huge serpent with horns on its head, an enormous mouth, and has fins along the length of its entire body.

- ability to controls floods

- sacred sea serpent

- "giant serpent", "huge serpent with horns". Horns are sort of what many E Asian dragons have. And they are Gods of waters too (even though E Asian dragons fly in the sky as well)

- doesn't eat maiden, but like other sea serpents, (steals and) marries her





blackdrago.com/fame/quetzalcoatl.htm

Type/Species: Amphiptere

Origin: Toltec and Aztec Mythology



About Quetzalcoatl / Kukulkan / Ehecatl

This was the Aztecs great feather serpent god. (Kukulkan was the name used by the Mayans for this creature.) As one of the most popular gods, this creature appeared in many forms of art as well as in tales. Not only this, but he was the only god that did not require human sacrifices. [1]



In addition to his popularity, he seems to have been god of many things. He was a Creator god, the god of twins, the god of the Evening and Morning Star, protector of craftsman, a rain maker as well as a fire-bringer, teacher of the finer arts, and the god of twins. As Echecatl, he was the god of winds. Furthermore, he is know as the god that created the calendar. [1]



Often, he was seen soaring throughout the sky creating a rainbow. Occasionally, he would take the form of a man or the sun, and eclipses were said to be caused by the Earth Serpent swallowing him.



The Quetzalcoatl was opposed to regular human sacrifices. So much so that when the god of war, Tezcatlipoca, appeared and asked for sacrifices, the Quetzalcoatl tried to dissuade others from agreeing to it. He failed, however, and decided to leave. [1]



How and where the Quetzalcoatl left has a bit of mystery to it. There are different variations of this tale. In one version, it is said that he proceed to the Gulf of Mexico and there burned his body. After which, he was reborn as the planet Venus. [1]



The more common ending is different. It has been suggested that the Spanish used this ending to aid in their conquering of the Aztecs. It said that the Quetzalcoatl left, promising his most loyal that he would return. He left on a raft that was supported by snakes. With this, he headed East.



It is believed that the second version was used by the Spanish because there are many depictions of the god becoming Venus, but slim to none of them depict him on a raft. [1]



Back to the Top

Physical Description

This creature was an amphiptere, meaning the creature only had two wings and no other limbs. Also, this creature possessed multicolored scales and feathers. Occasionally, The Quetzalcoatl would shape-shift to become a man. [1]

- Fire-serpent as well as rain-serpent and soars through the sky/sky serpent



Quetzalcoatl is to have taught the native Americans of Mexico maths and astronomy, while the lizard-like Mayan God Itzamna was the divine father who gave man life and is depicted as half-man, half-serpent.





blackdrago.com/fame/msikinepikwa.htm

Kinepeikwa / Msi-Kinepeikwa of the Shawnee Native Americans

a large serpent, much like a snake, that inhabited a lake

that could shape-shift (see at link).



Sea serpents, sky serpents, giant snakes, dragons - some multi-headed - occupying waters and associated with them, with floods, with rain, with storms/weather control, with fire, seems to be very common.

[Whirlpools were of course easily conceived of as sea monsters waiting underneath and wanting to snatch at people who ventured too near - again, in the conclusions/speculations of populations for whom there is otherwise no evidence of contact between them. E.g. the whirlpool sea creature Charybdis that was encountered during The Odyssey. And the whirlpool serpent of the Piute Native Americans, see blackdrago.com/fame/ancientserpent.htm ]

[Husky]

Not on dragons anymore.



The following is taken from a book from 1980 (by a scholar in the Classics):

Homeros' Odyssey V - 125: "So it was when Demeter of the braided tresses followed her heart and lay in love with Iasion in the triple-furrowed field;1"



[color="#800080"][And the footnote:][/color]

1. The cutting of three furrows was part of the fertility rites inaugurating the agricultural year. Such ritual ploughing was wide-spread. In the Chinese Book of Rites the Emperor himself cuts three furrows, the Three Dukes cut five, and the Ministers and Lords cut nine.

(Typical of Classics: they give just the data, no speculation. And look how they see no need to encroach.)



You *know* that the minute PIE-ists hear of this - and especially those of them working on turning China into a sink receiving PIE-goodness - they would write a thesis on how this is actually PIE onlee.



And I should mention that it turns out they did.

In a 2012 journal article in some Dutch journal publication, I found that Victor Mair - one of the famous persons appointed to do the aforementioned task (of declaring that China was a receiving sink for C Asian PIE learning - since of course Chinese are not part of the PIE clique, which means the evil beady green-eyed jealous PIE monster can't be far behind when a significant civilisation exists anywhere out of the IE area)

again: Victor Mair declared that <insert C Asian IE influence, Iranian is it?> did it. And "therefore" all these things existed in ancient China.

[If anyone doesn't know who Victor Mair is, they need to find out - else only cognitive dissonance will result - IF may still have links to stuff on him. The creep's like an ueber-PIE-ist, i.e. a white supremacist hiding behind a thin veneer of playing scholar. Ugh. Yuck.]



They're working over time to claim Chinese religion, BTW. Because you know - and they certainly know - heathenism (religion) is the well-spring of civilisation. (They were always after claiming Chinese religion when they started work on that whole "let's find IE influences in China".)



The entire compendium of journal articles - to which Mair contributed his bit on China - was to this end: something about influences in religions of Europe and Asia.



Of course, Mair (who naturally took on China as the area to be next worked on for appropriation into PIE-ism) conveniently only knows of one-way influence: from IE to China. He declared that since "pastoral culture"* has been seen in China, that this obviously "must have" fundamentally influenced ancient China's value system (=code for religio, but that was already obvious in the very title of the compendium and the rest of the article.)

[* Which is IE only, of course]



IIRC Mair - politely, of course: it's easy to be polite when you're thieving from others in open daylight - IIRC Mair went on and on about the unidirectional travel of culture and religio into China from IE. Amazing: Not a single important thing in native Chinese religion (Taoism) is to be Chinese. [Clearly it bothers NW European aliens no end, nah, that the NW Gods seem to have permanently abandoned them, and that they therefore aren't heathens and incapable of heathenism, just wannabes? (Goes without saying that the permanent exception is the NW heathens, none of whom - it turns out - ever seems to mention IE.) Meanwhile the Daoists still see their Gods.]



The immediately following article was specifically for critiquing Mair's article. In particular, it critiqued his blanket declaration that "pastoral [=IE] culture seen in China <-> obviously 'must have' fundamentally influenced Chinese value system [religio]" actually lacked any evidence for this declaration (this happens so often, why only complain now? And since when did lack of evidence stop PIE-ists? Tomorrow every PIE-ist fanboy will refer to Mair's declaration from omniscience/ohne evidence to declare that all of Chinese civiliation - minus the population - are the jewel in IE's crown onlee). IIRC, the critical paper also mentioned something else: that famous phenomenon that swings one way, then the other every other decade*:



Victor Mair wrote a translation on a Taoist work and essentially declared it was influenced by the outside (IE), since the ideas in this Taoist work was "clearly" "all new" to the Chinese psyche (uh?). The title of course indicated who these outsiders were and what this outside influence was: the title mentioned Taoism and Yoga.**



[* I note it has always swung in India's favour only whenever Vedicists or PIEists are at the writing end, and against India when new age dabblers in Daoism else ur-Shramanism are making the claims. "Oddly enough", I've never seen native traditional Hindus or Daoists make the claim themselves. Hmmmm.

Note: aliens always use Hindus' Yoga to claim Daoist practices for themselves/for IE, so you can stop feeling complimented.]



** Now, before ur-Shramanists get all excited, the particular Taoist work in question pre-dates Buddhism and is at latest contemporaneous with Jainism's beginnings in India (so not time enough for Jainism to have influenced anybody that scooted out to China to "teach" the native un-IE Chinese).

Besides, Victor Mair is a hard core supremacist PIE-ist type: they don't like the shramanisms (and never did: they'r racists, right, and their position on buddhism etc is the same as that of the racist oryanists from the 19th century. Buddhism/shramanism is regarded a heresy of IE-ism, of the white man's superior pre-christian "pagan" religion - as he has now [mis]reconstructed it. And not because of the Vedic Hindu reasons for regarding shramanism as pashandas.) Hardcore PIE-ists types care only about Vedic religion (as the white man's ur-religion).

And no alien Vedicist (as Hindus really ought to know) would *ever* credit ur-Shramanism with Yoga: every PIE-ist and dabbler of this type always insists Yoga is Vedic only*** and points all the way to the Rg Vedam (which is the bible of most PIE-ists and all Vedicists).



*** While Yoga is indeed Vedic, the reason the aliens claim yoga is for reasons of superiority - facts are seen as subservient to this end, and counter-facts are seen as meant to be circumvented (which is when you see cases of them not bothering to give evidence for humongous claims).



Chinese/Daoists are in such trouble. [Interesting how aliens are always busy starting publications and writing journal articles about Asians - stealing Asian stuff behind Asians' backs - with most Asians never knowing about it. Then one day the aliens appear and declare "This is how things are. You must accept it. Refer to our journal articles. If you refuse to accept, we'll just have to declare you're irrational and continue discussing you and your culture behind your backs and amongst ourselves." <= You know, like they did with Hindus.]



And so another heathenism is staring down the barrel of the PIE elephant gun, about to be destroyed - give or take a few decades. And when Daoism falls, Shinto and Korean religion could too (since they're closely related).

Score for christianism. But then PIE-ism = a neo-paganism = a christian diversion.



Then again, the Chinese are far more clever than aliens - I don't know about IQs or whatever, I speak from practical experience - maybe this will be one encroachment project that won't turn out quite the way the alien terrorists projected.





One can already envision alien terrorists showing their true colours hereafter when Taoists tell them to stop dabbling, and declare that "By (P)IE-ism, Daoism and Daoist practices and Daoist Gods are 'actually' 'originally' aliens' own ancestral religion/practices and 'therefore' they have automatic access". Then they will just waltz ahead and *take* Taoist texts and infiltrate Taoists circles (pretending to be sincere, as aliens always do) to learn to Dabble in Daoism.

You know, the way they've done with the Vedam. Just like the "Pure Vedism/Vedic reconstructionism" Euro movements. (Not many IE-ists practice "reconstructed" PIE religion or speak "reconstructed" PIE, or worship "reconstructed" PIE Gods with "reconstructed" PIE rituals after all. By far most IE-ists dabble only in Hindus' religion). And it will take but one traitor among the Daoists to sell Daoist rites to the aliens so that the latter may dabble in this. (It always takes only 1 traitor, but India has produced a great many traitors selling the Vedam to their temporarily adulating alien fans.)



I blame "Hindu" traitors for whatever happens in future to Daoism etc at the hands of PIE-ism (or that other christian spawn, comparative mythology). They enabled alien dabbling and gave aliens a taste for dabbling outside of the Euro-sphere.

And Indians *would* not kill this beast [PIE-ism] when it was still in its infancy (and let's face it, Sanskrit and the Vedas are what gave rise to PIE-ism. PIE-ism = the product of alien meets Vedic religion*). Now it's moved past destroying your kind - and past instilling gangrene among Indians - onto populations that *don't* deserve this crap. There should be some retribution.



[* Skt and the Vedas - religio! - are still at the heart of what PIE-ism is after. Has Deutsche Welle (German broadcasting corp.) dumped its "Sanskrit" channel yet? (I notice they even have all-English channels now - where's the self-respect? and what's wrong with German?) But don't see them or anyone else having a PIE channel.

BTW: Deutsche Welle's Skt channel is not a sign of their respect for Hindus or India - which tends to be how gullible Indians like to interpret these things. DW has a Skt channel because they think Skt belongs to them. (Duh.)]



Never mind. Nothing works for the aliens. Which perhaps is the final proof of all of how none of this is remotely theirs.

My gawd what a disease christianism is. It's like a black hole.

[Husky]

Post 1



Brief diversion back to dragons. This is not the main post.



1. In #414, with reference to a quote from wackypedia:

- Another case is of this Erlang also "suppressing a fire dragon that lived in the mountains north of Dujiangyan by climbing to the top of Mount Yulei, turning into a giant and building a dam with 66 mountains then filling it with water from Dragon Pacifying Pool"

Is fire dragon a reference to (a dragon causing) drought?

I actually know this narrative on Erlang Shen but I'd never thought about it in the sense of it an additional metaphorical meaning too.



Anyway, my conclusion of a dragon causing drought is not the first logical one - no one else would have comitted such a silly oversight.

It's supposed to specifically be a *fire* dragon that lived in the *mountains* and which Erlang Shen needed to pacify with *water* from a pool. => Sounds more like a dragon living in a volcano and controlling eruptions.

Like the native American case: blackdrago.com/fame/ihuaivulu.htm "Ihuaivulu inhabits volcanoes. The monster has seven heads and is enormous in size. It is particularly dangerous because it can breathe fire."



In any case, it's not likely people would try to de-mythicise this instance of Erlang taking on a dragon, the way they de-mythicised Erlang vs River dragon as being a human engineer who brought irrigation into the specific river network. Erlang Shen growing into a giant and creating a dam with 66 mountains filled with water from a pool sounds a bit harder to explain away in everyday terms: I'm not familiar with humans even in our age being capable of stopping volcano eruptions let alone in this manner. So I guess that would explain why Chinese de-mythicisation attempts left that one as a "myth" about an actual Daoist God, so that wacky has no alternative explanations.

(Erlang Shen is famous for taming dangerous dragons, BTW.)



2. And that leads to the other native American case of fire dragons which is also interesting: meteor dragons, already seen in the following on the Americas (so not PIE either):

blackdrago.com/fame/gaasyendietha.htm

Origin: Legends of the Seneca Native Americans



About Gaasyendietha

The dragon Gaasyendietha dwells in rivers and lakes locally. Although it is seldom described, it is said to be quite large. This dragon could cross into heaven on a trail of fire, and it could also spew fire. [1]



Some believe that the stories of Gaasyendietha exist because of meteors; others claim that Gaasyendietha is a meteor-fire dragon. [1]

Reminiscent of how the serpentine Hindu Gods Rahu and Ketu are often said to be the head and tail of a comet.





3. The following mentions an African giant sea serpent (and according to some a dragon-like creature considering its bat-like wings) with a horse-shaped head, which fits the common description some populations across the world seem to give for their giant serpentine/dragon creatures:



fuckyeahafricanmythology.tumblr.com/post/14166958244/art-by-kenya-marshall-inkanyamba-dragon-sea

Inkanyamba



Dragon/Sea Serpent



Origins- Zulu

Habitat - Lake Waterfall



The Inkanyamba is a legendary serpent rumoured to be liking in a waterfall lake area in near Piermaritzburg north forests, or at the base of Howick Falls, South Africa.



The creature is described a large serpent with a head shaped like a horse, some have said it has large wings like a bird or even a bat. The Inkanyamba is mostly active during the summer months, and is believed that its anger causes the seasonal storms.

Note again that, besides horse-like head and serpentine body and even wings according to some:

- it lives in a watery space

- controls seasonal storms (and active in summer)





4. Half-human half-serpents are common in some of the oldest religious traditions of African communities.

This next example which I'd likewise forgotten to post earlier, is of the Dogon of Mali who have half-human half-serpent twin-Gods from whom humanity and knowledge is to have come down.



mythencyclopedia.com/A-Am/African-Mythology.html

How Things Came To Be. Many myths explain how the world came into existence. The Dogon say that twin pairs of creator spirits or gods called Nummo hatched from a cosmic egg. Other groups also speak of the universe beginning with an egg. People in both southern and northern Africa believe that the world was formed from the body of an enormous snake, sometimes said to span the sky as a rainbow.

Their semi-serpentine appearance is apparent from:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogon_people

The key spiritual figures in the religion were the Nummo/Nommo twins. According to Ogotemmêli’s description of them, the Nummo, whom he also referred to as the Serpent, were amphibians that were often compared to serpents, lizards, chameleons, and occasionally even sloths (because of their being slow moving and having a shapeless neck). They were also described as fish capable of walking on land; while they were on land, the Nummo stood upright on their tails. The Nummos’ skin was primarily green, but, like the chameleon, it sometimes changed colours. It was said to at times have all the colours of the rainbow.[13] In other instances the Nummo were referred to as "Water Spirits."[14] Although the Nummo were identified as being "Dieu d'eau" (Gods of Water) by Marcel Griaule, Ogotemmêli identified the Nummo as hermaphrodites and they appeared on the female side of the Dogon sanctuary."[15] They were primarily symbolized by the sun, which was a female symbol in the religion. In the Dogon language the sun’s name, nay, had the same root as "mother," na, and “cow,” nā.[16] They were symbolized by the colour red, a female symbol.

And this next link wants to draw parallels with the Chinese and Greek and Babylonian cases

suite101.com/a/the-snake-man-in-ancient-myths-a62717

The Snake Man in Ancient Myths of Africa

According to the mythology of the Dogon Tribe in Mali, Africa, the union of God and earth created the Nummo twins, male and female, half human and half snake. The twins, claims Laird Scranton in The Science of the Dogon, represented the ideal coherence of spirit and matter. They taught man how to weave from the spiraling coils of fibers. The garment thus woven was called "the First Word"(33). It was the Nummo twins as well that taught man the skills of civilization—agriculture, architecture, symbolic language. In fact, Scranton reveals that the Dogons who lived around 3400 B.C. were familiar with 21st Century science. Particle physics, the relationship between light and time, the uncertainty principle, genetics, cell mitosis and more have for centuries been part of the Dogon culture (190-1), a situation that alludes to the possible extraterrestrial origins of the Nummo twins.



The Snake Man in Ancient Myths of China

China's Nummo twins were Fuxi and Nuwa a brother and sister portrayed with [color="#0000FF"]human torsos and serpent tails. They retreated to the Kunlun Mountain to ask for permission to be man and wife. They received divine approval and from the pair came the human race. According to ancient myths, Fuxi was responsible for civilizing his people; he taught them cooking, writing, and fishing with nets. He was the originator of the I Ching and the mathematical square which he derived from the shell of the celestial tortoise.[/color]

[color="#800080"](Compare with African case of the Dogon above. Highlighting the Chinese case as it's relevant for a future post.)[/color]



The Snake Man in Ancient Myths of Athens

Born of earth, Cecrops, whose name means "face with a tail" was half man, half serpent or fish. Founder and the first King of Athens, he ruled the city for 50 years. During his reign, Cecrops introduced the skills of civilization—reading, writing, the census, marriage and ceremonial burial. His sense and sensibilities can be seen in his choice of Athena as the patron of the city because she brought with her the olive tree, a source of wood, oil and food for the people.



The Snake Man in Ancient Myths of Babylon

Half man, half fish or serpent, Oannes rose from the sea. According to ancient myths, he had two heads, one human, and one fish. He had both human feet and fish tail. Despite the monstrosity of his appearance, he spoke human language and taught the Babylonians civilizing skills -- writing, arts, sciences, the establishment of laws, geometry, agriculture and the civility of manners.

5. More on the Chinese Fuxi and Nuwa of Daoism. Am mainly pasting the following as it contains indicators relevant to a future post:



taoism.about.com/b/2008/09/03/nuwa-fuxi.htm

Note the traditional image at the link shows human heads and torsos and serpentine lower bodies that look intertwined - like a DNA double-helix formation (or whatever)

[color="#0000FF"]The first of ancient China's "Three Sovereigns"[/color] was Fuxi, who is credited with the discovery of the bagua - the eight trigrams which are the foundation of the Yijing.

[color="#800080"][image caption:][/color] Fuxi is pictured above intertwined with Nuwa - who is sometimes named as his sister, sometimes as his wife.



According to one Chinese creation myth, Fuxi and Nuwa were siblings, and the sole survivors of a massive flood. After the flood, Fuxi and Nuwa received Divine approval to procreate, in order to re-establish the human race. This was a big job, so in addition to the usual means of procreating, the two were also empowered to create clay figures, into which they infused the breath of life.



On one level, this story can be understood as representing the dance of Yin and Yang - the primordial feminine and masculine energies whose interpenetration births the "ten-thousand things." On a less abstract level, Fuxi and Nuwa represent one of the earliest examples of a spiritual partnership between a man and a woman. Such partnerships are an aspect of Taoist practice in which the often-sticky issues of gender and sexuality can be worked with - hopefully to the benefit (viz. Immortality/Enlightenment!) of both partners.

Note: Typically moronic christoislamics will like to insinuate Adam and Eve and the ubiquitous Deluge motif into the above, in order to declare that Daoism is "(distorted) biblical religion"*, but those motifs in Judaism were shared in common with pre-Judaic related Semitic tribes as well as with 1. the ancient Greeks (apple of knowledge? serpent? check; IIRC see Michael Kalapoulos' site) and 2. with everybody else in the Levant and beyond.

*Very* common narrative. Christoislamics however think they're special/unique/original and that theirs is "history" and everybody else's is "myth". In reality, it's not christoislamic, it was taken over by christoislamism from Judaism which inherited it from pre-existing Levant traditions.

But it's ancient African. It's ancient Chinese. (Besides being also seen in many places all over the Levant.) Etc.



(* Consider that elsewhere christists with their usual half-baked knowledge were seen declaring that the sacred dog-like guardians (Koma-inu) of Shinto temples that make the Hindu OM sound are "actually" declaring jeebus, "because" jeebus is alpha-omega as per the babble - note the encroachment on Hellenistic notions - and OM, as per the christist, is merely the equivalent to "alpha-omega". Alien christist does not know - fortunately - that Shinto got OM from Hindoo religion, else it will next declare that the Vedas are affirming jeebus onlee - by the same moronic christologic.)



Anyway - extract from wacky's Fuxi page:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu_Xi

Creation legend[edit]

According to legend, the land was swept by a great flood and only Fu Xi and his sister Nüwa survived. They retired to the mythological Kunlun Mountain, where they prayed for a sign from the Emperor of Heaven. The divine being approved their union and the siblings set about procreating the human race. In order to speed up the process, Fu Xi and Nüwa used clay to create human figures, and with the power divine entrusted to them made the clay figures come alive.[1] Fu Xi then came to rule over his descendants, although reports of his long reign vary between sources, from 115 years (2852–2737 BCE) to 116 years (2952–2836 BCE).



[color="#800080"][2nd image's caption:][/color] Fu Xi, with the 8 trigrams and a turtle, as imagined by the Song painter Ma Lin



Social importance[edit]

On one of the columns of the Fu Xi Temple in Gansu Province, the following couplet describes Fu Xi's importance: "Among the three primogenitors of Hua-Xia civilization, Fu Xi in Huaiyang Country ranks first."[1] During the time of his predecessor Nüwa (who, according to some sources, was also his wife and/or sister), society was matriarchal and primitive. Childbirth was seen to be miraculous, not requiring the participation of the male, and children only knew their mothers. As the reproductive process became better understood, ancient Chinese society moved towards a patriarchal system and Fu Xi assumed primary importance.[1]

In the beginning there was as yet no moral or social order. Men knew their mothers only, not their fathers. When hungry, they searched for food; when satisfied, they threw away the remnants. They devoured their food hide and hair, drank the blood, and clad themselves in skins and rushes. Then came Fu Xi and looked upward and contemplated the images in the heavens, and looked downward and contemplated the occurrences on earth. He united man and wife, regulated the five stages of change, and laid down the laws of humanity. He devised the eight trigrams, in order to gain mastery over the world.



— Ban Gu, Baihu tongyi[2]

Fu Xi taught his subjects to cook, to fish with nets, and to hunt with weapons made of iron. He instituted marriage and offered the first open-air sacrifices to heaven. A stone tablet, dated 160 CE, shows Fu Xi with Nüwa.



[color="#0000FF"]Traditionally, Fu Xi is considered the originator of the I Ching (also known as the Yi Jing or Zhou Yi), which work is attributed to his reading of the He Map (or the Yellow River Map). According to this tradition, Fu Xi had the arrangement of the trigrams (八卦 bāgùa) of the I Ching revealed to him supernaturally. This arrangement precedes the compilation of the I Ching during the Zhou dynasty. He is said to have discovered the arrangement in markings on the back of a mythical dragon horse (sometimes said to be a turtle) that emerged from the Luo River. This discovery is said to have been the origin of calligraphy.[/color] Fu Xi is also credited with the invention of the Guqin musical instrument, though credit for this is also given to Shennong and Huangdi.

[color="#800080"](Are Guqin and Guzheng the same? If so, heavenly sounding instrument.)[/color]



The Figurists viewed Fu Xi as Enoch, the biblical patriarch. According to Mirza Tahir Ahmad, the fourth Caliph of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, all Chinese religions are derived from the teachings of Fu Xi.[3]

[color="#800080"](On that last note: Islamics in China also declared that Confucius is a prophet of allah onlee - :hysterisch: - also in order to claim China for islamania.

But why shouldn't the islamaniacs do backward projection when every other missionary movement does it and tries to get away with it?)[/color]

[Husky]

Post 2/?





Only related to the final bits of the previous post (regarding Fuxi and Nuwa).

Otherwise, from this post onwards, related to 426 (PIE-ism) again.







[color="#0000FF"]These nexts posts are about AIT. But not the Indian one.[/color] (Which means I can talk about it.)

The viral IE appropriation project has moved on - it has long since swallowed India for PIE-ism, so the paradigm of India being IE and Vedas and Skt being part of the PIE world is now accepted as a given in western circles (which is surely the only circle that matters, no? they're talking over your heads after all; it's With Or Without You). IE has moved on to focus on [color="#0000FF"]AIT into China via Oryans from/in China's northwest[/color].

And I mean the focus has specifically shifted to appropriating Chinese religio-culture/civilisation as IE achievement, not just transference of "tools" or horses or sheep or something.



Since IE in China has not yet been "established" - the scholarship is still hard at work to write all speculation up in significant detail for western people to feel sufficiently convinced to start declaring that Chinese civilisation's IE origins too is "self-evident" (which I predict will happen in about 2 or 3 decades time = about the usual timescale for the viral IE meme to swallow another space).

After which, all subsequent discussion and history-writing on China will be of the form "As we know, Chinese civilisation - which is IE - started when IE-ism influenced the earliest Chinese dynasties..." and further statements like "Ancient Chinese religion is originally IE. Taoism is the miscegenated religion of the Chinese who hijacked ancient IE Chinese religion to nativise it.*" Direct quotes will come later.

[* C.f. how "Vedic religion is originally IE and Hinduism is the miscegenated religion of the miscegenated Indians that's derived from Vedic religion".]



- After all, PIE-ism was never really about you. (Indians didn't think it was, surely?) They don't want you, they want what you have. They want it for themselves. Which is why they think Vedic religion is more theirs than it is yours. You're just the miscegenated garbage they're stuck with/have to for now still occasionally deal with as the middle-man to get acess to the Vedas etc. (And to think some Indians *actually* teach aliens. Bij Donar.)



- PIE-ism is about the self-declared "Europods/Caucasoids", the "white man" (a modern invention, by which they run over the poor ancient Greeks and Romans and a lot of others). PIEism is their appropriation methodology: their systematised way of legally declaring every civilisation originated from the "white" man. One civilisation at a time.*



And this is why it's long moved on from India, past India. Oh sure, they want the Vedas and Skt - it is the core thing they wanted (at the centre of their little universe), but there's much more to be claimed yet, to be made "safe" for PIE-ism "alone" (=claims of uniqueness/specialness and at the expense of others not being allowed to originate any of it <- always associated with superiority syndrome). Only oryans can innovate, only oryans can create. Others can only be inspired, instructed. Proof is PIE and hence AIT-China.

They already feel confident they have pocketed Vedas and Skt for themselves with their arguments (and there have been enough Indians to roll with the argument, so it will stand - for longer than you will). But there are other major civilisations out there - still living, still a testament to what other human populations/societies have achieved over time. And the jealous demon that is the "white man syndrome" (white supremacist syndrome) can't rest until they've signed themselves as the authors of all human civilisation.





[* When they tried encroaching on Africa it wasn't called IE-ism. I recall a Euro South African's novel - Sunbird or something, I read it in RD's abridged version in NLs, "De Zonnevogel" I think it was called - from maybe the 1960s or 1970s. It used as backdrop the then still popular hypothesis of an ancient "white" civilisation in the heart of sub-saharan Africa (have to justify apartheid somehow nah? like the Brits did in India) that brought civilisation to Africa and was the source of innovation in Africa. And which ancient alleged white civilisation possessed angry African slaves - note that ban on miscegenation is backprojected to justify ongoing apartheid - that eventually plotted, took over and destroyed the "white" innovators.

The blurb on the author of the novel said that the background to the story was based on these theories of a potential white origin to civilisation in Africa. Clearly people believed in it. Wonder if they still do?)

Anyway, this set of posts is not about Africa. (As to why I read the novel: in my defence, I used to read most every piece of fiction that came my way that wasn't a romance.)



[color="#0000FF"]The stuff relevant to the AIT-C comes in later posts.[/color]

Why the following quoteblock in this post is relevant will hopefully become apparent later on. But need to read the stuff below to understand the Chinese version of their history versus the rewrite of it that the PIE-ists are busy working on.



Important to understand is that

- the Chinese view their civilisation as largely self-created, self-innovated, self-contained. I.e. they view themselves as owning their civiliation, viewing their ancestors as its authors.* Not a modern Chinese view, BTW. (And indeed this was the view the west largely subscribed to. Until PIE-ism and particularly until PIE-ism's roving eye noticed ideas and rites and religio-cultural expressions that PIE-ism had by now thus far argued were exclusively IE.)

- Whereas the PIE-ists not only insist on "some" external influences, but ones of the most influential kind, and are working really hard on developing a comprehensive framework (the AIT: Aryan Influence + Invasion Theory of China) whereby t[color="#0000FF"]hey insist that all of Chinese civilisation (starting with religion - to language and arts and tech)[/color] is owing to PIE-ism only. I kid you not.



* Sort of like Indians used to think - in a time before your short memory reaches - that natives to Bharatam were the authors of Hindus' religio-culture. (Good thing the PIE-ists set ya straight, nah? Where would you be without the PIE-ists teaching you every step of the way? <- More "proof" that PIE must have taught your ancestors too.)





aboutchinaculture.com/chinese-history-xia-dynasty/

Chinese History Xia Dynasty

18. May, 2013

by admin chinese history 1 comment 248 views



Chinese History:The Xia Dynasty (2070 B.C.-1600 B.C.)

As the first slave dynasty in Chinese history, the Xia Dynasty began with the reign of Qi, the son of the Great Yu, and ended with the fall of Jie. Qi established the system of hereditary dynastic rule.



Chinese civilization, as described in mythology, begins with Pangu, the creator of the universe and a succession of legendary sage-emperors and culture heroes among them are Huang Di, Yao, and Shun) who taught the ancient Chinese to communicate and to find sustenance, clothing, and shelter.



[color="#0000FF"]The first chinese civilization was established around the fertile areas of Huanghe (The Yellow River) more than four thousand years ago. The first glimpse of chinese characters had taken form, and unlike any other places on the world, this cultural development has been delivered without any kind of decisive interruption till this day. The cultural development of Central-China and East-Asia was influenced by the contrast between two dramatically different communities. In the northern and western parts of the country one could find enormous wastelands, inhabited by nomadic societies. Compared to people in other regions, the nomads were economically poor, but their military strength was superior. In the southern and eastern parts of the country, the fertile river areas gave life to intensive agriculture and the establishment of great communities. These two types of communities were bound together in an exchange of goods but conflicts often appeared. The farming areas were constantly attacked by the northern barbarians.[/color]

[color="#800080"](The above is an important bit to know as it is directly pertinent to the AIT-C - Aryan Invasion else Influence on China, since PIE-ists are working on declaring that everything from NW is 1. IE-ism because "nomadic/pastoral kultur is IE onlee" and hence 2. China's IE NW/influx of IE from its NW moulded Chinese civilisation.)[/color]



The great area which eventually became China, stretched itself from the jungle in the south to the steppes and deserts in the north. In the south, the Yunnan-plateau, covered with mountains and rainforests formed a barrier. This barrier could not prevent the Mongolian habitants from moving south but it did accomplish making the South-East Asia, except for parts of Nan Yue, impenetrable for the imperial troops. In the west, the hard to reach highlands of Tibet were also left in peace until the middle of the first century after Christ.



Between the Yunnan-plataeu and the range of mountains of Isin-ling, one could spot the south-Chinese vegetation-belt, divided by the mighty Yangzijiang. Different types of vegetation were gradually developed and soon, people could enjoy the fruits from hundreds of orange trees and the extracts from different kinds of tea-plants. But the importance of this area in the Chinese cultural development was not determined by these types of vegetation. It was the introduction of millet from the north and rice from South-East Asia that made this area historical. Millet and soybeans played an important role in agriculture.



The ancient main area of China was located near the Yellow River, covered with “loose soil”. It stretched itself up against the steppes and deserts of Mongolia. It was in this region one first found the early development of Chinese and East-Asian agriculture and these fertile areas also formed the basis of the first Chinese civilizations. The “loose soil” was easy to grow but the climate troubled the farmers with it’s strong and instant rainfalls. Huanghe, “The Sorrow of China” rapidly flooded the lowlands and destroyed many plantations.



The ancient Chinese stories from the dawn of time were without doubt legends. A Chinese legend said that a gigantic god named Pan Gu separated heaven and earth by one single slice with his mighty sword. Even though the Chinese people lived in the centuries before Christ, they seem to have made up stories which stretched farther back towards the dawn of time. China’s most famous historian, Sima Qian, who died around 85 BC, tells us about The Yellow Emperor, Huangdi, whom he assumed existed more than 2600 years before Christ.



[color="#0000FF"]Legend holds that the Xia was preceded by a succession of three sovereigns and five emperors. Fuxi, the first of the three sovereigns, usually is depicted alongside his wife and sister, the goddess Nugua. Fuxi and Nugua are human from the waist up and have the tails of dragons. Shun, the last of the five emperors, abdicated in favor of Yu, the first emperor of the Xia Dynasty.[/color]

[color="#800080"](At least PIE-ists can't use Zeus being brother and husband to Hera to claim this: Zeus and Hera weren't half-dragon.)[/color]



The first prehistoric dynasty is said to be Xia, from about the twenty-first to the sixteenth century B.C. Xia-dynasty was founded by the Si-clan, who were descendants of the clan’s foundation father, Yu. Because of the lack of written sources, historians have still not gained a correct idea of how the people lived at that time. According to the later tradition, Yu spent thirteen years to dig out channels and maintain dikes. When emperor Shun died, the officials disagreed with the imperial decision of letting Shun’s son inherit the throne. They wanted Yu instead, who after his death was followed by his son. It was Yu who founded the first imperial dynasty in China.



Until scientific excavations were made at early bronze-age sites at Anyang, Henan Province, in 1928, it was difficult to separate myth from reality in regard to the Xia. But since then, and especially in the 1960s and 1970s, archaeologists have uncovered urban sites, bronze implements, and tombs that point to the existence of Xia civilization in the same locations cited in ancient Chinese historical texts. At minimum, the Xia period marked an evolutionary stage between the late neolithic cultures and the typical Chinese urban civilization of the Shang dynasty.



Xia was conquered by Tang, and a new era had begun, the Shang-dynasty was founded.

[color="#800080"](Note other Chinese recountings of their history IIRC state that there was linear seguing from one dynasty to the next of the 3 foundational dynasties.)[/color]

[Husky]

Post 3/?



From here on it's mostly Victor Mair. 'Cause he's leading the PIE cavalry - appropriate term for oryanism, surely? - to subsume Chinese civilisation as an IE product.



AIT - Aryan Invasion/Influence Theory via northwest of China. ("West west, forever west. Do the Oryans ever invade non-IE from the east?" :grin

(But Mair repeatedly and ominously promises to take up [predictably PIE] influences in south China and in Japanese [Shinto] mythological motifs too - stating that these are topics that deserve articles of their own and are to be dealt with in future.)





Abbreviations Mair is known to use in his works:

EAH = East Asian Heartland (i.e. the Chinese/E-Asian sink or receptacle for gracious IE donations)

OSBI = Oracle Shell and Bone Inscription





- [color="#0000FF"]AIT in India's case could be reconciled owing to the doctrine of miscegenation.[/color] PIE-ism needs to claim your language, (to claim) your oldest ritual texts (i.e. the Vedam in India's case).

- [color="#0000FF"]AIT in India's case required a genetic invasion - actual IE genetic presence.[/color] Initially this was to have been large scale/full-fledged invasion. All your kShatriyas and Brahmanas certainly. And to this day: anything pretty. Now the genetic presence is to have been to some relatively minor degree (they keep it to a minimum sufficient to claim what they want, without being stuck with too much Indians).



Genetic invasion/input was necessary since, as per their original argument - documented in western articles pasted on IF much earlier - language transfer of Skt to Indians needed people transfer of hypothetical Oryans into India. (But note, language will cease to depend on people transfer if argued in any other direction: hardcore PIE-ists don't want to be miscegenated or a product).

- Whenever they can't push the argument completely (if there's sudden contradicting data, any sign of genes travelling the other way, etc.) they declare small migration (small enough to be barely detected, large enough to crown IE as the well-spring of Indian civilisation). And then IE still stands. (So you'll never disprove it except with a time machine. Get inventing.)



[color="#0000FF"]Aryan Influence Theory is only a fallback in the Indian case.

Aryan Influence Theory is a major cornerstone of the AIT for China.[/color]

- That's not to say that Oryanists deny "IE" people having influenced the Chinese gene pool - but China is not Caucasoid and you have to bear in mind that the entire PIE enterprise is for the glory of "caucasianism" onlee, by which the un-miscegenated "white man" is meant, not people who are unwanted collateral damage (which is why Indians are to have been miscegenated).

- And the future will be conducive to start arguing for a greater IE genetic input into China, since China has very beautiful women after all (and IE-ists have a weakness for a pretty face. Every pretty Indian female is always argued as being "obviously a product of some IE ancestry somewhere" followed by "See, she's of <insert obscure Hindu community> which is <insert magic relation to IE>").



As it is, PIE-ists do claim minor but very key actual Oryan influential presence in China - as major emperors et al. (Previously they had pounced on the Yellow Emperor, but that became a different problem, now they pounced on the heads of imperial dynasties - or at least their gurus - for important reasons.)





Anyway, onto Mair. Let's start with my favourite declaration/conclusion of his.

Certain ancient Chinese religious texts (Daoist) ask cosmological questions. When I first heard of these, it had reminded me of when I was spying through some translations from Hindus' upanishads, also full of such existential and cosmological questions. <- Common feature of heathenism by the way. (Unlike christoislamic dogmas, heathen religions ponder the nature of the universe, as well as man's place in it and in relation to it.) But in the hands of PIE-ists such enquiry must always be PIE onlee, and hence when detected in non-IE space, it is from IE influence onlee. (Surely?) Just asking questions requires IE prompting, apparently.

The relevant section from Victor Mair's article follows. Some time after that, the response by Heiner Roetz will follow, asking the very question that surely pops into the minds of all non-PIE-ist readers.

Note that at this point in the Mair article, Mair has already developed his argument (but not with proof) that any Taoists possessed of magical powers are of the Magi tradition alone: all magical people, all incantation, all sacrifice, all ritual, all oracling is claimed for IE-ness (Mair has done so via handwaving already at this stage, and feels he can just continue by referring to Chinese cases with "IE" terms from here on in. He declared a Wu was a Magi. And all within a page in some publication. A miracle. Now does that mean the entire Daoist Wu-dan mountain and all of Daoist Wu-xia martial arts lit is now IE?)

Anyway. And so he uses the word mage/Magi for Daoist ritualists at this point in a self-evident manner - and of course Rishi is also used in an encroaching way. (Important note: whenever I referred to Daoist "Rishis" I only meant the kind of Daoists who would remind Hindus of Rishis, and did not use it to insinuate that there is any IE connection or even Hindu connection.)

6. Heavenly Questions



An Iranian style mage #1 and an Indian-like RiShi ("seer") appear together in a memorable passage from the Zhuang Zi, a Taoist philosophical text dating to around the latter half of the 4th c. BC. This is the story of the contest of spiritual powers between Ji Xian and Master Hu (7.5). #2



The former, a mage, also appears in 14.1 playing the role of dispenser of cosmic wisdom who can answer riddles that would stump even an ancient Chinese sage. The puzzles that mage Xian solves have an even broader, trans-Eurasian resonance since they take the form of an extended series of riddles uncannily like those posed by early Indo-European seers and priests. 37



37. Mair, Victor H. (tr. and intro.), Wandering on the Way. Early Taoist Tales and Parables of Chuang Tzu <etc> 1998 ...; Chen Guying (ed. and tr.), Zhuang Zi jin zhu jin yi [A Modern Annotation and Translation of the Chuang Xi], Beijing; Zhonghua 1983 ; a slightly revised reprinting <of a Taiwanese publication from 1975>.

(And this is the sole purpose of Mair translating and introducing Daoist texts, by the way. To work his way - over time - into claiming them for oryanism. He does this regularly.)



The Indo-European quality of such riddles #3 appears even more clearly in one of the most unusual and baffling texts #4 in the whole of Chinese literature, "Heavenly Questions" (Tian wen).38 Attributed to the first Chinese poet known by name and about whom we have a modicum of biographical information, Qu Yuan (340?-278 BCE), "Heavenly Questions" forms a part of the celebrated southern anthology known as the Chu ci (Elegies of Chu). Qu Yuan was a member of the royal family of Chi and a loyal official to two of its rulers.#5



38. For a complete, annotated translation of "Heavenly Questions," see Mair, Victor H., <bla> 1994

(Look he's even provided annotations to his translations. No doubt *full* of helpful pointers to "PIE did it" conclusions. And I'm sure his translations are very convenient too, to bring it closer to IE-ism - considering how he deals with Chinese words even in this article. But need to read other sections of his article for this.)



"Heavenly Questions" consists entirely of a long series of mysterious and essentially unanswered queries concerning the origin and nature of the universe, the founding of civilisation by various semidivine beings, and the complicated affairs of the rulers of the legendary and historical kingdoms right up to the time of the poet himself.

(Sounds like a lot of heathen oral traditions.)

Most of the questions are of such maddening obscurity that they are extremely difficult to interpret, let alone answer. If, however, we treat "Heavenly Questions" as part of the Indo-European tradition of riddle texts #6, it becomes perfectly intelligible as a well-known type of catechism for imparting wisdom.



The authors of the ancient Vedic hymns, the earliest of which date to roughly the beginning of the first millennium BC #7, were often deliberately cryptic (e.g. R^ig Veda, 1.164). The subject matter of their riddles is, furthermore, virtually the same as that of the "Heavenly Questions" (e.g., Atharva Veda, X 7-8).

(The minute PIE-ists notice and especially the minute they *admit* noticing it, is the minute their appropriation starts, don't you know.)

The UpaniShads, which followed the Vedas, are even more similar to the "Heavenly Questions." The Shvetashvatara UpaniShad #9 begins with a series of comparable questions, and the Prashna UpaniShad (literally, the "UpaniShads [Secret Session] of Questions") consists entirely of all sorts of difficult and profound questions that are put to a R^iShi. Elsewhere in the UpaniShads and in the Braahmnas as well, there are series of questions concerning cosmology and mythology that are quite like the "Heavenly Questions."



In the ancient Iranian Zend-Avesta, doctrine is presented in a series of questions and answers between the prophet Zarathustra (i.e., Zoroaster ["possessing old camels"]) and the creator-deity Ahura Mazda (i.e., O[h]rmazd, Ormuzd ["wise spirit/lord"]). In "Yasna" 44, for example, the questions posed by Zarathustra are astonishingly reminiscent of those in the opening portion of the "Heavenly Questions": "Who is that supported the earth below and the sky above so that they do not fall?" "Who is that joined speed with wind and welkin?" "Who is it that created blessed light and the darkness?" #9 Even at the far northwestern end of hte Indo-European range, the same types of riddles persist in some of the earliest of the poetic Edda. In "Vafthrudnismaal," questions between Gangrath (Wodan) and Wabedrut focus on the origins of heaven and earth. Similar questions abound in "Fioelvinnsmaal," "Alvissmaal," and other songs in the Edda.



In chapter VI ("Playing and Knowing") of his classic Homo Ludens, Johan Huizinga 39 has analyzed such question series as related to cult indoctrination and sacrifices. The tradition of imparting and testing knowledge through a series of riddles is prominent throughout the ancient IE tradition, especially its Indo-Iranian and Germanic branches.

(Usually they say that when they can't find other IE examples.)

The texts consisting of questions cited above (and many others like them) may thus be viewed as vestiges of ancient riddle-solving contests, the participants in which were rewarded or punished (sometimes with their lives), depending on their performance in responding to the questions.

(But uh... didn't the Sphynx pose riddles too? And djinn? And just about every quest involving a hero. Ever. All "borrowed from PIE onlee!"

Yudhisthira being questioned on life-and-death issues by the Yaksha/divine Snake I grant you is like a quick summary of upanishadic questions and answers combined with the threat of death looming (but really, Yudhisthira is the heroic all-wise and divine protagonist, so it's unlikely his life is in any real danger), but I don't remember the Shvetaashvatara upaniShad being like a Russian Roulette involving riddles... cratches head: And still, how is riddle games original to IE? In every ancient story from all over the world, where the hero is posed riddles during his quest, it is seen as a sign of spiritual maturing, a parallel spiritual quest to the physical one he undertakes...

Never mind. I guess PIE placed first dibs on that too.)



The emphasis on cattle in the "Heavenly Questions" also indicates an Indo-European steppe connection.

(I should mention that Mair has this thing about over-emphasising sheep and goats everywhere in Chinese religious texts - which IIRC his critic commented on in the subsequent article discussing this one. Mair then uses his over-emphasis to further extrapolate them as indicating that the influence of nomadic pastoralists aka IE-ists "must" have dominated [Chinese] ethics and even judicial system/law thereby). So I wouldn't be surprised if Mair has over-weighted the alleged emphasis on cattle too.

Also, rather tempted to bring up the issue of genes for A2 milk again concerning Indian and African cows. See #462 and #464)



39 Huizinga, Johan, Homo Ludens: A Study of the Play-Element in Culture, Boston Beacon 1955. tr. from the German ed. of 1944, 105-118.

(O nee, laat 't niet een mof wezen... But German edition could have been translated from Dutch original, I suppose. But in 1944, when nazi Germany had occupied NL?? Must google.)

I will post the relevant part from the subsequent article that critiques the above, but first my own comments.



#1 Is the character Mair refers to as Magi a Daoist Xian, rather than Xian being his name? Xian is supposed to be a Daoist state, IIRC. Also IIRC: people who have attained that Daoist state are supposed to have very great spiritual (special) powers. Like a super-siddha.



#2 Spiritual and tai chi and magical incantation battles are *very* common for ancient and modern Taoist masters by the way. Frequently and well-documented - in great detail - in ancient Daoist texts and oral traditions of temples. And which are learnt first-hand by traditional Daoists who have cultivated their Tao to a high state.



Oh and such things as spiritual and magical incantation battles are also common all the way among - say - Africans and Oceanic heathens... But never mind. PIE will turn its roving green eye there tomorrow. (Wait for it)



BTW, I hate the word "magical" outside of fantasies and fairy tales. It brings on the Evil Eye of Sauron I mean christianism - which spells another type of death for heathens and heathenism.



I've been using "magic" temporarily in this thread. (For dragons it was okay, because I tend to associate dragons mentally with fantasy.) In this case, I however don't want to use words like mantra and tantra either, because the very topic in question is IE encroachment on non-IE, and the fact that Mair et al use Hindu etc religion to encroach on non-IE people means I can't use such words in this specific current context without heavy qualification to distinguish my use from Mair's.



#3 Note how now he has introduced the concept that existential riddles are IE, so that he then finds he can therefore continue on to speak of "the Indo-European quality of such riddles"! That's how he did the whole Wu is magi thing by the way, and some PIE linguististics on how PIE reconstruction for magi (magh or something) is related to the Chinese word "Wu".



#4 "Unusual" <-> "therefore PIE"/"starts making sense in a PIE context" said Mair. Except he admitted the other Daoist text he referred to from the same era - "Zhuang Zi" - concerned profound questions too. But he'd claimed that for PIE-ism too.

Isn't it great? Thousands of years of a population slowly developing their stuff, generating their sacred literature etc, and suddenly a bunch of alien upstarts come around millennia later, write a bunch of articles donating other people's stuff to themselves and this becames the new established truth. A miracle. Of christo proportions.



#5 Earlier in the article Mair declared that Chinese emperors - who tended to be Wu (Emperors were important Daoist ritualists) - were "magi" in the IE sense, and declared that tiny images - of less than 3cm - of Wu characters "clearly" pointed to caucasoid features [translation: "Wu/Chinese emperors were IE!"]. So his statement that the author of the Heavenly Questions/TianWen text "Qu Yuan was a member of the royal family of Chi and a loyal official to two of its rulers" is merely Mair's sneaky 'innocent' way of intimating to alien readers that Qu Yuan was IE/Oryan himself because he was of imperial lineage. => "Hence, ergo and therefore Tian Wen is IE literature"



Just to note: Mair denied that the Wu were shamanists - by a very convenient but unconvincing de-lineation of definition between magical shamans and magical IE magis. (Oracling is common among shamanists, as are exorcisms: IIRC Alaskan natives did it. Sacrifices are common, etc.) Now, among the special things that the Emperors who were Wu did was dancing to make it rain for the nation. I note that native Americans were famous for dancing to make it rain as were Africans. *Well documented, in fact.* But of course, China borders Central-Asia. And so if the Chinese do anything magical at all, it must be PIE Onlee.



Man, heathens just can't win with these people. In this way, the aliens can claim *every* bloody native heathen thing for oryanism. It's an amazing, utterly ingenious appropriating technique. The Single Greatest Invention the "White Man" ever came up with. This passes for actual scholarship, by the way. PIE scholarship is special in that respect. Every bit of speculative drivel is applauded and adored since it is for the greater glory of PIE-ism (oryanism/aka the legitimised form of white supremacism).

Sick.



Also, Mair refuses to refer to the Tianwen lit as Taoist for some [actually predictable] reason, but just calls it "ancient Chinese". The authorship is Daoist. Look, even the following alien source admits it. And instead of screeching "PIE" it moreover mentions the sphynx as comparison (so I'm not the only one who noticed):



ndbooks.com/book/tian-wen-a-chinese-book-of-origins

Tian Wen

A Chinese Book of Origins

Relatively unknown in the West, Tian Wen: A Chinese Book of Origins is a fascinating, though often baffling, archaic collection of 186 "questions" about the origins of life and the meanings of a wide variety of happenings startling and mundane, earthly and celestial. Because the poem has no single narrative thread, the most informed speculation posits group authorship by a number of roving Taoist scholars, each contributing riddles about the history and legends of his own province as well as ironically posed inquiries into the nature of the universe. The enigmatic and sometimes Sphinxlike conundrums may have been originally intended for debate––to give the popular and prominent dialecticians of over 2,300 years ago a tool for honing their convoluted responses. But however the poem took on its present shape and content, it remains the single most comprehensive catalogue of ancient Chinese mythology and pre-Imperial legend in existence.

Apparently there are "basic Chinese myths alluded to in the questions." Next these will all be transmogrified into being "PIE myths onlee".



#6 "the Indo-European tradition of riddle texts" <= Note invention of new trope as unique IE legacy.

Should have a game to count how many tropes PIE-ists invent in this manner. They *always* do this. So don't make it a drinking game - I'll just have orange juice - you don't want to die of alcohol poisoning.



But I wonder if "riddle texts" were already declared an IE trope before this? Or did Mair just invent it as one when he noticed the Chinese had it, in order to declare that "Since it is PIE 'tradition' - because we say so - the Chinese must have got it by way of IE".



#7 "The authors of the ancient Vedic hymns, the earliest of which date to roughly the beginning of the first millennium BC"

Wow, that's like closer to Yesterday than the earliest part of Rig Veda was last year! Tomorrow it will be moved to my Roman birthday and I can declare that *therefore* I composed the Rig. Woohoo. Make it so! I never shrank from plagiarism where good taste was involved.



#8 Mair alludes to the ancientry of the Shwetashwatara Upanishad by naming it as an example of the Hindu case alongside the Rig and Atharva etc. He essentially mentions the upanishad self-evidently as an example of "IE". Not that its ancientry is in doubt by traditional Hindus, but I note this specifically to remark that ur-Shramanism peddlers as well as all those claiming "Yoga/Sankhya are borrowed into Vedic religion" or are "late developments" or are "distinct from the Hindu Gods" [ShU is where yoga/sankhya etc appear, and IIRC law of karma as well as release from samsaara is tied directly back to the Gods in chapter 5], let alone the claim that re-incarnation in Hindu tradition is "late", can go fight it out with Victor Mair and other hardcore PIE-ists. <- They're the last ones to let any bit of Vedic religion be declared unVedic/borrowed. (Which is ironic if you think about it.)



#9 Satirically speaking, one notes that christoislamism starts with all the answers: "In the beginning there was the Void..." (Koran) Followed by "invisible non-existent monogawd did it" type declarations.*



After all, if IE has first dibs on existential and cosmological questions, then the seal of all religion is the religion of the seal of all the prophets, no?

* Of course Hindoo religion in the upaniShads also says that "the Hindoo Supreme Ultimate aka the Hindoo Gods did it" but Hindoos show their working and don't blame invisible non-existent monogawd-s, which makes all the difference. Same goes for all the Other Heathens: they answer their existential questions with "their real Gods did it" too.



So, the very fact that there exist ancient Daoist texts asking cosmological and existential questions (that heathen religions and heathen individuals all over the planet have asked at least in oral traditions, but PIE-ists wouldn't know) is taken by Mair as definitive proof of the text being Oryan else of Oryan influence onlee. (On that note, even much of atheist sci-fi are meditations on strange questions on the nature of reality, memory, knowability, etc. Many of these being written by people who have no knowledge of any heathen religions or of PIE-ism, i.e. conceived independent of the influence.)



[color="#0000FF"]Even Heiner Roetz - another contributor to the compendium that contained Mair's article (and whom Mair thanked for typsetting help) - noticed that questioning the universe in just such a manner, with just such questions is a rather basic human [heathen] pursuit and does not imply PIE.[/color] (But philosophy is exclusively PIE - the oryanists will proclaim - because only their kind is allowed to be deep, profound or clever. Correction, though: philosophy is exclusively Hellenistic, NOT any other heathenism).

In his article written specifically as a comment on Victor H. Mair's piece, Roetz writes what would be obvious to any but PIE-ists (and the same argument should have been made by Roetz for many of the other Mere Claims - and further hyper-speculations based on them - advanced by Mair et al). Perhaps Roetz is merely doing damage control: not wanting all of Mair's claims to be dismissed as nonsense because of the more-obviously extreme claims. In any case, Roetz states about this one:

As to the similarities between the Tianwen and Indian, Iranian and even Scandinavian riddle literature, it remains open whether we are dealing with borrowings from a common (in this case indo-European [sic]) source or with independent phenomena. It is not only possible but to be expected that people from different cultures will ask the same basic questions (Why does the sky not fall down? Who causes light and darkness?, etc.) out of their own experiences, learning processes and wonderment over the world without necessarily being inspired from outside. There are, for example, statements in philosophical Greek and Chinese texts* that sound like they are being copied in one direction or the other. Yet, it is very unlikely that they are, and borrowing is not a necessary assumption in order to explain their appearance.

* Yes, Hellenismos and Daoism (=native Chinese religio) said heavily similar things. But don't worry, tomorrow Mair will work on this too - release a paper on this - where it must all be owing to PIE influence on China onlee. No? Wherever IE insinuates itself there's no such thing as natural human tendencies or individual heathenisms, there can only be borrowing and influence. And uni-directional borrowing (of anything remotely important) from IE to recipients incapable of doing anything remotely meaningful and civilisational themselves (because they're not oryan/white/caucasoid).

[Husky]

Post 4/?



1. PIE is a European technique for encroachment and appropriation of other people's religio-cultural civilisations, especially adjoining ones. And the following statement by Mair vocalises the exact "argument" by which the claim is made - it is the 2nd half of PIEism's credo (the first half affirms PIE and what all constitutes "PIE"/what achievements, what mythological motifs, what religious rituals <- which is practically *everything* of worthy of admiration, btw. Assimilated into PIE-ism one at a time).

If this investigation has shown anything, it is that the diverse early cultures of Eurasia were integrated, not isolated. Neither were the individual cultures of Eurasia isolated from each other, nor were the religions, technologies, arts, and other components that they shared transmitted separately. Cultures are integral packages.* Thus, for example, when late Neolithic pastoralists brought their sheep and goats eastward [color="#800080"][AIT on China, =predicate], [/color]they also brought their sacrificial practices and moral precepts with them [color="#800080"][=unproven conclusion they choose to derive from their predicate][/color]; when early Iron Age metallurgists introduced their new weapons and tools to the EAH, they perforce injected new ideas about war, death, and the cosmologies within which they smelted their iron and fought their battles. 45 [color="#800080"][Because the E Asians can't think up anything, not being Oryan Caucasoids.][/color]

Footnote 45 is of paramount importance, but it will come in a subsequent post.





"They perforce injected new ideas about war, death, and the cosmologies within which they smelted their iron and fought their battles." => Typical jingoism of PIE-ists. Only they fought hard. Only they loved the fight, the weapon, the chase, the thrills, the spills.

Any tendencies to heroism - and indeed any *kultur* of heroism - is uniquely PIE, ya know. So if the Chinese were also first into battle and had war songs, must be Oryan influence onlee. If the Gods of Daoist Heaven are arrayed in their divine armour - though not always, note - this too must be Oryan influence onlee. Yikes. I'm not even going to mention the culture of heroism among various African communities - complete with battle songs, and songs about heroes, and magic songs to strengthen the heroes and king to victory. Sigh.)



Anyway, look how the stuff in the quoteblock is all so innocuously phrased and so reasonable sounding, yet its conclusion is miraculously one-way transfer of religio-culture/civilisation from IE to China. (And note especially how no genetic transfer is claimed, whereas everywhere else they insist that this - along with language transfer - is the lynchpin).





* Translation: if those we call PIEs were present near or in any non-IE area, as happens in the interconnected continental mass known as Asia, then all religio-culture in said non-IE space has come from PIE-ism onlee. PIE did not just wander in as nomadic barbarians - the Chinese considered the C-Asians sliding in from the NW barbarians, BTW (and not cultural innovators) and IIRC Persians also thought the Shakas uncivilised/unArya at any rate despite Shakas being Iranian too - by their mere presence they transferred sheep/goat etc "culture", and "technology", and "therefore" all religio and art must be derived from there tooooo, since "cultures are *integral* packages" - implication being that if animals and possibly tech are transmitted, ideas associated with them must have been transmitted too, so all ideas the Chinese ever had must have been borrowed.



Note the introduction of a new fundamental PIE rule/a very important style of argument they introduce. "Cultures are *integral* packages" <=> "the religions, technologies, arts, and other components that they shared *were not* transmitted separately".



They need this rule to claim that if China can be proved to have borrowed anything at all - say a can-opener - then China borrowed everything else as well. Isn't this a *brilliant* new argument for appropriation?

So all of Chinese religion and art and technology and "other" (as yet unspecified, to be expanded in future to include everything Chinese) are are now owing to the pastoral nomads, whom the Chinese considered barbarians (uncivilised).





But then that Heiner Roetz - who wrote the critical article - shows some faint prickings of his common-sense and conscience again and puts a damper on the PIE party (who invited him anyway? No more invites for you, Roetz). Roetz notes that the reverse of "Galton's argument" holds equally true:

("Galton's problem") can be reversed: one cannot make secure inferences with regard to the existence of transfer unless the respective data is shown to be really genetically related.

Note, this is actually an important point - assuming PIE-ists want to remain consistent with the internal logic/rules they set up. But, of course they don't:



The rules of PIE-ism change when they apply to China because China is not genetically regarded an IE population and doesn't really speak a lingo deemed IE (until Old Sinitic gets reconstructed in a convenient way to declare PIE influenced it :ominous: - they're working on it, I'm not kidding: it's in one of Mair's references to his own publishing mouthpiece). So while PIE-ists are still eager to declare that Chinese civilisation - being so kewl and all - "must be derived" from the white man onlee (since Hamites can't do anything by themselves and only white men are creative <= that is the PIE white supremacist rule that they Will Not State Out Loud, but they scream it in every intention and act of encroachment) - again: while they want to insist that all valuable aspects of Chinese civilisation "must be derived" from IE, in E Asia/China's case they're essentially implying that no [significant] genetic transfer need be necessary. AKA Oryan Influence Theory/They Came, They Saw, They Conquered-or-Shared And Then They Went Away Again /Now You See Them, Now You Don't. Or "From Central Asia to China - There and Back Again." (Note how I slipped in a ref to The Hobbit for no meaningful reason I can think of at all.)



It's a special clause/special pleading rule that PIE-ism has introduced for the Chinese case and for all other E Asians and non-IE people to be stripped of valuables hereafter.

PIE-ists are sophisticated thieves.





Heiner Roetz continues, after warning that (surely)

Victor Mair would agree that one is well advised to avoid a diffusionism that overstates its case.

Such caution seems especially apposite if one looks for influences not only on the level of material goods but also on the level of more complex social phenomena, let alone comprehensive world-views that might have been transported together with the material borrowings.

As to horses and ovicaprids (goats etc), it is most probably uncontroversial that they were brought to China via inner Asia, with a key role played by Iranian peoples.** But does this mean that along with them pastoralist and nomadic "fundamental ethical, moral and esthetic concepts", as the author puts it, were also introduced to China? I do not find corroboration for this far-reaching thesis in Mair's article. It is difficult to see more than an instrumental role for these animals as sacrificial offerings in religious ritual. [...]*

** But then where's the honorary mention for the other C-Asians that China considered equally barbaric: the Mongolians, also a horse culture, and also a source of 'influence' in that respect on China?



* And then Roetz goes on to explain why Mair didn't get - or else didn't represent - the whole claim of "sheep/goats everywhere in Chinese ethics" correct.

While I've left out the long and Chinese-linguistical details (uh, I can barely read the Roman script, I'm going to have to pass on Chinese script), note that Roetz showed this with actual examples - on how goats and sheep were not so overly represented in IIRC Chinese religio and jurisprudence after all, as Mair had claimed they were - (e.g. IIRC Mair had multiplied a single merely-repetitive instance into multiple independent instances instead) and essentially showed that Mair was overly eager (i.e. mistaken) and was speculating beyond evidence (i.e. mistaken).



Of course it is all an innocent mistake. Babble peddlers too, similarly innocently (aka motivated for their cause), read the origin of Chinese language/script - such as especially with the sheep references in Chinese judgments - as referring to the lamb of gawd and thus as pointing to the "Bible Did It". Another miracle. There are so many these days.



See:

- www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/3794-stories-in-the-characters/

- pinyin.info/news/2006/misunderstandings-of-biblical-proportions/



Useful reads for 2 reasons.

The links give an idea of a few of the problems of reconstructing Old Sinitic from its character set. (I may get back to this later.)

The second reason is that these links show that certain other people - not just PIE-ists - also eagerly construe at will the meaning of the presence of sheep in ancient Chinese jurisprudence. If Babble thumpers find that the Chinese characters represent the babble because of the sheepy references, then PIE-ists can declare the babble is IE onlee too, no? Since Mair's whole point was that the pastoral nomadic culture of sheep and goats was so heavily influential on the Chinese that it influenced - or as the PIE-ists really want to say: it created - Chinese law [because the Chinese can't have had laws without the civilising force of IE]. Tragically, Roetz argues Mair's mere insistence away for the Chinese case, but when the babble is so stuck on sheepy/goat religious metaphors too - from OT solomon and scapegoats to NT jeebus the lamb - Mair should rather focus on proving the *babble* is IE. The Chinese case may have fallen through, so why not pursue the biblical one (e.g. sheep + Solomon + law)? No civilisation there for IE to claim, though.



Another statement by Roetz:

What is more important, however, is that it is hard to detect any foreign "pastoral" impact when it comes to the content of the specific ethical theorems which use, among other things, the "caprovine" terms or characters. The usage of "to flock" (qun) as the word for "community" in the passage from Xunzi 9 is no exception. For Xunzi society is something that human beings are capable of forming in distinction from animals. I do not see any parallel between humans and sheep or goats and an indication of a "nomadic lifestyle" that "dominates ethics" in the quoted passage. This remains true also if we take other appearances of yang terminology into account.2

Oh Roetz, how could you! Poor Mair. And poor PIE-ism. It had opened its mouth wide to ingest that part of Chinese religio-culture next, and Roetz snatched it away, unfeelingly.



I'm thinking Roetz is probably in Sinology (which was never part of IE Studies before, since Chinese/China were not in IE purview before) and he's unlikely to have graduated in indology/IE Studies - not many do both - and so Roetz doesn't know that what's expected of him is to just let PIE have its way.

Oh dear, I fear some Sinologists are going to be a problem to the advance of PIE-ism in China. They're just not all of PIE-ist mentality, not being IE Studies people. (IE Studies attracts a certain kind of alien; Asian Studies attracts a different kind of alien. The two only start becoming identical at the point where PIE-ism is poised to swallow E Asia into PIE-ism, as has been happening now.)



Heiner Roetz ends his critique on this matter with reference to Mair's leaping to drastic conclusions above (I wonder why no one bothered to put a sock in Mair at the very start):

China's links with her neighbors may well have been far more intimate, long lasting and important than has often been acknowledged. It is another matter, however, to make plausible that and how "pastoral" culture has in fact dominated a "core segment of the Sinitic value system". [= reference to Chinese religion and law] To corroborate this thesis would require more evidence. (More evidence? Where did Mair give any *actual* evidence and not mere speculation and massaging of data?)

I am quoting selectively - since commenting on everything would make these posts even longer - despite there being much stuff I'd like to complain and remark about concerning the rest of Mair's article and Roetz' response article.

[Husky]

Post 5/?



2. So now to the all important footnote 45.



First the body of Mair's text again which references it:

If this investigation has shown anything, it is that the diverse early cultures of Eurasia were integrated, not isolated. Neither were the individual cultures of Eurasia isolated from each other, nor were the religions, technologies, arts, and other components that they shared transmitted separately. Cultures are integral packages. Thus, for example, when late Neolithic pastoralists brought their sheep and goats eastward, they also brought their sacrificial practices and moral precepts with them; when early Iron Age metallurgists introduced their new weapons and tools to the EAH, they perforce injected new ideas about war, death, and the cosmologies within which they smelted their iron and fought their battles. 45

Footnote 45 of course applies the herewith (above) introduced PIE predicate of Cultures Are Integral Packages to make the following predicate:

"new weapons were introduced into EAH by the All-Creative earthly gods, the IEs" -> "therefore all clever Asian literature about war tactics and stratagems are actually IE onlee/IE in origin/in derivation or at least in inspiration or at the *very* least it would not exist without IE impetus" [because the Chinese "obviously" needed IE help every step of the way to build the IE civilisation that the Chinese got credited with]



That sentence again: [color="#0000FF"]footnote 45[/color] of course uses the newly vocalised PIE predicate (but one which was always in white supremacists' minds, Mair merely made it sound scholarly/acceptable to scholars) to claim Sun Tzu's Art of War for PIE-ism.

(They are after *every* thing of value that E Asians have ever produced - starting with the Chinese - you may be certain of that.)



Note how Mair refers to his own work again - the work where he no doubt traces Sun Tzu (aka Sun Zi/Sun Wu <- also author of a mathematical treatise, BTW, to be claimed next) to Indo-Europodism via - ya guessed it - Linguishticks insinuated into Chinese space now (again: you didn't think it was all about you, did ya?)

45 Mair, Victor H. (tr. and intro.), The Art of War: Sun Zi's Military Methods, Columbia: Columbia University Press 2007a, 37-46; Chang, Tsung-tung "Indo-European Vocabulary in Old Chinese: A New Thesis on the Emergence of Chinese Language and Civilization in the Late Neolithic Age", in: Sino-Platonic Papers 7 (January) (1988), 35-39; Eliade, Mircea, The Forge and the Crucible, Stephen Corrin, tr. from the French Forgerons et alchimistes, New York: Harper and Row 1971; 2nd ed., University of Chicago Press, 1978.

Important to note is the background of that 'publication' called "Sino-Platonic Papers" - the one with the paper whose title implied Chinese Language and Civilisation originated owing to IE influence - linguistics to the rescue again. And we see that its editor is none other than Victor Mair:

SINO-PLATONIC PAPERS

FOUNDED 1986

Editor-in-Chief

VICTOR H. MAIR



Associate Editors

PAULA ROBERTS MARK SWOFFORD



SINO-PLATONIC PAPERS is an occasional series dedicated to making available to specialists and the interested public the results of research that, because of its unconventional or controversial nature, might otherwise go unpublished. The editor-in-chief actively encourages younger, not yet well established, scholars and independent authors to submit manuscripts for consideration.

Contributions in any of the major scholarly languages of the world, including romanized modern standard Mandarin (MSM) and Japanese, are acceptable. In special circumstances, papers written in one of the Sinitic topolects (fangyan) may be considered for publication.



Although the chief focus of Sino-Platonic Papers is on the intercultural relations of China with other peoples, challenging and creative studies on a wide variety of philological subjects will be entertained. This series is not the place for safe, sober, and stodgy presentations. Sino- Platonic Papers prefers lively work that, while taking reasonable risks to advance the field, capitalizes on brilliant new insights into the development of civilization.

That final line should end with "brilliant new insights into the IE impetus behind the development of Chinese (and preferrably all E Asian) civilization". But Mair is polite and does not want to tell you that he already has the conclusion ready that he and his team are working towards.

At least he admits his "research" is uh... controversial - to put it mildly (but tomorrow it will become received wisdom). And clearly he set up the publication because no one else was willing to publish those of his/like-minded's conclusions he put therein.



BTW, the name of Mair's publication "Sino-Platonic Papers" is very telling. IE-ists would be working on laying the groundwork to use Hellenismos - particularly Greek Philosophy - to claim Daoist religious-thought as an IE-derivative: nothing in native Chinese heathenism will be allowed to be natively Chinese, everything must be derived from the mythical (concocted) IE-ism onlee, to support the white supremacist belief that 'civilisation' (from religio to law to education) in itself is a white/oryan thing that is derived in others by borrowing from IE/by Indo-Europods graciously teaching "lesser" peoples (civilising the savages).



On the topic of Chinese script/language.

In a footnote - on a different topic which I may discuss some other time, though one where he reconstructs old Chinese "Wu" to point to the [PIE word for] magi (but of course) and which linguistic reconstruction Roetz accepted as "provisional, as it can only be" - Mair writes something rather telling:

It should be noted that the reconstruction of Old Sinitic is still at a very primitive stage compared to that of Proto-Indo-European. In any event, no Old Sinitic reconstructions should be taken as giving actual pronunciation values for particular characters. Rather, they should be understood as schematic representations of phonological relationships within an overall system of writing.

I should say beforehand that I know very little about the Chinese script and the ideograms it uses. The following is as far as I can understand:



- Each character tends to generally make the sound of a single syllable.



- The same written symbol when read by people speaking different dialects is pronounced as very different words, but carries the same meaning to them (same meaning in their language). How to explain. Say an image of Murugan's ayudham was a reading-symbol that represented a word. The Skt speaker may read it "Shakti", and the Tzh speaker may read it as "Vel". Same meaning - which both people got - but totally different words (not just different pronunciation of the same intended sounds).



- The symbols representing a word (which can be a concrete or abstract notion) changed over time. So some words today were written with very different-looking symbols in the past.



- The same symbol can represent multiple different words. (E.g. this could be because the two words sound the same, and so the same symbol was used)



- Some symbols or was it parts of symbols represent actual sounds, others represent ideas.



- There appear to be a large number of deprecated ancient Chinese symbols: a *huge* chunk of Unicode's supplementary plane has specifically been reserved for Han ideograms that are "rare, historic". Of these historically used Chinese symbols, for some of them the meaning is not known, for others the pronunciation is not known, in some cases both are not known (because they were deprecated long ago - perhaps because the word got a new written symbol or because it and its related ideas fell into disuse, etc).



- And: "the reconstruction of Old Sinitic is still at a very primitive stage"



- Taiwan uses the "Chinese Traditional" character set for reading/writing. Owing to the usual communist goal of blacking out people's connection to their past, in China the communist govt had instituted a whole new character set: "Simplified Chinese". (If you ever bought Asian DVDs, you will have noticed both the subtitle options.)

The Chinese govt's goal - as explained by a Taiwanese friend - was specifically so that communist China's Chinese population would no longer to be able to read their historical texts (and hence would be malleable into thinking/believing whatever the communists wanted them to believe about their past. C.f. how Indian communists and christos and DMK have worked hard to wipe out Skt). As a result of this, many Chinese apparently can't read the Traditional Chinese character set. Meanwhile, many aliens however *are* learning it.

China has university depts to keep in touch with their ancient stuffs, but you never know how the wind will blow with communist govts.

Taiwanese fortunately know Chinese Traditional, but they're a relatively small population. And there's never many people in any given population that specialises in "deciphering" ancient texts anyway, especially not when it's a living heathen tradition and when heathens read and understand their ancient texts traditionally (i.e. the correct and heathen way) rather than trying to "decipher" it the way aliens would, let alone noticing how aliens are misreading their stuff and giving new meanings to their symbols (such as for the purpose of springing "PIE did it" type conclusions on you).



(Again, bearing in mind that my understanding of the Chinese script and its history is negligible) Considering factors like those above though, can only guess what a field-day linguistic reconstructionists of the PIE variety are going to have in reconstructing Old Sinitic from written texts. With a bit of wriggling and handwaving and massaging of the primary source (as Mair actually did in his article), they could make it fit (closer) to what they want it to say: to say "PIE did it". Since Old Sinitic's reconstruction is at its more formative stages, they could "form" it to their will.



The only advantages the E Asians seem to have is that 1. the Chinese govt so far does not like Mair types or their PIE-ist direction of "research" into China's history, 2. Chinese of Taiwan and China and other Chinese regions have proper translations of their works (as Hindus had of their works, but aliens waltz all over Hindu views on Hindu works and modern Indians prefer reading alien books explaining Hindooism) and 3. younger generations of Chinese are becoming aware of the problem.



And this last is meaningful because Chinese are less likely to roll over - unlike the way Indians have done:

- India got offered a carrot: it gets to play wannabe Oryans amongst themselves (while being totally ignored by Euro IE-ists). That is, Indians got the deal of "You get to join PIE [as something the Euro IE-ists are stuck with, and albeit as miscegenates]". And some Indians are quite happy with that: e.g. the twitter feed of one Neena Rai reposted tweets by a native Indian highly active on behalf of Kashmiri Hindus and listing cases of ethnic cleansing. His handle was "Proto-Indo-European". <- So can't say it hasn't worked and hasn't sunk in and worked its magic. And this is something that can never be reversed. It's been totally internalised. =Something Indians just have to come to terms with: you can *never* go back. And there's also nowhere to go from here - nothing worthwhile to become hereafter. But you can stop the gangrene from infecting countries that have nothing to do with IE - and remember no one had claimed E Asia civilisation was derived from IE until more recent times, when the jealous demon of PIE-ism looked further east and coveted yet more for itself.

- In contrast to the Indians, the Chinese - and other E Asians hereafter - get very little out of the IE proposition for China*. So far the deal that the Chinese get is the 'choice' to give away everything and not even get phantoms in return: "Chinese civilisation is all IE onlee, not yours in any sense. It's our ancestral accomplishment. Not that of native Chinese." Which in a way is the better deal, because there's no self-delusions about how hollow it is.



(* Unless PIE-ists next come up with the miscegenation trick there as well, or something. Which won't bother western PIE-ists, since they already only tolerate and otherwise ignore Indians' existence as an "IE population" anyway. India is only ever involved - but never mentioned as India - when PIE-ists reference the Vedas and what your ancestors did, but reference all these things as being their [PIE-ists'] own stuff and their own [unmiscegenated] Oryan ancestors. India is not of remote interest for anything you are, or for you as the product of your ancestors. Being mere miscegenates and all. They don't think you're worthy of claiming. Not counting claiming Oryan credits for a pretty Indian face.)



If China ever succumbs to this disease - either by lack of watchfulness, or by collaboration as happened in the Indian case, or for any other reason - it will result in a domino in the east. PIE for the far east spells nothing more than permanent mental colonisation and subjugation to a hierachy with the "white man" at the the top. Their pasts will never be their own again.* Indians have made peace with this in their own case - or are still making it or will soon enough, give or take a few generations. The heathen east is less subvertible: it deserves to remain heathen and untouched. Sigh.



* E Asians have one ace remaining though, and that is themselves: their current achievements and especially creativity cannot be taken away from them. (Just one small example: alien 2-bit "composers" are fiercely, vindictively, embarrassingly jealous at how much better - and effortlessly better - certain E Asian composers are compared to anyone in all of the west, Russia inclusive. And the bitterness really shows: pages and pages of forums venting their jealousy to the point where aliens started getting personal and spewing about E Asia and everything surrounding these composers, all while buying every single album that the impossibly-prolific E Asian composer released. They hate that these people are better - and will threaten plagiarism at a hat - but they can't stop listening to the music. So funny: claims to Oryan Supremacy obviously didn't hold there in practice.



Sadly, if Hindus were to do anything superlatively at all, aliens will pounce and just claim it's owing to the oryan genetic component of your miscegenated ancestry and thereby credit themselves/oryanism with it.)

[Husky]

Post 6/?



This post is on Magical men with their magical chants and rituals. How "uniquely oryan/IE" are they. Or rather: Not.

Just some examples for statements made earlier.





Retreading the following link, since it mentions Holy men with Magical powers who say Magical Chants to sap a dangerous dragon's strength.

And who are these magical men? They're Pacific Islanders. Will try to *make* them IE later on, to save Mair the trouble.



The list of holy magical men chanting incantations is endless. You could find them in countless African narratives.

(But if it happens in China - also non-IE - it must be Oryan onlee, and will be IE-ised tomorrow.)



www.blackdrago.com/fame/kataore.htm

Basic Information

Type/Species: Taniwha

Origin: Maori (Māori) Mythology, New Zealand



About Kataore

Kataore lived in a cave located near Rotorua, in the Tiki-tapu district. Kataore the taniwha was something of a pet to the local chief, Tangaroa-mihi. As Kataore grew, the chief lost control of the taniwha, and Kataore became violent and began to eat travelers. The last human that he managed to devour was Tuhikarapapa, a high-born young maiden who was going to marry Reretoi. [1]



Reretoi, enraged at the loss of his wife to be, gathered people to help him slay the monster. He made certain that some of the [color="#0000FF"]tohunga, which are holy men with magical powers[/color], could help him, for they had the ability to sap the dragon's power. When he had gathered enough men, Reretoi marched with them out to kill Kataore, the green-eyed dragon.



Pitaka, now on his third encounter with dangerous taniwha, came to help slay the dragon. He and some of the warriors grabbed a few fresh nooses and snuck into the dragon's cave. Since [color="#0000FF"]the dragon had become weak and tired from the tohunga's magic chants, [/color]they easily slipped the nooses around the dragon's neck and raced out of the cave. [1]



When the men left the cave, the others began to pull on the ropes, which were now fixed around the dragon's neck. At first, Kataore began to writhe as they pulled him out of the cave, but the ropes only became tighter, and the dragon lost his strength.



With that, the men leaped upon Kataore and slew him. They cooked his heart, and they named that ridge Te Ahi-Manawa. [1]

Look how these adept holy men (tohunga) needed to chant mantras at the dragon (taniwha). As stated before, the conclusion is that this rogue dragon needs to be magical, else the heroes could have slain it without help of the tohunga.



"Tomorrow" the beady-eyed PIE-ists will realise that next they need to claim all of the Pacific too, else this sort of "magical" behaviour isn't uniquely PIE anymore. :Oh-Woe: Can't have that now, can we?

So the PIE-ists will twist the fact that the Pacific and Americas* were populated from Asia to argue that "therefore" IE - "having influenced E Asia (and southern Asia=India)" - IE thus also indirectly influenced the Pacific when this got populated. (Except that the time ranges don't match, but never mind.) And then PIE-ism will declare that all magical-ness is therefore still "PIE QED".





Except (<- that word again) that

- *the Americas were peopled at a point in time long before PIE-ists can allege IE-ism must take credit for magical chants - and oracling, rain dancing, exorcisms, etc - there. I'm sure that won't detain PIE-ists though: they will eventually come up with some convoluted theory of ancient constant contact between IE-(influenced) populations in Asia and the ancient Americas, and one-way traffic of ideas from Asia to Americas via the Pacific Ocean.

Unless of course, PIE-ists want to skip past calling in Leif Erikson and resort in great desperattion to blowing life into the more recent but unpopular Pict Theory to declare that IE transferred these things to North America's native Americans from W-Europe via the Atlantic Ocean much later.

(The Pict Theory in brief again: Alleged European "discovery" of Americas by "IE" Picts before Leif Erikson, the Viking. IIRC Picts were chased/harried/ethnically cleansed from continental western Europe to British Isles and ultimately to extinction as a distinct population first by the Celts and then by Romans and possibly Angles and/or Saxons too somewhere in there. The "Picts Discovered America" theory - which still hasn't caught on, since Leif is still credited with being the first European to 'discover' the US - is that some Picts may have got chased west so often, they went all the way west into America. Anything's possible. But to prove that native Americans got their magical-ness from IE, PIE-ists will still need to provide evidence of transfer of these ideas.)



- Sub-Saharan Africa had magical chants for healing, for in battle, for abhicharam, for invocation and sacrifice, oracling, dancing for various magical purposes including rain dancing*, and just about Everything. And Africa had all this from Ur-Oer-history. But I forget, nobody ever credits Africa with anything. (Personally I'd like to know what - among religious practices and views/ideas that are familiar to heathens elsewhere - Africans didn't have. Beats me.)

And there are ancient African communities that had a whole culture surrounding their cattle. Come to think of it, they were nomadic pastoralists too. With domesticated cows. Whose milk the humans drank. (What's that African community that pricks their cows to let a drop of its blood trickle into their milk and then drink it that way? Was it the pygmees? But can't remember.)



* Repeating:

African rain dancing, which colonial missionaries grudgingly documented as having been effective, since converted sheep could not bring back the rain whereas it was still plenty in the regions of the unconverted: after conversion "the rain would not even look at us with one eye" or something - as per the Beeb IIRC. Yes, yes it was. To repeat (but wow, for once I remembered the phrase rather accurately - well, it was poetic and painfully poignant, how was I to forget):



bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/6chapter5.shtml

WHERE'S THE RAIN?

"'We like you as well as if you had been born among us; you are the only white man we can become familiar with (thoaela); but we wish you to give up that everlasting preaching and praying; we cannot become familiar with that at all.



You see we never get rain, while those tribes who never pray as we do obtain abundance.' This was a fact; and we often saw it raining on the hills ten miles off, while it would not even look at us 'even with one eye.'"

Taken from an account of Living with the Bakwain, by Scottish missionary David Livingstone.

=More proof jeebus never existed and that the African heathens' Gods are forever real. Also seen in:

Many communities mixed Muslim or Christian practices with traditional ones. The Wolof, in Senegal, might go to the Mosque to pray for rain. If that failed (as it undoubtedly would, since the monogawd is not just invisible but non-existent as well) they would ask the women to do a rain dance.

One wonders why these improperly converted Senegalese (and all Africans) don't just toss christo-islam and its invisible=non-existent mono-gawd and go back to their Gods.



Anyway, just proves that African Gods are clearly real: they made it rain when propitiated by sacred established ritual. And they only abandoned any Africans when such Africans abandoned them. (Sort of what has happened to every once-heathen population when it gets brainwashed into missionary cults.)

A heathen [population] is nothing without its Gods. A heathen [population] only finds fulfillment and completion when it has grabbed all its ancestral Gods to itself. As a baby orang-utan clings to its mother and thereby becomes secure, but any that may let go and becomes lost and abandoned, dies from depravation.

[Husky]

Actually, instead of my earlier statements about the Chinese script, here are sources with some information about it. (Some of these confirm a few of my earlier claims)



p.7 of unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.0.0/ch12.pdf

Table 12-2. Blocks Containing Han Ideographs

CJK Unified Ideographs Extension : B 20000-2A6DF : Rare, historic

Note that in total, the Unicode Supplementary Ideographic plane has allocated codeblocks for several tens of thousands of "ancient" Han ideographs (symbols) that are stated as having fallen into actual disuse now.



That's a lot of freedom for PIE-ists to make up stuff about.



en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Written_Chinese

[color="#0000FF"]At the inception of written Chinese, spoken Chinese was monosyllabic; that is, Chinese words expressing independent concepts (objects, actions, relations, etc.) were usually one syllable. Each written character corresponded to one monosyllabic word.[38] The spoken language has since become polysyllabic,[39] but because modern polysyllabic words are usually composed of older monosyllabic words, Chinese characters have always been used to represent individual Chinese syllables.[40][/color]



For over two thousand years, the prevailing written standard was a vocabulary and syntax rooted in Chinese as spoken around the time of Confucius (about 500 BC), called Classical Chinese, or 文言文 wényánwén. Over the centuries, Classical Chinese gradually acquired some of its grammar and character senses from the various dialects. This accretion was generally slow and minor; however, by the 20th century, Classical Chinese was distinctly different from any contemporary dialect, and had to be learned separately.[41][42] [color="#0000FF"]Once learned, it was a common medium for communication between people speaking different dialects, many of which were mutually unintelligible by the end of the first millennium CE.[43] A Mandarin speaker might say yī, a Cantonese jat1, and a Hokkien chit, but all three will understand the character 一 "one".[16][/color]



Chinese dialects vary by not only pronunciation, but also, to a lesser extent, vocabulary and grammar.[44] Modern written Chinese, which replaced Classical Chinese as the written standard as an indirect result of the May Fourth Movement of 1919, is not technically bound to any single dialect; however, it most nearly represents the vocabulary and syntax of Mandarin, by far the most widespread Chinese dialect in terms of both geographical area and number of speakers.[45] This version of written Chinese is called Vernacular Chinese, or 白話/白话 báihuà (literally, "plain speech").[46] Despite its ties to the dominant Mandarin dialect, Vernacular Chinese also permits some communication between people of different dialects, limited by the fact that Vernacular Chinese expressions are often ungrammatical or unidiomatic in non-Mandarin dialects. This role may not differ substantially from the role of other linguae francae, such as Latin: For those trained in written Chinese, it serves as a common medium; for those untrained in it, the graphic nature of the characters is in general no aid to common understanding (characters such as "one" notwithstanding).[47] In this regard, Chinese characters may be considered a large and inefficient phonetic script.[48] However, Ghil'ad Zuckermann’s exploration of phono-semantic matching in Standard Chinese concludes that the Chinese writing system is multifunctional, conveying both semantic and phonetic content.[49]



The variation in vocabulary among dialects has also led to the informal use of "dialectal characters", as well as standard characters that are nevertheless considered archaic by today's standards.[50] Cantonese is unique among non-Mandarin regional languages in having a written colloquial standard, used in Hong Kong and overseas, with a large number of unofficial characters for words particular to this dialect.[51] Written colloquial Cantonese has become quite popular in online chat rooms and instant messaging, although for formal written communications Cantonese speakers still normally use Vernacular Chinese.[52] To a lesser degree Hokkien is used in a similar way in Taiwan and elsewhere, although it lacks the level of standardization seen in Cantonese. However, the Ministry of Education of the Republic of China is currently releasing a standard character set for Hokkien, which is to be taught in schools and promoted amongst the general population.[53]

Excerpts from 2 links mentioned earlier and a new one:



1. pinyin.info/news/2006/misunderstandings-of-biblical-proportions/

The important point here is that character came about through the borrowing of a character for a homophonous word. This is common in the history of Chinese characters. Indeed, phonetic elements, though often obscured by the passage of time and changes in language, are more common than any other.

2. chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/3794-stories-in-the-characters/

It [color="#800080"][christo book asserting the bible was behind the origins of Chinese script/language/thought, aka "Biblical Religion Did It"][/color] also tries to do this "etymology" on the modern character forms, which are different from their original forms. For instance the "丿 Pieh" stroke in the character 造 doesn't actually appear in the older forms of the character.

For those with a more general interest in the nature of Chinese writing and its relationship to the language(s), I recommend _The Chinese Language: Fact and Fantasy_, by John DeFrancis, ISBN 0-8248-1068-6. This reinforces very strongly that there is a strong phonetic component to the characters. DeFrancis shows that while only about one-third of the character inventory had phonetic components during the time of the Oracle Bones (Shang Dynasty, 1766-1154 BC), this had grown to include 97 percent of the characters by the 12th century AD. It's also worth noting that the Oracle Bones used only 977 characters. This number grew over time:



Shang Dynasty: 977

2nd Century AD: 9,000-10,000

12th Century AD: 23,000-24,000

18th Century AD: 48,000-49,000

And for now, in case you haven't heard of them before or don't recollect what they refer to, just remember the terms Oracle Bones and Shang Dynasty - which is the 2nd formative dynasty as per Chinese' recollection of ancient Chinese history. It is an important part of this whole topic of PIE on China. (As is the 3rd dynasty)

(I hope to paste stuff about it in some future post.)

I found a great number of the proposed etymologies to be far-fetched, as, indeed, Mr. Swanson admits they might seem. To me one of the most blatant examples was the statement that the symbol for fire, which is surely a pictogram of leaping flames, was derived from a glorified man, simply because the two signs are somewhat similar. (But the early forms, as shown, were not.) [I cannot reproduce the list of pictograms that was originally printed with this letter, but the early form for fire looks nothing like a man, it looks more like a bowl with flames rising out of it. -- Ed.]

[...]

Another pictogram, which the book explains as an ideogram, which it is not, is that for clothes. Note the original form. [The original pictogram for clothes looks nothing like the later depiction. -- Ed.]



Another fault of the book is that it often ignores the fact that some Chinese characters are phonetic in nature, so that every single element need not contribute to the meaning



[...]

I do agree that the character for righteousness indicates the time when the sacrifice to make me (see chart) righteous was a sheep or goat. Today, at least in southern China, the pig is the large animal most commonly sacrificed. The pig, or course, is an unclean animal in the Old Testament.

(Roetz already discussed the level of significance of sheep/goat.

Anyway, as seen, it's not just the PIE-ists who choose to read what they want - PIE-ism - into the 'significance' of the sheep/goat in Chinese ethics and law. Babble-peddlers were doing so well before. Both parties conveniently draw the conclusions they want, and both are mutually exclusive: one claims biblical origins, the other IE origins. Well, mutually exclusive unless one equates the two by stating that the babble is PIE-religion :evil-grin: Well, what the babble-thumpers called Japethites, modern PIE-ists call Oryans/IE, so why shouldn't the babble-peddlers have started this trend of interpreting the Chinese script and its origins in similar fashion?)



I must add here, however, that Wilder and Ingram provide an alternate explanation: that I am righteous when I become lamb-like or peaceable rather than belligerent. [3}

[color="#800080"](Yes, and the PIE-ists provide their own explanation: that it was all owing to PIE kultur.)[/color]



[color="#800080"](Then the writer of the above statements ended with this sane observation[/color]



Of course, it's [color="#0000FF"]interesting that only the Chinese knew as far back as the 18th century BC that Jesus was going to be sacrificed[/color] -- which is the whole point of this little exercise.

[color="#800080"](Christians are so hysterical. About as hysterical as the PIE-ists. And about as deadly to heathenism too.)[/color]

3. pinyin.info/readings/texts/visible/index.html

Chinese

From Visible Speech: The Diverse Oneness of Writing Systems by John DeFrancis, © 1989 by the University of Hawai`i Press. Used by permission of the University of Hawai`i Press.



In contrast to Sumerian writing, whose history can be traced to its very beginning, the origins of Chinese writing are obscure and much debated. The earliest form known to us dates from the Shang dynasty (1200-1045 b.c.). By that time the script was already a highly developed system based on principles which have continued to characterize the system to the present.

(From that mystery developed the need to solve it by speculation: PIE saw an opening and wanted to insinuate itself as the solution to the mystery. But that's not the point of this post.)



A major point of contention is, How did the idea of writing come into the minds of the Chinese? There are two opposing views of the matter based on different explanations for the emergence of civilized societies and the existence of specific elements of culture, including writing. One approach stresses "independent invention," the other "stimulus diffusion."



Chinese scholars tend to espouse the first approach. In support of this view a number of writers have attempted to push Chinese writing back before Sumerian by claiming a connection between some symbols of Shang date and those inscribed on pottery several millennia earlier (Chang 1983; Cheung 1983). However, as noted in the previous criticism of scholars who see a connection between Easter Island symbols and those of the Indus Valley, it is methodologically unacceptable to advance as evidence miscellaneous instances of similarity among the necessarily limited number of scratchings that can be made using only two or three lines. There is involved here is a sort of chauvinistic scholarship that seeks to prove an independent invention for Chinese writing by methodologically suspect means.



Exponents of the "stimulus diffusion" approach sometimes use the same dubious methodology to claim that some of the symbols found in China have been copied from earlier ones found in the Near East. Most diffusionists advance a broader and more general argument based on the amount and quality of correspondence between civilizations. They argue that while some simple aspects of culture, such as stone knives and drawings of familiar things, may have been independently invented by various peoples, more complicated ones like writing must have had a single origin. In support of this thesis, diffusionists cite evidence of borrowing of some other specific cultural items to prove the borrowing of the idea of writing. Thus the prominent Near Eastern scholar Cyrus H. Gordon states that "China heard about casting bronze from the West; and what impelled China to invent her own system of writing was diffusion of the idea from the Near East" (Gordon 1971:16).



But here too the methodology is open to question. The borrowing of one item-if it really is a case of borrowing-does not necessarily prove the borrowing of another, though to be sure evidence of extensive borrowing is suggestive. Conversely, when instances of alleged influence are shown to be based on dubious scholarship, this saps confidence in the whole approach. Gordon 's overall case for stimulus diffusion is hardly helped by his advancing the claim that "Chinese in pigtails" (actually found only in the Manchu period, from 1644 to 1911) "are portrayed unmistakably in the art in pre-Columbian Middle America" (Gordon 1971:171).



My own view of the matter is that the arguments for both approaches are seriously flawed and that at present there is simply not enough evidence to provide convincing proof for either claim about the origin of Shang writing. (But that won't stop the speculators, let alone those on fire for PIE to claim it all.) However, while keeping an open mind on the matter, I feel that the burden of proof rests with the diffusionists. I therefore incline toward the belief that the Chinese independently invented writing, not because there is any proof for this, but chiefly because I believe that human beings are sufficiently inventive to have come up with the same idea more than just once.



Moreover, it seems to me that while some of the principles underlying Chinese writing are in fact similar to those underlying Sumerian writing, in all probability the reason for this is not that one was influenced by the other. The distances in time and space, unlike the Sumerian-Egyptian and Phoenician-Greek situations (discussed in chapters 4 and 5, respectively), militate against such a hypothesis. A more reasonable explanation is that the two peoples independently thought up somewhat similar solutions to somewhat similar problems. It is underlying principles, not the superficial outward form of symbols, that should occupy most of our attention.



In approaching an analysis of the Chinese script we encounter quite a different problem from that of Sumerian. In the case of Sumerian, the language represented by the writing was completely unknown and had to be reconstructed from scratch, in part with the help of information provided by peoples such as the Babylonians and Assyrians, who took over both the language and the writing system, applied the latter to their own language, and developed bilingual texts of various kinds. In the case of the Chinese, there is continuity, with gaps that can at least partially be filled in, between the earliest extant writing and that of the present day. And given the considerable amount of archaeological work going on in China and the exciting finds that have been made in recent years, there is hope of being able to fill in more gaps. Chief among these gaps is the huge void that must have contained an earlier stage of writing before the full-grown system emerged on the scene during the Shang dynasty.



(PIE-ists will fill that void with PIE-ism as the source. Because PIE-ists claim that the first Chinese dynasty is a "myth". That's what they had been claiming of the Shang dynasty until these were proven to exist, at which point PIE turned it's greedy gaze to encroaching on the Shang dynasty and to thereby also present PIE as being influential in all that followed in China's history. I.e. that PIE was the impetus behind and the source of Chinese civilisation.

But Shang dynasty and the Oracle Bones will be brought up later.)

[...]

[Husky]

^ Still need to post some more related to that. Sigh.





1. However, this next is [color="#0000FF"]related to topic of posts 421/422[/color] at the top of this page.

The walls of this valley, 2,700 metres above sea level, are brimming with the remains of ancient sea creatures. Marine fossils have been found right across the [color="#0000FF"]Himalaya[/color], including right at the top of Mt Everest. It is astonishing to think that rocks that started out at the bottom of the Tethys Ocean are now the roof of the world.



When India collided with Eurasia, the ocean floor at the margins of the Tethys was thrust upwards, forming an immense barrier across the continent. And it is by creating that barrier that the Tethys has had a profound effect on the course of human history. And still does to this day. [color="#0000FF"]Because mountains this high can't help but interfere with the climate.



(THUNDER RUMBLES in background)

That is one angry sky up there, isn't it? **



That's the thing about mountains. They create their own weather in them. The bigger they are, the bigger the weather they create. Somewhere behind that cloud and mist is the Himalayas, the biggest [mountains] on the planet. So it's no real surprise then, that it produces one of the most important weather systems on the planet: the monsoon.

(THUNDER RUMBLES in background)

(WIND AND RAIN starts pouring down heavily)



The winds that bring the moist air rise up along these slopes and just dump rain and snow on those hills and you get these brutal downpours like these, that kind of running up to the wet season that dump water in the gorges and the rivers up there, creates mudslides and landslides that chuck it down, chuck material. If you can just see, there's a river down there that's flooded, that's just full of mud and dirt that's been taken out of that mountain range. This is one of the most dynamic active environments in the world. And also one of the wettest.



(THUNDER, RAIN DOWNPOUR, more THUNDER - ongoing in background)



These sediment-laden waters flow down from the mountains and out onto the plains of India, Pakistan and China. And combined with the monsoon rains, water and nutrient-rich soils from the Himalayas support 3 billion people. Nearly half the world's population.[/color]



But the formation of Eurasia has had a much wider impact on civilisation, because India's collision was only the beginning of the end for the Tethys: Arabia also moved north, creating the Zagros and Taurus mountains that run through Iran and Turkey. Italy and Greece collided with northern Europe building the Alps, and completing a mountain chain that spans the entire length of Eurasia and marks the final resting place of the once great Tethys Ocean.



(ROTH-4-40)

From the above:

That is one angry sky up there, isn't it?

I.e. the thundering over the Himalayas sounds "angry" to the geologist. C.f. how to others - I speak of the Hindoos - it sounded like some really heavy battle is going on (i.e. between Bhagavaan Indran and the water-hogging Vritra perched on the mountains and who had made the sky go dark by drinking up all the waters while the land thirsted). Then after the thunder - owing to the weather created by the Himalayas - the rains were released: India's monsoon, again due to the sheer massive size of the Himaalayas influencing weather drastically.



IIRC another source mentioned that the formation of the Himaalayas - caused by the subduction of the Tethys ocean-plate which pulled the Indian landmass in and caused it to collide with the rest of Asia - which mountain formation directly caused the massive monsoons, meant that Africa got far less rain (Himalayas hogged rain and largely confined it to the surrounding region) and led to or at least contributed to much heavy greenery disappearing in Africa. Much of the water on the planet is recycled - i.e. it's an internal cycle maintained on our planet with the help of the atmosphere which is owing to our planet's gravity, but some water has come in - at least in the earth's history - from the usual space debris.



(Further, winds sweeping westward over Africa lift up its heavily nutrient-rich soil, drive this over the Atlantic, and deposit it over S America particularly the Amazon making its soil very nutrient-rich and directly causing its teeming life there. Climate systems are amazing, especially that of our planet :bias



2. Summarised from 2 different sources:

On a sort of related matter, but more concerned with the topic of dragons/sea serpents that cause flooding, is this next subjective description - also by a scientist - of another natural event. Paraphrased from memory. The event concerns the melting of the huge glacial lake of Missoula that had kept its waters back in North America some 16,000 years ago or so (sorry, dates are another thing that expire from my brain). So when this really huge glacial lake melted, it caused massive, massive flooding of a scale I think we'd consider unprecedented. All this flooding happened within 48 hours to about a week. It carved out some famous rocky faces in the N American landscape.

The scientist working in this field and discussing the sheer cataclysmic scope of the sudden flooding caused by the ice melting and releasing the waters of the lake, at one point described that it IIRC would have been like a "sea monster". (I might perhaps try to get a verbatim quote for this in future.)





Now, both the "angry" thunderstorm description in point 1 above, and the description of the massive flooding being like some "sea monster" in 2, were by modern scientists. They were both attributing some 'life' to lifeless natural phenomena in order to draw analogies/be expressive. The point being: no need to impute "ur-shared-human mythology" OR the much-later PIE-ism to what can most easily be simply independent cases (independent examples of how the human mind works when faced with natural phenomena, and a common tendency in human minds to somehow describe such things anthropomorphically or imbue them with some 'life' as it were)...

Again -

The point being: no need to impute "ur-shared-human mythology" OR the much-later PIE-ism to what can most easily be simply independent cases, especially when such cases are only superficially 'similar', like Susano-o vs Orochi's case is to anything in IE-ism, and whereas other cases are at least as - if not more - 'similar', e.g. the instance provided among the native Americans in an earlier post and repeated in #421.

[Husky]

Will take a long time to get to the point. The point is the material in the main quoteblock of this post (and its link).





Many months ago, indiafacts had an article about the islamaniac terrorism of one "Shahi Imam Barkati". It had a picture of the man: a brown individual with not just bright red hair but also curly bright red beard.



www.indiafacts.co.in/can-shahi-imam-n-r-barkati-tried-waging-war-india/



Since such bright red facial growth (especially the beard) does not at all suit such and darker skintones, I was forced to conclude that - unless he had 0 sense of aesthetics - he had not voluntarily coloured his hair AND beard. Also the fact that anyone would want to colour their beard red seemed to militate against the possibility. The option that remained was that he was born that way.



Can also search the web for Imam Barkati and look at the Images page to see more photos of the man with the tackily bright red beard.(Honestly, who in their right mind that looks like Barkati would choose to colour their hair red. Isn't it more likely that the tragically ugly dude was simply born that way?)



It had reminded me of a bit-part bollywho actor whose surname I remembered was Khan from the end credits (after seeing him in what was the 3rd and definitely last bollywho film I ever saw): I remembered his surname because I specfically looked him up in the end credits, since his hair was a curiosity. I didn't know any (native) Indian who naturally had red hair.



It was my search to find his full name that led to the material and the reason for this post. To get him out of the way:

His name is Razak Khan who played the "bird seller" - allegedly some comic relief - in "Kuch Naa Kaho". Googling for his pictures shows that he frequently has reddish hair, occasionally reddish brown. Not as brightly red as the Imam, but it may still be this Khan's real hair colour.





Coincidentally, if either Razak Khan or Barkati naturally has red hair rather than having coloured it, this then goes against the claim on an earlier-mentioned European genetics site which featured heavy discussion in the aftermath of the news on the genetically-Scandinavian Stone-Age European who had subsaharan African-skin colour yet blue eyes.

(Obviously European-origin) commenters at that Euro genetics site were arguing for the unlikelihood of an African skintone being found in combination with blue eyes - their point was that there must be an error in interpreting the genetic data of the Stone Age European's skintone being African - IIRC using as argument that red hair and fair skin seemed to always go together.



Obviously the Shahi Imam - see picture at the aforementioned indiafacts link - being rather brown-skinned yet with red hair and red beard, is an example for the countercase: that red hair need not imply fair skin.



In searching for the actor Khan's full name, my suspicions that such hair colour could perhaps be due to Mongolian input got confirmed. Not only because Razak Khan has the surname Khan, which is obviously exclusively a Mongolian surname (being in fact a kaffiri shamanistic surname), but when I searched the web hoping to find the actor's name using the terms "red hair" and "Khan" an ... unexpected avalanche was the result. (As it happened, I had to resort to searching imdb for the film title to therewith find the actor's name.)



When doing the web search, all the visible results I could find for the search terms "red hair" and "Khan" were about Genghis Khan, and how Genghis Khan was to have had red hair and light eyes (IIRC, green or blue or grey, depending on which historical account was proffered in evidence). But the search results showed that people were not content with that: sites owned by Europeans were all about how Genghis Khan was actually European and his achievements/his range of power was therefore a European achievement - with as windfall that any Genghis input into the European gene pool (which of course is significant) was no longer a miscegenation of "Caucasian" and "Mongoloid" but was ultimately just (pure) European etc etc.



Even the Turks of Turkey were in on it: Turks, usually said to be Mongolians from Mongolia (and presumably Turkmen too) declared that they were actually Europeans on account of Genghis Khan having red hair, fair skin and light eyes.



[I'm not sure why Turks have to stand on their heads to claim European antecedents for themselves: Turkey's Turkish inhabitants are significantly Greek (and even somewhat Roman), not only in Cyprus - making Turks quite European already - without having to reach out to arguments for Genghis Khan's sudden turn for Caucasian. Moreover, for the rest, Turkey's inhabitants seem to have significantly more Arabic input than even Mongolian - going by phenotype (e.g. occasionally, the curly hair specific to Arabs is seen in Turkish acquaintances). Especially noticeable when comparing Turkey to Afghanistan, where the Mongolian phenotype is not just readily apparent in many Afghans, but present in a rather large proportion of its current population. (Seen also in Afghan movies and in Iranian movies featuring Afghans.) That is to say, at the very least, modern Turkish people seem to exhibit more of the European and secondarily of the Arabian phenotype, while the Mongolian phenotype is seen more readily in Afghanistan than in Turkey, despite Turkey's inhabitants being designated as Turks and linked back to Turkmenistan and Mongolia.]



Understandably, not everyone in the world was ready to roll over and accept this latest attempt to claim anything and everything in history as "White": E Asians had more than a thing or two to say about the matter. Also seen in English-language discussions by Chinese persons like the Singaporeans in the following example:



sammyboy.com/showthread.php?118316-Genghis-Khan-an-Oriental-with-green-eyes-and-red-hair



(A Singaporean forum, as far as I can make out)

24-05-2012, 05:08 AM #1

Mercury

Alfrescian



Genghis Khan an Oriental with green eyes and red hair



There was an very old thread and this white psycho claimed Mongol and Genghis Khan was white and European, please do not listen to these crazy white supremacists lies. European scientists even showed the paternal descendants of Genghis Khan haplogroup DNA is C3 which is an Tungustic marker. The Mongolians seem to be genetically Asian (at least 81-93%), their european admixture came from white females of Central Asia not Europe. Their DNA did not come from European of Europe but rather from the white females of Central Asia like Tocharians and other Central Asians. They were ruled by the Mongoloid of East Asia for 500 years. The Khitans, Tibetans, Han dynasty, Tang dynasty, and many Han kingdoms have ruled and controlled the Tocharians and white iranic people for 500 years. So there has been lots of Intermarriage in Central Asia and even in western Mongolia ( <---used to belong to Kazakhstan). He even claimed that white build Chinese civilization and the great wall of China yet these buffoons don't even know that East Turkistan is so damn far away from the real heartland of China Chinese civilization. The skeletons of the Shang dynasty reveal were all Mongoloids and like modern Chinese and Sino-Tibetan.



The Kazakhs and Hazara today are the result of Mongolian Men and White iranic women. mtDNA reveals Kazakhs have 41% european mtDNA and 82% Mongoloid Y-DNA. Hazara have 65% European mtDNA with 52% Mongoloid Y-DNA. And Mongolian themselves have 14.3% European mtDNA with 6% Caucasian Y-DNA. Uzbeks, Kyrgyz Uyghurs are mostly Caucasian iranic men and Siberian females. The Crimean tatars have about 20% Mongoloid Y-DNA and 100% West Eurasian mtDNA.

The above post - on the linked "sammyboy.com" forum - is then followed with images of fair (in terms of hair, eye, skin) Mongolians, demonstrating that "Mongoloid" features co-exist with "Caucasoid" features in native Mongolians, and that therefore Genghis Khan and his men (etc) could easily have been red-haired and light-eyed *without* having to be lumped as Europeans.



There is also further discussion on the subject with others commenting in response etc.





[The statement about Shang dynasty skeletons that's highlighted in bold in the quoteblock above - and which is one of the reasons for this post - is relevant for the "AIT on China", since Mair and other such oryanists were trying to claim China's Shang dynasty as Oryan using their typical oryanist mangling of Chinese texts and artefacts, in order to claim that the origins of Chinese civilisation were owing to oryans and not the Chinese. But IIRC, after it turned out from hard sciences that the Shang dynasty were simply ethnically Chinese, the Oryanists resorted to saying that then only the Shang dynasty Kings and their priests would have been Oryan. I.e. all those most influential in constructing Chinese religion=civilisation including law etc were now claimed for Oryanism by the oryanists. The oryanists thereby tried to have their cake and eat it too: admitting that the masses of the Shang dynasty may have been Chinese, but that the creators and guiders of its civilisation and the composers of its religious materials were immigrant or imported Oryans. <- Compare with the Indian case of oryan argumentation: how - when the Oryanists no longer had data for largescale invasion or even any noticeable/definite "Oryan" genetic input into India that couldn't equally be argued away in reverse - the Oryanists (embarrassingly for them) decided to go back on their earlier edifice of argumentation by suddenly and desperately reasoning that now only the Oryan language must have been transferred to India but without the genes. This despite Oryanists' own earlier contention - back then made to support their larger argument, that the AIT on India must hold - that Oryan languages *could not* have been transferred to India without genetic transfer.]





ADDED:

About the Singaporean's reference - in the quoteblock above - to "white" Iranians:

Poor Iranians. Since when are they "white"? Not considering Iranic tribes outside Iran or India**, but many of the last few remaining pure Zoroastrians in Iran are still browner than all the mixed (muslim) Iranians in Iran*. Even the fair ones I've seen in pictures won't be mistaken for "white" by Europeans. But I suppose Asian populations who are dubbed "IE" getting lumped with "white" by far eastern Asians is an unavoidable fallout from oryanism.*** Then again, Iranians (incl in India) are even more Oryanism-Ra-Ra than Indians are. If you bought (into) it, it's yours.



*** Since the attempt to directly insinuate western populations as originating Chinese civilisation - such as by means of continental Celts - has failed, oryanism has had to resort to using ancient Central-Asian-Iranians and ancient Indians to claim Chinese civilisation as an oryan/"white" achievement. (Though of course E Asians are at the fairer end of the spectrum by far than ethnic Indians. So at least Indians are unlikely to be confused as "white" by E Asians any time soon.)



* Muslim Iranians don't count on the topic of what Iranians originally looked like, since islamised Iranians are heavily mixed: lots of Russian and other Southern European women were kidnapped into islamic harems, plus there were lots of Mamluks too (white slaves).



** As for non-Zoroastrian Iranians from outside Iran or Persia, I know of one Tajik example that was crowned Miss England a decade or so back. Her ancestry was a community of Tajikis settled in Afghanistan, i.e. not Afghan herself, and she looked Indian/Iranian-brown. Again, not "white" either. Which was why she was chosen: since the Miss contests were favouring "Indian" looks for a whole decade since about the mid-90s, every western country was sending Iranians or Indians. Even Ireland sent a half-Indian half-Irish woman as Miss Ireland at one point. Though Miss Tajikistan I mean the Tajiki Miss England doesn't count for much as an argument, being but one example of a Tajik, however I distinctly remember mistaking her for an Indian at first.



Here, her name is "Hammasa Kohistani":



viola.bz/hammasa-kohistani/

Kohistani is of Tajik Persian ethnic background, she speaks six languages, including Russian, English, Persian

(I suppose the specific mention of her being a Persian Tajik is to distinguish the Iranian kind from the smaller number of Russian Tajiks.)

The above is a caption to a picture of the Tajiki Persian Hammasa standing next to a European man, presumably a Brit. The comparison makes it clearer still: she's clearly not "white", and her shade is moreover distinctly brown. Certainly looks like every bollywho actress from the mid-90s on. More Indian-looking than many a prominent Paki muslimah - if I'm allowed to say that on an Indian forum: most Paki muslimahs that Indian politicians were said to drool over (or that Karyakarta from the Rajeev2004 blog regularly pointed out as his Paki idols) look at least partially Arabic, like they were MBC-rejects (Middle-East Broadcasting Corporation). Anyway, the particular examples given always made me think that Indians would appreciate MBC: the Arabic channel had pretty female newsreaders back in the mid 90s when I used to tune in - back when the Arabic muslimahs on TV were never veiled, don't know how it is now on MBC. The men on there were a disappointment though.

[Husky]

Post 1/2



Related to posts 426, 428-431 (433) above



Recollecting stuff seen some days back on wackypedia (am interested in trends of Wackypedia's use as a medium for rewriting history especially heathenism and backprojecting fictions). The links in this post are what's relevant, the rest is just comments.





Had found this page:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuism



Note Wu as in powerful heathen of ancient Chinese religion (called Taoism today).

Posts 426 or 428-431 discussed that oryanist Victor Mair wanted to steal Wu-ism from Chinese religion and gift it to his own Euro-ancestors. He and those of the same school are famous for declaring that Taoism (native Chinese religion's name in the present day) is not Wuism - not a natural progression to the present day - but that Wuism was a Euro-derived oryan religion, and that Taoism merely stole stuff from it in miscegenated fashion.

*Exactly the same way oryanists claim that the Hindu religion of the present-day is not a natural progression (directly/naturally derived) or rather continuation from the ancient form of Vedic religion, but that Hindus' religion is a miscegenated late copy by miscegenated Indians of the original pure Oryan/Euro "Vedism/Vedik religion".





Now, to get back to the link:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuism



1. I suspected that the page could not have been created by traditional Chinese, because they do not recognise Wuism as a separate religion, but regard it as their ancestral religion that continues to this day. (The powerful Wu heathen characters of many old Chinese movies set in ancient times may be familiar to people.)



2. The suspicions grew when there is indeed a reference to Mair donating the Wu word - its origins - to oryanism, and thereby donating the Wu religion and all that derives from it to oryanism. (The way that Sanskrit got donated to aliens and hence the Vedas and all Vedic religion and the civilisation derived from it get donated to oryanism as its oryanism's genius.)



3. Naturally, I figured that it was an oryanist that must be behind the page, since most Chinese are utterly unfamiliar with Mair and the few that may be would not be visiting wackypedia for information let alone to propagate oryan fictions.



4. I further figured that the page came to exist for one purpose alone: for advancing the oryan claims to Chinese civilisations' origins and for *popularising* these. Since wackypedia is the means by which all kinds of nonsense/filth gets popularised, particularly oryanisms - sandwiched as the nonsense is among simple facts like maths and other sciences.



5. So I clicked on the wacky page's History:



en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wuism&action=history



- The page was created some time in March or so this year, 2014. (The date is interesting.)

- The page was created and its contents heavily populated by one "Aethelwolf_Emsworth" - of old-English appellation (who has a name like Aethelwolf these days? Aethelred the Unready was like from the era of Viking invasions into Brittany. Aethelwolf Emsworth is obviously a pseudonym of someone trying to channel a bygone anglo-saxon age; maybe as their hopeful link to oryanism?)

- Specifically, the reference to Mair - and the entire section discussing the religious word "Wu" and culminating in donating it to IE (currently via speculations/references to Mair, embedded among other speculations) - was similarly the handiwork of Aethelwolf.



6. So I clicked on Aethelred I mean Aethelwolf's name - it does get more interesting/predictable:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Aethelwolf_Emsworth



The page that opens is this user's recent editing history: indicating the sorts of pages he's interested in.



Guessing that the falsely named non-Adel and non-Wolf was of oryanist tendencies, I looked for references to IE/Indo-European in his edit history page:



And indeed, I found links to:

a. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_the_Seven_Rishis





Which links to a page demonstrating the nouveau hobby among Russians - of the wannabe-Hindu/Vedic dabbling tendency: apparently some new-age Russians pretending to have something to do with Hindu religion have built an alien building to Hindus' Seven Rishis/the stars of the big dipper from the Hindu perspective.



The wacky page on the "temple of the seven oryanised rishis" - it's such a short page, UnAethel UnWolf may have created himself - linked to other wiki pages for "further" info, among which was inevitably a link called :drumroll:



VEDISM (of course):



this link led directly to a wacky page that then renames itself to "Historical Vedic Religion" and is all about how the "Historical Vedic Religion" is NOT the same as Hinduism and that Hinduism is a "separate religion" that was to have displaced the Vedic Gods for the Pauranic Gods*. <- I.e. the same arguments that were made by E Europeans (IIRC Ukrainian/Russian vocalist) on beliefnet who had formerly dabbled in Hindu religion (on Hinduism.net) before they decided to launch their own religion called Vedik religion/Vedism/whatever and who similarly referred to Hindu religion as "not the same as Vedic religion, but distinct from it".

Of course, the very wacky page that insists that the "Historic Vedic Religion" is distinct from Hinduism can't help but feature a picture of Tamil Veda-Brahmanas of the present day doing Vedic rituals. Which just undermines wacky's contention.



* Vedicists - i.e. alien dabblers - tend to refer to the religion of the Upanishad portions of the Vedas as separate from the Vedas, and of course the religion of the Puranas are also seen as distinct etc etc. They needed to invent all these non-arguments in order to claim that Hindus had "abandoned" the Vedic religion/Gods and that therefore this allegedly-"abandoned" religion was anyone's for the taking, in particular for the alien oryanist dabblers to hijack (since they long wanted to pretend that it was *their* ancestral religion and not that of the allegedly "miscegenated" Hindus). See the indology thread for more of their thought patterns.



NOTE: all alien dabblers in others' religions - foremost among them are the converts - are *replacement*. They are not peddling replacement theology. They're the opposite: they want to replace the adherents of a native heathenism of other ethnicities with their own dabbling alien selves: i.e. they want to become the new, genuine, original, true adherents of others' ancestral heathenism. Stupid Indians keep inviting these terrorists. Especially E-Europeans are a major pain and famously follow the pattern of poaching on the Vedas and then either leave and join the recently-invented "Vedism" (an oryanism by and for aliens/oryanists) OR else they proceed from their vampirism on the Vedas onto prying open other private practices of Hindus and thereby infecting other areas of Hindu religion. To repeat: a Russian site featured a picture on the main page of a Russian woman doing a "homa" - as only new ageist, unheathen aliens would do - to becoming a site filled with their own audio mangling the Upanishads (elsewhere rejected by Vedicists) to renaming the domain to one with the word Shaivam in it in order to dabble in Tantra practices next (having vampire sucked their way through the Vedas and then its upanishad portions). And that's when I last stopped checking the site. No doubt it has moved on to dabbling in Shaktam. And if Russians are like Americans, these entities will next move on to vampiring on Taoism.



Indians are totally clueless about European dabbling tendencies. E.g. some time back noticed that the Hindu site savetemples.org featured a very old Russian woman who had been inducted into ISKCONism - probably not long ago since ISKCONism is a recent cult. She didn't speak a word of any Indian language but had transported herself to India to encroach upon a cave to Narasimham in AP or TN or somewhere. The article said that she claimed to have had some dream or something where the ISKCONist Christna had asked her to go encroach on I mean move into an IIRC Shri Vaishnava Narasimham cave. (Madhva's dvaitam has little enough to do with ISKCONism as per Madhvas themselves, who claim ISKCON is missionising on their Hindu community, so how in the world would Shri Vaishnavam have anything to do with ISKCON? Why does no one ask this question?) The Savetemples.org article mentioned how the gathered gullible TN/AP Hindus were in awe of this woman's turn for new-ageism I mean ISKCONism I mean alleged "Hinduism" and that they simply went ahead and assumed that the Hindu God Vishnu had actually invited her. Why Vishnu would invite an alien who had recently discovered Hindu religion* and decided to dabble in it, instead of approaching the many millions of life-long devout ethnic Hindoos is another question no one asked themselves.

* which she discovered via ISKCON to boot, where not even their acharya had ever seen Krishna (as per his books of his that I read).



Little do Hindus know that it is a hobby in Russian orthodox christianism for faithfuls to dream that jeebus invited them to go live at an orthodox hermitage/monastery (or go encroach on a pagan site for christ). <= The same self-delusional tendencies got transferred upon conversion to ISKCONism: Europeans tend to be zealous when they convert to any religion - including when they imagine that every religion out there is universal instead of ethnic - so they tend to be prone to imagining others' Gods calling them. (Tomorrow, I predict - I'd lay odds on it - that aliens will start claiming that Taoist Gods called them to do thus and so.)

Some hundred years from now, gullible Hindus would have started worshipping this woman and writing christianising fictions - sorry miracle fictions about how she is miraculous and saintly etc. I wonder if she's presently writing fictions christianising Vishnu at the Narasimha caves: the local Hindus won't figure it out soon, because they're unlikely to understand her Russian.



The Russian woman's story about Vishnu impelling her to encroach on the cave is so utterly different (and sounding very much like transplanted but typically-christian "experiences"/delusions), from actual Hindoo accounts of Hindu Gods communing with Hindoos and prompting them to [do certain things].





b. But back to UnAethel UnWolf, the guy who liked to create wackypedia pages promoting oryanism=Indo-Europeanism. The second link in his editing history that was related to Indo-Europeanism was (again, predictably):



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ynglism



Which is on some neo-pagan aka new-age dabbling group that has invented a religion (Ynglism) basing itself around something called the "Slavic Vedas" (since they don't actually have the Vedas and never did, they had to invent something of similar name and no doubt other plagiarism. Don't try to understand it, it's a mleccha-ism). There's some mention of the Big Dipper on his page too. And apparently this Ynglism is all the rage in Russia (new-ageism/neo-paganism and inventing pseudo-paganisms like wiccanism is a great fetish for christo-conditioned Euros in the European sphere these days). Hopefully they'll get bored soon and deconvert to humanism - though it's far more likely that they'll re-convert to christianism. The one thing these people seem unable to do is return to their own ancestral heathenism, i.e. they're unable to be heathens.



From a cursory glance over the page, the Ynglists seem to be oryanists definitely, but possibly neo-nazis too, as I noticed some mention of "extremism" on the page. I stopped reading. The "Slavic Vedas" nonsense was enough for me. Didn't want to read and find out that - like the beliefnet dabbling aliens calling themselves "Vedicists" - they've started to dub themselves "brahmanas" next in their pretence that aliens I mean Euros I mean oryans are Brahmanas (or vice-versa).





Anyway, the point was that the "Ynglism" page seems to be entirely the handiwork of our unFriend - unAethel unWolf:



en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ynglism&offset=&limit=500&action=history



which seems to prove my initial suspicion that Oryanism (in the form of the usual desperate oryanist mind) was the driving force behind the wackypedia Wuism page.





One further note:

IIRC the Ynglism page too once again linked to wackypedia's "Vedism" page, for more "related"* information on the topic. Of course it would, what with (obvious oryanist) Unaethel Unwolf at the helm.

* Note how suddenly the just-invented "Ynglism" religion has magically become more related to 'Vedism' (or "Historical Vedic Religion" as the wacky page on 'Vedism' called itself) than Hinduism is related to Vedic religion, which the same "Vedism" wacky page insisted was not actually the same as Vedic religion.

It's an oryan miracle.



Recently I read the intro to an article by Elst at indiafacts, where Elst argued that Hindus should look to form closer relationships with Europe's "neo-pagans". Uh, no. Neo-pagans are pseudo-pagans, and anti-heathens. (Also "paganism" as a universalised term for heathenisms makes as much sense as calling Hellenes "Hindus" and native Americans "Hindus". "Pagan" in the religious sense means ethnically-Roman Hellene. Not just anybody.)

Neopaganisms invent religion (some of which are oryanism-based: i.e. unknown to any historical European heathens). Wicca-ism and many other neo-pagan movements moreover poach on many heathen Gods and turn it all into a travesty. They can be quite disgusting to the heathens from whom they have poached, besides being utterly new age.

YSEE.gr - the Hellenismos site - was very correct in observing that neo-paganism is sinister and anti-heathen. (And IIRC, the YSEE.gr site didn't mention oryanism/Indo-Europeanism. <- Made them even more trustworthy than their eternally-brilliant FAQ indicated.)



There are genuine European heathens to befriend. (Including in de Koningrijk der Nederlanden :waves the rood-wit-blauw for NL heathens But the actual heathens in Europe are nowhere near as many as the numerous insane "neo-paganisms" mushrooming among all the crazy Americans and Europeans.



I will admit that the attempts to return to heathenism by the British - whom Elst named with distinction in IIRC the title or the intro - are less new-agey than that of other (non-Hellenistic) Europeans/European-origin groups. I specifically do NOT mean any British persons dabbling in anything Hindu (which is just dabbling=unheathen by definition. Heathenism is adherence to ancestral religion=Gods, at a minimum). Am referring to the highly organised - and intellectually-organised - British groups of heathen tendencies. Usually these are inspired by Hellenismos (incl. Roman variant) in general, or Philosophy - i.e. Hellenistic Philosophy exclusively - in particular. Despite myself, and my growing biases, I admire the particular British persons and groups I am thinking of, both for their sanity and their growing numbers: they're not stupid. And I will swear the ones I noticed sounded heathen to me in all their arguments. And not a mention of oryanism, which is perhaps the first sign to look for in any European-origin groups (that and the lack of dabbling in Hindus' religion).

[Husky]

Post 2/2



1. Missed out on summarising what I was driving at. In case it wasn't obvious from the listing of the links themselves, here's the explicit version:



From crazy oryanist circles that even other oryansists were afraid to be seen with (his publication was considered controversial and respectable people didn't want to touch it),

Mair's AIT on China fabrications have slowly moved onto main journals (IIRC Elsevier)

and now from there, the AIT in China speculations have started making their way to the mainstream/into the public view: wikipedia. Peddled by the oryanist footsoldiers, like the unWolf, who set up wackypedia pages like unAethel did the Wuism page just to insert these things.



These things always start out innocuously. In maybe 10 or 20 years time, the Wuism page's section on Further Information will get linked "self-evidently" to Vedism or Indo-Europism/Oryanism. And every single page on Chinese religion will speak equally self-evidently about how Chinese religion's origins were in IE religion and how the present stage of Taoism is not the current stage following on from the ancient stages of the Chinese religion - notably the ancient stage that wacky (and Mair) has marked out as "Wuism" and which Mair et al desperately want to claim for IE. (Since oryanists necessarily have to hog the early stages inorder to claim everything else that came after as and when they want.)



What was done to India - oryanism invented to take over Hindu religious heritage=heathenism for alien consumption/dabbling/self-aggrandising - is going to be done to China. The aliens have set the wheels in motion already.

But Indians *would* not kill oryanism - and some feed it. Now what Hindus do to themselves - subverting their own religion and all consequences - is their business. But, if anything happens to far Asian religions (it's a domino in E/SE Asia, when Taoism falls everything else will fall) it will be because of Indian incompetence and collusion.





Chinese who are aware of the problem already hate oryanism for the racist and illegal claim to fame that it is. Other E/SE Asians will be a short distance behind, if they haven't already caught up. (Other Asians are not stupid.)



Honestly, if I was E Asian (nice dream) I would be wanting retribution over this, and Indians would be part of the target. I don't understand why they *don't* blame us. Maybe because they already know that - unlike Iranians who were happy to sign up as oryans - Hindus resisted IE to some extent by resisting AIT. Or maybe it's a matter of time and they will eventually hold Indians accountable to some degree. Can't say they wouldn't be justified. Either way, the future will definitely tell.





2. Another thing to notice in wacky's "Vedism" page is that the page is something that's IIRC at least a decade or so old - going by memory of my having inspected this page's wiki edit history when I recently visited it.



The earliest versions of the page contain a section called "Religions considered to be Vedic in origin" and trace Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism to Vedic religion. [Hinduism is also lumped with them, because the Vedicists/oryanists argument is that Hinduism is not the natural current stage of the same, living Vedic religion, but that it is a spin-off invented by the miscegenated natives who being impure could not keep Vedic religion pure, as per the so-called/self-designated "Pure Vedicists" aka alien oryanists.]



en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Historical_Vedic_religion&oldid=18385788

Religions considered to be Vedic in origin

That was the very old version of the page.



Note that the *current* version of the wikipedia "Vedism" page peddles Ur-Shramanism. Predictably.



You can see oryanists in the west even host Jain ur-Shramanist pages. Hyper-oryan aliens since a few centuries back already subscribed to the a notion of ur-Shramanism anyway: they wanted to find a warlike and racist uber-superior/oryan religion in Vedic religion, so they are happy to donate all the innate ascetic aspects of Vedic religion to ur-Shramanist claimants. And of course, Indian nastikas increasingly never miss an opportunity to piggy back on the AIT - probably their greatest windfall in centuries - by peddling ur-Shramanism. It's not just Jains doing it though: the Buddhist Vipassana teacher in India greatly insists on ur-Shramanism and IIRC had an article where he wanted a Kanchi Shankaracharya to recognise it and went so far as to claim that the latter essentially had agreed to it in order for peace/pseudo-amicability to exist between Buddhism and Hindu religion. Sounded like emotional blackmail to me.



All of wackypedia is slowly being rewritten to refer to ur-Shramanism/to be consistent with the ur-Shramanist retelling of religio-history in India. As stated, there's a symbiotic relationship between alien oryanists and the ur-Shramanists parasite: the latter badly want to claim for themselves the very parts of Vedic religion that the former rejected as "unworthy" of "superior" (racist) oryanism.



Hindus are nowhere to be seen. I take that back. Modern Hindus are always seen swallowing ur-Shramanism piecemeal. (The entire Hindu audience of Sandhya Jain's christening - appropriate word here - of Tiruvalluvar as a Jain, her christening of Chatrapati Bharata as a Jain, etc. Then Rajeev Srinivasan's peddling of Buddhist rewriting of Hindu religio-history, other Hindus' peddling of ur-Shramanism - can see Hindus parrot that "Buddhism and Jainism existed during the IVC" - and Hindus' regular invocations of multiple Buddhas. Etc.)



Having already lost against oryanism (it won by default, not because of any truth to it, forget any proof, which it never provided), Hindus are going to lose to ur-Shramanism too. More definitely. In the former case - because aliens (obvious enemies) were the ones promoting oryanism, Hindus attempted some resistance. In the latter case, Hindus will do nothing: they will *never* say anything to displease Jains and Buddhists and will go along with backprojection of Buddhism and Jainism into ur-History (even though it's a lie) if this will make Jains/Buddhists happy and even in the absence of Buddhist and Jain presence, will gladly promote these religions as equals to their own ancestral religion, giving away one part after another of even exclusively-Vedic religion (e.g. Ramayanam) as magically being the "equal" heritage of Buddhism/Jainism. You know, *when* it comes back to bite people, surely it is deserved.



The fact that Hindus resisted oryanism but don't resist ur-Shramanism (but acquiesce to it and parrot it and applaud it) comes down to the usual stupidity of modern Hindus: they object to who is saying something (oryanism is uttered by alien oryanists) and not what is said (ur-Shramanism is allowed to creep under Hindus' skin because he other Dharmic religions/nastikas peddle it). [I expect sometime in the future, that Sikhism - having seen such a great daft Hindu reception to Buddhist and Jain attemtps at backprojection - will aim for a similar success and declare that their religion too is eternal and traces back to at least the IVC. And why not? Sounds no more preposterous than Buddhist and Jain claims to being coeval with (let alone pred-ating) Vedic religion. Plus Sikhism has already successfully backprojected that 'theologically', it never had anything to do with Hindu religion, and - particularly - it has successfully backprojected that its God never had anything to do with (let alone being identical to) a Hindu God - particularly Vishnu in Sikhism's case. At present, Sikhism worships an invisible monogawd - one that is expressly not a Hindu God - and claims that this was "always so". So claiming an "Sanatana" status - independent of origins in Hindu religion/Sanatana dharma - is just one step away: claim that Sikhism's invisible monogawd being eternal means that the religion was eternal. (QED.) A few hundred years from now, Indians will unanimously believe it, starting with Hindus.]





Modern Hindus are so hopeless. They don't even know to pick their battles (surely must be rule #1 in any war strategy manual?) They'd rather whine about distant issues like MF Hussein. But did his images ever make it into traditional Hindus houses or minds? No? Then did he matter? Only psecularists and subverted would be interested in MFH's output. No single heathen - let alone any Hindu - would go near it with a pole. (Or go near any "Hindu" that did.)

But ur-Shramanism is being peddled easily among Hindus and nowadays increasingly even by Hindus. Hindus will do nothing about that. What a horrid future modern Hindus are leaving for their kids. It's no wonder though that all Indian "Hindu" nationalist/vocalist sites tend more often to peddle the essential/ultimate oneness of "Dharmic" religions (projected by them as an identity relation or near enough), than actually know anything about Hindu religion from lifelong practice/adherence.

But then, Indian ("Hindu") nationalism requires all the Indic religions to be merged into an umbrella - India's own state religion = nationalism - and in the process, Hindu religion becomes the first and necessary sacrifice: everything that is exclusively Hindu (not to mention everything originally so) is automatically "equally" Buddhist and Jain. Nationalist vocalists will write (bad) scholarly article after another, (badly) equating Hindu claims to Hindu religion with Buddhist and Jain claims to the same. (E.g. seen in that indiafacts article on how "Ramayanam is equally Buddhist/Jain as it is Hindu".) Nationalist vocalists are great subverters of Hindus' ancestral heathenism. The first error is that they de-recognise it as an independent and real entity.

[Husky]

Oh how could I have missed the best bit of all? IE-ism develops in unexpected directions sometimes.



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedism

The Vedic beliefs and practices of the pre-classical era were closely related to the hypothesised Proto-Indo-European religion,[25][26] and the Indo-Iranian religion.[27] According to Anthony, the Old Indic religion probably emerged among Indo-European immigrants in the contact zone between the Zeravshan River (present-day Uzbekistan) and (present-day) Iran.[28] It was "a syncretic mixture of old Central Asian and new Indo-European elements",[28] which borrowed "distinctive religious beliefs and practices"[29] from the Bactria–Margiana Culture.[29] At least 383 non-Indo-European words were borrowed from this culture, including the god Indra and the ritual drink Soma.[30] According to Anthony,

Many of the qualities of Indo-Iranian god of might/victory, Verethraghna, were transferred to the adopted god Indra, who became the central deity of the developing Old Indic culture. Indra was the subject of 250 hymns, a quarter of the Rig Veda. He was associated more than any other deity with Soma, a stimulant drug (perhaps derived from Ephedra) probably borrowed from the BMAC religion. His rise to prominence was a peculiar trait of the Old Indic speakers.[21]

The "Anthony, 2007" reference is to:

Anthony, David W. (2007), The Horse The Wheel And Language. How Bronze-Age Riders From the Eurasian Steppes Shaped The Modern World, Princeton University Press

Respekt man. What a grand oryan title for storytelling that is: the oryans "shaped the world" - and the "modern world" what's more, i.e. their influence is to be ongoing still - complete with Pretzel's I mean Witzel's "oryan tank" and all ("the horse, the wheel", the spiel).

Oh well, the title doesn't claim they called themselves oryans. Just "anonymous" 'bronze-age riders from the Eurasian Steppes' <- look, Anthony identifies the Urheimat in the title itself! Everyone by now is familiar with Indo-Europods="bronze-age riders from the Eurasian Steppes", so Anthony knew there was no need for him to make explicit mention.

(By the way, when they threaten that "The Wheel" was a product of these Steppe people and shaped the world, do they mean to imply these Steppe people *invented* the wheel? Because Mesopotamia - say - had the wheel a long time ago too... <- Apparently who first came up with that is also a contentious issue.

Or maybe Anthony just means that the Indo-Europds were to have used "the horse, the wheel" to get about so that they could then "shape the modern world" with their "language"?)





But to get to the actual point: So Indra is now non-IE? And Soma too? Who saw this coming from the direction of IE-ism/oryanism? (Not me, BTW.)



They're introducing words like "syncretic" etc. Sounds like the development of excuses to explain away problematic situations like say things that exist in Hindu religion but are missing from alien religions? But until ... "yesterday", aliens insisted that Thor=Indra. So what happened/Who died? (Anyway, Thor is not Indra.)



The "Vedism" wacky page - which is also titled the "Historical Vedic Religion" - claims that historical Vedic religion has everything to do with This, That and The Other Thing of "Kurgan culture" and further links to PIE pages for "more info". Kurgan culture. <- Isn't that the most oryan-supremacist urheimat theory remaining of all the current urheimat theories? [Complete with patriarchal warlike-for-the-sake-of-it societies invading left and right.] Also notable is that not even the Anatolian hypothesis of Renfrew (was it?) got a mention on this wacky page, though it's been some time since the "Kurgan" theory of Marija Gimbutas' (was it not her?) was regarded suspect - IIRC for being obvious (feminist?) history revisionism - in favour of considering alternatives that at least sounded "more scholarly/more likely because less B-fantasy-movie" by post-Gimbutas IE-ists. Or have they reverted back to Gimbutas' Kurgans? I suppose The Oryans simply weren't interesting enough in all those other theories. "B-fantasy-movie it IS."



I'm still waiting for Oryanists to fall over themselves - as they must - to claim Gobekli Tepe. I mean, come on: already dubbed "oldest civilisation" (by several millennia) PLUS it's said to be the genetic origin for the ancestral wheat form used in human cultivation/agro (farming!), AND it's found smack in Turkey, which is only the nth favoured Oryan Urheimat (if the former Soviet Republic et al can't provide, and since Scandinavia was 'sadly' disqualified as urheimat in early rounds :oh-woe.

Tragically, at 12000 BP the inhabitants of Gobekli Tepe were likely to have been even more African-looking than the 7000 BP "African skintoned" La Brana Stone Age European man whose genes were "otherwise" specifically-Scandinavian.





Ooh, the full import of the above wackypedia excerpt just hit me. (I'm slow, what can I say. If the world exploded now, I'd still be here tomorrow because it wouldn't have sunk in yet.)

As per the 'Anthony' citation in wackypedia's own IE-ist page for "Vedism":



- It seems aliens in IE-ism itself have started theorising that Indran is now specific to Indians. And that he is in fact non-IE even. (Not that Indran being ours was news to Hindoos. But the point is that now, AIT or not, Indran isn't oryan/IE. That is, he remains Vedic, just not IE.)



- And so, since Indran is not IE as per some IE-ists themselves apparently, can tell all the delusional alien "vedicists" - who are regularly pretending that Indran must have been *their* "ancestral" God (by Argumentum ad Oryanism) and that they "therefore" have the "Oryan Right To Dabble in the Vedam" -

again, can tell the delusional oryanist dabblers that :oh-so-tragically: Indra is exclusively our [as in: the "miscegenated Indians", from the alien POV] ancestral God, and that the alien dabblers can therefore Drop Dead Already. And since much of the Vedam is in praise of Indran moreover ("1/4 of the Rig Vedam" as per the above excerpt, and IE-ism further declares the Rig the oldest of the chaturvedam), that makes the aliens'/oryanists' pretensions to dabbling in the Vedam out of bounds for them even by oryanist arguments. I mean, with Indran being non-IE even from an IE point of view, he and the Riks to him - if not all the Vedam, since "Indra is the Bull (coursing through the entirety) of the Vedam" - are officially no longer to do with the aliens/oryanists. :Score:





Indran and hence the Vedam - at a mimimum all the parts of the Vedam praising him - are not "Indo-European" anymore: because it has now become liturgy significantly-centred on a non-IE God that is merely written in an allegedly "IE" language, Sanskrit. That is, the language employed may still be claimed as IE, but the contents - Indran Himself and the praise to Indran - are not IE. (So much for the "Pure Vedism" reconstructionist movement by alien dabblers/oryanists. Sadly, the Vedam is apparently not "pure IE" on even important points. But it is rather impure "miscegenated Indian". So die.)



But proof of supreme greatness of Mahendra: What other God can claim to have beaten the evil, encroaching clutches of oryanism? [Well yeah, okay, Aphrodite admittedly. <- The oryanists weren't happy at all with the British scholarly books by IIRC Classicists, featuring - among other 'small' discoveries/proofs - how Aphrodite is -demonstrably- not IE. IE-ists commenting showed marked displeasure concerning the import of the relevant discovery: it didn't escape them that the direct implication was that Aphrodite is not IE. But they couldn't actually argue away the valid points raised either, and trailed off lamely with "of course she is (must be) IE" type retorts instead, which uh...doesn't actually constitute a valid argument. Anyway, it's not like Hellenes ever claimed their Goddess was "IE". She was just native to their space, and which she remains as per the findings. And even today you have Hellenes at ysee.gr deriving Olympos from IIRC the native Pelasgian, of which it is not known that it is IE and it is further even thought to not be IE.]





The interesting stuff was:



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedism

The Vedic beliefs and practices of the pre-classical era were closely related to the hypothesised Proto-Indo-European religion,[25][26] and the Indo-Iranian religion.[27] According to Anthony, the Old Indic religion probably emerged among Indo-European immigrants in the contact zone between the Zeravshan River (present-day Uzbekistan) and (present-day) Iran.[28] It was "a syncretic mixture of old Central Asian and new Indo-European elements",[28] which borrowed "distinctive religious beliefs and practices"[29] from the Bactria–Margiana Culture.[29] At least 383 non-Indo-European words were borrowed from this culture, including the god Indra and the ritual drink Soma.[30] According to Anthony,

Many of the qualities of Indo-Iranian god of might/victory, Verethraghna, were transferred to the adopted god Indra, who became the central deity of the developing Old Indic culture. Indra was the subject of 250 hymns, a quarter of the Rig Veda. He was associated more than any other deity with Soma, a stimulant drug (perhaps derived from Ephedra) probably borrowed from the BMAC religion. His rise to prominence was a peculiar trait of the Old Indic speakers.[21]

[...]

Anthony, David W. (2007), The Horse The Wheel And Language. How Bronze-Age Riders From the Eurasian Steppes Shaped The Modern World, Princeton University Press

[Husky]

Post 1/



Not intended originally for this thread, but other stuff I found puts it here.



Brokpa/Drogpa (sp?) are a Dardic-speaking population of India's Ladakh region. (Kashmiri is another language classed as Dardic.)

Brokpa/Drogpa are listed as a "Dard" population (like the Kalash Kafirs of Chitral).



None of that's particularly interesting.





What's interesting is that their religion is said to be:

- Either Tibetan Buddhist on the surface but with discernable traces of Bon (implied as being their ancestral religion)

- OR plain Bon (along with -presumably other- animism)



All while at least some of the Brokpa definitely look Indic. Whereas others look Himalayan/Turkic/Mongolian. Then again, the Himalayan region is seguing country (Indic meets Tibetan-Mongolian/C-Asian), so they may simply encompass a range of phenotypes. Of course, while it's known that the Afghan and Persian regions also long had a presence of C-Asian (Shamanist) tribes practising their ancestral Shamanist religion of Bon there, still, no one I read ever produced actual evidence that it was the Iranians and ethnic-Afghans (Indics) practising Bon over there.





1. Wacky says of the Brokpa/Drogpa of the Ladakhi villages of Da and Hann:

"Dardic religion in Indian Ladakh, particularly in the villages of Da and Hann, retains marked traces of the pre-Buddhist animistic religion, Bon-chos. retains marked traces of the pre-Buddhist animistic religion, Bon-chos."



(Oooh, I note Tibetan Buddhists haven't defaced this wacky page yet with how Bon is suddenly "a post-Buddhist Buddhist religion"... Maybe Tibetan Buddhists feel intimidated by the fact that the Drogpas/Brokpas are classed as a "scheduled tribe" and their religio-cultural identity is protected?)



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dard_people

Dard people

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The Dard people are a group of people predominantly found in northern Pakistan's Gilgit–Baltistan and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, northern India's Jammu and Kashmir, and eastern Afghanistan.



There is a small community of dards admixed with tibetan ladakhis in ladakh under indian administered Jammu and kashmir state is known as Brokpa, Drokpa and Shin, and speak Dardic languages.[1]



Contents



1 Origin

2 Religion

3 Social status

4 See also

5 References



Origin



Parpola (1999) identifies "Proto-Dardic" with "Proto-Rigvedic", suggesting that the Dards are the linguistic descendants of the bearers of proto Rigvedic culture ca. 1700 BC, pointing to features in certain Dardic dialects that continue peculiarities of Rigvedic Sanskrit, such as the gerund in -tvī (p. 189).



During Swati rule, the Dard people predominantly followed the Kalash religion and frequent small-scale jihad against Dards may have been a routine.[2]

Religion



The majority of Dardic peoples are Muslims except a small population of polytheistic Kalash[2][3] Dardic religion in Indian Ladakh, particularly in the villages of Da and Hann, retains marked traces of the pre-Buddhist animistic religion, Bon-chos.[3] The Kalash tribes found in Chitral, are exceptional in having retained their ancestral polytheistic religion and are officially protected by the Government of Pakistan.

Social status



As of 2001, the Dards in Ladakh region (better known as Brokpa, Drokpa etc.) of indian administered state of Jammu and Kashmir were classified as a Scheduled Tribe under the Indian government's reservation program of positive discrimination.[1]

(The mention of "Bon-chos" above links to wacky's Bon page.)



Intriguing how the allegedly "pure Aryan" Brokpa/Drokpa get Scheduled Tribe status only because they're not Hindu.

(Look, I'm not begrudging them special status, but obviously the discrimination is against anything that is Hindu under the excuse of AIT, since alleged pure oryans - and Drogpa are believed by nazis to be Da purest of the pure oryans [whatever that means] - are not targeted by the same AIT hate campaign, but are instead declared as scheduled tribe which is pretty much "adivasi"/native-to-the-soil status.)



Surprised that no one's curiosity seems to be piqued as to why a population that looks more Afghan or Kashmiri/Indic than E Asian has a religion that should exhibit apparent traces of Bon - of all things. I mean, southern Chinese vanavasi tribes (looking pretty E Asian and very native to their region of South China) show clear traces of Bon religion (or ancestor to Bon religion).



2. The wacky Brokpa page -

Religion: Tibetan Buddhist, Bön, Animist

[...]

They are nominally Buddhist, however animist and Bön rituals still survive.[3]

(Well, that said, many laity in supposedly Buddhist countries tend to be super-nominally Buddhist and mostly of ancestral heathen religion. Others are miscounted as Buddhist what's more)



Oddly, the previous edit of the same page features an out-of-place looking photo (get the impression that drawing attention to the eye-colour is the point of it?) but the more interesting edit is the change from:



en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brokpa_%28Ladakh%29&oldid=645107672

Regions with significant populations:

Dha-Hanu valley, Ladakh, India.

to:

en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brokpa_%28Ladakh%29&oldid=645108140

Regions with significant populations



Dha,Darchiks,Garkhone valley, [[Lada

<break>

kh]], India.

3. This next weirdo link - advertising for how this poor population is "pure oryan, oryan, bei gott", declares the Drokpa/Brokpa to be animists and Bon by religion (Bon like any heathen religion is animist, as all know, but it is also specifically Shamanist from all that I've read).



travel.india.com/ladakh/places-to-visit/valleys-dha-hanu

Dha-Hanu

Listed Under Valleys in Ladakh





Place Details:



Renowned as ‘the Land of Aryans’, Dha and Hanu village are settlements of Drokpa or Brokpa community in Ladakh. The village is located about 163 km northwest of Leh at the confluence of rivers Shyok and Indus in Kargil region in Jammu and Kashmir.



According to popular belief, the Brokpas were part of the army of Alexander the Great and came to the region over two thousand years ago. The Brokpas reside in five villages; however, tourists are allowed only in two villages – Dha and Hanu. Besides tourists, the villages also attract anthropologists. (This last - the alleged "anthropologists" that are attracted to the place - turns out to be a... curiosity in itself, see further down.



But oh wow if this isn't the 1000th time that the Alexander excuse has been thrown up for a community in Indic space looking slightly fairer than the Kashmiris or the pre-islamic-invasion Afghans...)



The custom of marrying within the community has ensured the Brokpas have retained their distinctive features. Brokpa have fair complexion and blue coloured eyes. The custom of marrying within the community has, however, limited the population of Brokpas. The community hardly numbers over 2000. (And way too many dubious "tourists" coming to intermarry, see below.



But images do not show them with blue eyes nor always with a fair - w.r.t. Indic range - skintone.)





Drokpa or Brokpa community is racially and culturally distinct from the common Ladakhis. The community has a unique sense of dressing. The community especially women makes it a practice to wear flowers on their hats. The practice has earned them the sobriquet of flower women of Ladakh. The community also practices polyandry.



Unlike rest of Ladakh which is predominantly Buddhist, Brokpas are animist and follow the Bon religion. They consider Ibex as sacred animal. The Brokpa people have preserved their traditions and rituals over the ages.



[...]

In all the pictures that I've seen of Brokpas/Drokpas so far, none of them had blue eyes or fair hair. Note that Google Images also presents images of Kalash Kafirs when searching for Drokpas, so ignore those. (More shocking is that at least one image of fair-haired, blue-eyed Kalash Kafiri girl - who also turns up under Drokpa search - turns out to have been photoshopped: her brown eyes and darker hair and even darker skintone all got a "lift" until I'm sure she wouldn't have recognised herself.)



3. Images. Their clothing certainly makes them look like the kind of population that western people would classify as "exotic" or even as "tribal" (and animist...):



a. beforethey.com/tribe/drokpa

"Before They Pass Away" site



None of the images of Brokpas have blue-eyed (or fair-haired) persons, most of them look distinctly Indic and not what Europeans would regard as fair. One of them even looks like they could pass for Himalayan (tinge of E Asian).

“Boast during the day, be humble at night”



Around 2,500 Drokpas live in three small villages in a disputed territory between India and Pakistan. (Huh? Then why not say that China also claims ownership of all of Jammu and Kashmir not just Ladakh, see wacky, and not just Pakistan?) The only fertile valley of Ladakh. The Drokpas are completely different– physically, culturally, linguistically and socially – from the Tibeto-Burman inhabitants of most of Ladakh.



For centuries, the Drokpas have been indulging in public kissing and wife-swapping without inhibitions. Their cultural exuberance is reflected in exquisite dresses and ornaments. Their main sources of income are products from the well-tended vegetable gardens.

b. More pictures can be found by googling for "Brokpa". Again, be warned not to confuse Brokpa with the images of the few fair Kalash Kafirs* that suddenly show up among a google image search for Brokpas (perhaps because the Brokpas have been slandered as "pure oryans" - which would certainly be interesting if true, since about 50% of the first page of Google Image results show photos of Himalayan Sino-Tibetan looking people rather than Indic ones).



* Interesting also that the first Google search image for Kalash Kafirs is the doctored one of the girl who suddenly has fair hair and light eyes (thanks to Photoshop).



c. Among the Google search results:



flickr.com/photos/waltercallens/4882276651/

India - Traditional dances and culture of the Brokpa people - A tribal community in the Dha-Hanu valley of Ladakh.



Drokpa (or Brokpa) community is considered as the last race of Aryans, confined to the Dha valley. Their features are pure Indo Aryan and they have preserved their racial purity down the centuries.



Their culture and religious practices are very similar to ancient pre-Buddhist religion known as Bon-Chos. Both the men and women folk adorn headgears made with handpicked fresh flowers, every single day.

(More images at that link in a manual slideshow, all of which are in line with the above image.)



But going by the image of this Brokpa person - see above - and which image led me to the flickr page and its description of the Brokpa:



So the "purest Aryans" - as the linked flickr text is advertising - look more like .... native Americans than even Indics let alone Europods? Way Cool! Who knew?

(OK, some of the other Flickr images in this collection also happen to look Indic, but none look European I'd say.)





4. And then this Facecrooks page has more images - but these look distinctly Indic, mostly plain Indian though the last image also looks Afghan.



Yet the text says:



facebook.com/Ladakhbagpackers/posts/292892917568164

Ladakh Backpackers added 3 new photos.

December 8, 2014 · Edited ·



The Brokpa tribe of Ladakh belonging to a wider community of Dardic people is one of the earliest settlers of Ladakh. According to many historians , they trace their history as "the wandering soldiers of Alexander ( Macedonia)". The community is one of the brightest jewels in the diverse beautiful ethic mixture of Ladakh. The tribe continues to follow the intangible and tangible heritage including Shina language and major remnants of ancient Bon practices.



(IIRC, the Kalash Kafirs were also repeatedly brainwashed with the whole "you must be remnants of a lost Greek contingent" story and now many believe it apparently. Googling says that DNA tests don't confirm any Greek ancestry after all. Bummer for those who were too invested in it. But wonder how the Greeks feel with all kinds of random people getting lumped with them for no good reason.



But I will say some among the Kalash Kafirs at least do look more Greek than the Brokpa tend to. Then again, the Kalash just look like a population that is somewhere between Anatolia and India - I don't know why there should be a sudden cut off.



Having said all of that, maybe the Kalash of Chitral have/had also attracted European oryanism-chasers like the Brokpa have (see further below)... I mean, why are all the fair-haired etc Kalash Kafiris pictures of youngsters - as mentioned in a forum, see post below - yet these are not features so much seen in the older generations. Though lighter eyes don't count for much: green and grey eyes are accidental as per my NL biology teacher (but can be compounded by inbreeding).)



Ladakh Backpackers



Brokpa children in traditional attire - one of the purest Aryan community in the entire subcontinet

December 8, 2014 at 7:52pm



Ladakh Backpackers Darchiks, Garkon, Dah, Hanu, Biama are a group of villages nesting along the steep bank of Indus River in Kargil and Leh districts of the Ladakh region. These villages are home to an exclusive tribal community called ‘Brokpas/ Drokpas’, who are considered to be descendent of a lost Aryan tribe. They are distinctly different, both racially and culturally from the other inhabitants of the region

1 · December 8, 2014 at 11:54am



(Uh, what's a "lost Aryan tribe"? Are they confusing "the lost Jewish tribe" mythos with PIE mythos? The alleged original aryans/PIE entities themselves are "Lost", or rather, they didn't go missing but were never found in the first place. Never mind.)



Tenzin Wangchuk

they are such a beautiful people. are they buddhist???

December 21, 2014 at 3:43am



(Apparently not: they're not quite Buddhist or not at all Buddhist, depending on which wacky page you read.

But the leap by Tenzin Wangchuk - Tibetan Buddhist name I'm guessing - from "they are such a beautiful people" to "are they buddhist?" is a bit creepy...

Tibetans are a beautiful people themselves, very easy on my eyes. But then I have a serious E/SE Asian/Himalayan bias and it's only growing.)

[Husky]

Post 2/



5. The link in 6 below was found via s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5281391/1/

(a couple more pictures of Brokpa - have to scroll down much further down - but also other populations not seen often enough)

Gayetri

Nov 9 2013, 02:09 PM



I read about Drokpas in an article when I was in school. It is believed that Nazis came down to Tibet to search them :nuts: I think, they look more like Central Asians than West Asians. Here is another Drokpa woman:

(Pretty image - facial features look a bit like Mahima Choudhury (sp?) or Rani Mukherjee to me...)

Vishal Nov 9 2013, 10:04 PM

[...]

There have been reports of Western women coming to Ladakh to get pregnant from Brokpa/drokpa men.

6. Which then also linked to the following. Eewwww doesn't even begin to describe it:



openthemagazine.com/article/art-culture/the-last-of-the-aryans

6 August 2011

The Last of the Aryans

Nobody knows of their real origin or if they are indeed Aryans. But, regarded as long-lost members of a purebred ' Race' settled in the Himalayas, Brokpas attract curious visitors, some of who try to satisfy their fantasy of having pure Aryan babies



(Reminds me of that movie "Europa, Europa" where German nazi women raved on about having "Arische" children for their fuehrer. Ewww.

But check the dates, 2007 and 2011, so nothing has changed.)



13

BY Shubhangi Swarup EMAIL AUTHOR(S)

BY Ruhani Kaur EMAIL PHOTOGRAPHER(S)



Tagged Under | Aryans | race | Brokpas

BIZARRE



[img caption:] Tsewang Lhundup, the Brokpa who was pleased to offer his Aryan genes to a German woman desirous of a pure-bred baby



In 2007, filmmaker Sanjeev Sivan released his documentary Achtung Baby: In Search of Purity on the phenomenon of German women travelling to Indian villages by the Line of Control (LoC) in Kashmir to get impregnated by men they believe to be racially pure Aryans. These villages are inhabited by a tribe called Brokpas, who are rumoured to be the 'last pure specimens' of the Aryan race. Across the world, several people still regard Aryans as the 'Master Race'--tall, blue-eyed blondes endowed with superior intelligence and values.



While Brokpa folklore says that the community arrived here from Gilgit in Pakistan just across the LoC, there is a view that they are actually descendants of Alexander the Great's army, whose Genghis Khan-like sexual profligacy is a matter of legend. Much Greek DNA is said to exist in north India even today. (Uh, Alexander came as far as Pakiland. And the Hellenised part is in Afghanistan, IIRC.) What marks Brokpas out, however, is that they have lived isolated lives for centuries in such an inaccessibly harsh terrain that they seem to have kept their DNA untainted by outsiders. Thus, the tantalising prospect of purity.



Shooting the documentary was far from easy for Sivan. With the help of an Indian colonel, he traced a German lady holidaying with a Brokpa man in a resort in Leh. Back then, foreigners weren't allowed easily into Darchik, the man's village, so Leh was chosen as a love-nest. Sivan had to shoot secret footage of the two roaming around together, and then persuade the lady into speaking to him. The Brokpa man had no inhibitions in being filmed.



In the film, the lady tells us how she isn't the first, and "definitely not the last" to travel this far to have an Aryan child, one who, she imagined, would grow up grateful for the gift of racially superior intelligence. She speaks of an organised system behind such pregnancy tourism, but refuses to elaborate. "It's not wrong, what I'm doing," she says, "I'm paying for what I want."



This half-uttered disclosure leaves your imagination to concoct a trail of shady travel agents having closed door meetings with interested foreigners in seedy offices in Paharganj, a lurid story of the sexual exploitation of naive men of the highlands. Why should only women come to get impregnated by Brokpa men, you wonder. How have their womenfolk escaped a similar fate? The answer probably lies in the Alexander & Genghis Sons and Co theory. The genes, it seems, are passed along only by men. Women are treated solely as incubators.



The German lady in Sivan's film had not only paid the man for his services, she was gracious enough to bring gifts for his family and children. The Brokpa man is happy with the arrangement. "I have no expenses to pay," he says. "I have nothing to lose. I want to keep doing this. My children will come to visit me one day and take me to Germany."

(And you can be an honorary member of the Arische race. No backpeddling though.)



The film doesn't reveal the German woman's face. The Brokpa man though, is easily identifiable. He is Tsewang Lhundup, 32, from Darchik village, Kargil district.



+++



Tsewang still doesn't know how Sivan found him. He doesn't even know why the German lady chose him. "Mostly, they look for tall people with long noses," he says, "I don't know why they chose me." Tsewang is not tall. Nor does he have a big nose. He is pudgy. "Maybe they liked my behaviour," he reckons.

(OK that's just self-delusion, right? He was a *willing Brokpa*, which is the sole reason he was "chosen".

One can't avoid observing, but what he's doing is prostituting himself. And for oryanism.)



Tsewang is a changed man now, many years after the documentary was shot. For starters, he is now a 'Lhaba' (a shaman or witch doctor). He has gained weight and the respectability that accompanies a healer. People come to him in throngs from neighbouring villages, Buddhists and Muslims with problems as varied as indigestion, insomnia, boils and kids who skip school.



Tsewang is still as straight talking as he was in the film. He stands by everything he said before--for, the truth is the truth, he explains. But he does feel slightly "sharminda (embarrassed)": "One can't openly talk about these things." He is a father of four (the four he is aware of and whose mother is his wife). When we visited him, his wife had left the village for a few days. In the film, she implies that she is aware of her husband's German friends.



Tsewang had to drop out of school--having studied only till the 8th standard--after his father passed away, replacing him in his work. His circumstances have played a role in his choices. If the German lady offered him money to impregnate her, the documentary filmmaker offered to help him find odd jobs with the Indian Army. At the moment, Tsewang works in the local water supply department six days a week and attends to patients on Sunday as a Lhaba.



Such is the fate of Brokpas living in Dha, Hanu, Darchik, Garkon and other closeby villages--far away places that inhabit the margins of India's national consciousness.



They qualify as exotic on most counts, beginning with the elaborate floral head-dresses the women wear even when they work in the fields, reminding you of how the Mexican painter Frida Kahlo dressed and her choice of colours. The head-dress includes rows of coins stitched together for ornamentation, with some dating as far back as 1890, and bright ribbons. Even the men sport a flower or two. Brokpas not only look and dress 'exotic', they also behave differently. The local deity worshipped here abhors cows and chicken, hence both are considered taboo, villagers explain. Some of this is changing, though, under the influence of Buddhism and Islam. Fraternal polyandry--with brothers sharing a wife--is also prevalent in the Brokpa community, but instances of this phenomenon have gone down considerably now.



(On the last sentence: Trying to establish a tenuous link with the MBh may perhaps not be relevant to the now-Bauddhised but once-Bon people? Especially as Fraternal Polyandry is common in Tibet too - where it is a remnant of a once-Bon society.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_culture

'In his memoirs about his life in Tibet in the 1940s, Austrian writer Heinrich Harrer reports encountering nomads practising polyandry: "We were astonished to find polyandry practised among the nomads." "When several brothers share the same wife, the eldest is always the master in the household and the others have rights only when he is away or amusing himself elsewhere."[13]')



Typecasting Brokpas as 'exotic' has been so overdone, however, that even Mona Bhan, an anthropologist studying the community for almost a decade, is weary of speaking about them. "I have been quoted out of context by journalists and filmmakers who visit Brokpa villages with the sole purpose of realising their own fantasies of a pure Aryan race," says the assistant professor of anthropology at Depauw University, Indiana, US, "a fantasy deeply rooted in our persistent yet unspoken obsession with race as a marker of identity and otherness."



However, to an outsider, the customs and appearance of Brokpas only provide further evidence of their 'exotic' lineage.



Most tourist guidebooks and eager villagers highlight the traditional Brokpa abhorrence of the cow, be it cow's milk or beef, as a sign of their uniqueness. How this uniqueness fits in with the Aryan image, a race popularly deemed to be of cattle herders in olden days, these guidebooks don't explain.



The theory claiming Brokpas to be Aryans, says Bhan, is a legacy of the British, who were deeply invested in racial categorisation for purposes of exercising authority, not just marking identity. She is currently writing a book that explicitly tackles this complex relationship between race and colonial governance. "Several Company Orientalists, scholars who worked for the colonial enterprise, played an instrumental role in popularising perceptions of Aryanism in the Northwestern Himalayas," she says. "They based it on an ill-conceived framework that conflated racial frameworks of identity with the region's 'distinctive' linguistic features. Since certain languages spoken in the Northwestern Himalayas were thought to share similarities with other Indo-Aryan languages, the speakers of these languages were also categorised as Aryans."



(How easily - and in what a short period of time - the aliens change self-perceptions and known histories of populations. Can even see it in other Indians' fawning over oryanism and wanting to be part of it. But glad the Brits got bitten by oryanism themselves. And got all aliens bitten. Also own fault.)



Among Brokpas themselves, an awareness of their 'Aryanness' has spread far and wide with the influx of tourists and others drawn by the tag. Within just decades, the process of exoticising is firmly and disturbingly in place. Aware of Aryan looks and cultural traits, Brokpas are now seen to seek these out in themselves.



When we enter Darchik village, a local tells us about how tall his grandfather was, how Aryan his physique was. He says this because he himself is a short, thin man, rather like a Tibetan. He also shows us photographs on his mobile phone of a fair, blue-eyed girl who lives here, for he himself has dark-brown eyes. In all the travelogues and photo essays on this community, you will not find this man, or the likes of him. Photographers prefer to follow him to the blue-eyed girl's house, and writers prefer to speak of his large, broad-shouldered grandfather.



The promise of an Aryan experience brings in a fair share of visitors to these villages, ranging from curious backpackers, aggressive journalists and researchers to people seeking the extraordinary. Tourists from France, Iceland, Austria, Japan, Korea, Poland and even Israel have left their signatures in the guesthouse rosters here. The Army too welcomes important guests and higher-ups here with a traditional Brokpa dance.



+++



Murli Menon, author of books like Power to Succeed and Power to Relax has researched various tribes all over the world, including the Long Neck tribe of Chiang Mai, Orang Asli of Malaysia and Siddhis of Gir. He's also stayed with Brokpas for around three months, intrigued by a writer's observation that they lead stress-free lives.



Menon recorded the songs they sing at sunset, and plays it in the relaxation workshops he conducts for corporates. "It has a hypnotic tone," he says, "Some people who find it difficult to sleep find it useful." During his stay, he found that Brokpas have fewer addictions than others, their life expectancy is higher, and they tend to lead more active lives. He attributes their fitness to the almost vegan diet they follow, and their joie de vivre to their tradition of singing and dancing.



On his website, Menon has also uploaded photographs of himself hugging the fabled Juniper tree. 'The energy aura of these trees was phenomenal,' reads his note below the pictures, 'One could feel a new vigour in each and every cell of one's body when you stepped onto this sacred grove of the Aryans of Dah.'



Tsewang Lhundup, the Lhaba of Darchik, offers different reasons for their freedom from stress. "We don't have dowry, so there is no tension of having daughters," he says. "We eat what we grow, so don't worry about our meals. We may not be rich, but we are not extremely poor either."



Recently, two foreign journalists reached Dah seeking the story of the Neo Nazi Tourist in search of the Pure Aryan Seed. They were both White women, and went around asking every male they could find, young and old, if they had been propositioned. Since they couldn't find any, but still needed a story, they switched to asking local men hypothetical questions. What if women came looking for the Aryan seed here? Would the men comply? Lundup Dorje, 31, couldn't help but laugh when they posed such questions to village elders. "They asked even 70- and 80-year-olds what they'd do if a foreign woman came looking to breed. One old man replied that he is willing to contribute."



Lundup is a curious man who runs a guesthouse in Dha for backpackers. Through them, he has understood why foreigners are so interested in Aryans. "In the world, everything is a mixture," says he. "So they are looking for the pure." He may not entirely grasp the nature of such attention, but he is definitely using it to market the apricot jam he makes. It comes from the Land of Aryans, reads the publicity brochure.



+++



One man who tries to educate his fellow villagers about their ethnicity and origin is Tsewang Gailtsen, a Buddhist Brokpa from Garkon village. He is a lecturer in political science, teaching at the Higher Secondary School in Silmo, a town that also has Brokpas who have converted to Islam, like their brethren on the other side of the LoC. "In Ladakh, 'Brokpa' is considered derogatory," he says. The community is stereotyped as an inferior, dirty, uncivilised people; a Ladakhi proverb warns never to store an axe over one's head, nor have a Brokpa nearby. But tourists, they have an entirely different point of view. "Tourists look at us with respect," says Gailtsen, "They look at us as a pure race, as the few that haven't been assimilated." They help stoke Brokpa pride.



(Yeah well, one man's Oryan Dream is not shared by all.)



In the past, DNA samples drawn from Brokpas have been sent to the Genographic Project. Based on the sample study, Professor Pitchappan, the project's regional director, says that the community seems to be "ancient" and "isolated". However, there isn't enough global data to say where they migrated from. "To discuss their Aryan claims," he says, "one needs to define who an 'Aryan' is first, what are 'Aryan' genetic characteristics. This is very hard to define..."



(Well, it's a problem of relativity.

If the Brokpas are defined as the pure oryans - but funny they don't even have anything like the Vedas despite living a stone's throw away from those that do, and are instead practising what is described by historians as a "Shamanistic" religion - then everyone else's oryanness will have to be measured with respect to them. If the Steppe dwelling E Europeans, say, were defined as the standard, then Brokpas may not be as close to purity as E Europeans. Anyway, oryanism is whatever the oryanists want it to be. The meaning evolves.)



The truth is, no one really knows where Brokpas come from. The confusion is hilariously represented in a blurb on them in a Lonely Planet guide to India. Titled 'Lost Tribes', it says in all seriousness, 'The facial features of the Brokpa (also known as Drokpa or Dards) 'people of the pastures' have led to speculation that the tribe has descended from Alexander the Great's invasion force or even a lost tribe of Israel.' That is as good as saying these people could have come from anywhere.



("Lost tribe of Israel" as another alternative to explain where Brokpa "must be" "from"? Since apparently their existence in any location "requires" an explanation for others. You mean like the "Lost Jewish tribe" of Mizos, who - let's be honest - look more like SE Asians or Himalayans than anything middle-eastern, but mustn't let such obvious matters - that are staring people in the face - stop monotheisms from projecting biblical stories onto them. I mean, if Mizos can be deluded=brainwashed into thinking they're ethnic Jews/a "lost tribe" or that they ought to be christians, then they deserve to be deluded. And if Brokpa similarly fall for the "Alexander's forces" or "Lost tribe of Israel" or "Oryans", then it's their own fault too.)



But in their search for a Master Race, pregnancy tourists and other curious visitors from all over the world have given the Brokpa self-esteem a hefty boost. Which is probably a good thing. As the professor puts it, "Let them feel proud of themselves, their culture. We need not interfere with their pride. We do not have the liberty."



(No. It's *not* a good thing. It is not their actual culture or actual selves they're feeling proud of, but a false one forced onto them. Their entire self-perception and sense of history has been totally subverted. Now they can join the Losers Club that many modern Indians belong to as well. Same disease. Same infection. Aliens' fault. But glad aliens are hopelessly infected too.)

The first comment by someone going on about how Jats are the "pure oryans" is another example of other Indians having imbibed oryanism too and having the *same* warped self-perceptions and weird sense of self-importance. The extent of the oryan subversion is crazy. And I don't think Hindus have ever contemplated how all the Indics who subscribe to oryanism and perceive themselves as oryans would *totally* have been white supremacists had they but been European and not Indian. (You know this is true.)

Anyway, the mindvirus won't die, but can draw a clean line: People who bought into it, may be stuck in it. And this means all their progeny. No backpeddling allowed.





But why are Brokpa being treated as a precious "scheduled tribe" by the Indian govt, whose 'unique identity' has to be carefully maintained, when this has been totally subverted: their sense of identity is no longer what it used to be, but has been perverted to totally alien notions. They're not what they used to be/were meant to be. What they have become - oryanists, believers in their sudden oryanism - does NOT have to be maintained.

And are Hindu taxpayers' money going to preserving such oryanism? Then again, Indian oryanists will probably gladly pay for more of their "long-lost pure oryan brethren". Indian oryanists are after all no different from alien ones.





Anyway, pity that Bon in India is being subverted too. Everything in India has become subverted.

Silver lining: thankfully, Bon still survives in pockets of China proper (i.e. beyond Tibet). No Buddhist influence. No oryanism either. (The Chinese Bon are not Dards but are Sino-Tibetan.)



But again: has no one wondered why there is a disparity between the "proto-Rigvedic" "pure Aryans" that the Dardic-speaking Brokpa supposedly are, and their Bon religion? I.e. the disparity between their alleged IE ethnicity and the "marked traces" of their non-IE yet "ancestral" Bon religion?

- Is the working theory that they merely borrowed it from their Sino-Tibetan neighbours, while keeping their "IE" tongue

- Or is Bon the next non-IE Asian religion earmarked for conversion into sudden "IE religion" status?



(=the reason for this post).





Methinks oryanists will use the Drokpa/Brokpa to claim Bon as an IE religion next. (They're always envious of any impressive heathenism not yet subordinated to oryanism.)

Wonder to what extent the "traces" of pre-Buddhist religion detected are actually Bon and, more importantly, how far back it goes among them: to what extent it actually is a truly ancestral religion of the Indic-looking among Brokpa, and not adopted. Clearly, they adopt novel self-perceptions quite easily: moving from claiming ancestry from Alexander's men to believing the claims that they're pure Oryans. And they've adopted Buddhism to some degree, so they could easily have merely adopted Bon some time in the past, perhaps not even long ago.





6. In this next page featuring images of Kalash Kafirs, oddly/predictably, all are handpicked images of the most-European looking among the Kalash.



s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5066996/1/

It's always pictures of children only. Show me some adults that fair.



Their faces look like Armenians or Turks anyway.

(Then again, Armenia is close enough to that region. Besides, some Armenians look Indian or Iranian, others look Russian. They may have a large range of phenotypes, alternatively Armenia may be so owing to historical factors, like Tajikistan where Russians settled.)



And also one image among them, so far, has been identified as having been photoshopped to turn a Kalash Kafir into a more European-looking entity, as discussed at

• s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5066996/3/
  
  
• s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5066996/4/
  
  
  
  

s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5066996/3/





z3.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p468713/arya2.jpg labelled "photoshopped"



vs





img.webme.com/pic/i/imtiazalichitral/kalash_b.jpg labelled "not photoshopped" (original)



Oddly/predictably again, the photoshopped version is the very first image that currently appears when googling for Kalash of Chitral, though sourced from somewhere else of course: nativepakistan.com/wp-content/uploads/Kalash-Photos-Chitral-A-Kalash-girl-with-green-eyes-Kalash-Valleys-Pictures.jpg, taken from nativepakistan.com/kalash-valleys-of-chitral-pakistan/



(Must be due to oryanism)





s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5066996/4/

Also, here is the original link. It is the real picture.



img.webme.com/pic/i/imtiazalichitral/kalash_b.jpg



Indians don't want to make them look darker and none of the Euros portray them as very Euro looking other than some "Aryan wannabe" fringe minority.



(Actually, Europeans do...



But Indians - don't know about oryanists - wouldn't want to change the appearance of the Kalash, as Kalash are not Indians, they're well ... Kalash Kafirs. A separate identity. With their own religion, own history, distinct from both Indians/Afghans and Iranians/Tajiks. But the Kalash would be a population related to these, since they're in that middle region.)



Kalash might be very fair skinned but the majority doesn't have colored hair or eyes. Brown eyes and brown hair are the majority whether you believe it or not.





Anyways, the reason there are so many blonde hair and blue eyed Kalash pictures online are because the travelers and foreigners snapping pictures of Kalash tend to focus on the more "exotic" blonde hair/red haired and blue/green eyed ones rather than the more average brown/black haired and brown eyed ones.



These women and children are more representative of the Kalash than the ones below.

[...]

(Lots of images)

Also, were there any photos from before the nazi era that give an indication of Kalash' appearance? What if German/Euro nazi tourists went off to breed with the Kalash in exchange for remuneration too - as they're doing with the Brokpa - or even settled there, in search of more "pure oryanism"?

Have to wonder now.

Also, that other person's question was actually valid and is related: why do the pictures of the fair-haired/most European looking persons tend to be of youngsters? Are they recent products of opportunistic aliens trying to become part of what they think is the "pure oryan" experience?

Or even, are aliens trying to alter the population by interference (easy enough to do with such tiny populations), the way aliens seem to want to project Kalash Kafirs as European rather than as Kalash Kafirs by focusing on the more 'European' looking people among them.



Not really Hindus' problem, I suppose. Kalash can look after themselves - or not (the way modern Indians can't either). But not feeling much much sympathy for allegedly "pagan" people who fall for every subversion in the book ranging from "You're Greeks from Alexander's era" to "You're Oryans". Experiencing decreasing sympathy for Indians too - for the same reason. Subvertibility is unattractive, and is frankly very scary.





ADDED:

7. s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5281391/1/



One of the images is of the "Rabari" community of India.

Description says:

(static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/11/8/1383871778189/Dissapearing-lives-005.jpg)



Rabari, India: For almost 1,000 years, the people of the Rabari tribe have roamed the deserts and plains of what is today western India. Now found largely in Gujarat and Rajasthan, it is believed that they migrated from the Iranian plateau more than a millennium ago. Their name means ‘outsider’ and traditionally they were camel herders, crossing desert areas that were off-limits to other tribal groups.

Didn't know Iranians looked so very typically-Indian as to be totally indistinguishable from the avg Indian altogether...



On the other hand, Wackypedia doesn't seem to know (yet) of the supposed Iranian origins attributed to them (not sure by whom). Wackypedia does state a different oral tradition among them concerning their origins, however:



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabari

Origin

The Rabari myth of origin is that Shiva put them on earth to tend to the camels owned by Parvati.[1]



1. Street (2002), p. 29

Street, Brian V. (2002), Literacy and Development: Ethnographic Perspectives, Routledge, ISBN 9781134566204

Bose, N. K. (1937), Structure of Hindu Society, Delhi: Oriental Longman

Hmmm. Having said all that, even though comments at the s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5281391/1/ site also take the allusion to "Iranian Plateau" so literally as to conclude that its implication was that the Rabari allegedly came to India from Iran/Persia some 1000 years ago, perhaps merely the full/technical (geological) meaning of "Iranian Plateau" is meant: in which case, it's simply that part of the Eurasian Plate that extends into west of Indus. And west of Indus is still Bharatam, not Persia.



Still, don't know why the description of the Rabaris could not simply have stated that they migrated from a stone's throw away into Gujarat, i.e. within the subcontinent.



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Plateau

The Iranian Plateau,[1][2] is a geological formation in Western Asia and Central Asia. It is the part of the Eurasian Plate wedged between the Arabian and Indian plates, situated between the Zagros Mountains to the west, the Caspian Sea and the Kopet Dag to the north, the Hormuz Strait and Persian gulf to the south and the Indus River to the east in Pakistan.



As a historical region, it includes Parthia, Media, Persis, the heartlands of Iran and some of its recently lost territories.[3] The Zagros Mountains form the plateau's western boundary, and its eastern slopes may be included in the term. The Encyclopædia Britannica excludes "lowland Khuzestan" explicitly[4] and characterizes Elam as spanning "the region from the Mesopotamian plain to the Iranian Plateau".[5]



From the Caspian in the northwest to Baluchistan in the south-east, the Iranian Plateau extends for close to 2,000 km. It encompasses the greater part of Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan parts of west of the Indus River on an area roughly outlined by the quadrangle formed by the cities of Tabriz, Shiraz, Peshawar and Quetta containing some 3,700,000 square kilometres (1,400,000 sq mi). In spite of being called a "plateau", it is far from flat but contains several mountain ranges, the highest peak being Damavand in the Alborz at 5610 m, and the Lut basin east of Kerman in Central Iran falling below 300 m.