01-25-2004, 05:03 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-25-2004, 05:09 AM by muddur.)
Power punch in every word of Tegh Bahadur Sahib's words ...
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->When the guru was eventually taken into custody and brought before the Moslem
ruler in Delhi, he was offered one of three options: 1) Accept Islam and be
given part of the empire and all the comforts of life; 2) Show a miracle proving
holiness and be released; or, 3) Be prepared to face death. The Sikh leader
replied: <!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>1) "I cherish my faith and I am not prepared to give it up. Forcing someone to give up one's faith is not only a sin but rather a deadly sin and such interference is against the principles of a true religion";
2) "Showing a miracle is against the will of Waheguru and is act of shame and cowardice. The real miracle is to be truthful and attain union with Waheguru" and,
3) "The threat of physical death ossesses no terror for me. You make your preparations and you shall also see the miracle."</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Needless to say, Aurangzeb decided to try more brutal methods to force Tegh
Bahadur Sahib to accept Islam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's always my feeling and belief that either the weak or the opportune one's got converted to Islam during that period, in India. They are the one's who are at the helm in Islamabad as of now. The decendents of the weak and opportune ones, they appear strong but they are rather brittle.
From Deccan Herald
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Mughal emperorâs kin seeks Sikhsâ pardon
Â
Amritsar, April 14: The wife of a descendant of the Mughals on Wednesday paid obeisance at the Akal Takht, marking a historic moment in time as she sought pardon for the atrocities committed by her ancestors.
Sultana Begum, the widow of Mirza Mohammed Bedar Bakht, great grandson of Bahadur Shah Zafar, the last recognised Mughal emperor, arrived in this Sikh holy city on Tuesday night just when everybody had given up hope.
âI am feeling relieved,â she said after paying homage at the Golden Temple.Sultana Begum left for Delhi on Wednesday to seek forgiveness at Gurudwara Sis Ganj in Chandni Chowk where the ninth Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur was beheaded on the orders of Aurengzeb.
âI am not doing it for any kind of publicity. I had this heartfelt desire to seek forgiveness because our family has suffered a lot of misery,â she said. She did not meet any Sikh religious leaders.âI hope the community forgives our lineage and hatred for the Mughals is no longer there. Islam doesnât permit cruelty against anyone,â she said. Mother of five daughters and a son, who works as a cook in Saudi Arabia, Sultana Begum also went to the Durgiana temple here.
âI belong to a royal lineage. Look at my pathetic condition, living in poverty. I only have a tea-stall in Howrah.âHer plight was highlighted last year after which she got a financial assistance of Rs 50,000 from the Central government.
âSince I am a descendant from the Mughal family, the government should give me two bighas of land and a Rs 50,000 monthly pension,â she demanded. Sultana Begumâs apology at the Golden Temple here marks one more event in the tumultuous history of the Sikhs and the Mughal emperors, who reigned over India for seven generations.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Punjab puzzle:
http://www.airavat.com/Punjabi%20Muslims.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->How is one to explain the survival of Hindu and semi-Hindu powers in these frontier areas long after the invasion of the Muslim Turks? It seems that the Turks in India usually looked for wealthy bases where they could live and finance their wars of expansion. Such bases were mostly in the Gangetic plains and not in these frontier lands (the Punjab then was an infertile plain covered with forests and scrub).
How do the Pakistani historians look on these local powers? They usually water down any reference to revolts or wars and instead describe this period as, continuation of Muslim rule by different Muslim dynasties. The uncomfortable facts of Sumras and Lankahs being nominal Muslims and of their not behaving as true Islamic Kings are not acknowledged. Thus the one thing that the locals of these areas should be proud of is denied to them by the Pakistani establishment, which is obsessed by the idea of we-are-all-of-foreign-descent.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Far from resisting the invaders, they meekly submitted and allowed their homes to be trodden under foreign heels. Imagine if they had joined the Sikhs in resisting foreign rule? Imagine if they had together defeated the Afghans, then the Marathas would not have had to waste resources in defending Punjab (a direct cause of the third battle of Panipat in 1761); they could have turned their energies against the quietly advancing British in the East.
The Pakjabis deride memories of Sikh rule and have only abuse for Maharaja Ranjit Singh. If only they had used this energy in fighting for their land they could have had a share in ruling Punjab; they chose not to and so suffered the consequences.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pakistani muslim.
i am mughal of blood, but dont support the acts of my forefathers against the hindus or the sikkhs. i want to say, that sikkh history is a pride to both pakistan and india. it was here the biggest resistance were made, it was here bhagat singh came from and from here the areas of delhi, lahore , chandisgarh , amritsar and silakot where the greatest riots were against british raj
the sikkh history needs to be in history books both in india and pakistan
Indians must salute Guru Tegbahadur for his sacrifice.
Had he succumbed, sikhism may have perished and India weakened to a breaking point. Just imagine borders of Pakistan including present Punjab and perhap including Delhi.
^^ what if i say
just imagine borders of india upto the indus river... thanx to qasim it aint possible...
why think like that. we are the same people. dont think negativelly.
<!--QuoteBegin-Morg+Dec 16 2004, 12:24 AM-->QUOTE(Morg @ Dec 16 2004, 12:24 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> ^^ what if i say
just imagine borders of india upto the indus river... thanx to qasim it aint possible...
why think like that. we are the same people. dont think negativelly. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK Morg, If we are the 'same people' what was the need for Pakistan? I am all ears.
becouse some said we ARE NOT SAME PEOPLE. therefore it were need for a pakistan
<!--QuoteBegin-Morg+Dec 22 2004, 05:01 AM-->QUOTE(Morg @ Dec 22 2004, 05:01 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> becouse some said we ARE NOT SAME PEOPLE. therefore it were need for a pakistan <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Some people" eh ? how many people makes a 'some' ? how many of the 140 million in pak really feel they are same as Indians culturally or ideologically?
ethnic punjabis , muhajirs, kashmiris, ethnic sindhis ...
<!--QuoteBegin-Morg+Dec 25 2004, 12:47 AM-->QUOTE(Morg @ Dec 25 2004, 12:47 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> ethnic punjabis , muhajirs, kashmiris, ethnic sindhis ... <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, are you saying a majority of Pakistanis DID NOT want pakistan?
Do they still feel they are living in an artificial country created by a FEW jealots like Jinnah?
<!--QuoteBegin-Morg+Dec 25 2004, 12:47 AM-->QUOTE(Morg @ Dec 25 2004, 12:47 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> ethnic punjabis , muhajirs, kashmiris, ethnic sindhis ... <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FYI, Kashmiris are not Pakistanis. They are Indians as much as I am. Hence saying that their feeling that kashmiris and Indians are one and the same is to restate a fact.
As for the others, I would encourage the others who feel they are the same as Indains to take up the case with present Musharraf Dictatorship and express their thoughts as a state policy.
Afterall, it was musharraf who said 'It's the rule of the Majority and not that of the minority.'
Can you take this case up for me with your Pakistani sisters/brothers Morg ?
@ashok kumar
yaar look here. yo udont need to have that lingo on jinnah, i didnt said anything stupid against mahatama gandhi jee ok?
what i say, we feel indias as in culture , not as a nation. india is the name of the region given by the goras. thats why we feel indian couse at that time there were no india or pakistan it were the british raj.
and jinnah represented the majoritys voice. it is proven in the elections.
@sunder.
brother are you sikkh? just courious
what musshy says i dont stand for, hes a leader just as indira were for india or vajepaye , a leader dont necesarry represent the voice of the majority. and hes really a dictatore i agree.
http://www.northeasttribune.com/3817.htm
Sikhs who enjoy doing bihu, not bhangra
Parbina Rashid
Who says one has to know Punjabi or bhangra to be called a Sikh? Here is this community in Assam, which enjoys doing Bihu, has no knowledge of Punjabi language or culture yet follows Sikh teachings with rigidity, which is no way less than the Sikhs in Punjab. Displaced from their place of origin centuries ago, this community of Assamese Sikhs living in a remote area of Nowgoan district are often dubbed and ridiculed by their counterparts here as 'second-class Sikhs'.
A whopping number of about 10,000 Assamese Sikhs are mainly concentrated in Nowgaon district. Their turbans may not go well with their Mongoloid features and sparse beards, and may even fetch them belittling remarks from other Sikhs yet they remain a proud race. "Our forefathers came to Assam centuries ago to rescue the Assamese people from foreign invasion and that makes us feel proud. As far as our religion is concerned, we have been following it with utmost devotion," says one of the Assamese Sikhs, voicing the general sentiment of his community.
And these Sikhs donât feel nostalgic about being away from Punjab, its culture and its people. "We are Assamese who are following the Sikh religion. We have adopted this place as our own, as we have been living here for generations."
So let not appearances throw you off gear as you enter the house of one of these families. You are not likely to be greeted with a glass of water or soft drink but with a sarai containing betel nut and paan â the traditional offering made by the Assamese. Even the lady of the house looks like just any other Assamese married women â adorned with sindoor and clad in mekhla â chaddar, the traditional Assamese dress â till your eyes rest on the tiny kirpan tucked under the chaddar.
Then come the male folk and you heave a sigh of relief â some similarities at last â the turban and the beard (though sparse) is there. But even with them you will not be able to strike a conversation in Punjabi. And what is more, their names also have an Assamese accent to it.
As you take a peep into their customs, you realise that they have not only assimilated themselves into the Assamese society to a large extent but have also remained loyal to their religion. They celebrate both Magh Bihu and Lohri, which fall on the same day â January 13. With equal enthusiasm they celebrate both Gurpurb and Shankar Dev's tithi as well as participate in Bohag Bihu and Durga Puja, the two most widely celebrated festivals of Assam.
"We have never felt that we are not a part of the Assamese society and at the same time we have been faithful to our religion," says an office bearer of the Assam Sikh Association. "But it hurts us when we are called âduplicate Sikhsâ or âsecond class Sikhsâ by our counterparts in Punjab," he adds.
"In fact in some respects, we are more staunch than the Punjabi Sikhs," says Jaswant Kaur. "We may not speak the language but we follow our religious book very seriously. Most of us are amritdharis, as it is our custom to partake of amrit before we get married," she adds. And they are proud of their heritage too. Visit any of the families in Borkola and you are likely to hear this line over and over again: "when Giani Zail Singh visited Borkola in 1975, he was surprised at the way we are following the Guru Granth Sahib."
The settlement of this community in Assam can be traced back to the third Burmese attack when King Viswanarayan Singh of the Ahom tribe sought Maharaja Ranjit Singh's help to defeat the Burmese army. It was around that time when 500 soldiers were sent under the leadership of Chetan Singh. They crossed the Brahmaputra and Kalang rivers and reached Chaparmukh. After defeating the Burmese, most of them settled there. General Chetan Singh died in the war but his wife who is known as 'Mataji' survived. Most of the Sikhs of Assam are descendents of Mataji and considered as upper class Sikhs for their pure lineage. There is yet another branch of Assamese Sikhs which is not so pure in its lineage. One Ram Singh who went to Assam in the year 1823 got married to an Assamese girl and settled in Borkola.
Mataji Gurdwara in Borkola village is the most popular Sikh shrine in this region. The site where a gurdwara now stands in Dhubri district was visited by Guru Teg Bahadur. The local Sikhs are full of the miracles he performed during his stay there. However the ultimate pilgrimage for them still is the Golden Temple in Amritsar.
Gurudwaras of Delhi
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Delhi is perhaps the only city to have not one or two but nine important Gurudwaras, which are places of pilgrimage for Sikhs from around the world. While the non-Sikh denizens of Delhi whiz past these hallowed shrines, not many know of the rich histrio-religious legacy of these Gurudwaras.
Guru Nanak is said to have arrived in Delhi near a well. Gurudwara Nanak Piau, north of Subzi Mandi, near Rana Pratap Bagh, is where he is said to have drawn water from the well and served it to travellers and others to quench their thirst. A congregation soon formed and the Guru is said to have propagated the tenets of the Sikh faith here. Today, Gurudwara Nanak Piau is a large Gurudwara befitting the number of pilgrims who congregate here.
The other holy shrine associated with Guru Nanak is the Gurudwara Majnu Tila situated on the banks of the river Yamuna near Chandrawal village. In the year in which Guru Nanak Dev came to Delhi, a Muslim ascetic used to live in the area. The ascetic had a great desire to see God. He performed many austerities and consequently had a lean body famished with austerities. He was called Majnu after the lover of Persian folklore. Guru Nanak held long discourses with Majnu and showed him the path of right devotion to God instead of renunciation and self-immolation.
Majnu's humble hermitage became a missionary centre of Guru Nanak's faith. Guru Hargobind stayed here before and after his imprisonment in Gwalior Fort. In the sanctum of Gurudwara Majnu Tila is a small room with a globular dome above and a passage around it. Baisakhi is celebrated here every year and thousands gather to pray at the Gurudwara.
Today, while the Gurudwara is architecturally in a perfect state. It is difficult to visit the place as it is situated on the west bank of possibly India's most polluted river, the Yamuna. A terrible stench rises from the Yamuna making it difficult for any visitor to stand there. And if anybody gathers the courage to look at the river, terribly filthy sights abound. A sewer flows the choicest of untreated sewage directly into the already polluted river. Plastic abounds, dozens of crows check the sewer out for something edible and they are rarely disappointed. Unfortunately, the state of the Yamuna at Majnu ka Tila is the same as anywhere else in Delhi. The "Clean Yamuna" campaigns have failed here too like everywhere else.
To the south of Humayun's tomb lies Gurudwara Bala Sahib, on the site where Guru Har Kishan was cremated. While he was in Delhi, a severe epidemic of cholera and smallpox hit Delhi. At the time he was just eight years old and began attending patients and giving them succour irrespective of caste or religion. The Muslims of Delhi were deeply touched with the pure humanitarian outlook of the Guru. He came to be called the Child Prophet or Bala Pir, hence the name of the Gurudwara. Mata Sundari and Mata Sahib Devan were also cremated here and their samadhis are also in the Gurudwara's compound.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In this corner of Punjab, the latest sardars come from Bihar
To be âlike everyone else,â Bihar migrants convert to Sikhism in Jalandhar villages
ANJU AGNIHOTRI CHABA
Posted online: Sunday, April 03, 2005 at 0205 hours IST
TALHAN (JALANDHAR) I APRIL 2: A straggly beard sprouting from the chin, yellow saafa on the head and a kirpan slung across, Vijay Singh looks every bit a devout Sikh as he greets you with a booming ââSat Sri Akal.ââ
He is from Kangnaghat in Bihar and he is a new convertâone of the scores of Biharis who have converted to Sikhism in the cash-rich NRI belt of Doaba. Itâs not just about faith but also about economicsâand respect, they say.
Thirteen years ago, when Vijay came to Jalandhar as a farm labourer, his only aim was to earn enough to feed his family back in Bihar. Today, sitting in his modest house built on 350 sq yards that heâs bought, he says how he started visiting the Talhan gurdwara in his lonely evenings. ââI canât put it into words.. sab kuch apna lagne laga,ââ says Vijay who speaks fluent Punjabi.
But the thought of conversion had never occurred to him until one day in the summer of 2003 when during a dispute over Talhan gurdwara, he found himself being turned out of the langar hall by policemen who called him an outsider.
ââI was shocked, for the village community and the priest used to treat me and my family as their own.ââ Fifteen days later, Vijay went to Anandpur Sahib, the birthplace of the Khalsa, with his wife and three sons, and got baptised.
He admits the news did take his relatives back home by surprise, but his father was a big support. ââWhen I returned to my village, he told me how Guru Gobind Singh, the founder of Sikhism, was also born at Patna, and it was OK.ââ
At Talhan and its surrounding villages like Giljian, Jamsher, Randhawa Masanda, Bolina, Nagal Shama, etc, there are a number of âBihariâ Sikhs. In Talhan alone, there are a number of âBihariâ Sikhs. In Talhan alone, there are at least 10 newly converted families.
Bibi Jagir Kaur, president of Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC), when contacted, said these conversions are purely voluntary. ââNot in a single case have the gurdwara authorities tried to influence these people. But I am glad more and more are gravitating towards the teachings of the gurus.ââ
Ajay, now Ajay Singh, from Bihar, agrees. ââI was never told by the people at the gurdwara to change my religion though I used to hang around a lot with them. I did it because I wanted to be like everyone here.ââ Though clean-shaven Sikhs are quite the norm in Doaba, the hub of non-resident Indians, these workers seem to prefer the turban.
Take Mangal Singh Dhillon, earlier Mangal Sahu, of Giljian village. Hailing from a village near Patna, heâs grown his hair and ties a turban, without getting baptised. ââSo what,ââ he asks you. ââIâve been looking after the land and property of an NRI Sikh family in this village for almost two decades now. I feel I have also become a sardar.ââ
The turban has brought Rajinder Singh the respect heâd always craved. ââI used to hate it when people called me a bhaiya,ââ he frowns, telling you how he is more at peace with his âSardarjiâ status. Vijay agrees. ââPehle lok sanu Bihari Bhaiya kehnde see par hun sanu Giani ji te Khalsa Ji kehnde ne (Earlier people used to call us Bihari Bhiaya but now they call us Giani Ji or Khalsa Jiââ).
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> ââI used to hate it when people called me a bhaiya,ââ he frowns, telling you how he is more at peace with his âSardarjiâ status. Vijay agrees. ââPehle lok sanu Bihari Bhaiya kehnde see par hun sanu Giani ji te Khalsa Ji kehnde ne (Earlier people used to call us Bihari Bhiaya but now they call us Giani Ji or Khalsa Jiââ). <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In Punjab, all non Punjabi north Indians are called Bhaiya and South Indian "Madrasi". <!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Acharya,
If a person becomes a Sikh from Sanatani or vice versa, I don't understand why do you call this a conversion. Sanatan Dharma is not the whole of Hindu Dharma and Samaj but it's largest numerical component. The Bauddhas, Jains, Sikhs and others are Hindus too. This is proven in the historical perspective as in the ritual prone Hindu Samaj inter marriage and inter dining was freely permitted within these communities. There are many families in NW India where some brothers are sardars and some are sanatanis. And they are not treated as different. Also remember the holiest Sikh shrine in Amritsar is called Shri Harimandir/Harmandir Saheb. The english word 'conversion ' has two distinct connotations in the Indian context. One is Dharmantar-total secession from the beliefs and values of the Hindu Samaj, like converting to Islam and Christianity. The other may be termed as Diksha-initiation into another section of the Hindu/Indian group of faiths than the one he or she is born into. It is like a Roman Catholic becoming a Methodist or a Baptist. Guru Nanak Dev's concept of faith was actually a follow up of the formless worship of the advaitavadin/nirakarvadin tradition of the Upanishads - opposed to the image worshipping ritualistic traditions of the puranas.
Mitra if Sikhs as u say r Hindus then why don't they accept it, they do not want to be called Hindus so why should we force some label on them that they don't want to identify with. The controversy abt this came to the fore recently when VHP said that Sikhs were Hindus and the sgpc was quick to say that Sikhs are not Hindus and that Sikhism is a separate religion. Hindus should come to terms with reality, no amount of wishful thinking can change the fact that Sikhs are not Hindus because they say so.
Repeatedly trying to say that they are Hindus will only increase separatism among Sikhs, we already had the Khalistani movement, time Hindus concentrated on our own community instead of begging groups to be Hindus when they clearly say that they are not Hindus.
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