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Indian Space News and Discussion
#21
That makes at least 5 known satellites with specific military applications in orbit by india. The TecSAR is also possibly available for Indian use. Cartosat 2B will be the 7th spy satellite in orbit by India. The earlier IRS series of which at least 5 remain in orbit also have rudimentary military applications in required.(Other than the TES and Cartosats which are also IRS series satellites)



1. TES - Launched 22 Oct 2001

2. Cartosat 1 - 5 May 2005

3. Cartosat 2 - 10 Jan 2007

4. TecSAR - 21 Jan 2008

5. Cartosat 2A - 28 April 2008 (The famous 10 simultaneous launch on PSLV-c9)

6. RISAT-2 - 20 April 2009

7. Cartosat 2B - Feb 2010 (proposed)
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#22
[quote name='Arun_S' date='28 January 2010 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1264708995' post='103759']

[url="http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Outside_View_Obama_and_India_999.html"]http://www.spacewar...._India_999.html[/url]



[url="http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Outside_View_Obama_and_India_999.html"]Outside View: Obama and India[/url]

[/quote]

MMS gov has to be the most retarded gov to conclude such deals.I lost all my words <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Sad' />
  Reply
#23
[quote name='Chandragupta' date='09 February 2010 - 03:15 AM' timestamp='1265665027' post='104018']

MMS gov has to be the most retarded gov to conclude such deals.I lost all my words <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Sad' />

[/quote]



Indian people get the politicians they deserve

(based on people's intelligence to vote based on media hype and cheap politicking, and no expectation of accountability).



Sad but real.
  Reply
#24
Err,



But what does the GoI have to do with Malaysia or Taiwan not launching satellites via ISRO?

It is a failure of Indian diplomacy that these nations did not go ahead with the launches in part.

But a larger portion of the blame lies with these nations that they chose to come under US pressure in this regard, and on the US if indeed they blocked any such launches by ISRO.



I don't forsee things becoming any easier for ISRO in the near future either. The western economies have been really hit hard and Obama's speech did have references to making sure that nations and customers stayed loyal to the US and for the US to bear down on nations and customers in this regard.



The only message that gets conveyed here is that India needs to grow more diplomatically by ensuring that these nations have a stake in India's success.
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#25
I was reading the Cold start doctrine article (A Cold Start for Hot Wars? - Walter C. Ladwig III). He mentions that during the 5 major exercises in recent years, the volume of data transfer that the various army formations had in the form of video conferences and other C4I data, required that the Indian armed forces have the equivalent of three dedicated mil communation satellites in the event of all out hostilities.



The Navy and the Airforce have announced their getting their own mil satellites. I assume these will be geostationary comm satellites for communications only. Or are they for any other use? The recon satellites are separate, and one doubts that any arm will have control over them.
  Reply
#26
[quote name='gagan' date='09 February 2010 - 07:14 AM' timestamp='1265679405' post='104026']

I was reading the Cold start doctrine article (A Cold Start for Hot Wars? - Walter C. Ladwig III). He mentions that during the 5 major exercises in recent years, the volume of data transfer that the various army formations had in the form of video conferences and other C4I data, required that the Indian armed forces have the equivalent of three dedicated mil communation satellites in the event of all out hostilities.



The Navy and the Airforce have announced their getting their own mil satellites. I assume these will be geostationary comm satellites for communications only. Or are they for any other use? The recon satellites are separate, and one doubts that any arm will have control over them.

[/quote]



Satellite have transponders that are digitally encoded (they are digital channels), so one can dynamically or statically configure those transponders to carry many narrowband voice channels, or some medium or high capacity video channel.



I had earlier suggested that the geo-stationary components (IIRC 3 of the satellites are geostationary) of the IRNSS constellation (which is military satellites in the first place) can easily be made multifunction and provide few transponders for military data network.
  Reply
#27
Is IRNSS purely military? Or does it have usages beyond military use?

GAGAN for instance, will it use the IRNSS platform?



If IRNSS is going to have civilian uses, it is not wise to use them for mil specific communications.



ISRO and India can easily afford dedicated mil comm satellites. Yes the IRNSS can carry additional transponders which can be used as back ups for the various INSAT series in orbit.
  Reply
#28
[quote name='Gagan' date='09 February 2010 - 06:27 PM' timestamp='1265719760' post='104040']

Is IRNSS purely military? Or does it have usages beyond military use?

GAGAN for instance, will it use the IRNSS platform?



If IRNSS is going to have civilian uses, it is not wise to use them for mil specific communications.



ISRO and India can easily afford dedicated mil comm satellites. Yes the IRNSS can carry additional transponders which can be used as back ups for the various INSAT series in orbit.

[/quote]



One to assess the situation is to ask:

  1. For civilian applications what does IRNSS provide that GPS and GLONASS does not provide?
  2. Conversely for military applications what does IRNSS provide that GPS and GLONASS does not provide?
GAGAN was developed and continues to live off GPS.
  Reply
#29
[size="6"]India develops electronic intelligence tech for surveillance[/size]





India has developed a new generation satellite-fitted electronic intelligence system for surveillance applications to keep an eye on hostile neighbours, key defence officials said today.



The system has been developed by Hyderabad-based Defence Electronics and Research Laboratory (DLRL) under the Defence Research and Development Organisation, sources told PTI.



A DRDO source termed a satellite fitted with this system as a "spy satellite". The electronic intelligence system on board a satellite takes images of "resources" of hostile countries as it passes over them from the space, they said.



According to sources, select countries such as the US, France and China are already using such type of system. India also has now designed, integrated and tested such a system.



DRDO is already in discussion with Bangalore-headquartered Indian Space Research Organisation in this regard, and the payload to be flown in one of the low earth observation satellites is expected to be ready by the end of the year.



Meanwhile, Director of Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) U K Revankar said the DRDO lab has developed new electronic warfare system for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas and it would be tested shortly.



Defence scientists are also working on technologies to intercept and jam network of satellite phones. "That project is going on. Within a year, it will be ready," an official said.



India has also developed a "penetration aid" that allows its aircraft to penetrate into enemy territory "without being identified by any of the radars," sources said.



As part of counter-measures against hostile missiles, a consortium comprising of Bharat Electronics Limited, DLRL, DARE and Electronic Corporation of India Limited (ECIL) has been formed to develop systems to divert missiles from various platforms.



"There are a large number of helicopters which require radar warning receivers and also missile approach warning system for helicopters," a defence official said.



www.business-standard.com/india/news/india-develops-electronic-intelligence-tech-for-surveillance/85331/on
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#30
These are dedicated ELINT satellites I think and not Imaging/SAR satellites which India has couple in orbit.



Depending on the foot print it covers , its good to sniff out RF targets download it at Delhi for further analysis



What India really needs is the ability to intercept in real time commercial satellite phone widely used by anti-national elements atleast that can cover our geographical area and neighbours.



After 26/11 we got data from US which has this capability to monitor such communication.
  Reply
#31
[quote name='Austin' date='13 February 2010 - 12:36 PM' timestamp='1266044282' post='104176']

These are dedicated ELINT satellites I think and not Imaging/SAR satellites which India has couple in orbit.



Depending on the foot print it covers , its good to sniff out RF targets download it at Delhi for further analysis



What India really needs is the ability to intercept in real time commercial satellite phone widely used by anti-national elements atleast that can cover our geographical area and neighbours.



After 26/11 we got data from US which has this capability to monitor such communication.

[/quote]





India is a weakling that lacks comprehensive GEOINT (Geo-spatial Intelligence) capabilities as compared to US-UK-France-Canada-Russia in the absence of such orbital assets, as possessed by said countries.



Its time we conceptualize broad plan with wide spectrum on this - India needs to catch up on this big time because Israel has been replaced by India as a top turist terrorist destination for several years now.



India, in the past has given enough priorty to wheels, wings and water, its time we look above and listen around!



A fully dedicated listening ground facilties coupled with reconnaissance satellites is the name of the game for India now. They should hasten the pace n get Israel-Russian help in optronics n electronics to get going on this vital arm of the intelligence operation.



Eves dropping is thing of the past and the future is a la lacrosse!
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#32
[size="6"]New Sat Will Boost India's Surveillance, EW Plans[/size]





NEW DELHI - India is developing an advanced military surveillance satellite capable of picking up a conversation between two telephones as well as taking high-resolution pictures.



The Communication-Centric Intelligence Satellite (CCI-Sat) will be launched into orbit in 2014, said a senior scientist at the state-owned Defence Electronics and Research Laboratory, Hyderabad, which is developing the $25 million satellite.



The CCI-Sat is part of a high-priority plan to develop electronic warfare (EW) systems for India's Army, Navy and Air Force, the scientist said.



Meanwhile, India is ready to put into orbit another homemade satellite, Cartosat-2B, in the next two months. That satellite also will be used for military purposes, Defence Electronics and Research Laboratory sources said.



Last year, India launched its made-in-India RISAT-2 military satellite, which is keeping a high-resolution eye on the country's borders and coastline in case of terrorist infiltrations.



Cartosat-2, like the U.S. satellite Ikonos, delivers 1-meter-resolution imagery, second only to the Quickbird, which offers an incredibly close 60-centimeter resolution - all from a distance of 800 kilometers to 900 kilometers above the Earth, said a scientist from the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO).



The ISRO and Defence Research and Development Organisation are collaborating on a dedicated naval satellite that will have a 1,000-nautical-mile footprint over the Indian Ocean. India also plans to launch that satellite this year.
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#33
[quote name='Austin' date='13 February 2010 - 12:36 PM' timestamp='1266044282' post='104176']

These are dedicated ELINT satellites I think and not Imaging/SAR satellites which India has couple in orbit.



Depending on the foot print it covers , its good to sniff out RF targets download it at Delhi for further analysis



What India really needs is the ability to intercept in real time commercial satellite phone widely used by anti-national elements atleast that can cover our geographical area and neighbours.



After 26/11 we got data from US which has this capability to monitor such communication.

[/quote]



ELINT is a good stat, but IMHO it will be basic capability.



As for space based communication intercept of terrestrial communication (a.k.a. microwave trunk links) that wil be in reach, however terrestrial personal mobile communication (its very unlikely).



Communication that is Low Observable in nature (E.g. Spread Spectrum, Frequency Hopping or FHSS) will be tough nut to crack, not to mention encrypted links.



OTOH, vanilla Paki Fauji communication and anything that has a radar is now RAW wound inviting attention.
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#34
What orbit will the ELINT satellite use? A geostationary orbit to snoop 24x7? A LEO will be hampered by low availability and lack of sustenence over a target area.



A geostationary satellite will possibly be useful only if the other party is using satellite based comms, and the geo sat can tap onto the signal. But will a geostationary satellite because of its altitude be able to tap field communications or those between home base and major corps? I suspect that telephone and data which is transferred over satellite transponders will be fair game. This will need software which will sift out the key words that one is looking for etc etc.



Any thoughts guru log?
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#35
Will ARC run this satellite? Since they seem to be the agency that traditionally does this sort of stuff.



Not only are the three forces getting dedicated satellites, there are several for geospatial surveillence, but now one for ELINT too.



Great going.



What's next?
  Reply
#36
[quote name='Gagan' date='14 February 2010 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1266151936' post='104208']

What orbit will the ELINT satellite use? A geostationary orbit to snoop 24x7? A LEO will be hampered by low availability and lack of sustenence over a target area.



A geostationary satellite will possibly be useful only if the other party is using satellite based comms, and the geo sat can tap onto the signal. But will a geostationary satellite because of its altitude be able to tap field communications or those between home base and major corps? I suspect that telephone and data which is transferred over satellite transponders will be fair game. This will need software which will sift out the key words that one is looking for etc etc.



Any thoughts guru log?

[/quote]



IMHO best ELINT orbit will be ~400 - 600 km that will allow picking up transmitting sources with ~ 2-10 watt EIRP. Yes that does require a constellation. But for Indian latitudes of concern, that is not too bad.



Yes GTO is way far.
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#37
How about ISRO send in a constellation of microsats, or smaller satellites, which'll function as receivers and transmit all data to appropriate ground station when they are in range. They can store data for the rest of the trip.



A satellite that has to function purely as an antenna, recording and transmitting device to gather ELINT, store it and then transmit it to a suitable ground station shouldn't need to be too big. Maybe these could be launched by the Agni 3x/5 series <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Tongue' />



How many sats will be required for a LEO constellation to give very good coverage?



BTW on google earth, one can see the ISRO MCF being enlarged > 3x times. Also the Chandrayaan deep space network dish antennas are visible in high res.
  Reply
#38
[quote name='Gagan' date='20 February 2010 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1266655127' post='104391']

How about ISRO send in a constellation of microsats, or smaller satellites, which'll function as receivers and transmit all data to appropriate ground station when they are in range. They can store data for the rest of the trip.



A satellite that has to function purely as an antenna, recording and transmitting device to gather ELINT, store it and then transmit it to a suitable ground station shouldn't need to be too big. Maybe these could be launched by the Agni 3x/5 series <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Tongue' />

[/quote]

Easier said than done.

ELINT signal is of very diverse modulation and it has large frequency bands of interest. One cant devise a storage system that absorbe that data rate, much less store it for few hrs duration to relay to ground station.



ELINT sat has to at least pre-process and tune in selective channels. Most ELINTs have on board processors to sieve the channel streams for intelligence. It is a power and processing hungry satellite. If you seen pics of some of the US military payloads, and its size atop launcher.



Think of ELINT as an autonomous (remotely controlled) AEW&C (AWACS), and consider the difference in architecture of Russian A-50 vs PHELCON. A-50 is a airboarn reciver where all processing is done on ground station, PHELCON processes it on board.
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#39
Having just one bird in a LEO is too less. Its like a taking a mug to empty an ocean! The revisit over a target area might take days even.



:-(
  Reply
#40
Found this on BR :



[url="http://indianspaceweb.blogspot.com/2010/02/indian-lunar-rockets.html"]Indian Moon Rockets: First Look[/url]



<img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Smile' /> <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Smile' /> <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Smile' />
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