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Indian Missile News And Discussion
Indo-French Maitri SR-SAM Awaits Workshare Clearance



Quote:According to sources at DRDO and MBDA, both sides have identified all collaborative development areas and are are fully prepared to complete development and the first phase of testing within three years from the time the project is given formal sanction by the Cabinet.



Quote:The ownership of the Maitri programme is envisaged as being fully Indian. With baseline technologies from the Trishul SAM programme, the Maitri programme basically envisages the sale of certain key technologies by MBDA to DRDO (seeker, endgame avionics, fire control system, composites for a modified propulsion system), though production will not be under a corporate joint venture on the lines of BrahMos, but would rather be carried out entirely by Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL), India's state-owned munitions production agency.



Quote:The Maitri is being built in two basic variants -- a ship-borne point defence and tactical air defence version for the Navy and a land-based self-propelled (wheeled and tracked) launcher-based system for the Air Force and Army.
  Reply
[quote name='ramana' date='11 February 2010 - 11:29 PM' timestamp='1265910672' post='104124']

Based on AIII and AII we can make some informed guesses on the payload. The AII payload at ~1 tonne(RV with HAE etc) is most definitely a fission or boosted fission based. The AIII with its 1.5 tonne (RV with HAE etc) is a boosted fission one based on scaling. The fact that its ment for specific country is interesting. The payload has to be credible to that country. And the interesting thing is AIII was first tested in 2006 or design started ~ 5 to 6 years. So the GOI reconciled to the POKII yields early on while the world was debating the results. Another interesting factor is that A-V is to have same payload as the AIII per the quoted news reports. So no one is betting their hat on capability to design TN upto 200kt hogwash. It also means the target planners have come up with the requirements and not the scientists.



"If you overfeed on hope you will die of starvation."

[/quote]



Press reports suggest that MIRV configuration is for Agni-V.



Rocksim indicates the recent test carried a far heavier payload (then the rated 1.5 tonne), in the range of 2490 Kg, which incidently is similar to earliest press report that stated payload figure of 2,490 Kg, and also 3,490 Kg.



It appears to me the MIRV payload will a mix of proven and bug-fixed TN. The proven warheads consisting of 50 kt FBF and 20 kT FBF weighing 250 kg and 100 kg respectively. In terms of destructive effect two 50 Kt warheads have the same effect as 150 kt warhead. Thus heavier FBF warheads of 200 kt or 150 kt would not be competitive.



The current FBF strategy would however require far larger quantity of weapon grade Plutonium extraction and far bigger count of warheads.



Thus heavier FBF warheads of 200 kt would however be more suitable fro single warhead configurations like Agni-II and Agni-III .



Excerpts from my Agni article that was earlier hosted on BR:



Quote:The missile supports a wide range of warhead configurations, with total strategic payload mass ranging from 600 kg to 1,800 kg[105]. High missile accuracy permits effective use by using conventional warhead reportedly ranging between 2490 -3490 Kg.



Quote:The first official confirmation on Agni-III payload types and weight came on 13-April-07 from Union Minister of State for Defence MM Pallam Raju who said "the strategic payload of the missile is between 100 kg to 250 kg".

Quote:INTRODUCTION: Agni-3++ / AGNI-IV

Security experts recognize that Indian nuclear scenario involves states that have nuclear weapons and those who have willingly proliferated nuclear weapons and nuclear technology to its client states to threaten India directly or with proxies. Indian nuclear deterrence is not a two-sum game[#134.A0], that runs risk of pre-emptive strike from wider geo-political players. India thus requires credible deterrence along 360° azimuth.



The two stage Agni-III would eventually evolve to a full range ICBM by addition of a one or two more stages

and reduced payload configuration. India may soon test[134] Agni-IV.



Agni-3B Configuration:

Agni-3B consisting of A2FS(S32), A3MUS(S9), A3CUS(S4), A3SUM(120-14) and MIRV-Mk4 payload. and MIRV-Mk2 payload.


  • Height: 17 m.
  • Mass: 51 ton
  • Performance: 8,100Km (1,500Kg)
  Reply
[quote name='ramana' date='12 February 2010 - 12:10 AM' timestamp='1265913160' post='104127']

Are they sticking to the 40m CEP for this test of A-III too?

meanwhile Pioneer reports



[/quote]



Quote:Similarly, the Agni-3 launch showed that its propulsion systems could take the missile to an altitude of more than 1,000 km thereby enabling India to develop anti-satellite capabilities.



China had displayed to the world last year its capabilities in this sphere when it shot down a satellite in space. However, the DRDO chief said India ‘need not do it’ as it had the building blocks for developing such a system. Elaborating upon on this, Saraswat said “it is difficult to shoot down a satellite as its debris can be dangerous. Therefore, we can simulate this capability through an electronic satellite and we have the capacities to do so.”



ROCKSIM indicates Agni propulsion system based 3 stage confign can easily tackle a satellite at 7,000 Km altitude orbit, at interception range of 2000 Km.
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[quote name='Arun_S' date='11 February 2010 - 12:59 PM' timestamp='1265872890' post='104113']

Also one would note very slight deviation from targeted trajectory as the missile gets near the apogee.



The range for this teat flight was definitely 2500 Km and not 3,500 km as reported. The video proves it.

[/quote]

Are you referring to this movement at the apogee? There was some variation in the altitude at the apogee in that video.



[Image: 91046325.jpg]
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[quote name='Gagan' date='12 February 2010 - 01:03 AM' timestamp='1265916331' post='104135']

Are you referring to this movement at the apogee? There was some variation in the altitude at the apogee in that video.





[/quote]



No, the subtle altitude jitter is mostly due to radar.



What I am mentioning is the projected (planned trajectory is shown in gray, and the actual path in red, and as it approached apogee the red line is slightly below gray line.
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Arun,You are right.

The actual payload capability of A-III is 2500KG +/- 50kg.DRDO was open on its payload specs.If you follows the reports and the mouthpiece of DRDO,all the were saying is that the pure warhead capability is some 1500kg this excludes all the penetration aids and decoys .



since DRDO dont want to go with full payload of nuclear warheads,it is making that limited numbers more reliable while giving it a chance to tackle ABM`s.

given the anti-ABM capability of AIII,I doubt that chinese will be able to intercept it atleast in the next decade.



DRDO is simply sacrificing a mere 1000kg for a safe nuking of adversary.
  Reply
Ramana:

Quote:One of the news reports says ~4km/sec for the RV.



Any idea what weight satellite the AIII is capable of launching?

I hope its at least ~250kg.

A-III can't launch satellites.



However a 3 stage Agni can launch 300 Kg satellite to 660 Km altitude orbit
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[size="4"][color="blue"][url="http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2010/02/11/stories/2010021153551100.htm"]Industry soars with Agni-III[/url] [/color][/size]



Quote: HINDU

M. Somasekhar



Hyderabad, Feb. 10



The successful completion of test flights of Agni-III, India's long range, nuclear-capable missile, also marks a significant contribution of Indian industry in establishing domestic capabilities.



More than 150 industries of different sizes, including 60-70 large private and public sector companies, were instrumental in fabricating small components to sub-assemblies to integrating the entire missile



Agni-III has a range of over 3,000 km and was successfully flight-tested on Sunday morning from Wheeler Island off Orissa coast.



Agni-III is fully an indigenous missile with design by the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) and products developed by domestic industry, said Mr Avinash Chander, Programme Director-Agni and Director, Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL).



“With three consecutive successful tests, including the latest one with the user, the Agni-III missile is ready for induction into the Indian defence forces”, Mr Chander told Business Line.



The global norm today for such a missile is to undertake 3-4 trials before declaring it ready for induction. In the case of Agni-III all the requirements have been met. The materials and technologies have also been demonstrated.



The success has also established the fact that “there is no technology gap as we go into the production phase. The public sector Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL), the lead integrator will produce the missile.” . DRDO has also developed and successfully tested Agni-I (range of 700 km) and Agni-II (above 2,000 km) and are in various phases of induction into the defence services.



Agni-III has also created a staging platform for Agni-V, the very long range missile that the DRDO is now working on. It also creates the [color="#800080"]capability for space deployment of micro to mini satellites at short notice as well as a range of other capabilities,[/color] Mr Chander said.



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[url="http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hticbm/articles/20100210.aspx"]The China Solution[/url]
Quote:The Agni III had some technical, and diplomatic problems, over the last four years. The technical difficulties were resolved. Indian diplomats, however, were upset over the fact that Agni III exists mainly for use against China. India is trying to develop better relations with China, and Indian diplomats argued for the cancellation of the Agni III project. At first, the government agreed, then quietly resumed work on the Agni III. Work is also underway on the Agni V, which would allow targets in Russia, Europe (Italy and points east), Japan and Africa to be hit. It's unsure what point the Indians are trying to make here.



The Agni I and II are sufficient to cover India's main enemy, Pakistan. The Agni III and V are both multi-stage, solid fuel missiles that can carry a 1.5 ton nuclear warhead. India makes no secret of the fact that Agni III is meant to deter aggression from China.



Love this comment from American reader



If they can just have a full scale live warhead test go off course and land along the paki-afghan border, we could help with the cleanup.
  Reply
[quote name='Mudy' date='11 February 2010 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1265941808' post='104146']

[url="http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hticbm/articles/20100210.aspx"]The China Solution[/url]



Love this comment from American reader




If they can just have a full scale live warhead test go off course and land along the paki-afghan border, we could help with the cleanup.

[/quote]



they believe in double standards and opportunism. They use different umbrellas for different shades.
  Reply
[quote name='Arun_S' date='12 February 2010 - 01:01 AM' timestamp='1265916223' post='104134']

ROCKSIM indicates Agni propulsion system based 3 stage confign can easily tackle a satellite at 7,000 Km altitude orbit, at interception range of 2000 Km.

[/quote]



For the above I assumed 300 Kg interceptor payload, and 150 kg for missile Nav and guidance.
  Reply
Arunji,



There is a russian launch vehicle Start-1 based on the topol icbm. This consists of the three stages of Topol icbm + an extra small stage. It sends 632kg to 200km @52 deg, 395kg to 600 km @52 deg and 295kg to 800km@52 deg orbits. Now, this is still somewhat smaller than a 3 stage agni. Moreover, the topol stages have relatvely poor Isp Vac 263 for first stage, 280 for stages 2 and 3.



How much will a 3 stage agni send to 200 km leo ? By 3 stage you mean Agni V ?
  Reply
Kritavarma ji,

In the following diagram (it is an old diagram from BR days) you can see that all the Agni-III missiles varients Agni-3A, 3C, 3SL are 3 stage configurations. However the upper stage is different on each one. Ranging from a full 2 meter dia composite stage, and couple of different sizes of SUM(Small Upper Motor located inside the nose cone shield), where in 3SL even teh first two stages are reduced length stages.



GoI seems to be referring to Agni V as a 3 stage missile with a 2 meter dia upper stage, thus closer to what earlier called as Agni-3A. As you can see there is no external appearance difference between Agni3A and 3B, the latter is a 4 stage vehicle with the fourth stage being a SUM located in the nose shield.



[url="http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c109/Arun_S/?action=view&current=A23_M51_Pontoon_r13d.jpg"][Image: th_A23_M51_Pontoon_r13d.jpg][/url]



Added later:

Agni-3A configuration with three large Agni-2 style RV is the base configuration of Agni-missile family (as confirmed by retired senior defense official to this author). And this very well be the 0.5 longer missile that V.K. Saraswat is pointing out. (My original line drawing expected it to be just 0.3 m longer and I am off by 0.2 meter. But considering the total length of Agni-3 it is ....... !
  Reply
[quote name='Kritavarma' date='12 February 2010 - 11:22 AM' timestamp='1265953473' post='104151']

Arunji,



There is a russian launch vehicle Start-1 based on the topol icbm. This consists of the three stages of Topol icbm + an extra small stage. It sends 632kg to 200km @52 deg, 395kg to 600 km @52 deg and 295kg to 800km@52 deg orbits. Now, this is still somewhat smaller than a 3 stage agni. Moreover, the topol stages have relatvely poor Isp Vac 263 for first stage, 280 for stages 2 and 3.



How much will a 3 stage agni send to 200 km leo ? By 3 stage you mean Agni V ?

[/quote]



~550 Kg payload to 200 km LEO, after accounting for ~180 kg for navigation and control avionics and batteries.





With following Agni configuration:



Payload = 750.0 Kg, Number of Stages = 4, Simulation Time Granularity = 0.100 Second

Launch Direction = 50 degrees-North, Launch Latitude = 22.00 degrees



Code:
Segment-Name ISP(Vac) ISP(SL) Stage-Mass Fuel-Fract Burn-Time Thrust-Direction Diameter    Length     ThrustOverdrive OverdrivePeriod

Stage1     269.0 237.0, 33,000.0     0.900     080.0 Sec 50.0 Degree 2.00 Meter 07.00 Meter 15.00 %     20.00 %

Stage2     290.0 190.0, 14,000.0     0.870     060.0 Sec 33.0 Degree 2.00 Meter 03.50 Meter 10.00 %     10.00 %

Stage3     290.0 200.0, 03,500.0     0.850     030.0 Sec 25.0 Degree 2.00 Meter 02.00 Meter 00.00 %     00.00 %
  Reply
[quote name='Arun_S' date='12 February 2010 - 01:32 AM' timestamp='1265959469' post='104153']

~550 Kg payload to 200 km LEO, after accounting for ~180 kg for navigation and control avionics and batteries.





With following Agni configuration:



Payload = 750.0 Kg, Number of Stages = 4, Simulation Time Granularity = 0.100 Second

Launch Direction = 50 degrees-North, Launch Latitude = 22.00 degrees



Code:
Segment-Name ISP(Vac) ISP(SL) Stage-Mass Fuel-Fract Burn-Time Thrust-Direction Diameter    Length     ThrustOverdrive OverdrivePeriod

Stage1     269.0 237.0, 33,000.0     0.900     080.0 Sec 50.0 Degree 2.00 Meter 07.00 Meter 15.00 %     20.00 %

Stage2     290.0 190.0, 14,000.0     0.870     060.0 Sec 33.0 Degree 2.00 Meter 03.50 Meter 10.00 %     10.00 %

Stage3     290.0 200.0, 03,500.0     0.850     030.0 Sec 25.0 Degree 2.00 Meter 02.00 Meter 00.00 %     00.00 %

[/quote]



this is more or less agni V, isnt it ? in the start-1 case, the small fourth stage had abt 2 tons propellant. maybe more. maybe that makes abig difference. Have you compared this with the israeli Shavit-2? They claim 300kg payload to leo with 143 degree inclination.....with a launch weight of 30 tons approx. westill have to catch up in payload/weight terms. still , 550 kg to 200 km leo would mean 800+ kg to a full icbm range. remember reading that the 1970s valiant project aimed for 500 kg to 8000 km...that too with a launh mass of 85 tons or so...
  Reply
Is 200km a LEO? I thought it was more like 200 nautical miles. At 200km the gravitational effects are quite large.
  Reply
[quote name='Kritavarma' date='12 February 2010 - 02:11 PM' timestamp='1265963616' post='104154']

this is more or less agni V, isnt it ?[/quote]

Yes, what is now called Agni-V.



Quote: in the start-1 case, the small fourth stage had abt 2 tons propellant. maybe more. maybe that makes abig difference. Have you compared this with the israeli Shavit-2? They claim 300kg payload to leo with 143 degree inclination.....with a launch weight of 30 tons approx. westill have to catch up in payload/weight terms. still , 550 kg to 200 km leo would mean 800+ kg to a full icbm range. remember reading that the 1970s valiant project aimed for 500 kg to 8000 km...that too with a launh mass of 85 tons or so...



This is conservative estimate. Note that Mass Fraction of 3'rd stage is only 0.85,(for stage with composite case of this size it could be higher) also the 13 tonne second stage is today made of maraging, and its MF could be ~ 0.89 (but one can account the interstage for slightly reduced MF). Overall no body knows the mass of other non-propulsion components.



No I have not compared it with Shavit-2.
  Reply
[quote name='ramana' date='12 February 2010 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1265991306' post='104159']

Is 200km a LEO? I thought it was more like 200 nautical miles. At 200km the gravitational effects are quite large.

[/quote]



The original question was for 200 km.



200 Km LEO will have high orbit decay rate, yes ~350 KM LEO will be more useful for longer life crafts. 700-900 Km orbit is ideal for sun-synchronous polar orbits.
  Reply
[quote name='Arun_S' date='12 February 2010 - 11:12 PM' timestamp='1265996086' post='104162']

The original question was for 200 km.



yes ~350 KM LEO will be more useful for longer life crafts.

[/quote]





Hummm



Interesting!



Do you know crafts in low earth orbits experience atmospheric drag in the form of gases (in atmosphere) upto 500 KM?



Let me quote:



A satellite, orbiting around the Earth, would continue to orbit forever if gravity were the only force acting on it. However, satellites below 2000 kilometers, are actually travelling through the Earth's atmosphere.



http://www.windows.ucar.edu/spaceweather/sat_drag.html



The lifetime of a satellite is strongly dependent on its altitude. At 300 km altitude it may last for 20-50 days (depending on the Sun's activity level) before it reenters and burns up. However, at 180 km, this lifetime reduces to mere hours.
  Reply
[quote name='ankit-s' date='12 February 2010 - 11:55 PM' timestamp='1265998628' post='104163']

Hummm



Interesting!



Do you know crafts in low earth orbits experience atmospheric drag in the form of gases (in atmosphere) upto 500 KM?[/quote]

What part of my post indicate that I do not know?



I am no new bee, and write after due technical considerations. Thought I am willing to learn.
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