01-06-2012, 09:40 PM
2/4
The comments at the link:
The comments at the link:
Quote:John L. KaterWalnut Creek, CA
..There is a small error in the article. It describes the Episcopal Church as the main American church in the Anglican Communion. In fact, it is the ONLY American church in the Anglican Communion. A number of schismatic bodies claim Anglican identity but none has been recognised by the Anglican Communion and they remain unconnected to most of the Anglican churches around the world which do in fact comprise the Communion.
Jan. 4, 2012 at 1:36 a.m.
..ValeriePutnam County, NY
..Handfuls of Episcopalians are heading for Catholic churches. It is a trickle compared to a torrent that has come the other way over the years. But if you walked into the average Episcopal church and asked for a show of hands on how many people there are ex-Catholics, you'd see anywhere from 25% to 75% who are raising a hand. I am senior warden of a small Episcopal church and off the top of my head I can only think of four or five members who were born Episcopalian.
Many of these current Episcopalians/ex-Catholics came over because they disliked being cafeteria Catholics. The people who are headed over to Catholicism may love it, but may also decide they don't like having to be silent about policies they disagree with.
And don't forget another group, the large number of women who left the Catholic Church because they felt a calling to the priesthood. Some of the best Episcopal priests I know are ex-Catholics.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 10:10 a.m.
..Patrick DonovanKea'au, HI
..I'm all for married priests, but once again, by allowing some to be married and not others, the church has put itself in the forefront of the double-standard brigade. What is it that "catholic" means, again?
Jan. 3, 2012 at 10:10 a.m.
..Brian A McB Boston MA
..Rather than compromise on flagrant gender bigotry, my former church relaxes rules on celibacy. A shame.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 10:10 a.m.
..pianopal St. Louis, MO
..So how long can the Roman Catholic church maintain the inconsistency of allowing married Anglican converts but requiring celibacy of cradle Catholic men entering the priesthood? What to do when there are too few male priests for too many parishes and lots of dedicated, intelligent, theologically hip, nurturing, non-abusing nuns waiting in the wings for leadership roles? Why the current ad campaign to come back to the church? Isn't Catholicism bleeding members almost as much as the Anglicans? Finally, why would you leave a church with a New Testament, Christ-centered approach for a corrupt Old Testament-focused medieval hierarchy that thinks changing "one in being" to "consubstantial" will fill up the pews?
Jan. 3, 2012 at 10:10 a.m.
..MalcolmNYC
..Personally, I prefer not to apply for membership in organizations with a shameful record of harboring and protecting pedophiles.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.
..moweiss New Rochelle, NY
..A beautiful lesson that a 500-year-old religious schism can be healed if both sides realize that they really really really really really hate gay people.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.
..regSt. Louis
..And in any case, in the secular world, that is their choice as long as it breaks no secular law.
I am not called upon to love the sin however, and it is TEC's decision to bless same-sex unions and consecrate those who make the choice to live in homosexual relationships that is the stumbling point for me. While I care about the person, I cannot ignore the belief that what they are doing is wrong, against a clear reading of scripture, against all traditions of the church and society, and not even supported by any reasonable biological imperative.
I suspect that my position will be attacked as hypocritical, or judgmental, or some such label that is used to easily dismiss points of view that one doesn't agree with. I hesitated to even make the comment. But the discussion seemed to me to lack so much in terms of nuance, and to misrepresent what I have found to be the position of many who disagree with TEC on this issue, that I am taking a chance on voicing my convictions.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.
..regSt. Louis
..I have to say that many of the comments to this story make me very sad. I am an Episcopalian--have been for almost 30 years--but I am not a very happy one at the moment. I do not agree with the TEC movement for inclusion at any cost, including the explaining away of any scripture that seems to disagree (or condemn) current cultural trends. The meanness with which Christians and non-believers (who I will assume still adhere to some humanist belief in the value of civility) argue the point is what I find regrettable.
The fact that I do not agree with TEC does not mean, as those who polarize the issue in order to paint the opposition in as negative a light as possible might contend, that I am a misogynist, a homophobe, or even a political conservative. It is quite possible to believe that God loves and cares for those who, for instance, find that they are attracted to someone of the same gender without believing that such attraction is God's will. It have not had any problems caring about and admiring in many ways persons who have chosen a gay lifestyle, while still not approving of that choice. It is not in that case my business anyway. (As if they needed my approval.) It is no different, to my mind, than my response to someone who cheats on a spouse, or is addicted to pornography. I profoundly disagree with that choice--which I would call a sin--but believe that as a sinner I am called upon to love the sinner. (to be cont.)
Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.
..Isaiah Dallas Texas
..Because of the boorish atheist remarks I add the following
Stalin once crudely remarked to Truman "how many divisions does the pope have"
One Polish priest with out a tank nor a gun made atheists armed with nuclear missiles quake in their pants. The precious atheist empire dissolved like a morning fog before a brilliant sun.
There are only two officially atheists states left China and North Korea. And China is being evangelized, how long before the atheists systems there are rejected?
Like Poland and Russia not a single atheist will be killed.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.
..Jozefa SzczepanskaBrookfield, CT
..Our Catholic Church already has enough bigots among its membership - we do NOT need any more anti-gay or anti-women members coming in from other churches!
Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.
..BQ Philadelphia, P
..I think you have a basic fact WRONG..."The Episcopal Church is the main American branch of the Anglican Communion, a loose global body whose symbolic head is the archbishop of Canterbury, head of the Church of England."
The "Head of the Church of England" is, since Elizabeth I (the argument for her is Henry VIII still considered himself Catholic at his death) the ENGLISH MONARCH, not the Archbishop of Canterbury (and formerly Catholic Primate of England). The title of Head of the Church is taken by the Monarch within the coronation process and oaths - one reason why up till now (after Henry VIII) the Monarch could not divorce, marry a divorcee, or a Catholic). Now, as to Charles and the Church of England and the later formed Anglican Communion...does God really care about all of this? She seems to have been awfully quiet on the entire subject!
Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.
..The Rev. Patricia TempletonAtlanta, GA
..For Catholics who are divorced (except Newt Gingrich) or who are tired of discrimination against women, gays, and married men, my church has a motto that says it all: "The Episcopal Church Welcomes You." And you will find many former Catholics already waiting for you when you arrive. Come join us.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.
..Jakob Oxford
.."...the Anglican Communion, a loose global body whose symbolic head is the archbishop of Canterbury, head of the Church of England."
The Queen is the head of the Church of England.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.
..the mind is its own place Nantes, France
..I left the Anglican church and joined the Catholic church for practical, geographic reasons , and it was easy to do so because the decades of ecumenical efforts on both sides have produced in a very similar liturgy, and really minimal differences in faith (OK, there's the Marial veneration, but that is something each person can weigh for themselves). The central Christian message is very much alive in both churches, the Catholic church is simply more conservative in moral matters (but far less strident and judgemental than many of the other Protestant denominations). I think what many Protestants don't realize is that the Catholic church of today is very different from the one they originally split away from int he 16th century, and even Luther would probably still be Catholic if the Church of his time were like the one of today.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.
..Jim Gainesville, Florida
..Politics and Spirituality. To me they are at odds with one another. The Catholic Church vs the Episcopal Church, conservative religious views vs liberal religious views, taking exclusive sides, bitter denunciations, - it's all too much like the politics of government that feed the front pages. My childhood belief bubble that the word *Church* is closely connected to *spirituality* has been dissolving since early adulthood and it looks like it is about to go bust.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.
..mountaineerCharleston, WV
..The commenters reflect the essence of Protestantism since Protestantism began: We're not Catholic and so there. If that's what motivates you, go for it. We Catholics love the Church and our faith. The Protestant pursuit of relativism is never (ever) going to change that. That's why the Catholic Church is growing.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.4
..BJTRichmond, Va
..Act of generosity? I think not - act of desperation, more like. The Catholic Church (and I'm Catholic) will do anything to avoid confronting the sexual and financial hang-ups that continue to forbid married priests (with the exception of "disaffected" Episcopalians) and the ordination of women. The aforementioned hang-ups are why there is such emphasis on rigid control of the sexuality of women - and men, but mostly of women. The church is run by aged, self-indulgent and entitled white men who have no responsibility whatsoever for rearing children (obviously, based on the rampant sexual abuse of them) and who will never bear a child. The celibacy of priests, a later development in the history of the church, was to avoid having to support wives and children or to avoid paying spousal support - simple as that. Greed and perversion has become out of control at the upper levels of the hierarchy, I hate to say - although many of us slog on, following our own consciences and hoping to change things from within.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.19
..RNNYC
..I believe all of this is nonsense, but we are now to believe that those new converts now believe in Transubstantiation where before they did not. Based on what?
Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.7
(My question exactly!)
..RNNYC
..The Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox Churches allow for married priests at the parish level and celibate priests at higher levels. This was obviously a political compromise rather than any theoological position.
While they are at it, maybe a nice gesture would be to grant Henry VIII an annulment! (Good one.)
Keep me posted on whether there are any changes to the number of Angels dancing on the head of a pin!
(Oh I forgot about that! Very true. Funny dude/tte.)
Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.8
..KatChicago, IL
..I belong to the Untiy Christian Church, which believes that we are all beings imbued with Dvine essence. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. The Oneness Christ experienced with God is available to each and every one of us. Every honest attempt to commune with the Divine is honored, regardless of the faith tradition. It is laughable that so many people with such strong faith in God cannot see that others' faith is as strong even though the faith tradition is different. And cannot see that their reaching for the Divine is marred by their oh-so-human prejudices. (If I didn't laugh I would cry.)
Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.3
..nana2roaw albany, ny
..Exceptions to Church rules on birth control can't be made for poor Africans with AIDS but rules on celibacy can be bypassed for anti-feminist, anti-gay Episcopal priests. Well done.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.21
..TomUpstate Upstate New York
..Before declaring that the Episcopal Church USA is losing members (homophobic and gynophobic members) to the Catholics, remember how many members of the Episcopal Church USA are themselves ex-Roman Catholics. This large population, including me, are drawn to Episcopalianism as much by the inclusivity of the church as by its rich traditions of liturgy and music. (The "Hymnal 1982" is a model of sensitive musical tradition combined unobtrusively with non-gender-specific language.) Episcopalians not only actually sing in Church--really good hymns, too, by composers like Vaughan-Williams and Willan--but they sing in parts!
So there is something downright funny about allowing ex-Episcopalians to retain some of the language of the Book of Common Prayer--and their hymns--as they migrate to Roman Catholicism with its stolid congregations of non-singers (even of Christmas carols!), following the service out of monthly news-print "missalettes."
And there is something genuinely bizarre in choosing as a homophobe to seek "sanctuary" in the Catholic church, where predatory homosexual pedophiles have a remarkably long tradition of joining the clergy and then victimizing their "flocks."
I think the Episcopal Church should invite Roman Catholics worried about predatory clergy to "migrate" to the Episcopal Church--and allow them to retain their pedestrian "preaching," polyester vestments, and their semi-"pop" and semi-"folk" "hymns," along with their refusal to sing them. Any takers?
Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.8
..WilliamMadison, WI
..Of course we Episcopalians grow when former Roman Catholics come home to us, in the Spirit. But it suits you to present only conservative anti-christian forces as growing within God's church. Rome remains as a small remnant of the Roman empire that demands fealty to them before fealty to the Gospel is allowed. Those of us who try to follow Giovanni Francesco di Bernardone or Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli or even Joseph Louis Bernardin (much less any woman) are not welcome in the Rome of Benedict XVI.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.9
..Iandayville CT
..out of the frying pan and into an even bigger frying pan............
Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.5
..Belleweather Tallahassee, FL
..As a recovering Catholic, it's interesting to stand outside the fray and watch people make up and dissolve and alter rules that have nothing to do with God and everything to do with how comfortable they are and how much power man-made institutions can gain or retain.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.13
..StevenDallas, Texas
..The Roman Catholic Church wants to force other people's children (teenagers)
to have unwanted babies.
The Roman Catholic Church discriminates, big time, against women.
The Roman Catholic Church sees worldwide overpopulation as a non issue.
(In 1950 the Philippeans had a population of 20 million. In 2011 it was 92
million with most living in miserable, abject poverty.)
If you are interested in seeing what a loving, thriving, intellectually demanding
Episcopal Church looks like, check out the Episcopal Church of the Messiah,
Santa Ana, California, website.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.6
..cboynyc
..I guess it's not that much of a stretch. It was David Mamet, I think, who defined an Episcopalian as a Catholic with a Volvo.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.4
..ploatmanMechanicville NY
..Let's see-I am Catholic and married, so I cannot become a priest. But wait a minute- I think I will "convert " to Episcopalianism [just long enough to become a married priest], and then I'll "reconvert" back to being a Catholic. VOILA, I will then be able to become a Catholic priest! I never wanted to be a bishop, anyway, so I don't mind the limitation on being excluded from aspiring to the higher hierarchy. Gotta go-I'm looking for some needles to stand on.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.2
<img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />
..On WisconsinRacine County, WI
..My 83-year-old father married a Catholic woman, and together, they raised 7 Catholic children to adulthood. My dad, who himself was raised a Methodist, has been attending Catholic mass with my mom for the last decade. Recently, he told the parish priest that he wanted to convert to Roman Catholicism. The priest said no, because my dad wasn't baptized as a Catholic. My father would have to be baptized and attend several month of catechism classes before he could convert.
Apparently, there is no room in the Catholic church for "acts of generosity" on a personal scale.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.8
..Daphne PhilipsonArdsley on Hudson, NY
..It always intrigues me that the three fundamentals of the Catholic Church - opposition to abortion; contraception and celibacy for its priests - are tenets that divide men and women. The Church has to be the most misogynistic organization on the planet. They claim to cherish women but if a woman has a difficult pregnancy her life must be sacrificed for the child. The Blessed Mother was married but has to be depicted as someone who did not sleep with her husband and gave birth as a virgin. Impregnated by a dove. The Church is totally insane but most importantly is not female friendly.
Jan. 3, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.5