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Attack in Mumbai -2
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Pak accepts terrorists may be from its territory : US<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First they should deliver something, I think India had enough.
<b>26/11 fallout: Pak TV actors feel the heat</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Zaheer Abhas, a participant of `Sa Re Ga Ma,' allegedly left for Lahore on the night of the attack in the city. The singer told TOI from Lahore, "I was supposed to come to Lahore to shoot for a special episode with my family. But I am not getting a ticket to return to India.'' He said, "Kuch nahi kiya toh darna kya. (If I have not done anything, why should I be afraid) I will come back to India if I get a ticket.''

But Pakistani sources said economy class tickets to Mumbai are available for the next two days. "`There are chances that the producers of the shows involving Pakistanis are taking precautionary measures and want to keep the actors away from Mumbai,'' said a source.

Pakistani actors currently shooting for television and films in India are running scared.<b> On Sunday, about 500 members of the Bharatiya Vidyarthi Sena(BVS) barged on to the sets of Raju Srivastav's show at Chetan Studio in Andheri and warned him against hiring Pakistani artistes.
On hearing this, Pakistani actors Kashif and Shakeel Siddiqui were immediately moved from the shooting and shifted to a safe place.</b> Said Kashif, "After the producers of our show heard that some people had threatened Raju Srivastav, we have been moved to a safer place. Our family wants us to come back home.'' According to him, they wanted to return on Monday but unfortunately, did not get the tickets. "Guess we will finish the shooting that is left of our show.''
However, sources close to the actor's family said that Shakeel Siddiqui and Kashif are returning to Pakistan on Wednesday.

Meanwhile, the BVS has also issued a diktat to channels on the same issue. Abhijeet Mane of the party said,<b> "We went on Raju Srivastav's set and requested him not to work with Pakistani actors. We have told the channels to do the same.'' When told that Sena leader Uddhav Thackeray is an ardent fan of Ghulam Ali, Mane said, "So am I, but it is time for all of us to sacrifice.'' </b>
<!--emo&:bcow--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/b_cowboy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='b_cowboy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:bhappy--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/b_woot.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='b_woot.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:bhappy--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/b_woot.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='b_woot.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:bcow--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/b_cowboy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='b_cowboy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:bcow--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/b_cowboy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='b_cowboy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:bcow--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/b_cowboy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='b_cowboy.gif' /><!--endemo-->

On NPR I heard that an SMS is doing the rounds in Mumbai:

Terrorists don't just come on boats, they also come through votes

<!--emo&:clapping--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/clap.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='clap.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:clapping--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/clap.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='clap.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<b>Revealed: The hands behind Mumbai's taxi blasts</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->New leads into the Mumbai terror attacks have revealed that the two bombs that went off at Vile Parle and Wadi Bandar were planted by slain terrorist Ismail Khan and his associate Mohammad Ajmal Amir Iman, who is in police custody.


<b>Iman further revealed that they were instructed to return to Pakistan at any cost.

Otherwise, "our commanders promised to take care of our families and ordered that we should die fighting during the operation", </b>he told the ATS officials.

Iman refused to divulge information on any local module and insisted that the entire operation was planned at Pakistan.

<b>ATS officials suspect that Iman might not know anything about the local modules, as his bosses might not have informed him about them.</b>

Each terrorist was given a specific amount of information, which is needed to carry out their attack. The investigating agencies feel that the video clippings of the targeted locations may have been shot by local modules and sent across to Pakistan. These clippings were shown to these men, who carried out the attack at these places.

An ATS official said that it is extremely necessary for them to crack the local module, which helped carry out this attack.

"The man in our custody tried to mislead us and there are certain statements by him are contradictory in nature."

ATS officials suspect that the terrorist might have been trained in withholding information during interrogations.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Blowing an opportunity with India</b>
Good article in JPost.com - Opinion

<b>At a time of shared grief, let's not hurt each other</b>

letters - very good
<b>All are guilty of this culpable homicide</b>
By Kiran Bedi

Enough is enough.

Never for so long have the media and the “rich and famous” collectively questioned and spoken in one voice on police reforms. This was a subject not for them but the very few (considered crazy) who were fighting in the Apex Court, or speaking and/or writing at the same time — all at their personal cost. I was categorically told by more than one boss to “stop speaking and writing on police reforms”. I did not.

I recall when the Supreme Court judgment on police reforms was delivered, in September 2006 and January 2007, it did not get due attention for wider dissemination, though it actually merited banner headlines. I personally tried to provoke our leading TV news channels to have some intensive discussions on the issue. But they were by and large evasive. They could not spare time for the Apex Court’s directions to make the impact and create opinion amongst the masses. Interestingly, these were also being opposed by the respective state administrations and the police leadership, including the one in the capital.

For the last 60 years, Indian policing has remained stuck in its pre-Independence state. By this I mean enslaved, hierarchical, scared, ill-trained, ill-equipped, ill-paid, ill-led, ill-resourced, obedient, at places equally indisciplined, law-breaking, rich and powerful oriented, and non-accessible to the poor while losing personnel each year.

Why did this situation come about? Who is responsible for this state of affairs? Primarily the following six, collectively and individually: The politicians, the bureaucrats, the judiciary, senior police leadership, the educated class and the media. Let me explain as I understand it:

* The Politicians: This class (barring a few exceptions) was invariably of the belief that police was and is part of their fiefdom, always to be at their beck and call. The Police Act of 1861, still in force, places the police under the executive control of the political executive. Over the years it got stretched to negative political interference in investigations, law and order management, postings, transfers and promotions, across all ranks.

* The bureaucrats: This is the least accountable class. They are the persons (again, barring some exceptions) who use the politicians. They are the ones who are status quo-ists. They have successfully blocked police reforms and I have seen this happen first-hand. This class has successfully stalled the spread of police commissioner system in our metropolises, as also having more police officers well versed with operations in the home ministry.

* The Judiciary: It took the courts more than 10 long years after a public interest litigation was filed by Prakash Singh, former DGP, on police reforms, to finally deliver the judgment in 2006. The ball is still in the Apex Court as several states are daring to defy the directions given in the judgment. It is to be seen how the honourable court takes the recalcitrant ones to task.

* Senior Police Leadership: There has been a gradual decline of courage in the higher echelons of the service: The courage to lead and the courage to represent the rank and file before the powers that be; As also the will to show the way, by way of innovation and winning public’s trust. (Isolated cases of raw courage notwithstanding).

* The Educated Class: Moved more towards becoming “gated communities” by increasing private security arrangements in order to secure themselves, rather than becoming powerful voices to question police’s inadequacies. Actually, they just gave up on the system!

* Last but not the least, the media: Had the media been determined to force the change, they could have doggedly followed the police reform judgment as a mark of respect for the Apex Court. They did not. But now they are planning to. For now it is a case of “now or never”. Because now “enough is enough”.

The “Mumbai terror” was preventable, just as all the earlier blasts were. If we had placed internal security reforms at par with economic reforms, if the quality of our intelligence gathering, response time, resources, laws, training, coordination and leadership had all been in place, neither the Taj, nor our sartaj, India’s Parliament, would have been bloodied. Thousands of precious lives would not have been lost. Damage to precious property and our economy, resulting in huge loses, would have been avoided. Instead, this money could have provided for better weaponry, bullet-proof jackets and vehicles, better wireless systems, trawlers to patrol the coastline and more personnel. All found missing as the world watched live! A true embarrasment for the emerging economic superpower!

<i>Kiran Bedi, now retired from the IPS and a social activist, was the first
woman officer in the Indian Police Service</i>

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>26/11 could have been stopped</b>
November 4, 2006
Vir Sanghvi, Hindustan Times
New Delhi, December 01, 2008
As the investigation into the intelligence failures that preceded the Mumbai attacks proceeds, there is evidence that even quite specific information that was gathered was either not properly analysed or not acted on.

The Research and Analysis Wing (R&AW), India’s external intelligence agency, had provided several intercepts from signals intelligence over the last three months. These suggested that a terror  strike on a Mumbai hotel was imminent. But they were largely ignored.

The revelations about the phone intercepts (which R&AW has documented) are certain to lead to questions about the government’s inept response to the attack...On September 18, R&AW computers intercepted a satellite phone conversation between a known Lashkar-e-Tayyeba (LeT) asset and an unknown person. The LeT asset said that an operation to target a hotel at the Gateway of India in Mumbai was being planned and that the sea route would be used.

On September 24, R&AW’s computer recorded another satellite phone conversation. This time, the LeT asset identified the hotels that were being considered for the attack by name. They were the Taj, the Marriott, the Land’s End and the Sea Rock. A possible attack on the Juhu airfield (used by a flying club) was also discussed.

All these hotels have one thing in common: they are easily accessible from the sea. The Taj is on the Apollo Bunder waterfront,  the Marriott is on Juhu sea face and the Land’s End and the Sea Rock are both on the sea-facing tip of Bandra. This should have been enough to let police know that: 1) Hotels were the target. 2) The attackers would use the sea route.

On November 19, R&AW listeners picked up another unexplained satellite phone conversation. A voice said, “We will reach Bombay between nine and eleven.” R&AW trackers identified the exact coordinates of the call and discovered that it came from the sea near Mumbai, 40 km west of Jhol.

<b> This was clear evidence — at the very least — of an attempt being made to enter Mumbai illegally by people armed with advanced satellite phones.</b>


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Doubts surround introspective Singh's ability to reform security</b>

By Alan Beattie in New Delhi

Published: December 2 2008 02:00 | Last updated: December 2 2008 02:00

Manmohan Singh ensured his place in history when, as India's finance minister in 1991, he seized the opportunity of an economic crisis to push through radical reform of its regulation-bound economy. Now, as prime minister, he faces a fresh crisis: reforming a security regime that was found deeply wanting by the Mumbai attacks.

But with only a few months before his government must call a general election, Mr Singh may find it hard to shake up an administration many observers say is characterised by drift and introspection.

In spite of his previous success at the finance ministry, there was not universal praise for his decision this weekend to combine it with his prime ministerial role after appointing Palaniappan Chidambaram, the current finance minister, to replace Shivraj Patil as home minister. "Taking over the finance portfolio himself is not a good idea," says Tarun Das, chief mentor to the Confederation of Indian Industry, who hopes it is only a stopgap measure. "It needs a full-time minister."

Vir Singhvi type of people are problem, he was the one who started candlekisser idea, he was front runner for anti-Modi squad. Now he is calling security when playground of rich and famous got hit. Why he is not calling PM to quit.

First they should kick out SIMI loving Muslim Home state Minister. He will never call for raid in Mosque. All SIMI loving creatures should be removed from Government.

Today I left a question for Amitabh Bachan on his website Why he call SIMI promoter Amar Singh his friend? Why he is making so much drama?
Kaua chala Hans ki chal.
Anyway my question ofcourse deleted by Amitabh Bachan. <!--emo&Big Grin--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<b>“A handful of gAzI-s paralyze a Hindu city”, unprecedented?</b>

As the band of a dozen gAzI-s swooped to the marahaTTA shores — and following the tradition of jihad laid down by the prophet, torturously dispatched countless kAfirs of both buta-parasta and yahUdI varieties to dozakh, took hostage the place belonging to pArasIka mahA-shreShThI of an equally despicable Atish-parasta creed and paralyzed the nation — memory of this similar event of long past, now almost evaporated from the Hindu subconscious, suddenly surfaced. As the blessed peacemakers, born through the womb of India but conceived during the prolonged gang-rape by the mlechCha-s, light up that “Gateway” built in honour of the mlechChAdhipati who ravaged her for centuries as his maid and his mistress, it was hard to put down this old fragment of lost memory when a similar act was played out centuries back on her eastern regions by the turuShka-s.

That band of gAzI-s was not unlike this one, with only dozen and half mujAhidIn riding on Arabic horses, wearing the cloak of merchants and carrying leather sacks on horseback concealing large-scale weaponry. With Muhammad Bakhtiyar Khalji, the trusted turuShka-Afghan lieutenant of Qutb-ud-deen Aybak at their head, gAzI-s swiftly rode westwards deep into the delta of ga~NgA, and it was approaching dusk as they entered the market streets of nAdiyA, the sena capital of Bengal famed worldwide for its riches. The year was 1198.

Khalji had, just in the previous decade, brought the province of Bihar to under the umbrella of dar-ul-islam, and cleansed it of numerous places of infidels, destroying most notably the universities of nAlandA and vikramashilA, the despised seats of jAhiliA and kufr. The Persian chronicler Minhaj reports in tabAqat-i-nasIrI that during the sack of nAlandA, thousands of monks were burned alive and other thousands put to the sword of Islam, and after ensuring that there was no copy of Quran on the shelves, the massive library of university was put to flames. The size of library was such, that the fire continued for several months as the “smoke from the burning books of infidels hung for days like a dark pall over the hills”, says Minhaj.

With Bihar under Islam, Khalji’s sight had been set for some time now to further east, towards the riches of Bengal. While the army of Bengal was not any weak, its ruler the scholarly lakshamaNa sena, the patron of famous jayadeva, and a staunch vaiShNava, had become too weakened by age and turned pacifist by temperament. What else could be said of the lack of kShatriya spirit in him, that even after seeing the treatment meted out to the neighbouring countries of magadha and kAshI, he did not adopt any forward policy and comfortably waited in his capital wishing they would be spared by the turuShka-s!

So, as this band of mujAhid-s entered the streets of his capital, it did not attract much attention. They were taken by citizens to be a group of horse-merchants, a frequent sight in the markets of nAdiyA. As the sun was now setting, gAzI-s enquired about and swiftly made their way towards the royal palace. It is not clear whether by deceit or by bribe, by trickery or simply by overpowering the platoons guarding the garrison opening, the band in whichever way managed to gain a quick entrance. And as soon as the entry was made, they swooped onto the harem and took it hostage, probably also some ministers and generals. If we have to believe the account of Minhaj, the aged King was at the time being served his dinner when he heard of the turuShka attack. His personal body guards swiftly escorted him through secret alleys to outside the palace which opened far away near a riverine, and through a raft he escaped either to kali~Nga or kAmarUpa, or more likely, to his other capital in eastern Bengal near dhAkA.

Back in nAdiyA, the band of dozen and half gAzI-s was hard at work, razing the quarters and markets and putting citizens to sword and taking hostage others. Soon they were joined by the larger turuShka army that poured into the capital, and as Minhaj says, “swept the town with the broom of devastation, completely demolishing it”. Countless temples were razed throughout the state, and mosques erected from the rubble. Most notable of these being the famed AdinAtha temple of mAldA dedicated to mahAdeva, that moslems later converted into a mosque, known these days as adInA-masjid, and on walls of which a mutilated body of dancing gaNapati can be seen to this date, and the complex still suggesting how magnificent the original temple could have been. Countless women of Bengal were dispatched to the harem of Aybak in Delhi and also to the Rightly Guided Khalif in Iraq, together with much booty and precious gifts. Khalif of the momin, soon sent to Khalji a letter of praise. Many boys were castrated and taken as slaves and sent to be sold in the markets of bukhArA and basarA.

While Khalji failed to press further deep into Bengal, and sena-s managed to halt him from east and south, the reign of Islam was thus inaugurated in Bengal by just a dozen and half gAzI-s swooping into the city of Hindu-s and paralyzing the whole country. Let this be remembered as we repeatedly hear about the “unprecedented” attack in Mumbai, in mid of the chants of “terrorism has no religion”.

But one can not just stop here without mentioning the retaliation from Hindu-s soon after. The Hindu-s of Orissa and Assam had still in them the flame of kShatriya spirit burning, and far from losing heart of coming under Khilji’s control, rAjA-s of both these countries marshaled their armies and independently smashed him.

First, the Armies from Orissa marched proactively and completely devastated the capital of Khilji, Lakhnauti, with such ferocity that he had to flee and take shelter in Awadh province.

Later, In 1205, Khalji received a final body blow from Hindus, when he set out on an invasion of kAmarUpa, Bhutan and Tibet, and crossed through the border region of prAgjyotiSha via dArjIling with a cavalry of 10,000 moslems. The retaliation from Himalayan kingdoms was extremely fierce and turuShka-s met heavy losses in a kind of warfare they had not seen before, forcing them to retreat. Here, Hindus must learn a lesson from an event that is recorded in a saMskR^ita inscription on the rocks of kanaibarasibowa not very far from the shrine of kAmAkhyA devI.

Anticipating the turuShka return, the King of kAmarUpa had prepared a trap for them. He destroyed the stone bridge over brahmaputra which the Moslems would have crossed, and blocking the way forward, his armies intercepted the enemy from three sides. No prisoners were taken and a general wipe out followed. While many turuShka-s perished from the poisonous darts, others who jumped into bramhaputra were devoured by it. In the end, leaving his army to perish, only Khalji escaped with 300 horsemen, his personal bodyguards, to his capital near gaur, and this is all that became of the large Moslem army of Bengal. Khalji died soon after his return.

1. riyAzu-s-salAtIn, a Persian chronicle of Maulavi Abdus Salam, translated from Persian by Gulam Husain Salim, Baptist Mission Press, Calcutta, 1903

2. tabaḳAt-i-NAṣIrI, a Persian chronicle of Maulana Minhaj-ud-din Abul Umar-i-Usman, translated by H. G. Raverty as “A General History of the Muhammadan Dynasties of Asia, Including Hindustan (810–1260)” (Asiatic Society of Bengal, Calcutta, 1881). This account by Minhaj is the earliest narrative of this event. It is likely that some of the historian’s informants had been eyewitnesses to the events.

3. pAdshAh-buranjI, an old Assamese chronicle translated by S K Bhuyan as “Annals of the Delhi Badshahate” (Dept. of Historical & Antiquarian Studies, Govt. of Assam, 1947)
<b>Rice Uses India Nuclear Pact to Urge Restraint on Mumbai Attack </b>

Moron Singh got punked in daylight. <!--emo&Big Grin--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Today I left a question for Amitabh Bachan on his website Why he call SIMI promoter Amar Singh his friend? Why he is making so much drama?
Kaua chala Hans ki chal.
Anyway my question ofcourse deleted by Amitabh Bachan.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly my thoughts Mudy. Can't SIMI and Amar Singh stand guard outside Pratiksha that he's to sleep with his revolver?
Amitabh seems to have some issue with one postor called Pankaj who writes in Hindi. He's certainly got the angry old man all riled up. Why?

Either terror came to close to these rich guys playground, or its just an act.
<b>Mumbai's Terror is Over, But Panic Persists</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->at least five terrorists may still be at large and able to strike again. "They're planning to attack schools and colleges," one panicky caller told an radio show on Tuesday

the police claim to have killed (nine) and captured (one) and local reports that the winter jackets and <b>toothbrushes of 15 men had been found aboard a boat </b>that had allegedly ferried the terrorists to their target<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yesterday, late night my friend called me, he was in panic, last year he went back to India just to introduce Indian culture to his kids and ofcourse scared of school shooting in US etc. His kids are studying in one of the best school in city and he was scared these bad guys can walk into any school and kill kids , can rerun Russia school incidence etc.

What I am thinking they can actually do that just to rescue their buddies in jail and three now in Mumbai police custody. Now question is not if but when.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>It's time to understand nature, purpose of attack: Vijay </b>
Mumbai, Dec 2 (UNI) It was time to try and understand the real nature of the 26/11 terror attack, the motive of the terrorists and purpose behind the acts, Shyam Mukherjee Research Foundation director Tarun Vijay said today.

Speaking at an interactive meet on the terrorist attack in the city, Mr Vijay said unlike the country, an organization like Al Qaeda was clear in its goals and purpose of existence.

Coming down heavily on the elite, he said, ''Bombay has been let down by the elite and their pseudo secularism. Lighting candles after a tragedy will solve very little.'' ' <!--emo&Big Grin--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> 'The corporates spend crores on selling products but ignore the welfare of the country that has produced them,'' he said.

He said majority of the anti-nationalistic movements and insurgency had their roots in the less developed and remote parts, where communities were denied a chance to be a part of the mainstream progress, he said.

Mr Vijay, who is also an RSS member, said Hindu majority is the only guarantor of the country's plurality and<b> Indians must be clear about the Hinduistic character of the country.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
News channels are reporting that today morning ATS allowed FBI to interrogate the captured gAzI. Now, can there be a more moronic thing to do? Engaging FBI or other such agencies will only be as dangerous if not more, as the striking gAzI-s themselves. Will the morons ever learn?
^ Bodhi's important post above.
Bodhi, will you please try finding and posting some links on this for archival purposes.

About Sandhya Jain's "Reduce VIP security and interrogate survivors, please" article (the bits my comments relate to are reproduced below) and Dhu's comments on it.

<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Dec 1 2008, 05:07 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Dec 1 2008, 05:07 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Meanwhile, a stunning piece from Sandhya Jain:
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:red'>Reduce VIP security and interrogate survivors, please        </span>
Sandhya Jain
01 Dec 2008

Some things deserve an immediate answer – how many terrorists were there actually; how did they reach their respective destinations inland; and is it possible that “super-terrorists” simply walked out with the real survivors after having utilised the “mercenaries” to the hilt, just as they had murdered the navigators of the boats that brought them to Mumbai?

Current media reports and government sources say that the terrorists came by sea, landing near the Gateway of India or Colaba. This certainly explains the attacks on the sea front hotels like Taj, Oberoi and the Nariman House. But the question remains – how did they get to the CST station, Cama Hospital, and other places inland? Someone must have provided transport and back-up.

By no logic can anyone believe that nine separate sites in a city could be held to ransom by just 10 men. It is particularly difficult to believe that gigantic hotels like the Taj could be ruined and scores of guests killed or injured by just two men (sometimes the figure goes to six). Even two men per floor could not have caused the kind of death and destruction that did happen. A small place like Nariman House, yes, but Taj and Oberoi – I don’t believe it. And if there were six persons at Taj and at least two at Nariman House, that means only two persons destroyed the Oberoi?

Rediff.com has interviewed the doctors who conducted the post-mortems on the dead hostages and terrorists, and it is their expert opinion that a battle of attrition took place over three days at the Oberoi and Taj hotels. The mutilation of the bodies was unlike anything they had seen in their careers in forensics.

For one, the bodies of the victims bore horrible signs of torture. Now this is understandable if the victims are being tormented by half-human beasts, but it seems strange that two terrorists could simultaneously fight and keep Indian commandos at bay for 62 hours, and also have the time to torture their victims. Yet the doctors were emphatic that:
"It was apparent that most of the dead were tortured. What shocked me were the telltale signs showing clearly how the hostages were executed in cold blood."

To my mind, it seems apparent that the terrorists who kept the NSG commandos engaged and those who tortured and killed the hotel staff and guests were two separate groups.

This suspicion is intensified by the startling revelation that the terrorists also did not meet a clean death. Doctors who conducted the post-mortem said the bodies of the terrorists – especially their faces - were beyond recognition. The security forces identified the bodies as those of terrorists [on TV they said it was because of the presence of weaponry near the bodies].

One terrorist was shot through either eye (i.e., both eyes!!!). As the NSG commandos never got to such close range with the terrorists, and nobody commits suicide by shooting both his own eyes, it follows that the killers were somebody else. Since none of the hotel guests could have the kind of weaponry used in the conflict, this suggests the presence of a mysterious third party, making the terrorists the victims of a classic double-cross – the stuff of spy thrillers. Actually, it reminds one of the convenient murder of the alleged killer of President John F. Kennedy.

Hence it would be entirely in order to closely interrogate each and every guest, especially the foreign guests, before allowing them to leave the country. Without false emotionalism, we should also fingerprint them for the future; who knows what Interpol cooperation may throw up.

Top Russian counter-terrorism expert, Vladimir Klyukin, an Afghan war veteran, opines that the Mumbai attackers were not "ordinary terrorists" and were probably trained by the special operations forces set up in Pakistan by US intelligence prior to the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan. In his view, the nature of the Mumbai events suggests the signature of the 'Green Flag' special operations forces created by the Americans in Pakistan, just a year before the Soviet withdrawal.

Guerrilla operations of the Mumbai kind require at least two-three years of preparatory work with experienced instructors. Raw trainees cannot hold four huge complexes in a city to ransom for so long. The Russian Interfax news agency reported the former KGB veteran as surmising the involvement of at least 50 terrorists, given the geography and sheer scale of the attacks. This seems like a legitimate estimation.

What is more, the only way 9 coordinated attacks can occur simultaneously is by using Global Positioning Systems (GPS) or live maps for communication and control. These are not normally owned by private parties. Initial investigations also suggested that as many as seven terrorists included mostly British-born Pakistanis, and one does hope that these leads are not covered up. The reports also suggested some gunmen were captured, but later media reports highlighted that only one terrorists was caught alive at the railway station. So there is a lot of confusion here that needs to be cleared up.

Certainly the hints about British involvement, openly asserted by the outspoken Lyndon LaRouche, need investigation. 

Media has been heavily criticized in some quarters for airing visuals of NSG commandos dropping on the hotel roofs from helicopters, and thus giving operational secrets away to the militants watching TV inside. If the criticism is to be valid, however, we will have to accept that the terrorists had more men inside who could be deployed to watch TV and give information which would enable them to react and rebuff the aerial assault. <b>There is no way 2 to 6 terrorists could torture victims sadistically and kill them brutally, watch TV, fight and keep the security forces at bay for 62 hours, and then kill themselves or each other in impossible ways. </b>

The death of terrorists points to a clear double-cross and also the possibility of the involvement of more than one religious denomination. That the terrorists did not prepare for death by carrying potassium cyanide is well known; nor did they simply intend to blow themselves up like the usual suicide bombers. The surviving terrorist has revealed that they were told of an escape plan – and no doubt that plan was used by those who killed their fellow terrorists and walked out free!

This writer has consistently stated that modern, late 20th-21st century jihad is qualitatively different from the medieval jihad in which Muslim armies led by generals or kings ran over much of the world in Europe, north Africa, and Asia. Contemporary jihad is a mercenary tool of Western colonialism, serving a colonial intent with devout slavishness, and this seems borne out by the events of Mumbai.

What remains to be seen, however, is whether or not the Islamic world wakes up to the reality of its own self-enslavement. India on its part has demonstrated that no matter how long it takes to get operational, no matter the cost in terms of live and property, the territory of Bharat Mata will be protected.

<b>It is more than likely that Pakistan was rebuked by its British and American ‘friends’ (read Masters) for agreeing to send the ISI chief to assist in the investigations, and forced to backtrack on a solemn assurance. The teams from Scotland Yard and America, ostensibly coming to assist India in the probe, are more likely trying to ascertain the extent of evidence with India. </b>

It is pertinent that the recovery of a satellite phone from the trawler abandoned with the body of the Gujarati captain revealed that the trawler had been hijacked to Karachi Port, and while there, calls were made even to Australia (where the CIA has a famous outpost!)

Interestingly, General Leonid Ivashov, who was Chief of Staff of the Russian armed forces when the Twin Towers tragedy happened on 11 September 2001, insists that there is no such thing as international terrorism and that “the September 11 attacks were the result of a set-up. What we are seeing is a manipulation by the big powers; this terrorism would not exist without them.” Instead of faking a “world war on terror”, the best way to reduce such attacks is through respect for international law and peaceful cooperation among countries and their citizens

Globalization creates the conditions for the emergence of this terror. It seeks to design a new world geo-strategic map; appropriate the resources of the planet; erase cultural identities; and subjugate States before a global oligarchy. Thus, terrorism, according to Gen. Ivashov, is an instrument of world politics, “a means to install a unipolar world with a sole world headquarters, a pretext to erase national borders and to establish the rule of a new world elite. It is precisely this elite that constitutes the key element of world terrorism, its ideologist and its “godfather”.

Contemporary international terrorism combines the use of terror by State and non-State political structures to attain political objectives through intimidation of people, psychological and social destabilization, elimination of resistance inside power organizations, and the creation of appropriate conditions for the manipulation of the countries’ policies and the behaviour of people. Media complicity helps. But terrorism is not possible without the support of political and business circles that wield the funds to finance it – and Pakistan is notoriously bankrupt.

[right][snapback]91221[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->After reading through Sandhya Jain's article above which acquainted me with various facts about the Mumbai attacks which I didn't know, I am in agreement with her.
I'm going to have to raise the most obvious matter here that directly follows from the above. And then some additional views on my part.

Submitting the possibility/high likelihood:
- That the torture was carried out not by islamics but by western intelligence
- The torture was the goal of the attacks: it was for purposes of interrogation. (And possibly followed by additional mutilation after death to conceal the identities of several victims, just as they had done to the islamic footsoldiers they used).
- If interrogation were the goal, it would make sense that had to keep an external facade of a terrorist attack going to keep their actual operations covered.
- That the western intelligence operation was intended to last the minimum of 3 or so days that it did, precisely because their interrogation to obtain the necessary information would take either a substantial amount of time or their interrogatory (torture) attention needed to be split over several victims.

The question then would be: what information were they after. To be able to even remotely answer that, need to know <i>who</i> they were interrogating. To know that, we need to identify the victims of their torture.
Related to that:
Viren's post 64 (also Mudy's earlier post) linking to news on "Doctors shocked at hostages's torture"
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. <b>It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again," he (doctor who did the post-mortem) said.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->With "<i>even</i> in my head" the doctor seems to be implying that he will certainly not discuss this in public. I hope he filed a detailed report, am assuming Indian post-mortem doctors work just like others in the rest of the world. Else his statement becomes a big, big problem - not to mention unprofessional. We <i>need</i> to know exactly *how* the victims were tortured, *when* each of the violence was applied to them in order to be able to clearly recognise the *purposes* of the torture.

Islamics torture out of spite (e.g. mutilation of Hindus on partition and in the 1972 genocide of Bangladesh's Dharmics by TSP's islam, mutilation of Indian soldiers during Kargil).
But I suspect that the tortures in the case of these Mumbai terrorist attacks - while they may perhaps outwardly carry marks of spiteful torture for show/passing the blame to islamism - could have a deeper layer of the actual violent methods used to obtain information.
- That is why the times of different torture marks, and the different tortures applied must be identified.
- Also need to know whether different identifying marks have been removed: i.e. finger tips (fingerprint identification), face especially eyes (the eyes of terrorists were blown as per Sandhya Jain), and other parts that are unique to people. In India's case, I doubt we have a databank of people's retinal scans. Even fingerprint IDs of a large number of important or suspicious/criminal people may not have been taken in India. Still, if the tortures used show that the victims were also stripped of identifying markers - as the terrorists double-crossed by US and UK western intelligence were - then it goes to further indicate what happened, who did it and therefore give an idea as to why they may have done it.

It is more than possible that many people may have been tortured and only a certain number interrogated, in order to conceal the nature of the event among more 'random terrorist'-looking tortures.

Also need to know the nationality/ethnicity of the victims of the torture, if unable to identify them otherwise. (For instance, check the skin-colour or do blood tests - if it's not too late for that already - to know whether victims of specifically the *interrogatory* forms of torture included Indians. Then need to know who they might be and why they were targeted.)

I also agree with whoever said that:
- a larger number of our population was likely to have been killed than they were letting on
- the shock/silence of the Congressi politicians indicated that this must be the case
I even think that the Congressis were apprised of what was to happen by their western superiors.
1. One Indian politician expressly delayed some Indian troop deployment (a night lost) by insisting on hitching a hike. Which politician would do that - even inept ones don't do that. This was on purpose: they could well have been given orders to delay in whatever way.
<b>EDITED:</b> Changed the quoteblock referred to - the following is what I meant.
<!--QuoteBegin-rraajjeevv+Nov 30 2008, 06:52 PM-->QUOTE(rraajjeevv @ Nov 30 2008, 06:52 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Demoralised DF doesn't even ask why intelligence failed
<b>Sources said though the plane carrying NSG Commandos was ready by midnight, it could not take off due to the delayed arrival of a VIP, who wanted to accompany them to Mumbai, at the Delhi airport. Worse, the Commandos had to wait for a vehicle at the Mumbai airport until morning. </b>
[right][snapback]91152[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->2. Similarly, the fact that the Indian armed forces were not given proper maps of the places - thanks goes to the colluding KKKongressi government.
3. The shocked silence of KKKongressis in seeing the carnage need not be that they didn't anticipate it/weren't apprised of it, but that they were told to expect a smaller death toll and finally saw the full scale of the monster they had let in.

Some more loose views on my part:
I think the whole "islamics were looking for US and American people in the hotels" is a ruse.
And I think this whole operation in Mumbai is a seriously ugly situation and don't know that India has a clue on how to deal with this sort of thing.

What I'd do is (first steps):
1. Get the Indian army out of Afghanistan. No need to fight AmeriKKKa's war. We need our army at home. Also Americans will either be studying them or subverting them or otherwise merely keeping them away from India's borders.
2. Close off all friendly relations with America and UK. These are terrorist nations. Although I think the ratio of involvement is 80%US and 20%UK, but that's just my guesstimate based on who's more likely to try such tactics.
3. Need stronger relations with Israel and Russia. (Possibly France? Not too sure, but I have my reasons). Russia is the only country (well, there's some possibility that China may be another) that can down the US, and can do so even now. Both Israel and Russia tend to be loyal to friends, though Russians show most loyalty to other Slavs.
4. Otherwise India needs to become fully autonomous. Certainly no relations with US/UK. Be like Japan which had closed itself off to the west after christian terrorism in its lands (until US came barging in on ships with their guns).

I always cringe when I hear of how Hindus in India and abroad praise AmeriKKKa as if it were an ally. If any country today were the 21st century follow up to nazi Germany, it would be AmeriKKKa: ruthless, more advanced than they let on, with plans for domination that we can't begin to fathom, the occasional outward act that they sympathise (when it suits them) all while working to break you up.

TSP and BD are threats to India, like a rabies infected dog is. AmeriKKKa (and UK) is to be feared like a determined assassin.

<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Dec 3 2008, 02:10 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Dec 3 2008, 02:10 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->News channels are reporting that today morning ATS allowed FBI to interrogate the captured gAzI.  Now, can there be a more moronic thing to do?  Engaging FBI or other such agencies will only be as dangerous if not more, as the striking gAzI-s themselves.  Will the morons ever learn?
[right][snapback]91327[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Like Sandhya Jain said. The cleaners have arrived. To clean up after themselves. And I'm sure KKKongressi government has been ordered to let the AmeriKKKan cleaners do their work.

Dhu's earlier comments:
<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Dec 2 2008, 08:53 AM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Dec 2 2008, 08:53 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->These are few articles needed to contextualize Sandhya Jain's train of thought about possible western involvement: (Titles are misleading)

Sub-prime scam behind Spitzer fall

Soros and the Democratic Party

Twin Tower façade

Her pioneer articles were removed when pioneer site was reformatted.
[right][snapback]91270[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Dec 1 2008, 10:33 PM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Dec 1 2008, 10:33 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->American intelligence has a way of showing up at the most unkely places.  There was also the heywood affair in mumbai.  ATS was one that issued order against Heywood leaving and was pursuing that lead as Heywood was whisked away <i>a la </i>Quattrocchi. 

- “He is definitely under our scanner as his name surfaced in a serious matter. We are still looking into the matter and he has not been given a clean chit yet,” said ATS chief Hemant Karkare. Heywood can’t leave India: ATS -

Has anyone looked into this angle yet?

Now, Karkare is finished off by minutely coordinate sniper fire after pursuing false Sadhvi case under central direction.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->a Muslim graveyard in Mumbai has said it will not bury the nine dead gunmen.  Spokesman Hanif Nalkhande said: "They are not Muslims. Islam does not permit this sort of barbaric crime."


Nalkhande knows more islam than those who killed & died following it!
edited: Husky, here:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Mumbai attacks: FBI interrogates arrested terrorist</b>
Agencies,  December 3, 2008

The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) on Wednesday interrogated the lone arrested terrorist in the Mumbai terror attacks. Ajmal Amir Kasab, along with nine other terrorists, executed the November 26 attacks in Mumbai.

A seven-member team of the US FBI and a team from the Scotland Yard of UK are in Mumbai to assess the Mumbai attacks. The FBI registered a case in connection with the audacious attacks that left around 200 people, including six Americans, dead. They are also assisting the Internet telephony signatures intercepted by Indian intelligence agencies when militants were receiving calls from their Lashkar-e-Taiba handlers from across the border.

As per the US laws, the FBI has to probe the death of any American citizen outside of the US and later submit a charge sheet.


<b>Pakistan won't hand over India's most wanted</b>

<b>Washington: Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari said on Tuesday his government was not responsible for last week's attacks on Mumbai and said he doubted India's claim the lone surviving gunman was a Pakistani.</b>

"The state of Pakistan is no way responsible," Zardari told CNN's Larry King Live program.

Indian has said the 10 terrorists who killed nearly 200 people in the three-day rampage in Mumbai were from a group based in Pakistan.

Azam Amir Kasav, the only gunmen not killed by Indian commandos, told investigators he is a Pakistani citizen, Mumbai police chief Hasan Gafoor said.

But Zardari said India has provided no proof the gunman is Pakistani. "We have not been given any tangible proof to say that he is definitely a Pakistani. I very much doubt ... that he's a Pakistani," Zardari said.

"The gunmen, plus the planners, whoever they are -- they are stateless actors who are holding hostage the whole world," he said.

Zardari said if India produced evidence that a Pakistani group was behind the attacks, his government would take action against them.

After the attacks, India renewed a long-standing demand Islamabad hand over about 20 terrorists New Delhi believes are hiding in Pakistan.

Zardari said if India provided proof against the fugitives, Pakistan would let its own judiciary handle the cases.

"If we had the proof, we would try them in our courts, we would try them in our land and we would sentence them, he said.


Larry King: Mr President the Indian government is demanding that your nation handover some 20 suspected terrorists who are believed to be living in Pakistan. What is your response to this...Among those are Dawood Ibrahim, a powerful gangster, Masood Azhar, a terror suspect from an Indian prison in exchange for the release of hostages. And Hafiz Mohammad a former chief of a terrorist group. Are you going to comply with that?

Zardari: I'm definitely going to look into all the possibility of any proof that is given to us that at the moment these are just names of individuals. No proof, no investigation, nothing has been brought to, forward. We have offered to take this step forward and cooperate with the Indians, I'm willing to have my security adviser and their security in charge of our internal security and their internal security head a joint committee, which we've proposed to the Indians for a joint investigation in all of the Bombay incident.

Larry King: And if you had the proof you would turn them over?

Zardari: If we had the proof we would try them in our courts, we would try them in our land, and we would sentence them.

(Inputs from CNN and Reuters)

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