^ Bodhi's important post above.
Bodhi, will you please try finding and posting some links on this for archival purposes.
About Sandhya Jain's "Reduce VIP security and interrogate survivors, please" article (the bits my comments relate to are reproduced below) and Dhu's comments on it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Dec 1 2008, 05:07 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Dec 1 2008, 05:07 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Meanwhile, a stunning piece from Sandhya Jain:
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:red'>Reduce VIP security and interrogate survivors, please    </span>
Sandhya Jain
01 Dec 2008
Some things deserve an immediate answer â how many terrorists were there actually; how did they reach their respective destinations inland; and is it possible that âsuper-terroristsâ simply walked out with the real survivors after having utilised the âmercenariesâ to the hilt, just as they had murdered the navigators of the boats that brought them to Mumbai?
Current media reports and government sources say that the terrorists came by sea, landing near the Gateway of India or Colaba. This certainly explains the attacks on the sea front hotels like Taj, Oberoi and the Nariman House. But the question remains â how did they get to the CST station, Cama Hospital, and other places inland? Someone must have provided transport and back-up.
By no logic can anyone believe that nine separate sites in a city could be held to ransom by just 10 men. It is particularly difficult to believe that gigantic hotels like the Taj could be ruined and scores of guests killed or injured by just two men (sometimes the figure goes to six). Even two men per floor could not have caused the kind of death and destruction that did happen. A small place like Nariman House, yes, but Taj and Oberoi â I donât believe it. And if there were six persons at Taj and at least two at Nariman House, that means only two persons destroyed the Oberoi?
Rediff.com has interviewed the doctors who conducted the post-mortems on the dead hostages and terrorists, and it is their expert opinion that a battle of attrition took place over three days at the Oberoi and Taj hotels. The mutilation of the bodies was unlike anything they had seen in their careers in forensics.
For one, the bodies of the victims bore horrible signs of torture. Now this is understandable if the victims are being tormented by half-human beasts, but it seems strange that two terrorists could simultaneously fight and keep Indian commandos at bay for 62 hours, and also have the time to torture their victims. Yet the doctors were emphatic that:
"It was apparent that most of the dead were tortured. What shocked me were the telltale signs showing clearly how the hostages were executed in cold blood."
To my mind, it seems apparent that the terrorists who kept the NSG commandos engaged and those who tortured and killed the hotel staff and guests were two separate groups.
This suspicion is intensified by the startling revelation that the terrorists also did not meet a clean death. Doctors who conducted the post-mortem said the bodies of the terrorists â especially their faces - were beyond recognition. The security forces identified the bodies as those of terrorists [on TV they said it was because of the presence of weaponry near the bodies].
One terrorist was shot through either eye (i.e., both eyes!!!). As the NSG commandos never got to such close range with the terrorists, and nobody commits suicide by shooting both his own eyes, it follows that the killers were somebody else. Since none of the hotel guests could have the kind of weaponry used in the conflict, this suggests the presence of a mysterious third party, making the terrorists the victims of a classic double-cross â the stuff of spy thrillers. Actually, it reminds one of the convenient murder of the alleged killer of President John F. Kennedy.
Hence it would be entirely in order to closely interrogate each and every guest, especially the foreign guests, before allowing them to leave the country. Without false emotionalism, we should also fingerprint them for the future; who knows what Interpol cooperation may throw up.
Top Russian counter-terrorism expert, Vladimir Klyukin, an Afghan war veteran, opines that the Mumbai attackers were not "ordinary terrorists" and were probably trained by the special operations forces set up in Pakistan by US intelligence prior to the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan. In his view, the nature of the Mumbai events suggests the signature of the 'Green Flag' special operations forces created by the Americans in Pakistan, just a year before the Soviet withdrawal.
Guerrilla operations of the Mumbai kind require at least two-three years of preparatory work with experienced instructors. Raw trainees cannot hold four huge complexes in a city to ransom for so long. The Russian Interfax news agency reported the former KGB veteran as surmising the involvement of at least 50 terrorists, given the geography and sheer scale of the attacks. This seems like a legitimate estimation.
What is more, the only way 9 coordinated attacks can occur simultaneously is by using Global Positioning Systems (GPS) or live maps for communication and control. These are not normally owned by private parties. Initial investigations also suggested that as many as seven terrorists included mostly British-born Pakistanis, and one does hope that these leads are not covered up. The reports also suggested some gunmen were captured, but later media reports highlighted that only one terrorists was caught alive at the railway station. So there is a lot of confusion here that needs to be cleared up.
Certainly the hints about British involvement, openly asserted by the outspoken Lyndon LaRouche, need investigation.Â
Media has been heavily criticized in some quarters for airing visuals of NSG commandos dropping on the hotel roofs from helicopters, and thus giving operational secrets away to the militants watching TV inside. If the criticism is to be valid, however, we will have to accept that the terrorists had more men inside who could be deployed to watch TV and give information which would enable them to react and rebuff the aerial assault. <b>There is no way 2 to 6 terrorists could torture victims sadistically and kill them brutally, watch TV, fight and keep the security forces at bay for 62 hours, and then kill themselves or each other in impossible ways. </b>
The death of terrorists points to a clear double-cross and also the possibility of the involvement of more than one religious denomination. That the terrorists did not prepare for death by carrying potassium cyanide is well known; nor did they simply intend to blow themselves up like the usual suicide bombers. The surviving terrorist has revealed that they were told of an escape plan â and no doubt that plan was used by those who killed their fellow terrorists and walked out free!
This writer has consistently stated that modern, late 20th-21st century jihad is qualitatively different from the medieval jihad in which Muslim armies led by generals or kings ran over much of the world in Europe, north Africa, and Asia. Contemporary jihad is a mercenary tool of Western colonialism, serving a colonial intent with devout slavishness, and this seems borne out by the events of Mumbai.
What remains to be seen, however, is whether or not the Islamic world wakes up to the reality of its own self-enslavement. India on its part has demonstrated that no matter how long it takes to get operational, no matter the cost in terms of live and property, the territory of Bharat Mata will be protected.
<b>It is more than likely that Pakistan was rebuked by its British and American âfriendsâ (read Masters) for agreeing to send the ISI chief to assist in the investigations, and forced to backtrack on a solemn assurance. The teams from Scotland Yard and America, ostensibly coming to assist India in the probe, are more likely trying to ascertain the extent of evidence with India. </b>
It is pertinent that the recovery of a satellite phone from the trawler abandoned with the body of the Gujarati captain revealed that the trawler had been hijacked to Karachi Port, and while there, calls were made even to Australia (where the CIA has a famous outpost!)
Interestingly, General Leonid Ivashov, who was Chief of Staff of the Russian armed forces when the Twin Towers tragedy happened on 11 September 2001, insists that there is no such thing as international terrorism and that âthe September 11 attacks were the result of a set-up. What we are seeing is a manipulation by the big powers; this terrorism would not exist without them.â Instead of faking a âworld war on terrorâ, the best way to reduce such attacks is through respect for international law and peaceful cooperation among countries and their citizens
[http://www.voltairenet.org/article133909.html]
Globalization creates the conditions for the emergence of this terror. It seeks to design a new world geo-strategic map; appropriate the resources of the planet; erase cultural identities; and subjugate States before a global oligarchy. Thus, terrorism, according to Gen. Ivashov, is an instrument of world politics, âa means to install a unipolar world with a sole world headquarters, a pretext to erase national borders and to establish the rule of a new world elite. It is precisely this elite that constitutes the key element of world terrorism, its ideologist and its âgodfatherâ.
Contemporary international terrorism combines the use of terror by State and non-State political structures to attain political objectives through intimidation of people, psychological and social destabilization, elimination of resistance inside power organizations, and the creation of appropriate conditions for the manipulation of the countriesâ policies and the behaviour of people. Media complicity helps. But terrorism is not possible without the support of political and business circles that wield the funds to finance it â and Pakistan is notoriously bankrupt.
http://vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayAr...spx?id=265<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[right][snapback]91221[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->After reading through Sandhya Jain's article above which acquainted me with various facts about the Mumbai attacks which I didn't know, I am in agreement with her.
I'm going to have to raise the most obvious matter here that directly follows from the above. And then some additional views on my part.
Submitting the possibility/high likelihood:
- That the torture was carried out not by islamics but by western intelligence
- The torture was the goal of the attacks: it was for purposes of interrogation. (And possibly followed by additional mutilation after death to conceal the identities of several victims, just as they had done to the islamic footsoldiers they used).
- If interrogation were the goal, it would make sense that had to keep an external facade of a terrorist attack going to keep their actual operations covered.
- That the western intelligence operation was intended to last the minimum of 3 or so days that it did, precisely because their interrogation to obtain the necessary information would take either a substantial amount of time or their interrogatory (torture) attention needed to be split over several victims.
The question then would be: what information were they after. To be able to even remotely answer that, need to know <i>who</i> they were interrogating. To know that, we need to identify the victims of their torture.
Related to that:
Viren's post 64 (also Mudy's earlier post) linking to news on "Doctors shocked at hostages's torture"
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. <b>It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again," he (doctor who did the post-mortem) said.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->With "<i>even</i> in my head" the doctor seems to be implying that he will certainly not discuss this in public. I hope he filed a detailed report, am assuming Indian post-mortem doctors work just like others in the rest of the world. Else his statement becomes a big, big problem - not to mention unprofessional. We <i>need</i> to know exactly *how* the victims were tortured, *when* each of the violence was applied to them in order to be able to clearly recognise the *purposes* of the torture.
Islamics torture out of spite (e.g. mutilation of Hindus on partition and in the 1972 genocide of Bangladesh's Dharmics by TSP's islam, mutilation of Indian soldiers during Kargil).
But I suspect that the tortures in the case of these Mumbai terrorist attacks - while they may perhaps outwardly carry marks of spiteful torture for show/passing the blame to islamism - could have a deeper layer of the actual violent methods used to obtain information.
- That is why the times of different torture marks, and the different tortures applied must be identified.
- Also need to know whether different identifying marks have been removed: i.e. finger tips (fingerprint identification), face especially eyes (the eyes of terrorists were blown as per Sandhya Jain), and other parts that are unique to people. In India's case, I doubt we have a databank of people's retinal scans. Even fingerprint IDs of a large number of important or suspicious/criminal people may not have been taken in India. Still, if the tortures used show that the victims were also stripped of identifying markers - as the terrorists double-crossed by US and UK western intelligence were - then it goes to further indicate what happened, who did it and therefore give an idea as to why they may have done it.
It is more than possible that many people may have been tortured and only a certain number interrogated, in order to conceal the nature of the event among more 'random terrorist'-looking tortures.
Also need to know the nationality/ethnicity of the victims of the torture, if unable to identify them otherwise. (For instance, check the skin-colour or do blood tests - if it's not too late for that already - to know whether victims of specifically the *interrogatory* forms of torture included Indians. Then need to know who they might be and why they were targeted.)
I also agree with whoever said that:
- a larger number of our population was likely to have been killed than they were letting on
- the shock/silence of the Congressi politicians indicated that this must be the case
I even think that the Congressis were apprised of what was to happen by their western superiors.
1. One Indian politician expressly delayed some Indian troop deployment (a night lost) by insisting on hitching a hike. Which politician would do that - even inept ones don't do that. This was on purpose: they could well have been given orders to delay in whatever way.
<b>EDITED:</b> Changed the quoteblock referred to - the following is what I meant.
<!--QuoteBegin-rraajjeevv+Nov 30 2008, 06:52 PM-->QUOTE(rraajjeevv @ Nov 30 2008, 06:52 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Demoralised DF doesn't even ask why intelligence failed
[...]
<b>Sources said though the plane carrying NSG Commandos was ready by midnight, it could not take off due to the delayed arrival of a VIP, who wanted to accompany them to Mumbai, at the Delhi airport. Worse, the Commandos had to wait for a vehicle at the Mumbai airport until morning. </b>
[right][snapback]91152[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->2. Similarly, the fact that the Indian armed forces were not given proper maps of the places - thanks goes to the colluding KKKongressi government.
3. The shocked silence of KKKongressis in seeing the carnage need not be that they didn't anticipate it/weren't apprised of it, but that they were told to expect a smaller death toll and finally saw the full scale of the monster they had let in.
Some more loose views on my part:
I think the whole "islamics were looking for US and American people in the hotels" is a ruse.
And I think this whole operation in Mumbai is a seriously ugly situation and don't know that India has a clue on how to deal with this sort of thing.
What I'd do is (first steps):
1. Get the Indian army out of Afghanistan. No need to fight AmeriKKKa's war. We need our army at home. Also Americans will either be studying them or subverting them or otherwise merely keeping them away from India's borders.
2. Close off all friendly relations with America and UK. These are terrorist nations. Although I think the ratio of involvement is 80%US and 20%UK, but that's just my guesstimate based on who's more likely to try such tactics.
3. Need stronger relations with Israel and Russia. (Possibly France? Not too sure, but I have my reasons). Russia is the only country (well, there's some possibility that China may be another) that can down the US, and can do so even now. Both Israel and Russia tend to be loyal to friends, though Russians show most loyalty to other Slavs.
4. Otherwise India needs to become fully autonomous. Certainly no relations with US/UK. Be like Japan which had closed itself off to the west after christian terrorism in its lands (until US came barging in on ships with their guns).
I always cringe when I hear of how Hindus in India and abroad praise AmeriKKKa as if it were an ally. If any country today were the 21st century follow up to nazi Germany, it would be AmeriKKKa: ruthless, more advanced than they let on, with plans for domination that we can't begin to fathom, the occasional outward act that they sympathise (when it suits them) all while working to break you up.
TSP and BD are threats to India, like a rabies infected dog is. AmeriKKKa (and UK) is to be feared like a determined assassin.
<b>ADDED:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Dec 3 2008, 02:10 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Dec 3 2008, 02:10 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->News channels are reporting that today morning ATS allowed FBI to interrogate the captured gAzI. Now, can there be a more moronic thing to do? Engaging FBI or other such agencies will only be as dangerous if not more, as the striking gAzI-s themselves. Will the morons ever learn?
[right][snapback]91327[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Like Sandhya Jain said. The cleaners have arrived. To clean up after themselves. And I'm sure KKKongressi government has been ordered to let the AmeriKKKan cleaners do their work.
Dhu's earlier comments:
<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Dec 2 2008, 08:53 AM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Dec 2 2008, 08:53 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->These are few articles needed to contextualize Sandhya Jain's train of thought about possible western involvement: (Titles are misleading)
Sub-prime scam behind Spitzer fall
Soros and the Democratic Party
Twin Tower façade
Her pioneer articles were removed when pioneer site was reformatted.
[right][snapback]91270[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Dec 1 2008, 10:33 PM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Dec 1 2008, 10:33 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->American intelligence has a way of showing up at the most unkely places. There was also the heywood affair in mumbai. ATS was one that issued order against Heywood leaving and was pursuing that lead as Heywood was whisked away <i>a la </i>Quattrocchi.Â
- âHe is definitely under our scanner as his name surfaced in a serious matter. We are still looking into the matter and he has not been given a clean chit yet,â said ATS chief Hemant Karkare. Heywood canât leave India: ATS -
Has anyone looked into this angle yet?
Now, Karkare is finished off by minutely coordinate sniper fire after pursuing false Sadhvi case under central direction.
[right][snapback]91241[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bodhi, will you please try finding and posting some links on this for archival purposes.
About Sandhya Jain's "Reduce VIP security and interrogate survivors, please" article (the bits my comments relate to are reproduced below) and Dhu's comments on it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Dec 1 2008, 05:07 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Dec 1 2008, 05:07 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Meanwhile, a stunning piece from Sandhya Jain:
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:red'>Reduce VIP security and interrogate survivors, please    </span>
Sandhya Jain
01 Dec 2008
Some things deserve an immediate answer â how many terrorists were there actually; how did they reach their respective destinations inland; and is it possible that âsuper-terroristsâ simply walked out with the real survivors after having utilised the âmercenariesâ to the hilt, just as they had murdered the navigators of the boats that brought them to Mumbai?
Current media reports and government sources say that the terrorists came by sea, landing near the Gateway of India or Colaba. This certainly explains the attacks on the sea front hotels like Taj, Oberoi and the Nariman House. But the question remains â how did they get to the CST station, Cama Hospital, and other places inland? Someone must have provided transport and back-up.
By no logic can anyone believe that nine separate sites in a city could be held to ransom by just 10 men. It is particularly difficult to believe that gigantic hotels like the Taj could be ruined and scores of guests killed or injured by just two men (sometimes the figure goes to six). Even two men per floor could not have caused the kind of death and destruction that did happen. A small place like Nariman House, yes, but Taj and Oberoi â I donât believe it. And if there were six persons at Taj and at least two at Nariman House, that means only two persons destroyed the Oberoi?
Rediff.com has interviewed the doctors who conducted the post-mortems on the dead hostages and terrorists, and it is their expert opinion that a battle of attrition took place over three days at the Oberoi and Taj hotels. The mutilation of the bodies was unlike anything they had seen in their careers in forensics.
For one, the bodies of the victims bore horrible signs of torture. Now this is understandable if the victims are being tormented by half-human beasts, but it seems strange that two terrorists could simultaneously fight and keep Indian commandos at bay for 62 hours, and also have the time to torture their victims. Yet the doctors were emphatic that:
"It was apparent that most of the dead were tortured. What shocked me were the telltale signs showing clearly how the hostages were executed in cold blood."
To my mind, it seems apparent that the terrorists who kept the NSG commandos engaged and those who tortured and killed the hotel staff and guests were two separate groups.
This suspicion is intensified by the startling revelation that the terrorists also did not meet a clean death. Doctors who conducted the post-mortem said the bodies of the terrorists â especially their faces - were beyond recognition. The security forces identified the bodies as those of terrorists [on TV they said it was because of the presence of weaponry near the bodies].
One terrorist was shot through either eye (i.e., both eyes!!!). As the NSG commandos never got to such close range with the terrorists, and nobody commits suicide by shooting both his own eyes, it follows that the killers were somebody else. Since none of the hotel guests could have the kind of weaponry used in the conflict, this suggests the presence of a mysterious third party, making the terrorists the victims of a classic double-cross â the stuff of spy thrillers. Actually, it reminds one of the convenient murder of the alleged killer of President John F. Kennedy.
Hence it would be entirely in order to closely interrogate each and every guest, especially the foreign guests, before allowing them to leave the country. Without false emotionalism, we should also fingerprint them for the future; who knows what Interpol cooperation may throw up.
Top Russian counter-terrorism expert, Vladimir Klyukin, an Afghan war veteran, opines that the Mumbai attackers were not "ordinary terrorists" and were probably trained by the special operations forces set up in Pakistan by US intelligence prior to the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan. In his view, the nature of the Mumbai events suggests the signature of the 'Green Flag' special operations forces created by the Americans in Pakistan, just a year before the Soviet withdrawal.
Guerrilla operations of the Mumbai kind require at least two-three years of preparatory work with experienced instructors. Raw trainees cannot hold four huge complexes in a city to ransom for so long. The Russian Interfax news agency reported the former KGB veteran as surmising the involvement of at least 50 terrorists, given the geography and sheer scale of the attacks. This seems like a legitimate estimation.
What is more, the only way 9 coordinated attacks can occur simultaneously is by using Global Positioning Systems (GPS) or live maps for communication and control. These are not normally owned by private parties. Initial investigations also suggested that as many as seven terrorists included mostly British-born Pakistanis, and one does hope that these leads are not covered up. The reports also suggested some gunmen were captured, but later media reports highlighted that only one terrorists was caught alive at the railway station. So there is a lot of confusion here that needs to be cleared up.
Certainly the hints about British involvement, openly asserted by the outspoken Lyndon LaRouche, need investigation.Â
Media has been heavily criticized in some quarters for airing visuals of NSG commandos dropping on the hotel roofs from helicopters, and thus giving operational secrets away to the militants watching TV inside. If the criticism is to be valid, however, we will have to accept that the terrorists had more men inside who could be deployed to watch TV and give information which would enable them to react and rebuff the aerial assault. <b>There is no way 2 to 6 terrorists could torture victims sadistically and kill them brutally, watch TV, fight and keep the security forces at bay for 62 hours, and then kill themselves or each other in impossible ways. </b>
The death of terrorists points to a clear double-cross and also the possibility of the involvement of more than one religious denomination. That the terrorists did not prepare for death by carrying potassium cyanide is well known; nor did they simply intend to blow themselves up like the usual suicide bombers. The surviving terrorist has revealed that they were told of an escape plan â and no doubt that plan was used by those who killed their fellow terrorists and walked out free!
This writer has consistently stated that modern, late 20th-21st century jihad is qualitatively different from the medieval jihad in which Muslim armies led by generals or kings ran over much of the world in Europe, north Africa, and Asia. Contemporary jihad is a mercenary tool of Western colonialism, serving a colonial intent with devout slavishness, and this seems borne out by the events of Mumbai.
What remains to be seen, however, is whether or not the Islamic world wakes up to the reality of its own self-enslavement. India on its part has demonstrated that no matter how long it takes to get operational, no matter the cost in terms of live and property, the territory of Bharat Mata will be protected.
<b>It is more than likely that Pakistan was rebuked by its British and American âfriendsâ (read Masters) for agreeing to send the ISI chief to assist in the investigations, and forced to backtrack on a solemn assurance. The teams from Scotland Yard and America, ostensibly coming to assist India in the probe, are more likely trying to ascertain the extent of evidence with India. </b>
It is pertinent that the recovery of a satellite phone from the trawler abandoned with the body of the Gujarati captain revealed that the trawler had been hijacked to Karachi Port, and while there, calls were made even to Australia (where the CIA has a famous outpost!)
Interestingly, General Leonid Ivashov, who was Chief of Staff of the Russian armed forces when the Twin Towers tragedy happened on 11 September 2001, insists that there is no such thing as international terrorism and that âthe September 11 attacks were the result of a set-up. What we are seeing is a manipulation by the big powers; this terrorism would not exist without them.â Instead of faking a âworld war on terrorâ, the best way to reduce such attacks is through respect for international law and peaceful cooperation among countries and their citizens
[http://www.voltairenet.org/article133909.html]
Globalization creates the conditions for the emergence of this terror. It seeks to design a new world geo-strategic map; appropriate the resources of the planet; erase cultural identities; and subjugate States before a global oligarchy. Thus, terrorism, according to Gen. Ivashov, is an instrument of world politics, âa means to install a unipolar world with a sole world headquarters, a pretext to erase national borders and to establish the rule of a new world elite. It is precisely this elite that constitutes the key element of world terrorism, its ideologist and its âgodfatherâ.
Contemporary international terrorism combines the use of terror by State and non-State political structures to attain political objectives through intimidation of people, psychological and social destabilization, elimination of resistance inside power organizations, and the creation of appropriate conditions for the manipulation of the countriesâ policies and the behaviour of people. Media complicity helps. But terrorism is not possible without the support of political and business circles that wield the funds to finance it â and Pakistan is notoriously bankrupt.
http://vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayAr...spx?id=265<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[right][snapback]91221[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->After reading through Sandhya Jain's article above which acquainted me with various facts about the Mumbai attacks which I didn't know, I am in agreement with her.
I'm going to have to raise the most obvious matter here that directly follows from the above. And then some additional views on my part.
Submitting the possibility/high likelihood:
- That the torture was carried out not by islamics but by western intelligence
- The torture was the goal of the attacks: it was for purposes of interrogation. (And possibly followed by additional mutilation after death to conceal the identities of several victims, just as they had done to the islamic footsoldiers they used).
- If interrogation were the goal, it would make sense that had to keep an external facade of a terrorist attack going to keep their actual operations covered.
- That the western intelligence operation was intended to last the minimum of 3 or so days that it did, precisely because their interrogation to obtain the necessary information would take either a substantial amount of time or their interrogatory (torture) attention needed to be split over several victims.
The question then would be: what information were they after. To be able to even remotely answer that, need to know <i>who</i> they were interrogating. To know that, we need to identify the victims of their torture.
Related to that:
Viren's post 64 (also Mudy's earlier post) linking to news on "Doctors shocked at hostages's torture"
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. <b>It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again," he (doctor who did the post-mortem) said.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->With "<i>even</i> in my head" the doctor seems to be implying that he will certainly not discuss this in public. I hope he filed a detailed report, am assuming Indian post-mortem doctors work just like others in the rest of the world. Else his statement becomes a big, big problem - not to mention unprofessional. We <i>need</i> to know exactly *how* the victims were tortured, *when* each of the violence was applied to them in order to be able to clearly recognise the *purposes* of the torture.
Islamics torture out of spite (e.g. mutilation of Hindus on partition and in the 1972 genocide of Bangladesh's Dharmics by TSP's islam, mutilation of Indian soldiers during Kargil).
But I suspect that the tortures in the case of these Mumbai terrorist attacks - while they may perhaps outwardly carry marks of spiteful torture for show/passing the blame to islamism - could have a deeper layer of the actual violent methods used to obtain information.
- That is why the times of different torture marks, and the different tortures applied must be identified.
- Also need to know whether different identifying marks have been removed: i.e. finger tips (fingerprint identification), face especially eyes (the eyes of terrorists were blown as per Sandhya Jain), and other parts that are unique to people. In India's case, I doubt we have a databank of people's retinal scans. Even fingerprint IDs of a large number of important or suspicious/criminal people may not have been taken in India. Still, if the tortures used show that the victims were also stripped of identifying markers - as the terrorists double-crossed by US and UK western intelligence were - then it goes to further indicate what happened, who did it and therefore give an idea as to why they may have done it.
It is more than possible that many people may have been tortured and only a certain number interrogated, in order to conceal the nature of the event among more 'random terrorist'-looking tortures.
Also need to know the nationality/ethnicity of the victims of the torture, if unable to identify them otherwise. (For instance, check the skin-colour or do blood tests - if it's not too late for that already - to know whether victims of specifically the *interrogatory* forms of torture included Indians. Then need to know who they might be and why they were targeted.)
I also agree with whoever said that:
- a larger number of our population was likely to have been killed than they were letting on
- the shock/silence of the Congressi politicians indicated that this must be the case
I even think that the Congressis were apprised of what was to happen by their western superiors.
1. One Indian politician expressly delayed some Indian troop deployment (a night lost) by insisting on hitching a hike. Which politician would do that - even inept ones don't do that. This was on purpose: they could well have been given orders to delay in whatever way.
<b>EDITED:</b> Changed the quoteblock referred to - the following is what I meant.
<!--QuoteBegin-rraajjeevv+Nov 30 2008, 06:52 PM-->QUOTE(rraajjeevv @ Nov 30 2008, 06:52 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Demoralised DF doesn't even ask why intelligence failed
[...]
<b>Sources said though the plane carrying NSG Commandos was ready by midnight, it could not take off due to the delayed arrival of a VIP, who wanted to accompany them to Mumbai, at the Delhi airport. Worse, the Commandos had to wait for a vehicle at the Mumbai airport until morning. </b>
[right][snapback]91152[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->2. Similarly, the fact that the Indian armed forces were not given proper maps of the places - thanks goes to the colluding KKKongressi government.
3. The shocked silence of KKKongressis in seeing the carnage need not be that they didn't anticipate it/weren't apprised of it, but that they were told to expect a smaller death toll and finally saw the full scale of the monster they had let in.
Some more loose views on my part:
I think the whole "islamics were looking for US and American people in the hotels" is a ruse.
And I think this whole operation in Mumbai is a seriously ugly situation and don't know that India has a clue on how to deal with this sort of thing.
What I'd do is (first steps):
1. Get the Indian army out of Afghanistan. No need to fight AmeriKKKa's war. We need our army at home. Also Americans will either be studying them or subverting them or otherwise merely keeping them away from India's borders.
2. Close off all friendly relations with America and UK. These are terrorist nations. Although I think the ratio of involvement is 80%US and 20%UK, but that's just my guesstimate based on who's more likely to try such tactics.
3. Need stronger relations with Israel and Russia. (Possibly France? Not too sure, but I have my reasons). Russia is the only country (well, there's some possibility that China may be another) that can down the US, and can do so even now. Both Israel and Russia tend to be loyal to friends, though Russians show most loyalty to other Slavs.
4. Otherwise India needs to become fully autonomous. Certainly no relations with US/UK. Be like Japan which had closed itself off to the west after christian terrorism in its lands (until US came barging in on ships with their guns).
I always cringe when I hear of how Hindus in India and abroad praise AmeriKKKa as if it were an ally. If any country today were the 21st century follow up to nazi Germany, it would be AmeriKKKa: ruthless, more advanced than they let on, with plans for domination that we can't begin to fathom, the occasional outward act that they sympathise (when it suits them) all while working to break you up.
TSP and BD are threats to India, like a rabies infected dog is. AmeriKKKa (and UK) is to be feared like a determined assassin.
<b>ADDED:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Dec 3 2008, 02:10 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Dec 3 2008, 02:10 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->News channels are reporting that today morning ATS allowed FBI to interrogate the captured gAzI. Now, can there be a more moronic thing to do? Engaging FBI or other such agencies will only be as dangerous if not more, as the striking gAzI-s themselves. Will the morons ever learn?
[right][snapback]91327[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Like Sandhya Jain said. The cleaners have arrived. To clean up after themselves. And I'm sure KKKongressi government has been ordered to let the AmeriKKKan cleaners do their work.
Dhu's earlier comments:
<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Dec 2 2008, 08:53 AM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Dec 2 2008, 08:53 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->These are few articles needed to contextualize Sandhya Jain's train of thought about possible western involvement: (Titles are misleading)
Sub-prime scam behind Spitzer fall
Soros and the Democratic Party
Twin Tower façade
Her pioneer articles were removed when pioneer site was reformatted.
[right][snapback]91270[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Dec 1 2008, 10:33 PM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Dec 1 2008, 10:33 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->American intelligence has a way of showing up at the most unkely places. There was also the heywood affair in mumbai. ATS was one that issued order against Heywood leaving and was pursuing that lead as Heywood was whisked away <i>a la </i>Quattrocchi.Â
- âHe is definitely under our scanner as his name surfaced in a serious matter. We are still looking into the matter and he has not been given a clean chit yet,â said ATS chief Hemant Karkare. Heywood canât leave India: ATS -
Has anyone looked into this angle yet?
Now, Karkare is finished off by minutely coordinate sniper fire after pursuing false Sadhvi case under central direction.
[right][snapback]91241[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->