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Christian Subversion And Missionary Activities - 5
^ Very important.


People keep talking about how christianism is receding in the west. Really?
Because it rather looks like the west is getting more christian by the moment.

1. http://atheists.org/ - "progressive UK"
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Council Bans Atheist Websites</b>
8/2/2008

The <b>Birmingham (UK) Council</b> bans web sites promoting witchcraft, "sexual deviancy," criminal ctivity -- <b>and Atheism.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Look how the christoterrorists in charge in UK's Birmingham have gone back to bracketing atheism with criminality, "sexual deviancy" and oh yeah witchcraft.

People wonder why only Hindu websites are taken down by the <b>christogovt</b> in India.

2. Christo AmeriKKKan heaven:
http://www.alternet.org/story/96945/theocr...on/?page=entire
via http://atheists.org/
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Theocratic Sect Prays for Real Armageddon</b>
By Casey Sanchez, Southern Poverty Law Center. Posted August 30, 2008.

Members of Joel's Army are fighting to bring about the millennial reign of Christ.

LAKELAND, Fla. -- Todd Bentley has a long night ahead of him, resurrecting the dead, healing the blind, and exploding cancerous tumors. Since April 3, the 32-year-old, heavily tattooed, body-pierced, shaved-head Canadian preacher has been leading a continuous "supernatural healing revival" in central Florida. To contain the <b>10,000-plus crowds flocking from around the globe</b>, Bentley has rented baseball stadiums, arenas and airport hangars at a cost of up to $15,000 a day. Many in attendance are church pastors themselves who believe Bentley to be a prophet and don't bat an eye when <b>he tells them he's seen King David and spoken with the Apostle Paul in heaven. "He was looking very Jewish," Bentley notes.</b>
(Oh yeah? And what do Jews look like? Anti-semite.)

<b>Tattooed across his sternum are military dog tags that read "Joel's Army."</b> They're evidence of Bentley's generalship in a rapidly growing apocalyptic movement that's gone largely unnoticed by watchdogs of the theocratic right. According to Bentley and a handful of other "hyper-charismatic" preachers advancing the same agenda, Joel's Army is prophesied to become an Armageddon-ready military force of young people with a divine mandate to physically impose Christian "dominion" on non-believers.

"An end-time army has one common purpose -- to aggressively take ground for the kingdom of God under the authority of Jesus Christ, the Dread Champion," Bentley declares on the website for his ministry school in British Columbia, Canada. "The trumpet is sounding, calling on-fire, revolutionary believers to enlist in Joel's Army. ... Many are now ready to be mobilized to establish and advance God's kingdom on earth."

Joel's Army followers, many of them teenagers and young adults who believe they're members of the final generation to come of age before the end of the world, are breaking away in droves from mainline Pentecostal churches. Numbering in the tens of thousands, they base their beliefs on an esoteric reading of the second chapter of the Old Testament Book of Joel, in which an avenging swarm of locusts attacks Israel. In their view, the locusts are a metaphor for Joel's Army.

Despite their overt militancy, there's no evidence Joel's Army followers have committed any acts of violence. <b>But critics warn that actual bloodletting may only be a matter of time for a movement that casts itself as God's avenging army.</b>

Those sounding the alarm about Joel's Army are not secular foes of the Christian Right, few of whom are even aware of the movement or how widespread it's become in the past decade. Instead, Joel's Army critics are mostly conservative Christians, either neo-Pentecostals who left the movement in disgust or evangelical Christians who fear that Joel's Army preachers are stealing their flocks, even sending spies to infiltrate their own congregations and sway their young people to heresy. And they say the movement is becoming frightening.

<b>"The pitch and intensity of the military rhetoric of this branch of the global Dominionist movement has substantially increased since the beginning of 2008," </b>writes The Discernment Research Group, a Christian watchdog group that tracks what they call heresies or cults within Christianity. <b>"One can only wonder how long before this transforms into real warfare with actual warriors."</b>
(Reminds me of the inside-look into variants of christianism that the documentary Jesus Camp (?) gave. These guys fit right in with the christoterrorist militants of India - all 6% of them.)

'Snorting Religion'

<b>Joel's Army believers are hard-core Christian dominionists, meaning they believe that America, along with the rest of the world, should be governed by conservative Christians and a conservative Christian interpretation of biblical law. There is no room in their doctrine for democracy or pluralism.</b>

Dominionism's original branch is Christian Reconstructionism, a grim, <b>Calvinist</b> call to theocracy that, as Reconstructionist writer Gary North describes, wants to "get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God."
(I was going to say it sounded very like Calvin's Theocracy to me...)

Notorious for endorsing the public execution by stoning of homosexuals and adulterers, <span style='color:blue'>the Christian Reconstructionist movement is far better known</span> in secular America than Joel's Army. That's largely because Reconstructionists have made several serious forays into mainstream politics and received a fair amount of negative publicity as a result. Joel's Army followers eschew the political system, believing the path to world domination lies in taking over churches, not election to public office.
(Look how christianism is exactly the same as islamism: it's only while they don't have their Theocracy, that the stoning hasn't started. But otherwise it will be the same as the Dar-Ul-Islams of Somalia, Afghanistan and a bunch of other islamic pardeesy places. I really don't understand when christians pretend they are so much better than 'medieval' islam. There's nothing medieval about these practises. These practises are christoislamic For All Time - Gawd Ordained. That's why in 21st century AmeriKKKa these things are being advocated AGAIN.
Hindus should spread the news of the backward, repugnant religion that christianism IS and the mental retardation that it invariably breeds. The only reason the majority of the west is not quite so bad now is the fact that neither christianism nor the church are in charge there anymore. Not to the same extent as before, at any rate.)

Another key difference between the two branches of dominionism, which maintain a testy, arms-length relationship with one another, is Christian Reconstructionism's buttoned-down image and heavy emphasis on Bible study, which contrasts sharply with Joel's Army anti-intellectual distrust of biblical scholars and its unruly style.

"Some people snort cocaine, others snort religions," Joel's Army Pastor Roy said while ministering a morning program at Todd Bentley's Lakeland, Fla., revival in late May.

As this article went to press, Bentley's "Florida Outpouring" had been running for more than 100 days straight. Many attendees came in search of spontaneous physical healing and a desire to be part of a mystical community marked by dancing, shouting, gyrating, speaking in tongues and other forms of ecstatic release.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Christians are sick. It goes on for several pages.

What happened to the lovely Swami Lakshmanananda - the brutal murder by christians - is a very christian thing.
Hindus who believe christianism has a right to continue to exist, automatically accept it has a right to murder them outright. Because that really is the only option it gives the Hindu: the 'right' to die (but only at its hands, note, not at your own).

<b>ADDED:</b> I ended up reading more when sending the link off to a friend. Better to know I suppose. Things keep getting ... what's the word... very much more christian=worse:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Snide jabs at traditional church services are fairly common at Bentley's revivals. In fact, what takes place onstage at the Florida Outpouring looks more like a pro wrestling extravaganza than church. On stage, Bentley and his team of pastors, yell, chant, and scream "Fire!" and "Bam!" while anointing followers.

The audience members behave as if they are at a psychedelic counterculture festival. One couple jumps up and down twirling red and silver metallic flags. Dyed-haired teenagers pulled in by the revival's presence on Facebook and MySpace wander around looking dazed. Women lay facedown on the floor, convulsing and howling. Fathers wail in tongues as their confused children look on. Strangers lay hands on those who fail to produce tongues or gyrate wildly enough, pressuring them to "let it out."

Bentley is considered a prophet both by his followers and by other leaders of the Joel's Army movement, whose adherents claim to be reviving a "five-fold ministry" of prophets, apostles, elders, pastors and teachers, as outlined in the Book of Ephesians. Not every five-fold ministry is connected to the Joel's Army movement, but the movement has spurred an interest in modern-day apostles and prophets that's troubling to the Assemblies of God, the world's largest Pentecostal church, which has officially disavowed the Joel's Army movement.

In a 2001 position paper, Assemblies of God leaders wrote that they do not recognize modern-day apostles or prophets and worried that "such leaders prefer more authoritarian structures where their own word or decrees are unchallenged." They are right to worry. Joel's Army followers believe that once democratic institutions are overthrown, their hierarchy of apostles and prophets will rule over the earth, with one church per city.

<b>Warrior Nation</b>
According to Joel's Army doctrine, the enforcers of the five-fold ministry will be members of the final generation, for whom the landmark Supreme Court decision Roe v. Wade constituted a new Passover.

"Everyone born after abortion's legalization can consider their birth a personal invitation to take part in this great army," writes John Crowder, another prominent Joel's Army pastor, who bills his 2006 book, <b>The New Mystics: How to Become Part of the Supernatural Generation, as a literal how-to guide for joining Joel's Army.</b>

Both Bentley and Crowder are enormously popular on Elijah's List, an online watering hole for a broad spectrum of Joel's Army enlistees, from lightweight believers who merely share an affection for military rhetoric and pastors who dress in army camouflage (several Joel's Army pastors are addressed by their congregants as "commandant" or "commander") to hardliners who believe the church is called to have an active military role in end-times that have already begun. <b>Elijah's List currently has more than 125,000 subscribers on its electronic mailing list.</b>

<b>Rick Joyner, a pastor whose books, The Harvest and The Call, helped popularize Joel's Army theology by selling more than a million copies each</b>, goes the furthest on Elijah's List in pushing the hardliner approach. In 2006, he posted a sermon called "The Warrior Nation -- The New Sound of the Church," in which he claimed that a last-day army is now gathering and <b>called believers "freedom fighters."</b>
(Freedom Fighters is christian parlance for what the islamaniacs call their mujahideen.)

<b>"As the church begins to take on this resolve, they [Joel's Army churches] will start to be thought of more as military bases, and they will begin to take on the characteristics of military bases for training, equipping, and deploying effective spiritual forces," Joyner wrote. "In time, the church will actually be organized more as a military force with an army, navy, air force, etc."</b>

In a sort of disclaimer, Joyner writes at one point that God's army "will bring love, peace and stability wherever they go." But several of his books narrate with glee what he describes as "a coming civil war within the church." In his 1997 book The Harvest he writes: "Some pastors and leaders who continue to resist this tide of unity will be removed from their place. Some will become so hardened they will become opposers and resist God to the end."

Two years later, in his book The Final Quest, Joyner described a vision (taken as prophecy in the Joel's Army world, where Joyner is considered an "apostle") of the coming Christian Civil War in which demon-possessed Christian soldiers enslave other, weaker Christians who resist them. He also describes how the hero of the novel -- himself -- ascends a "Holy Mountain" in order to learn new truths and to acquire new, magic weapons.
(They've been playing too much of the <i>Doom</i> VG in the US Army. I blame the US government for all this violent stupidity. They've been fostering christianism=ignorance+terrorism.)

<b>Kids on Fire</b>
Bentley, who claims to be a supernatural healer, is no less over the top, playing his biker-punk appearance and heavy metal theatrics to the hilt. On YouTube, where clips of his most dramatic healings have been condensed into a three-minute highlight reel, Bentley describes God ordering him to kick an elderly lady in the face: "I am thinking, 'God, why is the power of God not moving?' And He said, 'It is because you haven't kicked that women in the face.' And there was, like, this older lady worshipping right in front of the platform and the Holy Spirit spoke to me and the gift of faith came on me. He said, 'Kick her in the face ... with your biker boot.' I inched closer and I went like this [makes kicking motion]: Bam! And just as my boot made contact with her nose, she fell under the power of God."

The atmosphere is less charged with violence at <b>"The Call," a 12-hour revival of up to 20,000 youths</b> led by Joel's Army pastor Lou Engle and held every summer in a major American city (this year's event was scheduled for Washington, D.C. in August).

Attendees are called upon to fast and pray for 40 days and take up culture-war pledges to lead abstinent lives, reject pornography and fight abortion. They're further asked to perform "identificational repentance," lugging along family trees and genealogies to see where one of their ancestors may have enslaved or oppressed another so that they can make amends. (Many in the Joel's Army movement believe in generational curses that must be broken by the current generation).

As even his critics note, <b>Engle</b> is a sweet, humble and gentle man whose persona is difficult to reconcile with his belief in an end-time army of invincible young Christian warriors. Yet while Engle is careful to avoid deploying explicit Joel's Army rhetoric at high-profile events like The Call, when he's speaking in smaller hyper-charismatic circles to avowed Joel's Army followers, he can venture into bloodlust.

This March, at a <b>"Passion for Jesus"</b> conference in Kansas City sponsored by the International House of Prayer, or IHOP, a ministry for teenagers from the heavy metal, punk and goth scenes, <b>Engle called on his audience for vengeance</b>.

<b>"I believe we're headed to an Elijah/Jezebel showdown on the Earth, not just in America but all over the globe, and the main warriors will be the prophets of Baal versus the prophets of God, and there will be no middle ground," said Engle. He was referring to the Baal of the Old Testament, a pagan idol whose followers were slaughtered under orders from the prophet Elijah.</b>

"There's an Elijah generation that's going to be the forerunners for the coming of Jesus, a generation marked not by their niceness but by the intensity of their passion," Engle continued. "The kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force. Such force demands an equal response, and Jesus is going to make war on everything that hinders love, with his eyes blazing fire."
(See, no more PR about the 'Prince of Peace'. Jeebus' love is explicated here by those who know his non-existent character best: christians. Jeebus' love makes as much sense as the rest of christianism: "jesus is going to make war on everything that hinders love".)

Although Joel's Army theology is mainly directed at people in their teens and early 20s via events like The Call and ministries like IHOP, sometimes the target audience is even younger. <b>In some of the most arresting images in Jesus Camp, a 2006 documentary about the Kids on Fire bible camp in North Dakota, grade school-aged kids dressed in army fatigues wield swords and conduct military field maneuvers.</b> "A lot of people die for God and they're not afraid," one camper told ABC News reporters in a follow-up segment.

"We're kinda being trained to be warriors," added another, "only in a funner way."

<b>Cain and the Intellectuals</b>
<b>Both Christian and secular critics assailed the makers of Jesus Camp for referring to the camp's extremist, militant Christianity as "evangelical."</b> There is a name, however, that describes Kids on Fire's agenda, if you're familiar with their theology: Joel's Army. Pastor Becky Fischer, who runs the camp, said that a third of the kids at her camp were under 6 years old because they are "more in touch in the supernatural" and proclaimed them to be "soldiers for God's Army." Her camp's blend of end-times militancy and supernaturalism is perfectly emblematic of the Joel's Army movement, whose adherents believe their cause is prophesied in the Old Testament chapter titled "An Army of Locusts."

The stark, evocative passages of that chapter describe a locust swarm that lays waste to Israel (to this day, the region suffers periodic locust invasions): "Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such as never was of old nor ever will be in ages to come." As remarkable as the language is, most biblical scholars agree that it is a literal description of a locust invasion and resulting famine that occurred sometime between the 9th and 5th centuries B.C.E.

In the Book of Joel, the locust invasion is described as an omen that an Assyrian army to the north may attack Israel if it fails to repent as a nation. But nowhere is the invasion described as an army of God. According to an Assemblies of God position paper: "It is a complete misinterpretation of Scripture to find in Joel's army of locusts a militant, victorious force attacking society and a non-cooperating Church to prepare the earth for Christ's millennial reign."

The story of how an ancient insect invasion came to be a rallying flag for 21st-century dominonists begins just after World War II in Canada. Out of a small town in Saskatchewan, a Pentecostal preacher named William Branham spearheaded a 1948 revival in which he claimed that his followers lived in a new biblical time of "Latter Rain."

The most sinless and ardent of his flock would be called "Manifest Sons of God." By the next year, the movement was so strong -- and seemed so subversive to some -- that the Assemblies of God banned it as a heretic cult. But Branham remained a controversial figure with a loyal following; many of his followers believed him to be the end-times prophet Elijah.

Michael Barkun, a leading scholar of radical religion, notes that in 1958, Branham began teaching "Serpent Seed" doctrine, the belief that Satan had sex with Eve, resulting in Cain and his descendants. "Through Cain came all the smart, educated people down to the antediluvian flood -- the intellectuals, bible colleges," Branham wrote in the kind of anti-mainstream religion, anti-intellectual spirit that pervades the Joel's Army movement to this day. "They know all their creeds but know nothing about God."

<b>The Gates of Hell</b>

Branham was killed in a car accident in 1965, but his Manifest Sons of God movement, the direct predecessor of Joel's Army, lived on within a cluster of hyper-charismatic churches. In the 1980s, Branham's teachings took on new life at the <b>Kansas City Fellowship (KCF), a group of popular self-styled apostles and prophets who used the Missouri church as a launching pad for national careers promoting outright Joel's Army theology.</b>

Ernie Gruen, a local pastor who initially promoted and gave citywide credibility to KCF pastors in the early 1980s, cut his connections in 1990. Concerned about KCF's plans to push its teachings worldwide, Gruen published a 132-page insider's account, based on taped sermons and conversations and interviews with parents who had enrolled their kids in KCF's Dominion school.

<b>According to Gruen's report, students at the school were taught that they were a "super-race" of the "elected seed" of all the best bloodlines of all generations -- foreknown, predestined, and hand-selected from billions of others to be part of the "end-time Omega generation."</b>
(Oh no. Here we go again. So typically christian.)

Though he'd once promoted these doctrines himself, Gruen became convinced that the movement was turning into an end-times cult, marked by what he summarized as "spiritual threats, fears, and warnings of death," "warning followers to beware of other Christians" and exhibiting "a 'super-race' mentality toward the training of their children."
(Typical christian behaviour, first stage: identifying other christian 'heretic' groups.)

When contacted by the Intelligence Report, Gruen's spokesman said that Gruen stands by everything he published in the report but no longer grants media interviews.

The Kansas City Fellowship remains in operation and has served as a farm team for many of the all-stars of the Joel's Army movement. Those larger-than-life figures include John Wimber, the founder of a California megachurch, The Vineyard, who, before his death in 1997, proclaimed that Joel's Army would not only conquer the earth but defeat death itself. Lou Engle founded The Call based on the Joel's Army visions that KCF "prophet" Bob Jones (not to be confused with Bob Jones III of Bob Jones University) received while at KCF. Mike Bickle, another KCF member, stayed in Kansas City to form the International House of Prayer.

IHOP members and other Joel's Army adherents are well aware of how their movement is perceived by other conservative Christians.

"Today, you can type 'Joel's Army' into a search engine and a thousand heresy hunter websites pop up, decrying the very mention of it," writes John Crowder in The New Mystics. Crowder doesn't exactly allay critic's fears.<b> "This is truly warfare," he writes. "This battle is not a game. They [Joel's Army warriors] will not be on the defense; they will be on the offense -- and the gates of hell will not be able to hold up against them."</b>

So far, few members of the secular media have taken notice of Joel's Army, even as they report on Protestant dominionists like Pat Robertson or the more outrageous calls for the stoning of gays and lesbians emanating from Reconstructionist circles. There are exceptions, however. On the DailyKos, a well-read, politically liberal blog, a diarist has been blogging for two years about her experiences as a walkaway from a Joel's Army church. She writes under a pseudonym out of fear of physical reprisals.

She may have real cause for concern. As Wimber, the late founder of The Vineyard, put it in one of his most famous and fiery sermons, one that is still frequently cited by Joel's Army followers: <b>"Those in this army will have His kind of power. ... Anyone who wants to harm them must die."</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Before we/the rest of the unconverted world laughs at all this, remember history is full of instances of violent, mad and terrorist - even if comparatively small - mobs toppling civilisation. E.g. the terrorist mohammed, and the islami armies from Arabia that sent convert-or-prepare-to-fall ultimatums to both Greece and Persia. E.g. how Rome was destroyed by what started off as small conclaves of intolerant ignorant christians.
All this violent stupidity ought to be nipped in the bud. Who knows how.

This "joel's army", "the christian reconstructionists" and the zillions of other christianities (all mad) that keep springing up in Amerika are reminiscent of how Europe threw up so many strands of protestantism in such a short time. Intolerant Calvinism, Lutheranism, and the rest. It's all the same. Christianism is like this.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7572968/St-Thoma...f-India-Vol-III
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Partial contents and Random Selection of Titles of Articles in the St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India Vol. III INDIA . Indology. Indian Christianity Hinduism ~~Swami Siddinathananda Saiva Siddhantha ~~X. Irudayaraj Self-Understanding of Saiva Siddantha Scriptures ~~X. Irudayaraj Canonical Books of Saivism and Vaishnaviam in Tamil and Sanskrit ~~Ignatius Hirudayam The Nalayiram Prabandham ~~G.Michael Mans Relation to God in the Varuna Hymns ~~Noel Seth Revelation without a God ~~Francis Xavier DSa Judaism ~~George Punnakkottil Indian Cultural synthesis ~~N.K.Seshan Scope and Essentials of an Indian Theology ~~Kochumuttom Christianity and Shankaracharya ~~Richard De Smet Confucianism ~~M.Kanjirathingal

Islam ~~A.N.P.UmmerKutty Jainism ~~M.Kanjirathingal

World Religions ~~Albert Nambiapparambil The Research and Stufies by Western Missionaries and Scholars in Sanskrit Language and Literature ~~T.K.John Indian Theology ~~G.Gispert-Sauch s.j. Sikhism ~~M.Kanjirathingal Theological Encounter of Christianity with Indian Culture ~~T.M.Manikkam Baptist Theological Education in Andhra ~~W.Gordon Carder Inspiration and Revelation in the Quran ~~Sr.Arati Snow Zoroastrianism ~~M.Kanjirathingal The Guru In. Hinduism and Christianity ~~X.Irudayaraj Biblical Inspiration and the Inspiration of Non-Christian Scriptures ~~George Soares Prabhu Christians and Gujarati Literature ~~Joseph Mangalam

General Survey of Catholicism in India ~~J.Vallamattam Indian Christian Art ~~Matthew Lederle National Seminar:Church in India Today ~~Baleguar Indian Christians and Education ~~T.A.Mathias The Bombay 38th International Eucharistic Congress ~~M.M.Balaguer s.j. Visit to India of Pope Paul VI 1964 ~~M.M.Balaguer s.j. Catechetical development in India from 1955-1967 ~~H.Staffner Baptism in the Indian Christian Churches ~~Blaze Kadicheeni Baptism in the Syro-Malabar Church ~~Paul-Blaze Kadicheeni Liturgical Development in India ~~P.Puthanangady

Indian Youth and Liturgy ~~Gerwin Van Leuwen Church Music in South India ~~M.Amaladoss Church Music in Kannada ~~Felix Joseph Noronha Hinduism and the Missionary

~~R.H.Lesser Christian Contribution to the Industrial Development of India ~~Matthew Kalathil Indian Christians and Political Activities ~~L.Sebastiaraj Bible in Indian Languages ~~R.Van De Walle The Bible:Texts and Versions ~~K.Luke Goan Christians and Church Music ~~Lourdino Barreto Christianity and the Status of Women in India ~~Jean Paramjyothi Augustine Christians and Health-Care Services in India ~~Emmanuel Pallikkunnel

Indian Christians and Workers Movements ~~Thomas Joseph Indian Christians and Mass Communications Media ~~Dr.Fr.Gama The Ecumenical Christian Centre-Whitefield, Bangalore ~~M.A.Thomas Indian Christians and Family Planning ~~Marie-Mignon Mascarenhas 20th Century Trends in Christisnity ~~Abraham Adappur Indian Christians and the Law ~~Joseph Minattur

The Origin and Development of Psychological Tests for Priests ~~John Kalayil svd Indian Christians and Family Planning ~~Georger Lobo The Native Clergy in Goa :Recruitment and Formation ~~Carlos M. De Melo Christians and Nation Building Activities in India ~~John Pulparambil Common Elements in Christianity and Islam ~~G.Adelphi

Tamil Culture ~~Ignatius Hirudayam Theological Task of Indian Seminaries ~~O.M.Rao Detailed Histories of Certain Congregations and Societies as Examples: Society of Divine Word ~~Clarence Srambickal The Society of Jesus in India ~~E.J.Thomas Menachery s.j. Holy Family Congregation ~~Prof.Sr.Franco Franciscan Clarist Congregation ~~Sr.Maurus Vincentian Congregation ~~Jacob Kallarackal Fransalians or Missionaries of St Francis de Sales ~~Fr. Francis Mogept

Carmelites of Mary Immaculate ~~Fr.Anthony Institute of Brs. Of Xn Instruction of St Gabriel Society of St.Vincent De Paul ~~F Silyeira Capuchins ~~K. Luke Miss. Society of St Francis Xavier

The Congregation of the Mission ~~Fr.Thomas Maliekal Order of Preachers in India ~~Fr.Simon Roche Salesians of Don Bosco in India ~~Orestes Paviotti Missionaries St Francis de Sales ~~John Edacherry P. Srs. Of Charity of Sts.Bartholomeo Capitanio & Vincentia Gerosa The Adoration Congregation ~~Alphonso Maria Royal Convent of Santa Monica ~~Moreno DSouza Cong. of the Mother of Carmel Apostolic Carmel in India AICUF ~~James Pazhayattil St Thomas Hospital and Leprosy Centre ~~M. Aschoff Xavier Institute, Jamshedpur

~~Jayarajan Cath.Nurses Guild of India ~~Sr. M. Ella

Christian Institute for the Study of Religion & Society Catholic Hospital Association of India ~~Emmanuel Pallikkunnel The Apostleship of Prayer The Eucharistic Crusade ~~P.Wenisch Rumanian Orthox Episcopate of America S.H. College Shembagannur ~~V.C.George Indian Social Institute ~~Alfred DSouza Bom Jesus Shrine of St.Francis Xavier ~~Moreno DSouza Vidyajyothi, Delhi ~~V.C. George Shrine Basilica of O. L. of Vailankanni ~~Xavier Irudayaraj Jnanadeepa, Poona ~~Phillip Kalarickal The National Vocation Service Centre (NVSC) ~~E. Zeitler The Pontifical Association of the Holy Childhood ~~Stan F. Aranjo The Christian Nurses League

Catholic Youth Organisations in Indian Universities ~~Phillip Thomas The Student Christian Movement of India ~~S. Amritham and M. E. Prabhakar St. Marys Orphanage, Fatima Nagar ~~George T. Thekkekkara FEBAI Sacred Heart College, Thiruppattur ~~Principal Indian Christian Endeavour Union ~~B. K. Pramanik The Sodality of Our Lady (CLC) in India ~~Francis A. Benac The Sodality in Kerala ~~Bro. Louis Manjaly C.M.C. and Brown Memorial Hospital, Ludhiana Orthodox Churches in America Eastern Churches in India the Future ~~E. R. Hambye Doctrinal and Practical Implications of Inter Communion ~~George Lobo The Apostle of Sendamaram Joseph Ignaci ~~Pujol

Lazarus ~~Ferroli D. Missionary of the New Madura Mission Jean-Baptiste ~~Pujol St. John De Britto

Jacques Thomas De Rossi Francis Bertram (1870 1936) ~~Lawrence Sundaram Fr. Hadrian Caussanen (1850 1930) Fr. Santago James (1848 1926) ~~X. Irudayaraj Constantine Lievens of Chota Nagpur ~~Fr. Varghese Anikuzhi St. John De Britto ~~D. Mauricio Alcoholism and the Catholic Church in Bombay City ~~Augustus L. De Souza Rudolph Acquawiva and his Companions ~~J. Wicki Certain Liturgical Developments in Kerala ~~Charles Paingot Society of Holy Childhood John Paul II Visit

Hierarchal Centenary Some Thoughts on Sangham Age Christians of Kerala ~~J. J. Morris Early Christianity in Tamil Nadu ~~Devanayagam and Devakala Indias Ancient Monastic tradition ~~Francis Achrya Heads of NCCI Member Churches and Office Bearers Counselling ~~Dr.K.C.Joseph

M.S.Rajasekhara Ayer Noel Narayanaswami Ayer ~~Pujo Mrs.Marthammal T.S.Sundaram Ayer Rao Saheb Vincent Mahadeva Ayer - An Orthodox Brahmin J.VaidyaNatha Ayer BA LT A Brethern Mission of Andhra ~~K.Prasantha Kumar Christ For Andhra - Media Thrust ~~JNM Wijngaards Missionary Society of St.Thomas the Apostle Congregation of Mother of Carmel ~~Nirmala Province Trichur Pontifical Mission Aid Societies ~~Fr.Lucio da Veiga Coutinho Good Shepherd Minor Seminary - Diocese of Palai ~~Fr.George Choorkat Oriens Theological College, Shillong ~~Mathew Thundathil St.Pius College, Goregaon ~~Fr.Agnelo Gracias St.Pauls Regional Minor Seminary ~~S.Kuruvilla St.Marys Seminary, Patna ~~Fr. Thomas Olikathotty St.Marys Preparatory Seminary,Palayamkottai ~~Fr.S.Jayapalan Northeast India Baptist Bible College

~~Rev.J.K.Joseph St.Pauls Minor Seminary IinJalaKuda ~~Fr. Arikat VidyaJyothi, Delhi All India Mission Seminary, Pilar, Goa St.Michaels Minor Seminary, Belgaum ~~Msgr.E.Mascarenhas Patriarchal Seminary of Rachol

Mary Matha College, Kanjirappally ~~Fr.Sebastian Ullatt Ishvani Kendra, Pune ~~Fr.Augustine Kanjamala SH Theological College, Shillong ~~Fr.G.Plathottam Sothern Asia Bible College, Bangalore ~~Rev.O.G.Yesudas SH Church, Meghalaya ~~Rev.Fr.A.Buocieeri sdb The Sunday Liturgy ~~Fr.Joseph Thensseril St.Alberts College,Ranchi ~~Jos De Cuype
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7535621/Islam-an...m_related_doc=1


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http://www.scribd.com/doc/7535621/Islam-an...m_related_doc=1

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7601009/Could-no...m_related_doc=1

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7618863/GLORY-OF...m_related_doc=1

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This is an English version of an Urdu treatise written by the Holy Founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908). The theme is the escape of Jesus from death on the cross, and his journey to India in search of the lost tribes of Israel. Christian as well as Muslim scriptures, and old medical and historical books including ancient Buddhist records, provide evidence about this journey. Jesus is shown to have reached Afghanistan, and to have met the Jews who had settled there after deliverance from the bondage of Nebuchadnezzar. From Afghanistan Jesus went on to Kashmir, where other Israelite tribes had settled. There he made his home, and there in time he died; his tomb has been found in Srinagar.
• 
PREFACE
Jesus in India is an English version of Masih Hindustan mein, an Urdu treatise written by the Holy Founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835 - 1908).
The main thesis expounded in the treatise is Jesus' escape from an ignominious death on the Cross and his subsequent journey to India in quest of the lost tribes of Israel whom he had to gather into his fold as mentioned in the New Testament.
Abundant evidence has been furnished from Christian as well as Muslim Scriptures, old medical books and books of history, including ancient Buddhistic records, to illustrate the theme.
Starting upon his journey from Jerusalem and passing from thence through Nasibus and Iran, Jesus is shown to have reached Afghanistan, where he met the Jews who had settled there after their deliverance from the bondage of Nebuchadnezzar.
From Afghanistan Jesus went to Kashmir, where some Israelite tribes had also settled. He made this place his home and here he died. His tomb has been traced and found in Khanyar Street, Srinagar.
In the section dealing with the evidence adduced from ancient Buddhistic records, Hazrat Ahmad has resolved a question which, owing to its difficult nature, has for a long time confounded many a Western writer.
These writers have been baffled by the striking resemblance that exists between Christian and Buddhistic teachings and between the life events of both Jesus and Buddha as revealed in their respective Scriptures.
Some of these writers hold the view that Buddhistic teachings must somehow have reached Palestine and been assimilated by Jesus in his own sermons. But there is absolutely no historical proof to support this theory.
A Russian traveller named Nicolas Notovitch stayed for quite some time with Lamas in Tibet and had their sacred books translated for him. He is of the opinion that Jesus must have come to Tibet before the crucifixion and gone back to Palestine after having imbibed Buddhistic teachings. This also is a mere statement unsupported by reliable historical evidence.
Repudiating both these views, Hazrat Ahmad writes that Jesus came to India not before the event of the Cross but after it and that it was not he who borrowed Buddhistic teachings but the followers of Buddha who seem to have reproduced the entire picture of the Gospels in their books.
According to Hazrat Ahmad Jesus also visited Tibet during his travels in India in search of the lost tribes of Israel. He preached his messages to Buddhistic monks, some of whom were converted Jews. The followers of Buddha were deeply impressed by his teachings and took him to be the manifestation of Buddha and their Promised Teacher. With faith in him as their Master, they mixed his teachings with their own records and ascribed it all to the Buddha. Ample evidence in support of this is furnished from ancient Buddhistic records.
Masih Hindustan mein was written in 1899 and it marks the end of an era in which for centuries Muslims and Christians had believed in the ascension of Jesus to Heaven. It being the first book ever written on the subject with such a rational approach, the book produced a most profound impact.
Its arguments were broadcast and in the past half-century it has achieved remarkable success in divesting Jesus of false appurtenances of divinity and in presenting him to the world merely as a divine prophet as he actually was.
In Muslim circles the effect has been so marked that the Rector of the Al-Azhar University in Cairo issued a Fatwa (verdict) that according to the Holy Quran Jesus had died a natural death. Its influence on the Christian mind has also been greatly disturbing.
As stated in the Introduction and also at the end of the book, Hazrat Ahmad intended to write a second part in which he would have given, besides some additional proofs of Jesus' journey to India, a comparative evaluation of the teachings of Islam and Christianity with some cogent arguments in proof of the truth of Islam as well as of his own claim to be the Promised Messiah.
Though no other book among his writings bears this title, yet Hazrat Ahmad has discussed thoroughly all these issues with many more important ones concerning the truth of Islam, of his own claim and of the death of Jesus in quite a number of books which he wrote after the above-mentioned book.
The present English translation was made by Qazi Abdul Hamid, formerly editor of a weekly, The Sunrise, Lahore, in which it appeared serially during 1938-39. It was first published in book form in 1944 by Nashr-o-Ishaat, Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya, Qadian.
Besides others who have assisted us in any way in the production of this book, our thanks are due to Mr. Mauloud Ahmad Khan, a former Imam of the London Mosque, who went to great pains to gather relevant quotations from the original books which have been referred to by Hazrat Ahmad in support of his thesis. The quotations have been attached to the book in the form of an appendix.
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http://www.scribd.com/doc/3261220/Acharya-...m_related_doc=1


Description

In this highly controversial and explosive book, archaeologist, historian, mythologist and linguist Acharya S marshals an enormous amount of startling evidence to demonstrate that Christianity and the story of Jesus Christ were created by members of various secret societies, mystery schools and religions in order to unify the Roman Empire under one state religion. In making such a fabrication, this multinational cabal drew upon a multitude of myths and rituals that already existed long before the Christian era, and reworked them for centuries into the story and religion passed down today.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7535379/Hitler-W...m_related_doc=1

Description

Through subterfuge and concealment, many of today’s Church leaders and faithful Christians have camouflaged the Christianity of Adolf Hitler and have attempted to mark him an atheist, a pagan cult worshipper, or a false Christian in order to place his misdeeds on those with out Jesus. However, from the earliest formation of the Nazi party and throughout the period of conquest and growth, Hitler expressed his Christian support to the German citizenry and soldiers. Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to history books before they address their pews and chat rooms.

If rivalry and enmity between Jews and Arabs in the region were sad enough,here is how the Christian Orthodox community spread the message of Christian love!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/f...icle5121217.ece

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Riot police called as monks clash in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre
Israeli riot police rushed into one of Christianity's holiest churches Sunday and arrested two clergyman after an argument between monks erupted into a brawl next to the site of Jesus' tomb.

The clash between Armenian and Greek Orthodox monks broke out in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, revered as the site of Jesus' crucifixion, burial and resurrection.

Dozens of worshippers traded kicks and punches, knocking down tapestries and toppling decorations at the site in Arab East Jerusalem.

The brawling began during the Feast of the Cross, a procession of Armenian clergymen commemorating the 4th-century discovery of the cross believed to have been used to crucify Jesus.

Times Archive
1834: Shocking catastrophe at the Holy Sepulchre
1961: Copts and Ethiopians dispute at Holy Sepulchre


The Greeks objected to the march without one of their monks present, fearing that otherwise, the procession would subvert their own claim to the Edicule — the ancient structure built on what is believed to be the tomb of Jesus — and give the Armenians a claim to the site.

The Armenians refused, and when they tried to march the Greek Orthodox monks blocked their way, sparking the brawl.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said police were forced to intervene after fighting was reported. They arrested two monks, one from each side.

A bearded Armenian monk in a red-and-pink robe and a black-clad Greek Orthodox monk with a bloody gash on his forehead were both taken away in handcuffs after scuffling with dozens of riot police.

Six Christian sects divide control of the ancient church. They regularly fight over turf and influence, and Israeli police are occasionally forced to intervene.

"We were keeping resistance so that the procession could not pass through ... and establish a right that they don't have," a young Greek Orthodox monk with a cut next to his left eye told AP.

The monk, who gave his name as Serafim, said he sustained the wound when an Armenian punched him from behind and broke his glasses.

Father Pakrat of the Armenian Patriarchate said the Greek demand was "against the status quo arrangement and against the internal arrangement of the Holy Sepulchre." He said the Greeks attacked first.

Archbishop Aristarchos, the chief secretary of the Greek Orthodox patriarchate, denied his monks initiated the violence.

After the brawl, the church was crowded with Israeli riot police holding assault rifles, standing beside Golgotha, where Jesus is believed to have been crucified, and the long smooth stone marking the place where tradition holds his body was laid out.

The feud is only one of a bewildering array of rivalries among churchmen in the Holy Sepulchre.

The Israeli government has long wanted to build a fire exit in the church, which regularly fills with thousands of pilgrims and has only one main door, but the sects cannot agree where the exit will be built.

A ladder placed on a ledge over the entrance sometime in the 19th century has remained there ever since because of a dispute over who has the authority to take it down.

More recently, a spat between Ethiopian and Coptic Christians is delaying badly needed renovations to a rooftop monastery that engineers say could collapse.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Cretins spew more Cretinous Bile. How much more of it are Hindus going to put up with before they start exposing 'christianism'=Cretinism for the hateful Lie that it is?

<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Nov 12 2008, 04:33 PM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Nov 12 2008, 04:33 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->A repeat of the christoterrorism in Karnataka, now in TN: doing their disgusting best to provoke Hindus in TN so christos can shriek "persecution" again

http://newstodaynet.com/col.php?section=20&catid=29
via http://haindavakeralam.com/HkPage.aspx?P...514&SKIN=C
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Blasphemous distortions</b>
By: B R HARAN letters@newstodaynet.com

Tuesday, 11 November, 2008 , 02:18 PM

ATamil weekly magazine has reported the following in its latest issue (dated 14 November): (<- that's obviously a typo meant to be 4 November).
Active Image

Book titled ‘Light in Darkness’

<b>‘On Friday 24 October, the devotees of the world famous ‘Sri Kapalishwarar Temple’ Mylapore, Chennai were literally shocked when they were given five booklets each containing defamatory write-ups about Hinduism, Vedas, Vedic heritage, Hindu Shastras, Hindu culture & tradition, Sabarimala Ayyappan and denigrating articles on Sage Thirumoolar, Nayanmars and others, by a bunch of mean-minded Christian evangelists just in front of the Temple entrance!</b> For example, in the book titled ‘Light in darkness’, it is written that, the word ‘Sadhaa’ in the verse ‘Sadhaa Shivaaya’ means ‘forever’ and there is only one God, who blesses and takes care of this world forever, and he is ‘Jesus’ and the verse ‘Sadhaa Shivaaya’ denotes only him! All the five books are said to have contained more defamatory stories about Hindu Gods and Religious Gurus. Many people have called up this magazine and sent mails to it giving complete details about what happened in front of the temple that day’.

<b>Incidentally, the Santhome Cathedral stands on the ruins of the original Kapalishvarar Temple, which was destroyed by the Portuguese invaders and now the evangelical invaders are trying to destroy the Hindu culture and religion in front of this reconstructed Kapalishvarar Temple.</b>

This outrageous incident has brought out the following facts:

<b>The evangelists have made bold to distribute blasphemous literatures and conduct a hate-campaign against Hinduism, that too in front of a very famous historic temple.</b>

The minority appeasement policies of a ‘minority’ government, which openly said that it is committed to the welfare of minorities, and its anti-majority stand have emboldened these evangelists to indulge in this kind of illegal activity.

The policemen who have been posted near the temple for security (Mylapore temple is under terror threat) have turned a blind eye to this venomous act, probably due to fear motivation from the ‘minority’ government or money motivation from the evangelists.

The Hindus have just exposed their ‘dhimmitude’ by remaining passive without acting against those evangelists. Sadly, not even one devotee has exhibited the courage to lodge a police complaint against them. The traders near the temple have not bothered to drive away those Christian rapscallions. Certainly the number of devotees must have easily outnumbered those evangelists and they must have caught them with their collars and taken them to the Mylapore police station. Instead of doing all this, some people have written to this particular weekly magazine.

Similarly, in Coimbatore, on 24 September, <b>five staff of Chennai based ‘East Coast Christian Matriculation School’ have been arrested by the police for distributing blasphemous literatures propagating Christianity and degrading Hindu Gods and engaging in evangelisation.</b> The police action has been prompted by the complaint given by the local people belonging to BJP and Hindu Makkal Katchi, who caught those evangelists and took them to the nearby police station. <b>Ironically those evangelists have asked the students (most of them are Hindus) to distribute those pamphlets and the innocent students have obeyed the order out of fear.</b> This has been done while taking the students on an excursion (study tour) to Ooty. If this is the way study tours are conducted by a Christian School, one can imagine the standard of education imparted by it.

In this context, it must be noted that in most of the schools run by the various Christian denominations, Hindu students (who obviously are more in number) are not allowed to sport ‘Thilaks’ on their forehead and girl students are not allowed to have flowers on their heads. <b>Last year a boy was reprimanded and sent out by the management of a Christian school in Chennai city for having applied ‘Mehendi’ in his palms. His parents were made to run from pillar to post to reinstate him. In another school in Dindigul, some boys, who were ‘fasting’ for Sabarimala pilgrimage, were allowed to write their examinations only after having a haircut and removing their ‘Tulasi Maalaas’.</b> In certain schools ‘Bible’ is being taught and the Hindu students are forced to attend such classes. The parent community is also aware of these kinds of tortures undergone by their wards, but they prefer to keep quiet in the fear that their wards’ education would be affected.

Recently in a Church in Kakkan Nagar, in the Ambedkar slum dwellings of <b>Adambakkam, a Chennai suburb, the pastor, during morning prayers, had openly ridiculed the practice of Abishekams of Amman Deities saying that ‘they are nude & naked worships performed with an erotic motive’. As the Pastor was addressing a group of ‘converts’, his blasphemous speech was heard by the slum dwellers through loud speakers. A Hindu woman, who was drawing drinking water from a nearby Municipal water-pump, got outraged by the blasphemous speech, threw out the water from her vessel and filled it with gutter from the nearby ditch and threw it inside the Church. <!--emo&Big Grin--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> Only then the Hindu men realised the seriousness of the issue and reportedly damaged the windowpanes of the Church.</b> The Pastor lodged a police complaint and the police promptly booked those Hindus, who damaged the windowpanes, and the Pastor, who was the real culprit as per the law of the land, went Scot-free!
(DMK govt=christogovt)

These incidents may look like isolated due to the fact that the Hindus rarely exhibit courage to take on those evangelists, but these strategies adopted by the Church and missionaries are a regular phenomenon going on for years in the state. <b>Mariamman and Aiyappan are two Deities, which attract millions of devotees, particularly the Scheduled Castes, as evidenced by the Sabarimala pilgrimage and Melmaruvaththur pilgrimage. Since the SCs are the targeted audience of the evangelists, the Churches come out with literatures, pamphlets and books denigrating Goddess Amman and Swami Aiyappan and ridiculing their worship.</b>
(All christoislamicommuniterrorists always terrorise Harijan and Girijan Hindus, while internationally they whine about the oppression of some type of christoislamics called 'dalits' or something)

An evangelist by name <b>Dr Theivanayagam has founded an organisation by name ‘Diravida Aanmeega Iyakkam’ (Movement of Dravidian Spiritualism) to spread the concept of ‘Thomas Christianity’,</b> in the name of ‘Aadhi Christhuvam’ (Early Christianity). Through this concept, he attempts to project Shivisim and Vishnavism as sub sects of Christianity. He wrote a book titled ‘Vivliyam (Bible), Thirukkural, Saiva Siddantham - Oppu Ayvu’ (Comparative Research) and published it in 1985-86 and has been steadfastly campaigning on this concept since then. Very recently, <b>he convened ‘Agila Ulaga Dravida Samaya Maanaadu’ (International Dravidiyan Spiritual conference) under the aegis of Mylapore diocese, in which the following blasphemous distortions were projected as researched facts:</b>

‘Aadhi Christhuvam’ (Early Christianity) was promulgated and established in Tamilnadu by St.Thomas is the original religion of the Tamils.

The Aryan invaders distorted Thoams Christianity and conceived new concepts called Shivism and Vishnavism and hence they must be treated as the sub sects of Thomas Christianity.

The ‘holy trinity’ of ‘Father-Son-Holy Spirit’ is denoted by ‘Shiva-Muruga-Shakthi’ and the same is also denoted by ‘Brahmma-Vishnu-Rudran’

The ‘holy trinity’ concept has beautified the Indian Religions. The ‘Holy Spirit-Father’ combination can be identified with ‘Arthanarishvarar’ and ‘Sankaranarayanar’ formations.
(Yet more proof of why Cretinism promotes imbecility. Eewwwww. Who wants to get infected with Cretin's Disease?)

St Thomas’s teachings were abounding in Thirukkural and Sage Thiruvalluvar was a disciple of St Thomas.
(Ishwar Sharan has repeatedly exposed christoliar Theivanayagam/Deivanayagam and all his lies given above and below.)

<b>Many such blasphemous distortions were presented in the conference. Close on the heels of the conference the inauguration of the Rs.50 crore production of a movie on St.Thomas was also conducted. The Chief Guest of the inauguration was none other than the Tamilnadu Chief Minister Karunanidhi,</b> who waxed eloquent on the ‘supposed’ history of St.Thomas, despite having excellent knowledge on Thiruvalluvar and Thirukkural.  <b>Dr Deivanayagam has recently released a book titled ‘Thiruneeraa, Siluvaiya?’ (Sacred Ash? Or, The Cross?), in which, he has again brought out blasphemous distortions.</b> A few examples are given below:

<snipped further christian spew.>

<b>All these things go to show that a sustained campaign has been going on for years and the momentum keeps on increasing with foreign aids and local support.</b> The Dravidian political parties, which are bent on alienating the Tamils from the Hindu fold, have been aiding and abetting these anti-Hindu forces and this unholy nexus between them is creating havoc in the society. Though the Religious Gurus are deeply concerned about the speedy developments in this area of evangelisation and the alarming rate of conversion going on in the state, they feel helpless and fear the Dravidian rulers. So, the onus lies purely on political and social Hindu organisations to take legal actions against persons like Deivanayagam and their organisations for destroying the Hindu cultural heritage and Religious traditions posing a danger to communal harmony.

Evangelisation has gone beyond the limits of tolerance by abusing the constitutional provisions for freedom of religion and the general public must also be aware of their moral responsibility to act against those who indulge in blasphemy against their religion and the government machineries must also act as per the rule of law.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Christians always behave like this. Just like in Rome. It's their evil ideology. It must be destroyed.
Christianism and its cannibal pseudo-'sheep' are working hard in different parts of India, all towards the same goal.
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Hindus should warn the entire Hindu body of how cretinism='christianism' is deadlier than AIDS and how it's unfortunately <i>not just an STD</i>. As we have seen with the examples of TheovanayaKKKam and the other terrorist cretins given above, immediate mental degeneration follows when infected by cretinism. Protect your loved ones. Save your countrymen. Immunise all by spreading the truth on cretinism (awareness campaign on "Cretin's Disease: Worse Than All STDs Put Together!").
^ Recent spate of christian terrorism against Hindus in Hindu Tamizh Nadu


Note the <b>christian pattern of timing various significant christoterrorist events</b>. They believe that they gain the spiritual upper hand in their battle against inconvertible unbelievers when they commit their disgusting gawdly violence on the heathens' holy days, and in holy places besides. Christians take this stuff seriously. Their point is to make a day of our rejoicing into a day of mourning or misery for us instead. Similarly with places of sanctity. (You know, the way the christocommunist Khmer Rouge murdered Buddhists in Cambodia's Buddhist temples in order to turn those temples into places of abject fear for the contemporary and subsequent generations. Or the way that western christendom attacked and then defiled Greek Orthodoxy's Sofia Church during the crusades. Greek orthodox hold that the profane acts committed there were expressly done.)

<b>Some events in chronological order:</b>
1. Pope invaded Buddhist S Korea in the Korean Buddhist holy period of Buddha's Birthday holiday
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1984 May.
Ignoring the pleas of Buddhist leaders, the Roman Catholic Church invites <b>Pope John Paul II to visit South Korea to celebrate the bicentennial of the church in Korea. This event happens to fall during the annual national Buddha's Birthday holiday celebrations.</b> Because it is the first ever visit of a Roman pontiff to South Korea, and because the Vatican announces that 93 Koreans and 10 French missionary martyrs will be beatified as saints during the visit, the visit becomes a major national event. It is the first time that a canonization ceremony is held outside of Rome and the largest number ever canonized at one time. This ceremony gives Korea the fourth largest number of Catholic saints in the world. When the Pope tours the country, in the days immediately preceding and during Buddha's Birthday, there are immense traffic jams which diminish attendance at Buddhist events in several key cities. Buddhist leaders protest the timing of the event as "disrespectful" and "in bad taste" because the Korean and Roman Catholic Churches schedule the mass beatification ceremonies to take place during Buddha's Birthday celebrations, a day sacred to Buddhists and a national holiday.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->2. Pope invaded India around Hindu holy time of Deepavali to announce to his cretins in India that it was time to cretinise us and our country
3. Kanchi Shankaracharya was arrested on the Hindu holy day of Deepavali, an event for which the greedy traitor-facilitator Jayalalitha was no doubt handsomely rewarded by christofunds. (Later the Shankaracharya would be tortured by faithful christoterrorist 'police'men when in prison. And they kept him in a cell infested by snakes whereas the other cells were empty: no other prisoners were to be subjected to the same dangerous conditions.)
http://news.indiainfo.com/2004/11/15/1511swamy.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"incomprehensible why Sankaracharya had to be arrested on Deepavali eve"<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Nothing incomprehensible about it. It's very christian.
4. Lakshmanananda was murdered by christoterrorists on the Hindu holy day of Krishnasthami <i>in a Hindu temple</i>
5. Sadhvi framed on charges of some concoction called 'Hindu terrorism' by christogovt, christomedia and cryptos/christoconditioned/christobribed police around Hindu holy day of Deepavali. And of course, the latter tortured her.
http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008...the-eyewitness/
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->S.Sundararaman November 4th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
There is a striking similarity with the way Kanchi Sankaracharya was tried to be done in by the Police 4 years ago on a Deepavali day. Deepavali seems to be the season for the frame up of Sadhus and Sadhvis. In all the Bomb blasts cases the foot soldiers are arrested first to find the master-mind, But in this case strangely the alleged master mind is caught before the foot soldiers are caught. Here again just think unless the plot is known master-mind cannot be caught. If the script is not known the foot soldiers will be caught first and then the mastermind unless a person is caught to be framed as master mind as per script.
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1. Forgot to add another famous christian act of terrorism on a sacred day (and place) for inconvertibles:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The Vatican cave was a Mithraeum</b>: a temple of the Roman God Mithras

    "The cave of the Vatican belonged to Mithra until 376 A.D., when a city prefect suppressed the cult of the rival Savior and <b>seized the shrine in the name of Christ, on the very birthday of the pagan god, December 25.</b>"
    -- Barbara G. Walker (The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->IIRC, I also read somewhere that Saint Nicholas destroyed a Roman temple to Diana on the celebration of her birthday (5 December) and that that's why they celebrate the saint's birthday then. Similar to how they now celebrate non-existent jeebus' fake birthday exactly on the day Rome celebrated Mithras' birthday.


2. Faithful christians always remember to beat up their kids with a wooden spoon. The Babble tells them to.
http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/5146828
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Man who justified hitting son as Christian right cleared</b>
November 14, 2008, 8:03 pm
<b>A man who said he had the right as a Christian to hit his son</b> will not face trial.

Rowan James Flynn, 53, of Christchurch, was due to stand trial on five charges of assaulting his son when he was 11 and one charge of assaulting a female.

Yesterday, Nelson District Court Judge Tony Zohrab discharged Mr Flynn after the Crown offered no evidence, the Nelson Mail reported.

Two other charges of leaving a child under 14 without reasonable supervision were also withdrawn.

<b>The father of four hit his son on the bottom with a wooden spoon after his son was disobedient and clipped his son on the face with the spoon.

He told the paper his actions were justified by the Bible.</b>

Crown prosecutor Janine Bonifant said the Crown had decided not to give any evidence in the case, which was different from saying it did not believe the alleged offences took place.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Man who knows his babble.

More information on this very christian practise at:
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A3.htm#BeatingChildren
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->There's also Bible-sanctioned abuse, where parents are allowed to chastise their children with a "rod". From the Bible (KJV):

  # Proverbs 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."
  # Proverbs 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."
  # Proverbs 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
  # Proverbs 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
  # Proverbs 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."
  # Proverbs 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."
  # Hebrews 12:6-7: "the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son. Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?"<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><i>For Your Own Good</i> by Alice Miller
In which the author traces the roots of physical violence towards children in the western world to the influence of Christianity.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Both the following linked to from previous link:
http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/01/19/do...he-rod.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Boston Globe explains:

    <b>''The Rod," a $5 flexible whipping stick, was described as the ''ideal tool for child training."</b>

    'Spoons are for cooking, belts are for holding up pants, hands are for loving, and rods are for chastening," read the advertisement she saw nearly two years ago for the 22-inch nylon rod. It also cited a biblical passage, which instructs parents not to spare the ''rod of correction."

   Bullock, a Southern Baptist, said he stands by the virtue of The Rod, which, he said, is safer than a belt or paddle. He said he believes his product is in keeping with biblical teachings that rods be used only as a ''last resort" to train children. He opposes its use on babies. He said he sold the device at a rate of ''a few a week" over the last six years or so. Many of his customers returned for more rods, and cited the Scriptures when they made their purchases, he said. ''I'm one of these simple people," Bullock said. ''The Bible is what it is -- I'm not trying to change it. God is right. We have to have faith in that."

Images of the original ads are available online. Advantages include it being "ideal for car or home," it's "an excellent gift idea," and "helps children to receive wisdom." It has a nice "cushioned vinyl grip," thus ensuring that it won't go flying out of your hands while whipping the tiny miscreants. It's "durable for years of use," because we know your burgeoning brood needs all of the correction it can get — and if the Rod's extensive use leads to it breaking in the first year, they'll replace it for free! Hows that for customer service?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
http://www.tldm.org/news6/child.discipline.htm - from faithfully christian site "These Last Days Ministries":
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Directives from Heaven...</b>  http://www.tldm.org/directives/directives.htm
    D16 - Role of Parents PDF Logo PDF
    D17 - Fall of Education PDF Logo PDF
    D166 – Drugs  PDF Logo PDF
    D167 - The Family - Part 1 PDF Logo PDF
    D168 - The Family - Part 2 PDF Logo PDF
<b>    D235 - Disciplining children   PDF LogoPDF</b>

Articles...
   <b> Dr. Laura advises parents to use "swift and terrible" correction for defiant children</b>
    http://www.tldm.org/news7/DrLaura2.htm

Links...
   <b> Spanking can be a valuable disciplinary tool, Focus on the Family</b>
    http://www.focusonyourchild.com/hottopics/a0001043.cfm

    Spare the Rod? New Research Challenges Spanking Critics
    http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/spare_the_rod.htm

    And the children will rule over them, Selwyn Duke, December 15, 2004
    http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/duke/041215<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sick.
Ideology of utter terrorism.
It teaches its sheep to:
- butcher animals.
- beat up children.
- attack women (e.g. their own 'nuns', including those regularly murdered by priestly rapists in Kerala).
- murder or torture old people (e.g. Swami Lakshmanananda Saraswati and Kanchi Shankaracharya, respectively).
- murder men (e.g. Julian).
- genocide entire populations (e.g. Americas' indigenous and true citizens, the native Americans).
- destroy civilisations (e.g. Greco-Roman civilisation).

This is all there is to christianism=cretinism. This is all the christian 'culture' there is. Christians call it 'civilisation'. Others know it by its real name: parasitic terrorism.
Husky, is beating/punishing children for sake of discipline, in itself a "wrong" or "bad" thing to do?
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Nov 14 2008, 06:20 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Nov 14 2008, 06:20 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Husky, is beating/punishing children for sake of discipline, in itself a "wrong" or "bad" thing to do?
[right][snapback]90131[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->There's no point in asking me questions that concern ethics. I'm not ethical.

All I know is:
1) It wouldn't <i>ever</i> work on me. It would leave me only with thoughts of revenge and I will do everything opposite of what's asked of me, just to <i>spite</i> anyone who tried such tactics on me.
2) I've seen how it breeds fear in children. And causes trauma.
One kid in Indian kindergarten urinated out of fear of getting beaten up by the christoterrorist convent penguins (nuns) for something very minor and then they beat him up for <i>that</i> (poor thing suffered a seizure on account of their blows and his anxiety; that was when the nuns got scared and stopped). I should have taken the sadistic torturers' rulers and broken it over the penguins' knuckles. That's what I <i>should</i> have done, and what one part of me wanted to do back then. But my age meant I was not of any challenging size, which made me shamefully cowardly. Even now, so many years on, I have occasional nights when I am plagued by nightmares revisiting the numerous occasions when I didn't stand up for my kindergarten classmates when they were beaten up.

Always remember: children NEVER forget, even if it is only witnessing other kids getting beaten.

I'm not non-violent: I'm for taking on villains of >= one's own size. But it is <i>cowardly in the extreme</i> to beat animals or children. BTW, in my view, slapping someone (in a way that doesn't hurt, but that makes them take notice and go "oh, why did they suddenly do something so unexpected") is not beating. Beating is when it inflicts pain. But children are little, adults cannot estimate what will and will not hurt them.

It was noted how Native Americans didn't beat their kids but raised them really well. Proves there's another way. If parents have to resort to hitting children for bad behaviour, it says more about the 'parents' bad parenting skills than anything about the kids; like how the saying goes that 'there's never a bad dog, only bad owners'.
Intimidation tactics do not teach discipline (what's that?), they only impart fear: children learn nothing more than to fear the violent person, like an animal will learn nothing more than to fear a violent owner. What knowledge can be imparted through blows? What sort of positive behaviour can be instilled by it (unless fear, anger and resentment are the kind of effect one <i>wants</i> to induce)?
I don't know anything about parenting, though.


<b>ADDED:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->punishing children<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is a different matter. Rewarding good behaviour and punishing bad behaviour in kids is similar to teaching pets (if anyone is offended: oh come on, humans are animals). But one doesn't hit pets.
Punishment does not equate to beating. For instance, parents can withhold their attention from kids to show their displeasure, until the child apologises for pulling its sibling's hair or throwing a tantrum or whatever. Withholding attention drives children wild, because all children crave affectionate attention. So once they return remorsefully, parents can hug them to show there's no hard feelings and to reinforce positive behaviour (that is, penitence after bad conduct is rewarded with a hug).

Then on TV I've seen professional people counsel parents who are at their wits end to try the following: to dismiss kids to their room when these are in a cloudy mood until their tantrum is over. Every time they come out of their room before they calm down, parents were taught to take them back without responding to them and without letting on that their freaking out is stressing the parent(s) out. Maybe this may also work.
Here is what one ancient tradition says.

lAlanAd bahavo doShAs tADanAd bahavo guNAH
atash ChAtrashcha putrashcha tADayet natu lAlayet ||

{ Many a drawbacks are there in affection, and many a good qualities in beating.
(It is advisable), therefore, that one should also beat one's sons and students, and never treat with (too much) affection. }

lAlayet pa~ncha-varShANi dasha-varShANi tADayet
prApte tu Shodashe-varShe putre mitravat Acharet ||

{ fondle a son till he is five, and beat him for next ten years
and once he reaches sixteen, treat him as your best friend }

(chANakya-nIti-darpaNam, 2)

a time tested medicine...
<b>Saint Exportable</b>

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><i>Sixty-two years after her death, an unknown village girl has suddenly become
the center of the world's attention. Was it just a political move on the
part of the Vatican to satisfy the Syrian Malabar Church? Or was it also
aimed to stem the tide of the world wide dramatic decline in the numbers of
nuns?</i>

Sanal Edamaruku


Even in her wildest dreams, Annakutty from Bharananganam village near
Kottayam in Kerala may not have imagined that one fine day more than hundred
thousand people would throng her tiny village to honour her. Sixty-two years
after her death, this unknown village girl has suddenly become the center of
the world's attention – at least of the Roman Catholic part of it.

All throughout her short and eventless life Annakutty, who later became
Sister Alphonsa, looked a picture of misery. After disabling herself at the
age of 13 to escape forced marriage, she suffered from extreme weakness and
various severe illnesses <b>as well as from the cruelty of the sisters of the
Franciscan Clarist convent in which she silently vegetated till her death at
the age of 36</b>. There were only 12 participants at her funeral, most of them
ex-officio. This shows that she was not very popular then.

Four decades later, John-Paul II, the most prolific saint-maker among all
the popes, travelled to Kottayam and beatified her. When he died, leaving
behind a stunning 482 new entrants in the annals of sainthood, she was among
the 'blessed ones" in the pipeline. <b>There were many of them, most
prominently Mother Teresa, believed to be on the "fast track". But
Annakutty, meantime Blessed Alphonsa, who had no spectacular deed whatsoever
to her credit, overtook the heavy weight from Calcutta. What prompted the
Vatican to elevate this unlikely candidate to the rank of a saint?</b>

The poor girl's canonization may look like poetic justice -- however, she
got in with bad company.<b> It is a dubious honour to be lined up with the
likes of Alojzije Stepinac, archbishop of Zagreb and key collaborator of
Ante Pavelic's fascist Ustasha regime that massacred during the second world
war hundreds of thousands of humans who happened not to be Catholic (he was
beatified in 1998)</b>. Of course, not all in this motley crowd are sinister
figures of this calibre. <b>There are also some rather harmless psychopaths and
small time tricksters among them. Take for example the Italian Saint Pio of
Pietrelcina, revered for bearing what he claimed to be Jesus' bleeding
wounds - but what stands exposed by documented testimony of his pharmacist
(till recently neatly tucked away in the Vatican archives) to be nothing but
self-inflicted needle work</b>. Indeed, Blessed Alphonsa, the blank slate,
stands out as one of the purest and least tainted members of the
controversial club. But what brought her in? A miracle?

Her official "ticket" to canonization was the alleged healing of a boy's
club-foot in 1999. But there is a history to this story. Shortly after her
silent demise in 1946 spread a rumour that Sister Alphonsa, who had once
crippled her own feet in a pit of burning chaff, had posthumously healed a
child's deformed foot upon prayer at her tomb. Over the years, she
established her presence in the popular rubric of "favour received"
advertisements in the Christian press of Kottayam for allegedly curing
hundreds of troubled little feet. That was when the Church authorities
discovered her. The deposits at her modest tomb grew so impressively that
the Vatican appointed a special vicar in 1952 to send them to Rome. <b>It is
said that he had already sent some 14 million dollars, when Pope John-Paul
decided to beatify her, multiplying the revenue. But there is far more to
Alphonsa's canonization than her handsome "dowry".</b>

<b>Alphonsa belonged to the rich and powerful Syrian Malabar Church that rules
Kottayam district.</b> This Eastern Catholic denomination is part of the Vatican
empire since Vasco da Gama's time, but has kept its traditions intact and
never completely succumbed to the "latinization". Till 1968, their clergy
held mass in Syrian language, and till today, they can't agree with the
Vatican on the question whether the clergy should face the people or the
altar during mass.

They own institutions, real estate and big plantations and have enormous
economic and political clout as compared to the far bigger Latin string of
Catholicism that evolved out of the poor costal fisher communities,
converted in 16th century by the Portuguese.<b> Alphonsa's canonization is a
political move to satisfy the Syrian Malabar Church and to strengthen its
ties with the Vatican</b>. To serve this purpose, she has been styled as a
symbol of harmonisation. Official church reports speak about the "great
oriental and western traditions, Roman and Malabar, which Sr. Alphonsa lived
and harmonised in her saintly life". It is obvious that the unity of these
two wings of Catholicism is of immense importance now.

<b>Kottayam district has by far the highest Christian population in the country
(46%) and is often called the Vatican of India</b>. It is the center of
recruitment of Catholic nuns and priests. Most of the nuns belong to the
poorer section of the rich Syrian Malabar community. They cannot think of
raising the fabulous sums that the well-off families give their daughters as
dowry. If they cannot afford the other established option either -- to pay
for their education as professional nurses -- they are left with no socially
accepted solution other than forcing the young girls – too young to decide
for themselves – in convents.

<b>Nuns from Kottayam make up 95% of the "soldiers of proselytism" who keep
Catholic institutions like schools and hospitals, all over India, running</b>.

<b>In fact, Catholic nuns (and priests) from Kottayam are exported to Europe
and USA to fill the gap that the dramatic fall in the numbers of western
recruits has torn in the fabric of the Roman Catholic Church</b>. In February
2008, the Vatican's official mouthpiece, L'Osservatore Romano, rang the
alarm bells. According to new statistics, the decline of the number of nuns
worldwide was accelerating as never before. During the pontificate of the
late Pope John-Paul II, it had already fallen by one fourth, then by another
ten percent. Now it had come down to just 750,000. (Consecrated men
worldwide were even down to 192,000 - including monks, priests and vicars).

With nearly no new recruits who could replace those who die, or decide to
abandon their vows, Catholic nuns seem to be moving towards extinction. The
average age of nuns in USA is 70 years. And only five percent of them teach
in Catholic schools, so that the main source of recruitment is out of reach.
<b>In this situation, the Vatican's only hope is India, which means Kottayam. </b>

With the canonization of India's first female saint, <b>Pope Benedict hopes to
apply the emergency brake to stem the tide of the world wide dramatic
decline in the numbers of nuns.</b>

Alphonsa is being presented as a role model to young girls. During the
celebrations, thousands of little school girls are dressing up as nuns and
play Alphonsa. She has become the patron saint of many schools. Her life is
dramatized in books and on CDs, in documentary films plays and a weekly TV
serial. What is highlighted is always Alphonsa, the teacher, the darling of
all little children, though she was all throughout her convent life so
bedridden that her attempt to work as a teacher was limited to less than one
year. The glorification focuses on her special character that makes her a
suitable new idol for young nuns: an example in humility, obedience and
forbearance, desiring to be unknown and hidden and to suffer all pain and
ill-treatment that was in store for her without any complaint. "Humiliate me
until I am almost nothing; until I become a spark in the fire of the love
burning in Thy Divine Heart," is one of the most talked about words
attributed to Saint Alphonsa. <b>If the Vatican's plan works out, the
psychopathy of a helpless, tortured individual could become epidemic.</b>


<i>Sanal Edamaruku is the president of Rationalist International and Indian
Rationalist Association</i>
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

^ K.Ram's important post above.


<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Nov 14 2008, 10:42 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Nov 14 2008, 10:42 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Here is what one ancient tradition says.
[...]
a time tested medicine...
[right][snapback]90139[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Ah, the first serious - and profound - disagreement between us. Let's file irreconcilable differences.

It's better to make one's own judgement calls and take personal responsibility for one's actions and views, than relying on old texts for support, however ancient and venerable and sensible (in other matters) their writers may be - such as Kautilya quoted in your post.

People are in charge only of their own actions, not that of others; and their own (almost) completely. In any case, I would never relinquish my own judgement for another's views.

And I see that Buddha agreed with me:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Buddha: Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it - even if I have said it - unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->And some unnamed ancient Hindu sages besides:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Yuktiyuktamupa'deyam' vacanam' ba'laka'dapi anyam'trn'amiva tyajyamapyuktam' padmajanmana'.
"Even if a young boy says something logical it should be accepted;
and even if the lotus-born Brahma' (the creator of the universe in Hinduism) says something illogical,
it should be rejected like a straw."
-- Advice of ancient Indian sages

Kevalam' sha'strama'shritya'm' na karttavyovinirn'ayah yuktihiina'
vica'retu dharmaha'ni praja'yate.
"It is undesirable to accept anything just because it is written in the scriptures;
for if the illogical sayings therein be accepted and acted upon, it results in the loss of dharma."
-- Advice of ancient Indian sages<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Like I just did, one can find textual support for all kinds of personal views, but they are no replacement for drawing one's own conclusions (perhaps by additionally considering others' views based on their experiences, particularly family's), learning one's own lessons and taking responsibility for one's own actions.
Husky, reason should always supercedede dogma, where is doubt about that?

You had quoted from the book of christianism to show how child-beating is prescribed there, and which to you apparently is a horrible thing in itself, and those christians consider it their religious duty, which is also a terribly bad thing. I was trying to show you, that at least child-beating can be found very much in our traditions too, and in itself is not a bad thing. Calling it "domestic violence" is a modern western notion, and is far from the traditional Indian ways of teaching a child. As far as using mild spanking for educating/disciplining a child (not too young, not too old) is concerned, I think India has found it useful for a long time, and I don't see any problem with it. Of course extremes are bad in anything.

By the way, when I was studying in class 3rd and 4th, we used to have this teacher in my village school, Pandit Bramhanand Sharma his name, and he used to teach us Maths, Sanskrit, and some more subjects as the need be.. and as the nature of these subjects was, at least back then, it demanded a lot of things to be memorized. Dozens of tables in maths as well as countless dhAtu-rUpa tables in Skt (which used to sound like endless), and all that. But the fear of the "chhadee" (cane) of Panditji was such, that whatever we remembered those days has stayed till date, while many other things have evapoated. That cane was not merely for showing, it used to be practiced too, even though mildly. I am sure he would be put in jail had he been in enlightened countries! And today, I don't remember that time as a bitter period.

Coming to extending this child-beating to fear-psychosis in christianism, as proposed in one article on page you linked to. Those people who nurture this notion so popular these days, that "normative" and all that is only limited to mlechCha religions, have not read our purANa-s. Why is there a very well formed concept of pApa and resulting sojourn in naraka-lokas, if not to stop humans from uninhabitedly doing what one just "likes"? Although the concept of naraka is different from "eternal hell", and qualifications of visiting naraka and hell (as well as swarga and heaven) are also different, but the primary drivers behind the concepts remain: fear and allurement -- for restricting ordinary people from doing "bad" things and encouraging to do "good" things. Main difference is, here emphasis is on "doing", not "believing" like in those religions.

Fear is an essencial part of growing up in dharma too. Affecion does ot last without a fear of reprimand. 'bhaya vinu hoya na preeti", says tulasIdAsa.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->reason should always supercedede dogma, where is doubt about that?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Only in Natural Traditions. Not in christianism, where Dogma/Faith is the fundamental requirement. "Don't doubt gawd's word... or Eternal Hell Forevaaahhhh."

Bodhi, I didn't call it "domestic violence". I think I called it "cowardly in the extreme" to beat kids and animals. I still consider it that.
And I don't care in the least what the 'enlightened' west thinks (they have never been consistent except in one thing: whatever view they hold at the moment is what they will try to enforce on the world). I was expressing my opinion, based on my experiences.

The way I learnt
- to do well at school was to prove to my parents that I could do just/almost as well as my sister, if I tried hard. I wasn't flattered by how they told me (good-naturedly) that they didn't expect the same results from me and that they'd be pleased with my achievements no matter what those were as long as I worked at it. So I set out to prove them wrong in having such low expectations. <i>I</i> had standards, after all. (I think they thought I was struggling, maybe? I was just difficult.)
- good behaviour: my parents couldn't control my hysterics. Not their fault - I was a new, unexpected and terrifying experience to them. My sister was all goody-twoshoes and after striking gold the first time, they found that the second one was an atom bomb. They didn't know what to do, how to control me. I could manipulate them very well by the time I was 2 and was ruling the roost when I was 4. <i>But</i>, and this is very curious, neither maternal nor paternal grandparents could be fooled by me. They always saw right through my tantrums with my mum/dad/sister. I always calmed down in front of my maternal grandparents and sat with them quietly so that my parents couldn't recognise me as the same child. I'd play with them very contentedly, and so they'd take me off the hands of my mum and dad who'd be relieved to stop hearing me scream and run into walls when I didn't get my way. I was happier sitting in the kitchen watching my grandmother grate the coconut or with my grandfather watching him read the newspaper or nap, than I was playing with toys.
With my paternal grandparents I did my best to make sure they only saw my very best side. Actually, it wasn't so hard around them, or rather, it came naturally. I remember thinking how my grandparents were <i>worth</i> pleasing, whereas I found my parents' distress comical. I kept thinking how if my mum and dad didn't know how to deal with me, I wasn't going to help/teach them <!--emo&:devil--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devilsmiley.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='devilsmiley.gif' /><!--endemo-->

I don't know what it was about my grandparents or all Hindu grandparents of that generation. Some incomprehensible magic about their influence <!--emo&Smile--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->By the way, when I was studying in class 3rd and 4th [...] And today, I don't remember that time as a bitter period.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're very forbearing.
But even here there's a difference: the nuns at the convent beat kids up if we spoke in Tamizh rather than the tyrant nuns' Inglish. They beat kids up for forgetting a pencil. They beat kids up for being awake during the compulsory afternoon nap. They beat kids up for wearing Hindu symbols. And for many other of the most trivial reasons. In short, they beat us up for <i>any</i> reasons they could find, both psecular and anti-Hindu. They absolutely hated children. And hated Hindu Tamizh-speaking children in particular.
I learnt nothing from them but a deep hatred of learning the Roman alphabet and of learning English, the very things they were 'trying to teach' us (aka telling us to learn by ourselves). I would learn those things only later, *after* repeating kindergarten all over again in NL: Roman alphabet in the first year of primary, beginnings of rudimentary English in high school.
At least your teacher taught you things, though he also threatened you with the cane. The nuns just terrorised and hit kids and couldn't teach to save their petty meaningless lives.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Coming to extending this child-beating to fear-psychosis in christianism, as proposed in one article on page you linked to. Those people who nurture this notion so popular these days, that "normative" and all that is only limited to mlechCha religions, have not read our purANa-s.
Why is there a very well formed concept of pApa and resulting sojourn in naraka-lokas, if not to stop humans from uninhabitedly doing what one just "likes"?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not the same thing. The concept of some kind of underworld is there in all natural traditions, exactly for the same reasons they are there in Hindu Dharma: dissuading bad behaviour. You have the idea of the underworld in Mahayana Buddhism (where it is also temporary), and Tantalus or Tartalus or something in Hellenismos (been a while since my sister told me about this one) where one is tantalised with water and food being within one's reach but moving further off when one reaches for it and there's also Hades' Realm. Then there are similarly dark regions in the Shinto religion for those who commit dark deeds.

There's <i>no</i> resemblance to the concept of christoislamic hell. Hell is where the good people go: those who refuse to believe in christoislamiterrorism, people who doubt the blabla/koran, people who say No Thanks to the imperative to jihad, people who don't follow commandment #1 in that they won't terrorise others for having different Gods.
It's <i>Eternal</i> torture in hell for offending the petty non-existent jeebusjehovallah by not believing in him or not accepting him and his lame ideology.

As a consequence, christoislamism consigns everyone from Julian to Thomas Paine, and all the Natural Traditionalists <i>of all time</i> to hell. Forever. <i>But not</i> the various terrorist popes/priestly paedophiles, not various rapist genocidal maniac crusaders and conquistadors, not similarly terrorist jihadis. They all go to their heaven/pardees. Because non-existent jeebusjehovallah is pleased with their tyranny.

The idea of a temporary bad place for finite cruel deeds is not obnoxious to me nor does it sound illogical (whether I believe in this or not does not matter). Just as a temporary stay in Swargam is there for finite good deeds committed by mortals, to encourage inactive/careless characters to try harder to do something useful with their lives. Likewise, Buddhists in Mahayana collect "merit points" to move up in their Bauddha spiritual afterlives (as per a Mandarin-language Taiwanese 'religious' program I watched).

But this concept is entirely topsy-turvy in christoislamism, where what is good is marked to be suppressed, rooted out and destroyed. And what is evil, cruel and low is encouraged and 'rewarded' by non-torment in the non-existent jeebusjehovallah's fatally boring heaven.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->You had quoted from the book of christianism to show how child-beating is prescribed there, and which to you apparently is a horrible thing in itself, and those christians consider it their religious duty, which is also a terribly bad thing. I was trying to show you, that at least child-beating can be found very much in our traditions too, and in itself is not a bad thing.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Born-again buffoons in the US were shown here on "20/20" (I think it was) - a current events show - where the episode was about how the rod was used in a lot of faithful christian homes. In some cases, the skin off the back of some kids (where they had been struck repeatedly) was off. And scary-looking bruises.
Some adults showed the scars on their back: these looked like they would have been really bad injuries back when they'd been inflicted. Some of the adults interviewed spoke of how their life in childhood consisted only of fear - their parents would take it out on them regularly for anything, as everything was construed as rebellion against jeebus.

In the animal (mammal) world, parents - and depending on the species, the community/pack too - would do everything to protect the litter. That's because the adults have all invested in the next generation which is very vulnerable: the world's a dangerous place with predators and dangerous pitfalls and scarcity of resources (and skills are required to get food, which the young don't yet have). Likewise, human offspring also need protection, to grow well. The rest of the world generally doesn't care. But the children need to feel safe <i>at home</i>. If they have to fear their own parents, then the world becomes a very very stressful, anxious, traumatising and unsafe place for them. They constantly feel like the hunted, with all the round-the-clock stress and subsequent consequences. Unlike young in the animal world, human young don't always just die from neglect or abuse. Sometimes they survive but with something inside them having gone wrong. They were raised wrong, and their brain got programmed with the wrong skills or with no useful skills, and in many cases they don't quite make it as well-rounded adults.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->we used to have this teacher in my village school<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->So different from my Grandfather. I've seen him teach other children. He's very patient. He was never harsh even in words.
Once he tried to correct my loveletter to him - I wrote it in English while he was nearby and took it to him to show it to him in person - where I had beautifully mispelled the word 'photos' (I wrote it the Dutch way). I never write it wrong now.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Fear is an essencial part of growing up in dharma too. Affecion does ot last without a fear of reprimand. 'bhaya vinu hoya na preeti", says tulasIdAsa.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I cannot agree. I hate anything I fear. (Unless I was mistaken in fearing it - for example, a dog that meant no harm.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Nov 15 2008, 10:21 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Nov 15 2008, 10:21 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Fear is an essencial part of growing up in dharma too. Affecion does ot last without a fear of reprimand. 'bhaya vinu hoya na preeti", says tulasIdAsa.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I cannot agree. I hate anything I fear. (Unless I was mistaken in fearing it - for example, a dog that meant no harm.)
[right][snapback]90167[/snapback][/right]
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Husky,

Well, fear is a good driver of dharma too. It is one of the bhAva-s in bhakti through which too iShTa can be realized. In upAsanA mArga, there is method called bhrAmarI-sAdhanA, where devotee continuously lives in perpetual fear of one's iShTa, evetually becoming one with iShTa himself. Well, more explicit things can be said on basis of shAstra-s as well as practical tradition, but I guess that will not be very prude for forum based discussion. E-mail me if Interested to pursue...

<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Nov 15 2008, 10:21 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Nov 15 2008, 10:21 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The way I learnt
[right][snapback]90167[/snapback][/right]
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Now we know! <!--emo&Tongue--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&Tongue--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo-->
See K.Ram's very important post #212


<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Nov 15 2008, 01:15 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Nov 15 2008, 01:15 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, fear is a good driver of dharma too.  It is one of the bhAva-s in bhakti through which too iShTa can be realized.  In upAsanA mArga, there is <b>method called bhrAmarI-sAdhanA, where devotee</b> continuously lives in perpetual fear of one's iShTa, evetually becoming one with iShTa himself.  Well, more explicit things can be said on basis of shAstra-s as well as practical tradition,[right][snapback]90167[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->In your explanation it comes across as a willing choice on the bhakta's part to follow this method. I accept that there <i>may</i> be as many means to reach Bhagavan as there are Natural Traditionalists. Whatever individuals choose to do in their personal lives and which concerns only themselves - whether or not I agree with it - is not my business. However, imposing the 'fear of gawd' on another person, as christianists do on their own sheep, <i>is</i> wrong.

<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Nov 15 2008, 01:15 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Nov 15 2008, 01:15 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Nov 15 2008, 10:21 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Husky @ Nov 15 2008, 10:21 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The way I learnt[right][snapback]90167[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Now we know! <!--emo&Tongue--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&Tongue--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[right][snapback]90180[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Don't you even <i>think</i> of ever using the info against me, Bodhi <!--emo&Big Grin--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> I wrote that paragraph - in spite of it being rather compromising to my person - since there are people here with kids. It was the intention that if they recognised the same pattern of behaviour in any of their kids, they'll consider taking their children to grandparents to enjoy the latter's softening influence.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:red'>Fight in college hostel over beef on menu</span>
15 Nov 2008, 0211 hrs IST, TNN

CHENNAI: A dispute over the type of meat served in a hostel sparked a clash among students of an engineering college under Hindustan University in Padur, about 35 km from Chennai, on Thursday night. Three students were injured. While two students suffered minor injuries, the condition of the third is serious.

The clash occurred around 10.30 pm at one of the university's six hostels that accommodates first-year male students. Almost half of the 4,250 university's students are from other states. There are also 100-odd foreign students.

<b>Stating that beef was served for dinner instead of chicken, students from northern states roughed up the hostel warden. A few from Tamil Nadu sided with him and a clash ensued between the two groups.</b> In the end, three local students, Murugan, Arumugam and Deva, were injured. While the first two had stitches on the head, Deva is in the ICU of a hospital.

<b>University authorities later informed the police who took 18 students, most of them from other states, into custody.</b> They were produced before a Chengalpet court on Friday.

Thirty policemen were deployed on the campus to prevent further violence. <b>"Severe action will be taken against students involved in violence," V Balasubramanian, deputy superintendent of police</b>, Mamallapuram, said.

The university has now declared an indefinite holiday for 1,200 first-year students of all branches and asked hostellers to vacate the premises. When questioned, they however denied any clash took place over food. A difference of opinion, they claimed, had led to a minor dispute that was later settled. "We declared an indefinite holiday in view of the fact that semester exams are likely to start in the middle of December," K Sarukesi, vice-chancellor, Hindustan University, said. Asked whether they had asked police to let off arrested students with a warning, he said: "Disciplinary action will be taken against erring students."

Students from the north insisted the crisis had reached a flashpoint owing to a lack of good facilities. "The fact is hostel authorities serve beef instead of other types of meat. We paid Rs 59,500 as annual fee as we were assured good accommodation and quality food. But the food is worse than that at roadside eateries," said a first-year student.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/article...8,prtpage-1.cms<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Radha Rajan comments:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Now it is TN Beefeaters' turn to attack North Indians in Tamil Nadu's Capital?

The Hindusthan College of Engineering, Chennai, has always attracted more students from outside the State than within, particularly since it offers courses most engineering colleges in India do not. "North Indians" pay more and complain less too – so far. But serving up beef for or as chicken to these Biharis and Jharkhandis is provocation of the type that started off the Indian War of Independence.

Note that the College Registrar is John Sahawyum Chellaiah, and the Joint MD of "the Group" is Ashok Verghese. Which may explain the provocation.

And we are informed that the Christians are behind the recent Law College riots in TN too.

And Maoists are also an Affiliate of Militant Christianity and not Communism as per what was claimed after Khandamal.

What the Government should do is to garrotte these provocateurs and the armed gangs of students they maintain on these campuses regardless of communal or Party Affiliations.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Vatican owes us an apology</b>

Kanchan Gupta

His Majesty the king has ordered that there shall be no Brahmins in his land and that they should be banished.”
“In the name of his Majesty I order that no Hindu can or shall perform marriages…”
“The marriages of the supplicants are superstitious acts or functions which include Hindu rites and ceremonies as well as cult, adoration and prayers of Hindu temples…”
“I order that no Hindu temples be erected in any of the territories of my king… and that Hindu temples which already have been erected be not repaired…'

Anybody familiar with the brutalisation of Hindu customs and practices, indeed Hindu faith and belief, could mistakenly believe these extracts have been taken from royal decrees issued during Muslim rule. The harshness with which suppression is prescribed in these decrees, the callous disregard that is advocated for the other’s sentiment, the cruelty that is so palpable in both thought and action, suggest that these firman could have been issued by one of the “shadows of god” who ruled this land, laying to waste Hindu lives and temples.

But these are not extracts from firman issued by the Mughal court of, say, Aurangzeb. They have been taken from firmans issued by the Portuguese who ruled Goa and recognised no religion other than Christianity as the legitimate means of communion with god. It was no secular rule that they imposed, but a ruthless system of pillage disguised as trade and a cruel administration for whom Hindus were nothing more than “supplicants” to be crushed into submission or exiled into oblivion.

The horrors inflicted on Galileo Galilei by the Inquisition — the Vatican has now admitted that the Church was wrong and Galileo was right — are well known. Not that well-known, and tragically so, are the horrors inflicted by the Goa Inquisition. Every child reads about Galileo’s trial and how it is symbolic of the triumph of science over faith. But there is no reference — indeed, all reference is scrupulously avoided — to the brutal attempts of the Church to stamp out Hinduism in the territories controlled by the Portuguese in India.

And this silence is not because there exists no evidence: There exist, in full text, orders issued by the Portuguese Viceroy and the Governor. There exist, in written records and travelogues, penned not by the persecuted but by the persecutors, full details of the horrors perpetrated in the name of Christ. Hindus who dared oppose the persecution were punished, swiftly and mercilessly. Those who were fortunate, got away with being banished. The less fortunate had their property seized and auctioned — the money was used, in large measures, for furthering proselytisation. The least fortunate were forced to serve as slave labour on the galleys that transported loot from Indian shores to Portuguese coffers.

Viceroy D Constantine de Braganca issued an order on April 2, 1560, instructing that Brahmins should be thrown out of Goa and other areas under Portuguese control. They had a month's time to sell their property — it is obvious who gained from such distress sale. Those found violating the viceregal order, it was declared, would have their properties seized. Another order was issued, this time by Governor Antonio Morez Barreto, on February 7, 1575, decreeing that the estates of Brahmins whose "presence was prejudicial to Christianity" would be confiscated and used for "providing clothes to the New Christians".

The attitude of the Portuguese administrators in India and the Church hardened over the years, to a point where each fiat, each decree, each order, each letter, became an instrument of religious persecution. The Third Concilio Provincial — a gathering of bishops and other clerics — met in 1585 to review, among other things, the progress of converting the “heathens” to the “only faith”. The Concilio adopted a resolution which said, ‘His Majesty the king has on occasion ordered the Viceroys and Governors of India that there should be no Brahmins in his lands, and that they should be banished therefrom together with the physicians and other infidels who are prejudicial to Christianity, after taking the opinion of the Archbishop and other religious persons who have experience in the matter. As the orders of His Majesty in this regard have not been executed, great impediments in the way of conversion and the community of New Christians have followed and continue to follow.”

One can quote from many other orders, resolutions and instructions that resulted in the hideous Vatican-backed Goa Inquisition. The details are not unknown to most of us; they are definitely well known to the Vatican. The reason I have raised the issue of the Goa Inquisition is two-fold. First, Pope Benedict XVI should bear in mind the horrors inflicted on Hindus in the name of Christianity before he berates them for being intolerant towards Christians. Second, the Vatican owes an apology for the crimes committed during the Goa Inquisition; it must apologise and repent for its misdeeds against Hindus and gross attempts to stamp out Hinduism. Not to do so would amount to continued endorsement of the crimes and the unfair practices of missionaries.

Ten years ago, the Vatican issued a 14-page document, ‘apologising’ and ‘repenting’ for not doing enough to save Europe’s Jews from the Holocaust. While it is common knowledge that Pope Pius XII did not feel particularly appalled by Hitler’s ‘final solution’, the Vatican claimed in its 1998 document that he was unaware of the concentration camps, the mass slaughter, the gas chambers and the furnaces. The document, understandably, failed to impress Jews who have made it clear that Pope Benedict XVI is not welcome to visit Israel unless he offers an unqualified apology and makes public documents of that period which are now stored in the Vatican’s archives. The Vatican may have eliminated the phrase “perfidious Jews” from its liturgy and Pope Paul II may have made it fashionable for the Pontiff to refer to Jews as “older brothers”, these are seen as no more than meaningless, insincere gestures.

The purpose of securing an apology for the Goa Inquisition is not to belittle the Vatican, but to drive home the point that it cannot seek to occupy the moral high ground till such time it has apologised and atoned for the sins committed against Hindus. If the Vatican can say sorry to others, there is no reason why it cannot say sorry to Hindus. Their faith is no less than those of the Book.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/134662/Vatican...an-apology.html
Can anyone give me the official link on "money from Hindu temples being routed to muslim orgs etc"? I need to send it to someone. Many thanks..


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