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Christian Subversion And Missionary Activities - 5
#41

The least effective country for Xtian missionaries is Japan. India's industrialization will greatly diminish the effectiveness of Xtian's. Even today Xtian missionaries don't waste their time with better off people. So, by definition it's a false inducement to convert to a dangerous cult.

Xtian missionaries know that the next 20-30 years are critical to convert in India. After that, India will become like Japan, conversion efforts will be ineffective.

The Xtian efforts are done not to convert all of India, they would never want that. They like to create "dissidents" in all non-western countries. They want to divide India culturally, and then arm the converts (Where do you think so called Maoists are getting money for arms?). Note, that the Maoists in Orrisa said sympathetic statements towards Xtian's, if they are indeed atheist communists why would they support a religious cult like Christianity?
This will result in a civil war in India, and will divide the country into smaller countries. Ever since 1947, the west has been very angry and resentful that a giant Non-Western nation like India exists.



<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+Sep 20 2008, 08:13 PM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Sep 20 2008, 08:13 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->


Officially it is $2billion a year
Unofficially it is $75 billion a year

The global evangelical budget is $200 billion a year per Arun Shourie
assume at least 25% is sent to India

The growth in the Indian economy will neutralise this to a large extent
and if the rupee rises wrt western currencies
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#42
<b>Arkansas compound raided in child porn case </b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->FOUKE, Ark. - Federal authorities conducting a child-porn investigation raided the headquarters Saturday of a ministry run by a convicted tax evader once labeled by prosecutors as a polygamist who preys on girls and women.

....

About 100 officers raided the 15-acre compound housing the ministry, which the Southern Poverty Law Center describes as a cult that opposes homosexuality, Catholicism and the government.

The ministry's Web site says it is "dedicated to spreading the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the winning of souls worldwide."
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#43
<!--QuoteBegin-agnivayu+Sep 20 2008, 11:38 AM-->QUOTE(agnivayu @ Sep 20 2008, 11:38 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The least effective country for Xtian missionaries is Japan.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That may be, but Japanese have completely lost touch with their own culture. On the outside, they are fully westernized. Their weddings for example, are mostly done Xtian style. That is just as worse as xtian mischief. Goraization. Breakup of traditional culture, which will culminate in xtian harvest.
#44
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->That may be, but Japanese have completely lost touch with their own culture. On the outside, they are fully westernized. Their weddings for example, are mostly done Xtian style. That is just as worse as xtian mischief. Goraization. Breakup of traditional culture, which will culminate in xtian harvest. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the West, North East Asians (Chinese, Japanaese, Koreans) have a very high one way traffic of their women marrying whites (higher than any other non white group). This is somewhat less among the Vietnamese, Cambodians etc.
#45
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>S Korea prez apologises to Buddhists</b>
9 Sep 2008

SEOUL: South Korea President Lee Myung-Bak, a devout Christian, has apologised to the nation's Buddhists following nationwide protests against alleged religious bias by his administration.

Lee was speaking at a cabinet meeting which approved regulations banning religious discrimination by public servants.

"It is deeply regrettable that some government officials offended the Buddhist community, even if they did not mean to, with such words and behaviour as could cause misunderstanding about a religious bias," he said.

Leaders of the country's 10 million Buddhists outnumbered by 13.7 million Christians had threatened more mass protests unless Lee apologised.

The largest Buddhist order, the Jogye, said his remarks represented "a more sincere attitude" by the government. But it repeated demands for the sacking of the national police chief over an alleged insult to its head monk, Jigwan.

The Buddhist protests, rare in a country that guarantees freedom of religion, followed months of street rallies against US beef imports which rocked Lee's administration.

Buddhists have been uneasy over what they see as a Christian bias since Lee, a Presbyterian church elder, came to power on February 25.

The Jogye lists 23 cases of alleged favouritism, including the appointments of Protestants to major government posts.

An online map published by two ministries, showing Seoul's churches but not major Buddhist temples, also sparked anger.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
#46
<!--QuoteBegin-"Singha"+-->QUOTE("Singha")<!--QuoteEBegin-->the EJs are waging low footprint, light logistics guerilla warfare with these prayer halls.
India is not deepest africa where building materials, skills or labour to build a proper
church is hard to obtain. their money is spent on paying middlemen, politicians and the
converted probably.

the fat american EJ whose mumbai wifi was hacked was running a prayer hall in a shopping
complex in the suburbs. looked more like typing school or DTP center than a place
of worship. he as the 'pastor' of his flocks and his org has atleast two such halls in BLR
led again by americans. one is located in kamanahalli where my wife goes to office,
the 'penetration' of EJhood seems to be strong there per her reports.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Hindus may have to start similar Prayer hall business and trick them into a business scheme.

The scheme works like this. For every convert who visits the church they get Rs 2000-Rs 5000. So is this is a pyramid MLM scheme which is backed by money. I talked to few who explained to me how this scheme works. He said out of curiosity the poor people in the city go to this prayer hall and have to light a candle. For every Candle they light they get some money.After that they have to wish for certain things - such as a cycle/scooter/education etc which are made during the Christian holidays. Then the 'miracle' happens and the poor family gets those wishes fulfilled. This pyramid scheme has high success rate initially since the target in poor people in poor locality. There is novelty in visiting a prayer hall since money is involved and surprise gifts are showered just like how animal behavior is molded with food and prizes. Indian lower poor class/tribals and the 'untouchables' are the target of this prayer hall and pyramid scheme. The people down the chain make money as they get more families and friends inside the circle and are told that this is sustainable 'business' just by doing simple things. They are manipulated into larger gifts if they start changing their family prayer habits and family stop visiting Hindu temple. Poor people with medical problems are prime target with hospital facilities if they embrace a prayer hall. The scheme is ingenious where Indians with money coming from foreign source is taught to scheme and fool and exploit his fellow Indians.

Now the Amway organization is also organized in a similar manner. In the 90s there was heavy recruitment of the Indians in Amway in US and in India. This was explained to me by an insider. They did organizational behavior study of Indians for marketing and spending habits with social group. This MLM study and behavior pattern is showing up in EJ plans inside India after 5-10 years. Amway and Britt associates are secret EJ outfit to study Indians and map their social habits for a long time.

Now the American EJ outfit have fine tuned their penetration strategy with sophisticated social data from sociology learnt in South Asia programs. They have instant information on behavior pattern on each caste, kinship pattern, lower class grievances and agnostic relationship between various caste and religion. This is just like animal studies in the wild or in the zoo. Indian and Hindus are the target of large scale animal like study on thought process, choice behavior, money based incentive choice study etc.

#47
Cut pasting comment from Nishka on Offstumped "Lay off Mangalore" entry
---------------------------------------------------------


Read about the catholic sabha which was formed to encourage Indian Ctaholics to get into politics. It was formed to protest anti conversion laws of 1979

http://konkanicatholics.blogspot.com/2007/...-mangalore.html

was one of the founders of (Mangalore diocese’s) Catholic Sabha, which has completed some three decades. It was started to protest an anti-conversion bill introduced in parliament in 1979. Later, it became one of the strongest Catholic lay movements. It has provided a platform for many Catholics to enter politics. It has helped many youths to get into civil service, encouraged Catholics to contest panchayat elections and get involved in other social-service activities. We now manage a special school and rehabilitation center for mentally retarded children. Though I am more active in national politics, I have never ignored the Catholic Sabha, my first step in politics.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nishka has also said the when she migrated to India from Pakistan, RSS was the only org that helped her, and she says she will always help RSS.
#48
Question:

Is there a branch of christianism that has made a principle out of not converting people by inducing them through money, fake miracles etc? Or do they all say OK to conversion by any means needed?
#49
"Is there a branch of christianism that has made a principle out of not converting people by inducing them through money, fake miracles etc? Or do they all say OK to conversion by any means needed?"

I am not sure about this but there are a few branches that seem to mind their own business (by this i mean no active "spread the good word" nonsense), but I am NOT sure what their official doctrines in regard to conversion are, these are the quakers, amish, mennonites, and unitarians (lot of xtians would deny this last group as belonging to the xtian camp).

#50
<!--QuoteBegin-Shambhu+Sep 22 2008, 01:18 PM-->QUOTE(Shambhu @ Sep 22 2008, 01:18 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Question:

Is there a branch of christianism that has made a principle out of not converting people by inducing them through money, fake miracles etc? Or do they all say OK to conversion by any means needed?
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I don't think the Amish make any organized effort to convert anybody. Even staying within their community is voluntary. You can leave at 18 years if you want.
#51
Thanks BV and Pandyan.

The immediate aim for hindutva should be to make most of christian denominations go the way of these non-converting groups. That is far far easier said than done, of course <!--emo&Smile--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> ...
#52
Churches asked to install metal detectors, CCTVs

Staff Reporter

Police officials say their capabilities have been stretched

— Photo: K. Murali Kumar

DANGEROUS TIMES: It appears peace needs protection now.

BANGALORE: A beleaguered Bangalore city police, buffeted by accusations of inefficiency by both the Government and Christian organisations, finds itself strapped for security personnel to guard churches and prayer halls.

If the promise of round-the-clock security is to be fulfilled, the Police Department will need a minimum of 6,400 additional policemen, 800 vehicles and 800 wireless gadgets, a senior police official told The Hindu.

Senior police officials admitted that their capabilities are stretched. They have now asked churches to take security steps such as installing CCTV cameras, metal detectors, burglar alarms, etc. They have also suggested to the church authorities to appoint private security guards.

There are around 800 churches that belong to both Protestant and Catholic Christians in Bangalore. Among them, 400 churches, small in size, are in the limits of South East Division of Bangalore city police. A majority of them are located in and around Ejipura, Koramangala, Vivek Nagar and Austin Town.

An officer of the Bangalore city police, who did not want to be named, said, “It is difficult to deploy a large number of policemen in all churches in the city. We are providing a minimum of three police personnel to small churches. But depending upon the requirement the church, we also provide KSRP platoons.” The city has seven Deputy Commissioners of Police (Law and Order) and all of them have requested churches in their jurisdiction to install CCTV cameras and metal detectors on the premises of their churches. The J.C. Nagar church has decided to install CCTV cameras and door metal detectors.


The number of churches, according to Mr. Goankar, is 48 in Mysore district (excluding Mysore city); 95 in Hassan district; 53 in Mandya district; 71 in Kodagu district and 55 in Chamarajanagar district.

<b>
‘End caste system before questioning conversion’</b>

Staff Correspondent

If people are fed up with the caste system won’t they convert to other faiths asks Srinivas Prasad

‘Conduct inquiry into allegations that New Life is printing literature against Hinduism’

‘It is the Government’s duty to protect the interests of minority communities’

MYSORE: Criticising the Bajrang Dal for the attacks on Christian prayer halls and churches across the State, the former Union Minister V. Srinivas Prasad asked the Sangh Parivar affiliates to eradicate the caste system before questioning conversion.

Addressing a press conference in Mysore on Monday, Mr. Prasad said the RSS, Bajrang Dal and the Vishwa Hindu Parishat (VHP) have made no effort to break the status quo on the rigid caste system in Hinduism. “What moral right do you have to question conversion?” Mr. Prasad sought to know. If people are fed up with the caste system would they not voluntarily convert to other faiths where they are embraced, he asked.

Mr. Prasad, who is also a Congress MLA from Nanjangud Assembly Constituency, referred to the pledge made by RSS during the celebration of Golwalkar’s centenary to eradicate untouchability. “But what measures have you taken towards this end?” the Congress leader asked. He said Dalit youths even to this day suffered due to the derision and contempt displayed by “upper castes”.

Mr. Prasad sought to know from the Sangh Parivar affiliates why they did not raise their voices when Dalits were kept away from the Ganesha immersion procession in Mysore recently.

“The organisers openly said that Dalit youths should not join the procession,” Mr. Prasad said.

Condemning the attacks on Christian institutions, Mr. Prasad sought to remind the BJP Government in the Karnataka that India was a secular State and protecting the interests of minority communities was its duty.

Though no complaint had been booked against “forcible conversion”, Mr. Prasad said the Bajrang Dal activists had taken law into their own hands by attacking churches. “They have been emboldened by the assumption of power by their own party,” the Congress leader said.

If the attacks continue, the Union Government should even consider banning Bajrang Dal, he said.
Inquiry

However, Mr Prasad said the Government should also look into the allegations that New Life and Satya Darshana were printing objectionable literature against Hinduism. “An inquiry should be conducted regarding the allegations and the culprits should be punished,” he said.
<b>
The Congress leader criticised Home Minister V.S. Acharya for the manner in which he has handled the crisis relating to the attacks. “He has been giving statements as a spokesperson of the VHP. He should bear in mind that he is the Home Minister of the State,” Mr. Prasad said.</b>

Mr. Prasad added that the State Government woke up to the seriousness of the attacks only after the Centre sent an advisory on the steps to be taken to ensure safety and security of minorities and their places of worship.

#53
Instead of crying about conversions, Hindus should take the battle into enemy territory by recoverting Christians into Hindus. Hindus should stop reconversion efforts only if the Christians stop their conversion efforts.

#54
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/23vhp.htm

<b>
VHP approaches minorities commission against Christian missionaries</b>

A Vishwa Hindu Parishad-led delegation, comprising ethnic tribesmen from North-Eastern states and Punjab, on Tuesday met the National Minorities Commission and National Tribal Commission to submit evidence of alleged misdeeds by Christian missionaries.

The delegation was led by Vishwa Hindu Parishad’s national spokesperson Surendra Jain and comprised representatives from the states of Tripura, Mizoram and Punjab.

“On September 10, <b>Christian missionaries burnt the Guru Granth Sahib in Bhatinda</b>. In Mizoram, a sub-divisional magistrate wrote a letter to a Chakma tribe family, asking it to give up its agricultural land for construction of a church. We have a copy of that,” said Jain.

“We have submitted copies of documentary evidence, photographs and newspaper clippings of cases of missionary aggressions and forced conversions to both the commissions,” he added.

The delegation handed over a memorandum to the Tribal Commission seeking their right to retain their culture, belief and livelihood. The delegation from Punjab approached the National Minorities Commission seeking protection of their minority status.

#55
Ramana has posted the article in India Strategy thread

<b>The decline of the West is a pre-requisite for the emergence of India as a global power.</b>

Good read.

From this thread's viewpoint: How much is the US fall going to affect pockets of Southern Baptists etc?
#56
Yossarin has postulated a "National Do Not Proselytize Directory".

http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008...an-alternative/
#57

<b>
Sangh Parivar: we have no role in the attacks
</b>
Special Correspondent

VHP suspects role of political parties in the targeting of churches

‘Attacks are a response to conversions’

We do not support the ongoing violence: Murthy

BANGALORE: Seven days after the attacks on prayer halls and churches started in the State, the Sangh Parivar on Sunday denied its role in the incidents.

The denial has come at a time when the pressure on the Centre for banning the Bajrang Dal is mounting.

Addressing a press conference here on Sunday, Vishwa Hindu Parishad regional secretary (Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh) B. N. Murthy said: “the opponents of Sangh Parivar have a prominent role in these attacks.”

He suspected the role of the Congress, Janata Dal (Secular) and communists in the attacks.

When he was reminded that Bajrang Dal convener Mahendra Kumar himself had owned up responsibility for attacks while speaking to TV channels, Mr. Murthy maintained that “such a statement was just an emotional response to the conversions and that he had withdrawn the statement later.”

Claiming that the BJP Government in the State had initiated steps to put an end to violence, Mr. Murthy took exception to the alleged efforts by the Centre and the Opposition in the State to pull down the Government.

At the same time, Mr. Murthy termed the ongoing attacks as the “sharp response to conversions.” The Sangh Parivar was opposed to the “forced and induced conversions”. But it would not resort to violent ways of protest. “We do not support the ongoing violence and we want this to end,” he said.

He alleged that most of the conversions were based on inducement and demanded that the flow of foreign funds for such conversions should be stopped.
<b>
He maintained that the conversions were leading to cultural conflicts within the converted families.

Heads of Catholic and Protestant religious organisations should publicly criticise the conversions and also disassociate themselves with those outfits which were into conversions, he demanded.</b>

#58
<b>Christian Fundamentalism Permeates the Republican Party: Sarah Palin’s links to the Christian Right
</b>
by F. William Engdahl
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->..
As I discuss in some detail in my soon-to-be-released book, Full Spectrum Dominance: Totalitarian Democracy in the New World Order, one of the most significant transformations of American domestic politics over the past three decades since the early 1970’s, <b>when George H.W. Bush was head of the CIA, has been the deliberate manipulation of significant segments of the population, most of them undoubtedly sincere believing people, around the ideology of ‘born-again’ evangelical Christian Fundamentalism to create something known as the Christian Right</b>. ...
..
<i>The CNP: manipulating religion to political ends</i>

<b>Many of the religious evangelical groups in America are coordinated top-down by a secretive organization called the Committee on National Policy.</b> Former close Bush adviser, Rev. Ted Haggard, was a member of the Committee on National Policy until a sex and drugs scandal forced him out in late 2006.

<b>Haggard was Pastor of the New Life</b> Church in Colorado Springs described as the ‘evangelical Vatican,’ and was head of the National Association of Evangelicals. <b>Ted Haggard was also a member of a highly significant and little-understood sect known as Joel’s Army or the Manifest Sons of God, the same circles which spawned Sarah Palin.</b>

Another noteworthy member of the CNP as was Grover Norquist, the man once described as the ‘Field Marshall of the Bush Plan.’

The CNP, created in the early 1980’s during the Reagan era, is the nexus for several odd and quite powerful organizations. It was described by ABC's Marc J. Ambinder as ‘the conservative version of the Council on Foreign Relations.’ CNP Members include names such as General John Singlaub, shipping magnate J. Peter Grace, Texas billionaire Nelson Bunker Hunt, Edwin J. Feulner Jr of the right-wing Heritage Foundation, Rev. Pat Robertson of the Christian Broadcasting Network, Jerry Falwell, Tim LaHaye and most of the prominent names in the Christian Right around Bush. It has included prominent politicians including Senator Trent Lott, Senator Don Nickles, former Attorney General Ed Meese, Col. Oliver North of Iran-Contra fame, and Right-wing philanthropist Else Prince, mother of Erik Prince, the founder of Blackwater the controversial private security firm.

CNP members have also included not only the Rev. Sun Myung Moon Unification Church, definitely... The CNP as well reportedly includes the Church of Scientology.

CNP member and GOP strategist, Gary Bauer, links both. Bauer’s Family Research Council was a signatory of the Scientology Pledge to<b> remove psychology from California schools </b>and replace it with L. Ron Hubbard's Dianetics. ..

Religious researchers Paul and Phillip Collins describe the CNP as follows: ‘The CNP appears to be a creation of factions of the power elite designed to mobilize well-meaning Christians to unwittingly support elite initiatives. The CNP could also be considered a project in religious engineering that empties Christianity of its metaphysical substance and re-conceptualizes many of its principles and concepts according to the socially and politically expedient designs of the elite. These contentions are supported by the fact that many CNP members are also members of other organizations and/or criminal enterprises that are tied directly to the power elite.’

...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


#59
US concern over attacks
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->September 24, 2008

Bangalore, DHNS: US Consul General Andrew T Simkin and his three member team on Tuesday expressed grave concern over the attacks on churches and Christians in Karnataka, after a meeting with Christian leaders here.

A detailed dossier on the violence and attacks was handed over by the leaders to Simkin.  <b>The meeting was held at the request of the team, which was acting on the directions of the US Department of State.</b> Vice Consul Paul A Hinshaw,  Political Officer Scott E Woodard, and Economist George Mathew were part of the team.  The Consul General revealed that they had already sent their diplomats to Mangalore too. The US government always surveys such occurences whenever a faith was under attack and reports to Washington.

The diplomat had  a luncheon meeting with inter alia MP <b>H T Sangliana</b>, retired HC judge Justice M F Saldanha; retired DGP FTR Colaso, President of the Global Council of Christians Dr Sajan George, <b>B G Koshy of Transparency International</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Sangliana is the head of New Life, the christian group which published the booklets which incited hate towards hindu gods.
Now he goes and hand overs a "detailed dossier" to an official of foreign govt.

The plan is simple: Incite hate against others and when they respond in kind, shout discrimination and run to the foreign nation which funded the group.
Note: New Life is an american origin group.


Also to be noted is the presence of B G Koshy of Transparency International in this group which met the american foreign official.
To a small extent the FDI inflows in the country are dependent on the perception of economic climate that is prevailing there. Perception on the levels of corruption in the country also plays an important part in the decision of investment.
Since this Transparency International has taken a consistently opposing stand by trying to paint high levels of corruption in india the role of the organisation needs to be investigated.

Months after the new bjp govt took office in karnataka this transparency International came with a report that karnataka was the most corrupt state in India. Coincidence?

#60
The whole christian attack is a strategy and that is why I suggested in BJP thread that BJP needs to come up with legal method to control these missionaries who incite trouble. Direct counter attack by VHP or BD is like walking into the trap.

- Setup laws, after identifying the tactics used by these people
- In the name of security, enforce CCTV in church functions and record what they say and do in the church
- Demand free access for police at church premises in the name of providing them security
- Keep close watch what these leaders do and leak their activities to public without letting knowing the source or method.
- Verify tax returns by their institutions
- If there is any legal fraud, government should take over their assets and close them. Sell or build a government office or public toilet in that premise as soon as possible.
- Recover public properties appropriated by church/EJs and make them pay hefty fine too.
- If there is any compaint against any of the church/missionary run institutions, investigate to the bottom and bring out other skeletons in their closet.

Whole exercise should be very systematic.


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