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The Real Indian IQ
<!--QuoteBegin-Pandyan+Feb 9 2009, 11:04 PM-->QUOTE(Pandyan @ Feb 9 2009, 11:04 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Gsub, you say SIB IQ levels are near ashkenazi jew, why aren't we seeing the same level of scientific output then from SIB's? Any reason for this.

I'll state the following:

US Academia: Science requires funding to be able to generate output. Funding (I am ashamed to say) requires connections (even in the US). Jewish people have been well established here in science. More Jews have the inbuilt desire to over achieve, to serve as editors, NIH reviewers, etc, who hold the reins of who gets funded. Most reviewers fund each other's proposals.

US Non-academic science: almost the same. Looser relationship, but most achievements are not individually credited anyways.

If you want to ask why Indian science is so far behing compared to Israeli science for example, easy: almost no infrastructure in India. Humongous amounts of red tape for anything.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pandyan+Feb 9 2009, 11:04 PM-->QUOTE(Pandyan @ Feb 9 2009, 11:04 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Gsub, you say SIB IQ levels are near ashkenazi jew, why aren't we seeing the same level of scientific output then from SIB's? Any reason for this.

There is a very good reason, let me explain in detail

The caste based dharma of SIB is school teacher
As such they are extremely risk averse

Even the most affluent SIBs are only 2 generations from semi-starvation
Their grandfathers were school teachers

Consider Narayanmurthy of INFOSYS as an example of this genre
His father was a teacher with 8 kids

So most of us have anecdotally heard of 1 or 2 generations ago
of not having milk, eating old buttermilk rice, sleeping on the floor etc

The goal is to get a safe middle class job

About 2 generations ago, it was a college professor, or mid level govt job

Later it became getting into medicine or engineering

These days it is making $100k a year safely

Also, there are responsibilities to the family, such as financially supporting
siblings, parents, other relatives etc

So the goal is to deliberately avoid risk

Other communities such as marwaris are more risk takers

In the international math olympiads, India does middlingly well
whereas in the 6 member US math olympiad team of 2008, there are 2 brahmins

Consider what happens to the Indian math olympiad team
The best high school students go to IIT and medicine
and avoid the math olympiad
Preparing for math olympiad takes 6 months of coaching and this
will affect grades in board exam and IIT exam

Whereas in china etc, the math olympiad students are guaranteed good seats in engineering colleges

The second tier tries for the math olympiad

At end of high school the science group doing BSc is 3rd tier

The first tier goes to IIT or medicine,
the second tier goes to other engineering colleges and only the 3rd tier
goes to pure science or math stream

Most nobel winners are working in US labs

Consider the Indian guy on F1,
he does not even enter the pure science stream, he is doing an MSEE

Or if PhD, in applied science like engineering
not pure science

Nobel is done in pure sciences

The SIB looking for $100k safely will do MSEE or PhD in Engineering

The jewish guy, independently super-rich by Indian standards, and not
having to support family in India can afford to spend 20 years in pure sciences
doing post Doc and getting only $40k

The first Asiatic Nobel in the sciences was CV.Raman ( SIB )
working in shitty Kolkata univ
His nephew Chandrasekhar (SIB ) also got Nobel in 1973, for work done in 1931

( the first japanese nobel came much later )

The Indian nuke team of 1974 consisted of 12 people
of which 8 SIB, 1 NIB and 3 Northern merchants

given the primitive funding and equipment of Indian science
This was almost as difficult a feat as the Alamo effort of Oppenheimer
in 1945

Whereas the soviets stole the US design
The soviets also gifted the nuke design to chinese in 1958

What I am trying to say is that most first and second tier SIB avoid pure sciences
for financial reasons
Instead they do MBA, MSEE, PhD engineering etc

The jewish guy not having the financial burdens can afford to experiment in life

As poverty recedes in India, there will be more willingness to experiment in life by going into pure sciences

I have a URL from Arthur Hu
wherein he states that the only group beating the jews in all fields is
Hindu Americans

In the SATs, Hindu Americans match the Ashkenazi jews, 115 IQ

The SAT is the 2nd generation score and is affected by regression to mean
and neutralises the effect of the first generation being selected for higher IQ

The Hindu American group consists of a blend of Caribbean hindus, Jat Sikhs,
Patel motel owners, etc, of this blend, SIBs are about 10%
Per my rough calculations, this SIB subset is at 125 IQ

And assuming that due to selection effect, this subset is 0.5 SD above the SIB in India
gives an SIB-India score of 117, ( after improving nutrition )

Shambu wrote

More Jews have the inbuilt desire to over achieve,

<b>whereas the goal of SIB is to make $100k safely</b>
La griffe du lion, blogs that the real key in understanding IQ is verbal IQ,
not Ravens matrices

Based on law school results he posits that chinese have a verbal IQ
0.5 SD below whites,

Whereas jews have a strong verbal IQ
He in fact writes that Ashkenazis have a 127 verbal IQ and
a math IQ of 106

I sort of suspect this verbal IQ score

However, I suspect that Indian verbal IQ is very high compared to chinese
because most Indians are bilingual
Hindi + regional language

and over 100 million are trilingual
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+Feb 10 2009, 08:23 AM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Feb 10 2009, 08:23 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Shambu wrote

More Jews have the inbuilt desire to over achieve,

<b>whereas the goal of SIB is to make  $100k safely</b>

Absolutely. Without going into details, I will say that you can sense how Jews look at other Jews as Jews first, and how they hold them to higher expectations, that "you must do something for our (jewish) people". I am saying this in an extremely appreciative manner, no bitterness. Hindus dont do this. They will, at the most, have some vague feeling of "desh". No religious feeling.
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+Feb 10 2009, 08:21 AM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Feb 10 2009, 08:21 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The first Asiatic Nobel in the sciences was CV.Raman ( SIB )
working in shitty Kolkata univ

Back in 1917, when Raman joined it, Calcutta University was a primary incubator of India's researchers, including in pure sciences but more predominantly in fields of humanities, most notably in creating the first generation of indegenous historians, under the Vice-Chancellorship of Sir Asutosh Mookerjee (the father of Dr. S P Mookerjee) - and one of the best places to conduct research anywhere outside the avarNAvarta.

And your data is quite skewed. You ignore the larger set of the contemporaries of Raman. The data would show that a fair share of scientists did come from communities other than the so called "South Indian Brahmins", and from even non-brAhmaNa jAti-s.

Consider some famous non-SIB names of that era:

- J C Basu, SN Basu -- both physicist and bengali brahmins
- Meghnad Saha, the physicist known for his work in ionization of stellar atmosphere -- vaishya
- Birbal Sahni, the palaeobotanist -- doab khattri
- HJ Bhabha, the nuclear-physicist -- parsi
- SS Bhatnagar, physical-chemistry -- kayastha

So I go back to repeating my earlier position that while I agree with your line of work, I totally fail to understand your methodology. To me, you seem like taking a prejudiced (a-)historic theory in the first place, and then to it you keep adding statistical factoids, which will not really help your quest. You have to first begin by taking the fundamental route of any statistical analysis -- First gauge your measurement system, and independently certify it, before producing the analysis from the dataset it has yielded.
SIB's arent any more special than any other jati. Their relative achievement seems good because almost all of them have a basic level of education and their traditions(which are rapidly eroding) actively encouraged simple living and high thinking. So the jewish competitiveness is quite well matched here.

Also, at the very high level (persons who really advance a subject) the number of great Indian scientists and mathematicians is more or less distributed equally all across India and even across Jatis. Especially the kayasthas, the vaishyas of the north.

I think that as more jatis get educated, great scientists will come from all jatis. In recent history several shudra communities have successfully adapted to modernity and are productive human beings in every sense of the term.

SIB's have had several advantages: a relatively peaceful history, strong traditions/discipline and the support of the other jatis. They capitalized on it and emerged as a somewhat successful community. It should not be construed that they are superior in any way

I'll add to it that SIB had the opportunity to work closely with British as their administrator employees. There by they had the advantage of getting modern education much ahead of other communities.
S.Basu and JC Basu were kAyastha
I think the kAyastha community, other than the brAhmaNa-s and vaishya-s were characterized by a higher than average intelligence. How brAhmaNa-s, and other Indian FCs compare with respect the Ashkenazim in intelligence needs more controlled study. The "OBC" layer of India is rather heterogeneous making it hard to create a general description of intelligence for this group of original service castes. If we remove nutritional deficiency the most important determinant of intelligence is genetics with education and parental background having at best a small role. We should keep in mind that tropics and temperate-frigid zones exert entirely different selective pressures on intelligence and other body parameters. In a tropical zone with reasonable water supply there is a reduced selection for intelligence compared to a temperate-frigid zone. India with its peculiar monsoonal system offers a middle ground, due to water supply being fairly variable (at least in some parts). Nevertheless I would imagine some depression of intelligence in India with good tropical climate in the past. Against this background only the social selective pressures of certain caste occupations would have selected for higher than average intelligence.
Actually in pre-modern times, India was the easiest place to make a living
India has twice the arable land that china has

And given that most of the populace is non-veg,
fish is abundant near coasts and rivers

Given the ease of living, evolution would not select for higher IQ

The caste specialisation in many fields forced skills in many fields to evolve

When nutrition and education becomes more available
I would expect a lot of the OBC vishwakarma castes to actually show up
among the higher IQ segment

The biggest part of the human brain actually deals with fine motor skills
and the skilled artisan vishwakarma castes have been evolving towards higher hand-eye co-ordination

Malnutrition in India, along with lack of micronutrients like iodine is definitely causing a 10 point IQ loss

In addition, especially in south India, cousin marraige is causing a 8 point hit
and niece marriage, a 15 point hit

As the populace gets educated, this will decrease, causing increase of IQ
GS, I wish you could package your conclusions in a manner amenable to wider dissemination.
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Feb 11 2009, 09:37 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Feb 11 2009, 09:37 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->GS, I wish you could package your conclusions in a manner amenable to wider dissemination.

I get my revelations in bits and pieces
and second, I dont want to get into a pissing contest
with whomever takes offence

My posts are here on this thread
feel free to use them as you wish

In the US, hindu americans already take up 12% of MD slots

The key fact is hindus are verbally gifted, most are bilingual
and I expect to see a lot of hindu NRIs as lawyers too

Verbal IQ over-rides Ravens Matrices IQ, in practical life

I also notice, that hindu americans are able to milk the democratic system
and get elected in large numbers

The nay sayers will always say that the Hindu immigrant is selected
But all other countries also have the same 1965 law as a filter

The next key factor is regression to mean of the second generation
for example import PhDs from various countries,
at the first generation level, all are identical
However at the second generation level, hindu NRIs win easily

The mainstream western media cannot digest this
Their model minority is chinese or japanese
for reasons of racism and pagan hatred

There is a movie on spelling bee
"Akeelah and the Bee",
Spelling bee is monopolized by Indians
whereas the movie has a black, a hispanic, a white and a chinese

Once the janta in the west gets an appreciation of Indian skills
the public is less likely to fund EJ activity and so on
We should try to turn off the EJ tap in the west,
far easier than Bajrang Dal tactics all the time

I have my own outreach ideas
The west has stolen yoga as xtian yoga

My idea is to do outreach to white schools using vedic math
The stuff is amazing
Vedic math IMHO will establish Indian IQ in public perception at a
very high level
The books are cheap,
Ken williams teachers manual vol-1,2,3 total including shipping is $50
from vedicbooks.net
and we have so many techies who can pick it up in a flash

You are in silicon valley, have you any idea of the school performance
of Indian kids vs east asians in places like cupertino etc ?
I know there is white flight out of cupertino, because they
dont want to be outperformed by asiatics
Accelerated/dp/0465002218/]Human evolution[/URL]
This book has some very interesting discussion on evolution of IQ in human sub-populations like the Ashkenazim. It would be of interest to those following this matter, though some conclusions could be politically incorrect.

Posting link again, didn't seem to work for me. For others that may not be able to find it -


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I have a URL from Arthur Hu
wherein he states that the only group beating the jews in all fields is
Hindu Americans<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm unable to see this url, or did you previously post it in this thread? thanks.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pandyan+Feb 11 2009, 12:44 PM-->QUOTE(Pandyan @ Feb 11 2009, 12:44 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Posting link again, didn't seem to work for me. For others that may not be able to find it -


<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I have a URL from Arthur Hu
wherein he states that the only group beating the jews in all fields is
Hindu Americans<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm unable to see this url, or did you previously post it in this thread? thanks.


Asian Indians
Asian Indians are the only Asian ethnic group that consistently outranks the Jews on socio-economic measures and academic awards, if not politics. Unlike the Chinese, the Indians come largely already knowing English and western culture. While there are some Indians on the margins, Indians have remarkable incomes, education, and social statistics. Technically, they are racially similar to caucasians, but they do come from the Asian continent, and have a culture and history similar to East Asian "orientals".


The indians are actually dark-skinned caucasians, but they are from
the continent of Asia, from a social, economic, cultural and
historical standpoint, they have many similarities to Asian races
such as the Chinese, and share traits such as high income, high
education, low rates of single parenthood, and high academic

@@skin color

Jpark discusses whether darker
skin Indians in south are actually the smarter ones with more high
tech industry, even if light skinned ones still have higher status.


Asians vs Jews vs Chinese vs. Indians
If we set Jewish representation at 1.0, the Chinese are
better in some numbers, but only the Asian Indians are consistently
better in almost every categor.

Has a bunch of tables

Rankings without Jews
EE Times Survey W1.00 C10.7 I12.00

* Asians are better only at the Westinghouse contest, are
generally slightly worse overall, but better than most whites.
* Chinese are better at only about half the comparisons
* Indians are better in every comparison for which there is
a statistic except for high school dropout rate


dOC\DOC921\RELIG90.WK1 - religion ranked by race and SAT score
Source: Unpublished numbers, College Board, 1990

SAT-Comb 95/90* W1.0 B-1.27 H-1.18 A1.01 J*1.10 I*1.10 *

Note that Asians overall scored only slightly better than whites
overall when both math and verbals are counted. Asians were outscored
by Episcopals, Presbyterians, Black Unitarians, Jews and Hindus. Only
White Unitarians and Quakers outscored Jews.

"S.Basu and JC Basu were kAyastha"

yes, thanks for correction.

Jeopardy! Teen Tournament

2006 winner Chakravarthy
2008 winner Anurag Kashyap
US 2007 census survey, ACS

% with college education
$ median family annual income

White 29%, $54K
Black 17%, $34K
Hispanic 13%, $42K
Chinese 52%, $78K
Korean 53%, $53K
Japanese 47%, $66K
Asian Indian, 68%, $84K
Bangladeshi, 42%, $42K
Pakistani, 57%, $58K

Indian Americans: The New Model Minority
Jason Richwine, 02.24.09, 02:45 PM EST
Doctors, engineers, spelling bee champs--and Bobby Jindal.

The 2008 election barely ended before the GOP began touting the presidential prospects of Louisiana Gov. Piyush "Bobby" Jindal, the son of Indian immigrants. Tuesday, Jindal becomes the new face of his party when he delivers the official Republican response to President Obama's speech to Congress. Whether or not he actually runs for president in 2012, Jindal symbolizes a remarkable but rarely discussed phenomenon--the amazing success of Indian Americans in general, and what that success says about our immigration policy.

Most Americans know only one thing about Indians--they are really good at spelling bees. When Sameer Mishra correctly spelled guerdon last May to win the 2008 Scripps National Spelling Bee, he became the sixth Indian-American winner in the past 10 years. Finishing second was Sidharth Chand. Kavya Shivashankar took fourth place, and Janhnavi Iyer grabbed the eighth spot. And this was not even the banner year for Indian Americans--in 2005, the top four finishers were all of Indian descent.

It's tempting to dismiss Indian-American dominance of the spelling bee as just a cultural idiosyncrasy. But Indian success in more important fields is just as eye-catching. Despite constituting less than 1% of the U.S. population, Indian-Americans are 3% of the nation's engineers, 7% of its IT workers and 8% of its physicians and surgeons. The overrepresentation of Indians in these fields is striking--in practical terms, your doctor is nine times more likely to be an Indian-American than is a random passerby on the street.

Indian Americans are in fact a new "model minority." This term dates back to the 1960s, when East Asians--Americans of Chinese, Japanese and Korean descent--were noted for their advanced educations and high earnings.

East Asians continue to excel in the U.S, but among minority groups, Indians are clearly the latest and greatest "model." In 2007, the median income of households headed by an Indian American was approximately $83,000, compared with $61,000 for East Asians and $55,000 for whites.

About 69% of Indian Americans age 25 and over have four-year college degrees, which dwarfs the rates of 51% and 30% achieved by East Asians and whites, respectively. Indian Americans are also less likely to be poor or in prison, compared with whites.

So why do Indian Americans perform so well? A natural answer is self-selection. Someone willing to pull up roots and move halfway around the world will tend to be more ambitious and hardworking than the average person. But people want to come to the U.S. for many reasons, some of which--being reunited with other family members, for example--have little to do with industriousness. Ultimately, immigration policy decides which kinds of qualities our immigrants possess.
Comment On This Story

Under our current immigration policy, a majority of legal immigrants to the U.S. obtain green cards (permanent residency) because they have family ties to U.S. citizens, but a small number (15% in 2007) are selected specifically for their labor market value. The proportion of Indian immigrants given an employment-related green card is one of the highest of any nationality. Consequently, it is mainly India's educated elite and their families who come to the U.S.

The success of Indian Americans is also often ascribed to the culture they bring with them, which places strong--some would even say obsessive--emphasis on academic achievement. Exhibit A is the spelling bee, which requires long hours studying etymology and memorizing word lists, all for little expected benefit other than the thrill of intellectual competition.

But education and culture can take people only so far. To be a great speller--or, more importantly, a great doctor or IT manager--you have to be smart. Just how smart are Indian Americans? We don't know with much certainty. Most data sets with information on ethnic groups do not include IQ scores, and the few that do rarely include enough cases to provide interpretable results for such a small portion of the population.

The only direct evidence we have comes from the 2003 New Immigrant Survey, in which a basic cognitive test called "digit span" was administered to a sample of newly arrived immigrant children. It is an excellent test for comparing people with disparate language and educational backgrounds, since the test taker need only repeat lengthening sequences of digits read by the examiner. Repeating the digits forward is simply a test of short-term memory, but repeating them backward is much more mentally taxing, hence a rough measure of intelligence.

When statistical adjustments are used to convert the backward digit span results to full-scale IQ scores, Indian Americans place at about 112 on a bell-shaped IQ distribution, with white Americans at 100. 112 is the 79th percentile of the white distribution. For more context, consider that Ashkenazi Jews are a famously intelligent ethnic group, and their mean IQ is somewhere around 110.

Given the small sample size, the rough IQ measure and the lack of corroborating data sets, this finding of lofty Indian-American intelligence must be taken cautiously. Nevertheless, it is entirely consistent with their observed achievement.

The superior educational attainment, academic culture and likely high IQ of Indian Americans has already made them an economic force in the U.S., and that strength can only grow. Does this continuing success imply they will become a political force? Here, Gov. Jindal is actually a rarity. Indians are still underrepresented in politics, and they do not specialize in the kinds of fields (law and finance) most conducive to political careers. Time will tell if they are able to convert economic power into serious political influence, as a Jindal presidency could.

A much clearer implication of Indian-American success is that immigrants need not be unskilled, nor must their economic integration take generations to achieve. In sharp contrast to Indian Americans, most U.S. immigrants, especially Mexican, are much less wealthy and educated than U.S. natives, even after many years in the country.

A new immigration policy that prioritizes skills over family reunification could bring more successful immigrants to the U.S. By emphasizing education, work experience and IQ in our immigration policy, immigrant groups from other national backgrounds could join the list of model minorities.

There is nothing inevitable about immigration. Who immigrates each year is a policy decision, free to be modified at any time by Congress. Constructing new legislation is always difficult, but I propose a simple starting point for immigration selection: Anyone who can spell guerdon is in!

Jason Richwine is a National Research Initiative fellow at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington.

whats your opinion of Pakistani IQ? Its listed almost same as Indian IQ in IQ and wealth of nations book. Although, if you compared Indian and Pakistani immigrants in UK, Indians outperform everyone except Chinese and Pakistani are at bottom with blacks and Bangladeshis. Islam means -5IQ like you said before,

but what about consanguineous marriages and other incest that is practiced? how much can be subtracted due to that. note, cousin marriage is also done in South india.

I cant seem to think of any pakistani geniuses like ramanujan, cv raman, or khorana. aq khan had to steal information and buy from chinese to make nukes.

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