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The Real Indian IQ
About 80% of may rather vast army of cousins are medical Dr. One PhD (me), one IIM, one Chartered Accountant. More than half of fathers and mom's siblings med Dr or PhD. Fathers father was med Dr. mom's father was Prof. Though I seem to be the only one deeply interested in the topics we discuss on IF.

We are shaiva, every Monday dad does not eat anything except fruits and milk. Takes bath in evening and then bel leaves to Shiva. I do not remember any exceptions. We are on the list of "keepers" sort of for one of the big temples in Goa. Ganesh chaturthi (5 days I think) in our native house in Goa, every yr.

I was told that we were allowed to eat fish once we had migrated to Goa, whenever that was, and are Gaud Saraswat Bramhin. My thread ceremony was done with due ritual in our native house, as for all cousins. I personally have a fascination for Shiva and try to read up on my roots: Kashmir Shaivism, and Swami Laxmanjoo who is considered the greatest pratitioner/adept at this path...
Thanks. Who is your ishta devata?

Also GS can you write up the whole IQ thing in a aarticle fashoon so it can get some traction?

Thanks, ramana
I am offering an updated model

The changes are mainly that the Dalit category was improved from 80IQ ( African ) to 85IQ ( African American ) this reduced the spread and the high end

Updated Step by Step 6-18-2008


1. Population distribution is

Southern Brahmin, 1%

Northern Brahmin, 4%

Southern Merchant, 3%

Northern Merchant, 12%

Peasant, 40%

Dalit, Muslim, Tribal, 40%

2. Islamic massacres were of 2 types,

First general massacres in which all castes suffered and secondly

religious massacres associated with destruction of hindu temples

this focused on the elite of the brahmins and to a lesser extent merchants

Muslim rule was mainly based in Urban areas in north India

and rural areas were often semi-independent hindu rule

The Islam massacre penalty for Northern Brahmins is 5IQ and

Northern Merchants is 3IQ, for Northern Peasants and Northern Dalits 0IQ penalty

3. I assume that Dalits ( including muslims and tribals ) will eventually be no

worse than African Americans, 85IQ

4. The Flynn deficit for Dalits is 10IQ, for Peasants 5IQ and

3IQ for Merchants and brahmins

Current IQ of Dalits = 75

5. Per 1999 Malnutrition Study in a northern merchant Neighborhood in Pune

the Avg for the healthy kids was 102

6. Current Northern Merchant = 102

Current Southern Merchant = 105

7. In unfiltered Diaspora in advanced Countries

Northern Merchant = 105

Southern Merchant = 108

8. Based on Above, Peasant in Advanced Diaspora = 85 + 8 ( half SD above Dalit ) = 93IQ

Peasant in India today = 88IQ

The peasant is half an SD above the Dalit and comes under a separate

reservation category

9. The Southern Merchant comes under a separate reservation category than

the Southern brahmin and

Southern Brahmin = Southern Merchant + 8 ( half SD ) =

108 + 8 = 116IQ in Advanced Diaspora

11. Southern Brahmin in India = 116 -3 = 113IQ

12. Northern Brahmin in India = 113 - 5 = 108IQ

13. Current Indian IQ =

1% Southern Brahmin @ 113IQ

4% Northern Brahmin @ 108IQ

3% Southern Merchant @ 105IQ

12% Northern Merchant @ 102 IQ

40% Peasant @ 88IQ

40% Dalit @ 75IQ

Average = 86.04IQ

14. Future Indian IQ =

1% Southern Brahmin @ 116IQ

4% Northern Brahmin @ 111IQ

3% Southern Merchant @ 108IQ

12% Northern Merchant @ 105 IQ

40% Peasant @ 93IQ

40% Dalit @ 85IQ

Average = 92.64IQ
The under-estimating of Indian IQ

These IQ tests make use of the Ravens matrices that uses a series of pictograms and co-relates with math IQ

In ravens matrices, East asians are 6IQ above whites

Whereas, East Asians, are 4IQ below whites in Verbal IQ

The Indian strength in verbal IQ is not measured by the Ravens matrices

Most Indians are bi-lingual
GS, do you mind avoid using the word dalit and use SC instead? Also, instead of tribals, please call them ST. I'm not sure if it is appropriate to call them them tribals, because many of them became vanavasis by choice some point in time.
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Jun 18 2008, 03:51 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Jun 18 2008, 03:51 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Thanks. Who is your ishta devata?
Thanks, ramana

Mangesh (one of the darshans if Shiva)

India as an Emerging "Brain Power"

By Masanori Kondo Senior Associate Professor (Development Economics, Indian Economy)International Christian University, Tokyo


PHOTO:Jansinee Kankaew

A friend of mine who lives in Koto Ward, Tokyo, told me, “We have so many Indians living in our condominium that our notices come with English translations these days.” The number of Indian residents in Japan is now up to 17,500, and over sixty percent of them are IT engineers and their families. Among the Japanese community, they enjoy a favorable reputation as being polite and courteous neighbors.

These days many American companies have substantial research and development (R&D) activities in India. They are aggressively recruiting the best Indians as part of their global human resource strategy. This trend is backed by the emergence of India-born CEOs in major multinational corporations, including McKinsey, Citigroup, Vodafone and PepsiCo.

How are things in Japan, then? The total value of IT software exported by India to Japan was an insignificant three percent of its total IT exports. Though some Japanese companies hire Chinese employees, there are almost none that hire Indians to work at their company headquarters.

Besides, the number of Indian students in Japan is only five hundred. This is no match for the seventy thousand Chinese students that are in Japan, and it is even less than half the number of students from far smaller countries like Nepal and Sri Lanka. Interchange with Indians living in Japan is also limited.

Traditionally, Indians have always held a good image of Japan. Most of the Indian students who come to study in Japan develop a strong affinity to the country by the time they return home. However, as there are not many successful career patterns for “Japan experts,” Japan has become a less attractive destination for Indians to study. It leads to the vicious cycle of Japanese companies finding it difficult to enter the Indian market with little knowledge of India, and fewer Indians getting hired by Japanese companies.

Many Japanese companies tend to look upon India much in the same way as they viewed Southeast Asia that brought much success two decades ago. In other words, Japanese companies see India as a source of “labor” rather than “brains.” A former high-ranking Indian official, who is a Japanophile, pointed out: “Whereas Japanese people tend to measure the intellectual level of the people of a nation by per-capita income, Indian elites assess the abilities of their opponents based on their English prowess. And that is what causes a psychological gap between the Japanese and the Indians.

Since only Japanese people are involved, accumulated information on India tends to become one-sided in Japan. There are plenty of cases where failures and setbacks in business and ODA all get blamed on the catch-all, “It’s the fault of the Indians.” That is quite different from what I heard from a South Korean business organization that has proved successful in India. An official claimed, “In dealing with India, we have nothing to complain about. We simply stick to doing what the Romans do.”

According to Prof. K. Momaya, the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) in Delhi welcomes some fifty delegations from Japan every year. But alas, there are precious few cases where these visits actually lead to some concrete project getting implemented. Delegations from the United States, Europe and South Korea are much less in number, but they constantly leave their mark and bear fruit in such forms as new labs, joint research and recruitment.

Unfortunately Japan has a reputation across India as a country that keeps on dispatching large delegations with no follow-ups. It has to be reminded that there are two hundred IIT graduates working in Japan. Most of them work for non-Japanese companies, Including the top official of Citibank in Japan. It makes more sense to meet these graduates here in Japan for information exchange before sending fruitless delegations to India.

This is one more example of sheer nonsense that is emanating from these psuedo scholars like Rushton, Lynn etc:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->For Mauritius, the population consists of 68 percent Indians, 27 percent Creole (black-white hybrids), 3 percent Chinese and 1 percent whites. It is assumed that the IQs are 81 for the Indians (as in India), 82 for the Creoles (as for South African coloreds), 100 for the Chinese (as in China) and 94 for the whites (as for the whites in South Africa). Weighting these figures by the percentages in the population gives an IQ of 81.

The whole estimate is hinged on unproven assumptions, first off the Indian IQ is based on a few tests conducted in the most underdeveloped states of India, secondly the Mauritian Indians live in a more developed country than their Indian counterparts, so the Flynn effect should be taken into account.

Mauritius is no Singapore but it is no Zimbabwe either, its a stable middle income country that is still developing, it had a per capita income 7k US in 2008:


That is a decent achievement, why don't these wankers just do a few IQ tests in Mauritius for a change instead of extrapolating from some old tests conducted in some obscure village of MP or Bihar.
In a way, I hope these stupids keep spreading that Indian IQ is 81
Consider what happens when a gora with some racist views, thinks Indians in diaspora are 81 and goes up against dark south Indians, whom he probably thinks are 75IQ

In the real world, Indians in silicon valley alerted western corporations to an unexpected pool of high IQ, cheap labor in India, so at the high end we have outsourcing of software, and at the low end, outsourcing of call centers

And now every white collar job in between
As of now, every single fortune 500 corp, every single major law and accounting firm already has started to outsource and I dont see why the Indian white collar worker cannot screw the white middle class just as the chinese blue collar worker screwed the white labor class
Racist Japanese want Indian IIT students


Japanese Universities Wooing Indian Students

The development of a global knowledge-based international society is now questioning the rubrics of the Japanese model of higher education.

Like any other postindustrial society, Japan too faces many structural problems in higher education related to resource allocation, university hierarchies, hiring processes, ethnic diversity and formulating curricula that leave both the faculty and graduates dissatisfied. The traditional purpose for which these universities were created has become so eroded that most universities find it difficult to distinguish the means from the ends. Instead of a serious debate on overhauling the educational system completely, Japan hopes that its outmoded system would still work with a little bit of tinkering.

Wanting to improve the standards of Japanese higher education and make it internationally competitive, Tokyo University plans to recruit bright young students from India to come and study in Japan.

Both the Japanese media and intelligentsia believe that in the last decade India has excelled in many areas from information technology and medicine to overseas investment and academic cooperation. Japan therefore wants the very best talent from India. It desires the top companies to invest in Japan. It wishes IIT students to come to its universities. It seeks top Indian politicians and CEOs to lecture in Japan. This tendency is termed in Japan as ‘brand hunting’. The fetish for brand names does not necessarily ensure quality or benefit, though brands are hard to get. By and large Japan assumes that its status as an advanced nation should be enough to attract the crème da la crème from India.

Most Japanese universities like Tokyo University are keen to invite the very best students from India to study at their prestigious campuses as they feel the urgency to compete effectively with other universities in Asia

It is also quite concerned that the information technology departments at Indian universities have ten times more students than departments at Japanese universities. It is somewhat troubled that over the decades Indian universities have forged important academic links both with Britain and the United States, which have given them an edge, which it does not have.

In order to gain lost ground Tokyo University plans to woo Indian students, whose numbers are abysmally low in Japan, by opening a representative office in New Delhi next year. Last year itself only ten Indian students were enrolled in different course at Tokyo University, while at the same time 679 Chinese students and 502 South Korean students studied here. The new plan envisaged by the University for India involves joint research projects and admissions in its various faculties. Most Japanese universities hope that these spectacular superficial plans would undoubtedly attract exceptional Indian students from elite institutions from India to come and study in Japan.

Well, easier said than done. The haunting question is why these supposedly brilliant Indian students do not want to come to Japan, even when Japanese universities are inviting them with open arms? This question is not so difficult for Indian students to answer but incomprehensible to government planners. As Indian students gradating from prestigious institutions like the IITs, IIM

would tell you, that even before they graduate they have secured admissions to equally prestigious institutions in the U.S. or Britain with full scholarships. Such students not only aspire to do well at American universities but actually do well and then find a job, get a green card, buy a house within a few years and settle down with equal rights as any other native born American citizens. They can then decide to retain their Indian citizenship or become a U.S. citizen. These students would like to know if Japan could do better.

The Japanese system of university employment is heavily biased against foreign academics. There is no transparency in the salary structure. It is virtually impossible for Indian academics to find tenured professorship; and the immigration laws do not make things easy. The chances of Indian students getting absorbed as tenured faculty after completing their doctoral program are minimal or nonexistent. To add to all this Indian students would have to invest a couple of years learning the Japanese language and bear with the high cost of living and studying in Japan. After they procure a degree what are they expected to do? Go back to India and become an interpreter! Or join a Japanese company in India as an executive on an Indian salary! You must be kidding!

This does not mean that Indian students will not come to Japan even when they are wooed. India is a vast country with 369 universities and 18064 colleges. Over eleven million students are enrolled at these universities and colleges where English is largely the medium of instruction.* There are thousands of students who do not belong to the prestigious institutions named earlier. They come from middle-level universities and see Japan as a possible destination to secure a future. Such students may not have found a good American or European university to go to and they would be most willing to try their hand at a Japanese university. The bind however is that Japanese universities do not want such students; they want the very best.

Japan is the only country where the money spent on English learning is highest and the results lowest. In this prickly situation it is rather difficult to evolve a truly egalitarian and international education.
Another way that the racists belittle Indian IQ is to ignore the US Indian diaspora by saying that it is selected

But they do not say it for all the other diasporas in the US that are also selected
GS, Thanks for you insight into the IQ values of the sub-groups of Indian population. Let me relate a personal anecdote. I took the Mensa test and passed with flying colors but dont feel that I am in that category. It always bothered me that the test appeared easy and yet I dont feel I belong to that category and I really don't. I am average schmoe among my peers in college back home.

If avg values in South India are that high then it explains my rectitude.
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+Jun 26 2008, 11:12 PM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Jun 26 2008, 11:12 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Another way that the racists belittle Indian IQ is to ignore the US Indian diaspora by saying that it is selected

But they do not say it for all the other diasporas in the US that are also selected

There is a fundamental tacit agreement to show that Indians have low IQ.
This systematic image creation going on for 100 years is astounding.
Even if you claim that the first generation of the Indian diaspora is super-selected, there is something called regression to the mean

What this means is that in a population of Avg IQ = 100, a man having 160IQ will have kids that move 80% to the mean, meaning, his kids will be at 112IQ

All nationalities send their top scientists to the US, but if you look at the next generation, you will find, Indians on top, followed by jews and chinese

The performance of the second generation reflects more towards what the Average IQ is
Meaning the selection effect, reduces by 80% in the second generation

and in that, Indian kids in the diaspora are on top
Look at SAT, spelling bees, Medical students etc

Implications at the high end IQ, India vs USA

Given USA = 300 mil, 100IQ Avg, 15SD

and given my conservative, current indian IQ

Southern Brahmin, 1% @ 113
Northern Brahmin, 4% @ 108
Southern Merchant, 3% @ 105
Northern Merchant, 12% @ 102
Peasant, 40% @ 88IQ
SC/ST/Muslim 40% @ 75IQ

In the above 130IQ, Mensa Level, India currently has 11 million
and increasing as nutrition improves per my model will have 18 million
above 130IQ

Whereas, the US only has 7 mil above 130IQ

This has profound long term implications, meaning no sanction will work against India, and also every white collar job that does not need a direct presence will be done both cheaper and better by off-shoring to India

I foresee 50 million western white collar jobs paying $20k per year being offshored to India

These jobs wont go to China because of poor verbal skills and wont go to Philipines because of low IQ in Philipines
This is a test that mimics Raven's Advanced Progressive Matrices.


It is appropriate for adults and adolescents of above average intelligence.
From call centers to software and every other white collar job within

This was in 2004, the trend will be even more visible now


The Americanization of Chennai has been so swift
and--save inside the Park Hotel--so quiet that many of its
citizens do not yet grasp the change in their cultural and
literal landscape. An animation company makes cartoons
seen by American children on Saturday mornings.
Radiologists read American MRIs, clerks adjudicate
patients’ insurance claims, and programmers automate
Medicaid eligibility for an entire Midwestern state.
Chartered accountants complete U.S. tax returns while
underwriters certify U.S. mortgages. And within Office
Tiger’s pink building aspiring financiers analyze American
firms that are ripe for corporate takeover in a place they
call Wall Street East.


"Every sector of the legal offshoring industry will grow dramatically, including lower end services, such as document coding and legal transcription. Ultimately, however, the biggest impact, the long-term mother lode, will be higher-value services such as legal research and drafting – services that constitute the bulk of the legal work now done in the West."


Wall street CFA jobs are going to India


HP estimates a Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) or his equivalent (CA or an MBA in finance) with less than five years of experience is paid up to $20,000 per year in India whereas a CFA with similar experience is paid $80,000 in Singapore, $115,000 in Hong Kong, $131,000 in Australia, $170,000 in the US and $217,000 in the UK.



The number of people taking CFA tests in India climbed fivefold since 2002 to 3178 this year, according to the CFA Institute. US candidates fell by about 25 per cent to 30,384.

Mr Patankar, co-founder of New York's Adventity, predicts India will have more than 20,000 analysts in 2011. That would put it ahead of the 15,229 securities analysts working at brokerages and investment banks in the US, according to Thomson Financial. The UK has 1228 analysts

Why India needs to focus on the service economy

Because thats where our main strength is

Infrastructure and manufacturing needs are secondary because all you need is an internet connection to off-shore to India
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Jun 27 2008, 07:08 PM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Jun 27 2008, 07:08 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->GS, Thanks for you insight into the IQ values of the sub-groups of Indian population. Let me relate a personal  anecdote. I took the Mensa test and passed with flying colors but dont feel that I am in that category. It always bothered me that the test appeared easy and yet I dont feel I belong to that category and I really don't. I am average schmoe among my peers in college back home.

If avg values in South India are that high then it explains my rectitude.

When I was in REC, Trichy in 1979, half the students scored above 1250 on the
verbal + math section of GRE
1250 on GRE is Mensa entry level

In your case, just getting admission to a good engineering / science college
due to brutal competition for seats, already puts you way out ahead

When I did my MS in the US, I busted the grading curve
there were 5 WASPs who got 57% to 63% in the MS and I got 98%

High school in India was more difficult than MS in USA
I also discovered recently that Indians are a large fraction of hedge fund managers

Vikram Pandit who took over as CEO of citi is one such guy

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