<!--QuoteBegin-Harshvardan+Feb 25 2008, 10:52 PM-->QUOTE(Harshvardan @ Feb 25 2008, 10:52 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I think this should be seen in an positive way and the inter-faith dialogue that was started between RSS and christain organisations must be restarted and the difference of opinion should be reconciled and our combined energies should redirected towards national development.
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Episcopal Christians apologise to Hindus for discrimination, proselytisation</b>
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/feb/25apology.htm
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->[right][snapback]78978[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Harshvardan, I have several problems with this. In fact, everyone should have.
(1) Episcopalians are not considered christians by many another sect. Just like the other <i>comparatively</i> more tolerant christian sect of Unitarian Universalists. And it's just like the unique pro-abolition Quakers who were predictably never considered christian by other christians anyway.
Example:
http://freetruth.50webs.org/Overview3.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist.
-- Statement made by Pat Robertson (Southern Baptist) on his televised program The 700 Club, January 14, 1991<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(2) It's truly sweet of them to apologise. Christians like apologising. Just like the day the US has finally finished wiping off the native Americans of NA they will apologise for that as well. Just like the Oz minister J Howard recently got the sudden notion to finally apologise to the Australian Aboriginals with some hand-waving about past wrongs and 'never agains'. It's all really sweet.
But nah. Sorry doesn't mean a thing when people have died, and entire civilisations have been destroyed (Greek, Roman, indigenous Australian, various African, native American of N, S, C America) by christianism. The christian gawd is a vengeful one and jeebus invented hell and according to his/their icky book, these poor episcopalians have just bought a one-way ticket to hell for saying sorry about 'converting Hindus' before the conversion process is complete. It's not me who says their hell is beckoning to them for this reason, but their non-existent deity would certainly put them there as per christianism's religious teachings and their babbling book for shirking their christian duty of converting.
If anyone were truly apologetic about the wrongs they inflicted, they would try to set it right. Australia should try to restore Aboriginal religion and culture by spending as much effort and time as it may take. Native Americans should be encouraged to return to their religion, to their past numbers and to their infinitely more advanced society than the more petty American one (for example, native American society was not known to beat children and it had no confusions on gender equality).
Likewise, the Episcopalians making pretty-sounding sermons <i>in America</i> might want to consider stopping their Baptist and Catholic brethren from terrorising Hindus back home <i>in India</i>: NE and Kerala, and TN and Gujarat (where converts had been breaking Hanuman statues of still-Hindus) and everywhere else where christianism has infested in India.
I don't want christians in India to point to some American Episcopalian congregation and say: "Look they apologised, now stop talking about what we have done to Hindus in the NE and your temples in Goa and TN till today"
How is this grand apology going to undo the damage they have done?
(3) Where is the proof that this declaration promises good for us and will deliver?
Christianism is THE religion of back-stabbing, feigned truces ('retreat, turn back and attack'). So too islam, but christianism has repeated their behaviour everywhere and all across history for longer, so we can stop being satisfied with a brief and non-descript concession (which will ultimately mean nothing more than words anyway).
Look what they did to Julian, possibly the only western man who could have stopped christoislamicommunism dead in its tracks. It's an ideology that shouldn't be trusted. Turning one's back on the carnivore just because it tenders an apology for having chewed off your leg spells Fool to me. It says it's sorry. Oh how grand. It realises it has no right to bite and eat ya. How swell.
Over 1.5 millennia of conduct is going to be miraculously changed because one sect - and that too considered heretical and hell-bound by the rest - has seen sense?
(4) Finally, the problem is not solved by one or two or 10 christian sects agreeing that conversion is terrorism. (There are tens of thousands of christian sects, hardly any of which even agree that the others will go to heaven without some serious help/change and none of which appear to agree on how 'salvation' in christianism is achieved. Imagine how they feel about 'heathens'.) Yes, see here:
http://freetruth.50webs.org/C1.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->according to the World Christian Encyclopedia there are <b>over 20,800 Christian denominations</b> [Link]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So pardon me if I don't jump up and down for joy when the marginalized-even-if-numerous Episcopalians happen to finally realise that conversion is terrorism.
The problem is christianism. Even were a few christians or entire sects to realise that conversion is terrorism, it won't matter. Christianism has EVER carried within it the seed of intolerance. It may sleep for now in these particular Episcopalians. But one day the seed will sprout again, as it always has. And there has not been even an instance where the rule (of christianism being terrorism against others) has shown permanent exception.
One may dream of national development. But while there are ideologies bent on world conquest by destruction of others' way of life - our way of life - national development will ever prove elusive.
Nothing less than the following should satisfy/be accepted by Hindus as an apology:
(1) Let the Indian church once and for all relinquish all fables about santa Thomas, jeebus-in-kashmir and similar inventions
(2) Indian churches that are built on Hindu temples should of their own accord give their sites back and help in rebuilding temples on/near the original site on the original temple land
(3) Churches should of their own initiative give back Hindu temple lands that they and their christocolonial bosses confiscated
(4) Every single Indian christian should agree never to perform/support/endorse conversions and they should prove this in practise (even that is a problem: their children may start again when they read the injunction in the babble about "going forth" and terrorising/christianising the heathen nations). I will not say that we may not reconvert: precisely to undo the inherent dangers in future christian generations, we have no choice but to hope for christians and muslims reconverting. If Hindus had converted to Shinto or native American religion, I would not have the slightest problem. But christoislamism is intolerant of others by nature.
(5) Let the church publicly admit to and teach the history of christian slavery; admit and teach of the christian origins of racism, gendercide and gender discrimination, and colonialism, and hence of the marginalisation and exploitation that followed; and of their own hypocritical stand on the caste issue. Let them teach the truths about sati, and other controversial issues like 'caste' even as the British observed it. Let them stop lying about the AIT and the Oryans, but they better NEVER claim that they ever opposed AIT. Only Hindus opposed the AIT. Christians invented it just like they invented similar terrorist lies/stories in Rwanda. They should stop making up and propagating lies like "Tribals are not Hindus". Unconverted Hindus are still Hindus.
Let christians stop trying to hide christian-birthed paedophilia which is evident wherever the christoislamic religion has taken root (there are now even cases in Japanese churches).
(6) Let them teach in their schools about the original temples that stood where the 'old' churches in Palestine are and how those churches were built by destroying the temples. Let them teach in christian schools about what happened to the Greeks and Romans and Europeans at the hands of christianism (for instance the contents at http://www.ysee.gr/index-eng.php?type=en...ovestories ). Let them show what christianism has done to Korea. Let them teach about how they have been going about killing Hindus and other Dharmics in NE, about the temples they destroyed and are still destroying in India.
(7) Let them teach about the latest findings regarding biblical archaeology (no Exodus, no Nazareth in jeebus alleged time) and scholarship (no apostles, bible put together much later and therefore not eye-witness testimony).
(8) Let them add to their bible that the specific statement "thou shalt have no other Gods before me" should be a personal christian belief and not foisted on others. And let them cross out the line pushing them to go forth and teach other nations about jeebus and the babble.
(9) They should not request the slightest monetary or other governmental support on the claim that they are a minority.
(10) They should let go of lying in their schools and media and stop trying to infiltrate their kind into politics in order to force the rest of the country to christianise by lying about Hinduism and pretending christianism is supposedly a positive movement.
(11) Let them stop allying themselves with their ideological selves ('brothers') islam and communism against Hindu Dharma.
<b>ADDED:</b> (12) They should stop all attempts at inculturation. No claiming Hindu and other Dharmic religious culture as some 'psecular' Indian culture. No pottu/bindi, sari, other Hindu dress-items like gollasu (sp?), nosestuds. Absolutely no Dharmic names, they can keep to stolen Roman and Anglisi ones if they wish. (These are all used to trick Hindus into interacting with and even marrying christians; in fact, churches give advice on this dress stuff.) No crypto-christians. No building churches in the style of temples, no aartis, no stealing Pongal and other Hindu festivals and pretending they are cultural. No appropriating Bharatanatyam and Malayali or other Hindu dances; no appropriating Yoga or Kalari or Samskritam/Pali or Ayurveda as if they were some kind of 'psecular' Indian cultural achievements. No appropriating Hindu God names (like Eesan) for jeebus or using Hindu terms to describe christian ideas - use Aramaic or Anglisi or even Latin names for that. Absolutely NONE of this ever again.
As a Hindu, I don't expect others to 'fit in', the way America forces others to 'fit in'. Appropriation is as an act of offense and will be recognised as such.
In fact, like some native American communities, I have come to realise that all christian attempts to take part in our way of life is merely to steal from us to give themselves a false sense of having a culture, or to subvert our traditions if not to gain more sheep outright.
(13) No making comparisons between christian figures and Hindu ones, or christianism and Hindu Dharma. Hindus should absolutely stop this too.
(14) Christians should carry out the above in other non-European countries (partially) converted by christianism like the Phillipines, and in Korea.
(15) Stop stealing others' children.
<b>Forgiveness comes <i>after</i> adequate recompense has been made. Not by mere apologising.</b>
It's beyond unlikely they'll do all this. But if they do and have proven their good intention for a number of consecutive generations (yeah, we're not going to fall for temporary truce), we can <i>consider</i> no longer mentioning jeebus (but if we're forced to, truth should compel us to admit he does not exist as described in the gospels and that there's no evidence that a jeebus of christianism existed). We should never turn our backs on christianism, because it <i>is</i> a mindvirus. What seems dormant today, may be back in full force the next day; in any case, it <i>will</i> return in its natural form eventually. So were we to accept an apology as I've just outlined above, we have to realise it will be eternal vigilance - watch christianism like a hawk and keep educating our own about the published truths concerning christianism, so that we are NEVER taken in again.
I'm being charitable here. There should never be any relapse into considering christianism as being a 'dharmic' religion (induced by a false sense of brotherhood - the stupour we always put ourselves into when it comes to christoislamism). Because it is not a humane, natural tradition like native American religion and India's Dharma-based traditions are. It is a dangerous ideology that would only be allowed if 1-15 above hold because they would then have promised to pull out their own venomous teeth - who knows how long it will keep from regrowing.
Even so, we'll be at the disadvantaged end, having to ever be on our guard. I don't like the arrangement at all - just like I wouldn't accept nazism on <i>any</i> terms - but other Hindus, the goody two-shoes kind, may not mind christianism so much after the necessary changes have been made.
But as I said, this will never happen.
Forgiveness is possible then, yes, but no forgetting. Never that. No self-delusion into trusting christianism ever again. Trust is reserved for those who have earned it. Whereas those who have broken it (and repeatedly so, in the case of christoislamicommunism) never again have the right to ask for it or to get it.
Ever since I read somewhere how often christianism has apologised for terrorism (and invariably keeps terrorising, even if only elsewhere or at some other time) it makes me sick of reading about their 'sorries' altogether. Do forgive me for not getting up to cheer.
<b>ADDED:</b> For those that think me harsh, after seeing images of ancient Korean Buddha vigrahams defaced by christianism and more recently, images of our own temple Vigrahams, I think I'm being rather generous.
Why is it always expected of victims that they accept apologies? Why can't perpetrators learn not to follow their chosen terrorist ideologies - ideologies which have a long track-record of terrorism?
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Episcopal Christians apologise to Hindus for discrimination, proselytisation</b>
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/feb/25apology.htm
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->[right][snapback]78978[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Harshvardan, I have several problems with this. In fact, everyone should have.
(1) Episcopalians are not considered christians by many another sect. Just like the other <i>comparatively</i> more tolerant christian sect of Unitarian Universalists. And it's just like the unique pro-abolition Quakers who were predictably never considered christian by other christians anyway.
Example:
http://freetruth.50webs.org/Overview3.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist.
-- Statement made by Pat Robertson (Southern Baptist) on his televised program The 700 Club, January 14, 1991<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(2) It's truly sweet of them to apologise. Christians like apologising. Just like the day the US has finally finished wiping off the native Americans of NA they will apologise for that as well. Just like the Oz minister J Howard recently got the sudden notion to finally apologise to the Australian Aboriginals with some hand-waving about past wrongs and 'never agains'. It's all really sweet.
But nah. Sorry doesn't mean a thing when people have died, and entire civilisations have been destroyed (Greek, Roman, indigenous Australian, various African, native American of N, S, C America) by christianism. The christian gawd is a vengeful one and jeebus invented hell and according to his/their icky book, these poor episcopalians have just bought a one-way ticket to hell for saying sorry about 'converting Hindus' before the conversion process is complete. It's not me who says their hell is beckoning to them for this reason, but their non-existent deity would certainly put them there as per christianism's religious teachings and their babbling book for shirking their christian duty of converting.
If anyone were truly apologetic about the wrongs they inflicted, they would try to set it right. Australia should try to restore Aboriginal religion and culture by spending as much effort and time as it may take. Native Americans should be encouraged to return to their religion, to their past numbers and to their infinitely more advanced society than the more petty American one (for example, native American society was not known to beat children and it had no confusions on gender equality).
Likewise, the Episcopalians making pretty-sounding sermons <i>in America</i> might want to consider stopping their Baptist and Catholic brethren from terrorising Hindus back home <i>in India</i>: NE and Kerala, and TN and Gujarat (where converts had been breaking Hanuman statues of still-Hindus) and everywhere else where christianism has infested in India.
I don't want christians in India to point to some American Episcopalian congregation and say: "Look they apologised, now stop talking about what we have done to Hindus in the NE and your temples in Goa and TN till today"
How is this grand apology going to undo the damage they have done?
(3) Where is the proof that this declaration promises good for us and will deliver?
Christianism is THE religion of back-stabbing, feigned truces ('retreat, turn back and attack'). So too islam, but christianism has repeated their behaviour everywhere and all across history for longer, so we can stop being satisfied with a brief and non-descript concession (which will ultimately mean nothing more than words anyway).
Look what they did to Julian, possibly the only western man who could have stopped christoislamicommunism dead in its tracks. It's an ideology that shouldn't be trusted. Turning one's back on the carnivore just because it tenders an apology for having chewed off your leg spells Fool to me. It says it's sorry. Oh how grand. It realises it has no right to bite and eat ya. How swell.
Over 1.5 millennia of conduct is going to be miraculously changed because one sect - and that too considered heretical and hell-bound by the rest - has seen sense?
(4) Finally, the problem is not solved by one or two or 10 christian sects agreeing that conversion is terrorism. (There are tens of thousands of christian sects, hardly any of which even agree that the others will go to heaven without some serious help/change and none of which appear to agree on how 'salvation' in christianism is achieved. Imagine how they feel about 'heathens'.) Yes, see here:
http://freetruth.50webs.org/C1.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->according to the World Christian Encyclopedia there are <b>over 20,800 Christian denominations</b> [Link]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So pardon me if I don't jump up and down for joy when the marginalized-even-if-numerous Episcopalians happen to finally realise that conversion is terrorism.
The problem is christianism. Even were a few christians or entire sects to realise that conversion is terrorism, it won't matter. Christianism has EVER carried within it the seed of intolerance. It may sleep for now in these particular Episcopalians. But one day the seed will sprout again, as it always has. And there has not been even an instance where the rule (of christianism being terrorism against others) has shown permanent exception.
One may dream of national development. But while there are ideologies bent on world conquest by destruction of others' way of life - our way of life - national development will ever prove elusive.
Nothing less than the following should satisfy/be accepted by Hindus as an apology:
(1) Let the Indian church once and for all relinquish all fables about santa Thomas, jeebus-in-kashmir and similar inventions
(2) Indian churches that are built on Hindu temples should of their own accord give their sites back and help in rebuilding temples on/near the original site on the original temple land
(3) Churches should of their own initiative give back Hindu temple lands that they and their christocolonial bosses confiscated
(4) Every single Indian christian should agree never to perform/support/endorse conversions and they should prove this in practise (even that is a problem: their children may start again when they read the injunction in the babble about "going forth" and terrorising/christianising the heathen nations). I will not say that we may not reconvert: precisely to undo the inherent dangers in future christian generations, we have no choice but to hope for christians and muslims reconverting. If Hindus had converted to Shinto or native American religion, I would not have the slightest problem. But christoislamism is intolerant of others by nature.
(5) Let the church publicly admit to and teach the history of christian slavery; admit and teach of the christian origins of racism, gendercide and gender discrimination, and colonialism, and hence of the marginalisation and exploitation that followed; and of their own hypocritical stand on the caste issue. Let them teach the truths about sati, and other controversial issues like 'caste' even as the British observed it. Let them stop lying about the AIT and the Oryans, but they better NEVER claim that they ever opposed AIT. Only Hindus opposed the AIT. Christians invented it just like they invented similar terrorist lies/stories in Rwanda. They should stop making up and propagating lies like "Tribals are not Hindus". Unconverted Hindus are still Hindus.
Let christians stop trying to hide christian-birthed paedophilia which is evident wherever the christoislamic religion has taken root (there are now even cases in Japanese churches).
(6) Let them teach in their schools about the original temples that stood where the 'old' churches in Palestine are and how those churches were built by destroying the temples. Let them teach in christian schools about what happened to the Greeks and Romans and Europeans at the hands of christianism (for instance the contents at http://www.ysee.gr/index-eng.php?type=en...ovestories ). Let them show what christianism has done to Korea. Let them teach about how they have been going about killing Hindus and other Dharmics in NE, about the temples they destroyed and are still destroying in India.
(7) Let them teach about the latest findings regarding biblical archaeology (no Exodus, no Nazareth in jeebus alleged time) and scholarship (no apostles, bible put together much later and therefore not eye-witness testimony).
(8) Let them add to their bible that the specific statement "thou shalt have no other Gods before me" should be a personal christian belief and not foisted on others. And let them cross out the line pushing them to go forth and teach other nations about jeebus and the babble.
(9) They should not request the slightest monetary or other governmental support on the claim that they are a minority.
(10) They should let go of lying in their schools and media and stop trying to infiltrate their kind into politics in order to force the rest of the country to christianise by lying about Hinduism and pretending christianism is supposedly a positive movement.
(11) Let them stop allying themselves with their ideological selves ('brothers') islam and communism against Hindu Dharma.
<b>ADDED:</b> (12) They should stop all attempts at inculturation. No claiming Hindu and other Dharmic religious culture as some 'psecular' Indian culture. No pottu/bindi, sari, other Hindu dress-items like gollasu (sp?), nosestuds. Absolutely no Dharmic names, they can keep to stolen Roman and Anglisi ones if they wish. (These are all used to trick Hindus into interacting with and even marrying christians; in fact, churches give advice on this dress stuff.) No crypto-christians. No building churches in the style of temples, no aartis, no stealing Pongal and other Hindu festivals and pretending they are cultural. No appropriating Bharatanatyam and Malayali or other Hindu dances; no appropriating Yoga or Kalari or Samskritam/Pali or Ayurveda as if they were some kind of 'psecular' Indian cultural achievements. No appropriating Hindu God names (like Eesan) for jeebus or using Hindu terms to describe christian ideas - use Aramaic or Anglisi or even Latin names for that. Absolutely NONE of this ever again.
As a Hindu, I don't expect others to 'fit in', the way America forces others to 'fit in'. Appropriation is as an act of offense and will be recognised as such.
In fact, like some native American communities, I have come to realise that all christian attempts to take part in our way of life is merely to steal from us to give themselves a false sense of having a culture, or to subvert our traditions if not to gain more sheep outright.
(13) No making comparisons between christian figures and Hindu ones, or christianism and Hindu Dharma. Hindus should absolutely stop this too.
(14) Christians should carry out the above in other non-European countries (partially) converted by christianism like the Phillipines, and in Korea.
(15) Stop stealing others' children.
<b>Forgiveness comes <i>after</i> adequate recompense has been made. Not by mere apologising.</b>
It's beyond unlikely they'll do all this. But if they do and have proven their good intention for a number of consecutive generations (yeah, we're not going to fall for temporary truce), we can <i>consider</i> no longer mentioning jeebus (but if we're forced to, truth should compel us to admit he does not exist as described in the gospels and that there's no evidence that a jeebus of christianism existed). We should never turn our backs on christianism, because it <i>is</i> a mindvirus. What seems dormant today, may be back in full force the next day; in any case, it <i>will</i> return in its natural form eventually. So were we to accept an apology as I've just outlined above, we have to realise it will be eternal vigilance - watch christianism like a hawk and keep educating our own about the published truths concerning christianism, so that we are NEVER taken in again.
I'm being charitable here. There should never be any relapse into considering christianism as being a 'dharmic' religion (induced by a false sense of brotherhood - the stupour we always put ourselves into when it comes to christoislamism). Because it is not a humane, natural tradition like native American religion and India's Dharma-based traditions are. It is a dangerous ideology that would only be allowed if 1-15 above hold because they would then have promised to pull out their own venomous teeth - who knows how long it will keep from regrowing.
Even so, we'll be at the disadvantaged end, having to ever be on our guard. I don't like the arrangement at all - just like I wouldn't accept nazism on <i>any</i> terms - but other Hindus, the goody two-shoes kind, may not mind christianism so much after the necessary changes have been made.
But as I said, this will never happen.
Forgiveness is possible then, yes, but no forgetting. Never that. No self-delusion into trusting christianism ever again. Trust is reserved for those who have earned it. Whereas those who have broken it (and repeatedly so, in the case of christoislamicommunism) never again have the right to ask for it or to get it.
Ever since I read somewhere how often christianism has apologised for terrorism (and invariably keeps terrorising, even if only elsewhere or at some other time) it makes me sick of reading about their 'sorries' altogether. Do forgive me for not getting up to cheer.
<b>ADDED:</b> For those that think me harsh, after seeing images of ancient Korean Buddha vigrahams defaced by christianism and more recently, images of our own temple Vigrahams, I think I'm being rather generous.
Why is it always expected of victims that they accept apologies? Why can't perpetrators learn not to follow their chosen terrorist ideologies - ideologies which have a long track-record of terrorism?