Progress Of Indic Languages Vs English - 2

[Bharatvarsh]

Harshvardhan but to target you first have to know what these retards are saying, at any rate the above aricle i posted is so crackpot that the only one's who can believe it are either full fledged islamists/commies/psecs/missionaries or braindead fools, anyway i get your point and will minimise posting such trash.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Jan 13 2008, 08:58 PM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Jan 13 2008, 08:58 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Harshvardhan but to target you first have to know what these retards are saying, at any rate the above aricle i posted is so crackpot that the only one's who can believe it are either full fledged islamists/commies/psecs/missionaries or braindead fools, anyway i get your point and will minimise posting such trash.
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Bharatvarsh there are many ignorant people who accept anything written even if the articles quote dubious references. And another reason is if a person not knowning anything about Sanskrit reads such dubious articles then he will certain have a negative attitude towards it for the rest of his life.

BTW Thanks for taking my request into consideration.

[Bodhi]

some more common arabi-farsi words we encounter in Hindi:

arabi-farsi/urdu (english) = hindi

mausam (weather) = ritu
maahaul (surrounding environment) = parivesh
pasand (favourite) = priya
nishan (sign) = chinha
zayaka (taste) = swaad
saaheb/saaheba = mahodaya/mahodayaa (and many more words to suit the context: sriman, mahabhaag... )
jaanwar (animal) = pashu, praaNi
jism/badan (body) = shareer, anga

taadad (population, count) = sankhyaa
zyaadaa (more, quantitative) = adhika, prachur, (many other context sensitive...)
khoob (more, qualitative) = atyant
khoobi (quality) = guNa
tamaam (many) = bahut, bahu-sankhya
tamaam (various) = aneka, vibhinna

[Bharatvarsh]

"chiDiya (bird) = pakshi"

Bodhi I don't think thats farsi or arabic, it always sounded native to me so I went back and checked:

"H चिड़ी ćiṛī [Prk. चडिआ; S. चट+इका], s.f. A hen sparrow; a bird:--ćiṛī-mār, s.m. A bird-catcher, a fowler.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologi....100.199.platts "

pakshi is used in Telugu (but also pitta).

[Bodhi]

Yes you are right. chiDia is native.

[Bharatvarsh]

Does anyone know why in many vernacular languages symbols for stuff like question mark and exclamation etc are "?" and "!" (adopted from the west), did we have our own symbols for these and does sanskrit still use different ones in writing?

I did some googling and what came up was that the symbols are new and sanskrit uses the word "kim" to mark a question.

What about Tamil, did it have them before?

[Shambhu]

Yes, I did not find any quotation marks of question marks in my geeta. Kim etc. is used and questions are understood as questions just by reading the sentence..no need of the superfluous ? mark..

[Bodhi]

Yes Bharatvarsh you are right, as far as classical skt texts go, they never have ? or ! or comma etc. Only | or || are the pUrNa virAma symbols. Indication of comma as the ardha virAma came about in middle ages though I beleive. In one of the traditional style, especially in pkt, and in some texts even of skt and old Hindi, you can also find every word of a sentance joined together on a single horizontal bar without any gap or space in between the words. So the reader must identify when one word ends and the next starts. But then those texts were intended for them who had orally learnt the text by heart, and written text was only supporting/secondary. (Why was it done? I think because it made it very hard to make forgeries and fraudulant copies. One mistake and the whole text is spoilt. But I may be wrong here.)

[Bodhi]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Govt to replace tough Urdu words with English, Hindi</b>

New Delhi, January 16: Urdu learners can now heave a sigh of relief as the Union Govt has decided to replace difficult words in the language with simplified terms.
Just <b>ahead of the annual review of National Monitoring Committee on Minority Education</b>, the government on Monday asked National Council of Education Research and Technology (NCERT) to revise its Urdu Syllabus for schools.

"The words like <b>'thermometer' in Urdu is Ala-e-paimaieshe-hararat</b> even difficult for a Urdu speaker to decipher. Therefore the ministry has decided to revise the course with more simplified version. The words will be replaced with some commonly used English and Hindi words," said a highly placed official in the Ministry.

Similarly, the Ministry identified words like <b>Surgeon which is 'Mahir-e-Zarahat' and military science or 'Ilim-e-Zarab'</b>. These words are difficult for a common Urdu speaker and needs to be replaced with commonly used words, the official said.

The Ministry has gone through the entire syllabus and reached to a conclusion that there are some words that are not in use by the regular Urdu speakers.

"Languages do get influenced by the culture and environment. Urdu has many Persian words and similarly Hindi speaking people use certain Urdu words frequently during their conversation. So, if we will incorporate the simplified and commonly used words that will further popularise the language," said a senior official in the Ministry.

Sources in the ministry claimed that certain words are even difficult for people who are even friendly with the language.

The Ministry has also taken a note on the fact that the books of Urdu syllabus are not available in the market and pulled up the authorities for the delay.

The Ministry wants Urdu to become a part of mainstream. Words that are difficult to understand will distract people further and may prove a deterrent for the learners, the official said.

"Syllabus is not for the seasoned Urdu speakers, it is designed for the learners who are young and get little atmosphere unlike past to understand the words those are not used much these days. So, we want them to offer it with the meaning and simplify a bit so that it can be more popular," Ministry sources said.

"The Ministry has communicated about the problem and given them (NCERT) examples also. Now they have to ensure that the students get the revised syllabus," said a highly placed source in the Ministry.

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/bG...Hindi-b/262121/<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Instead of bringing Urdu to mainstream, bring those illiterates to already-mainstream languages. Urdu = IM language? That itself is a myth. More IMs know other languages than they know Urdu today.

[Bodhi]

and good/bad news. Good because at least a Hindi (and other languages in future) business paper now. Bad, because TV18 is the parent company of CNN-IBN group. Jagran should not be shedding its clear and traditionalist nationalist outlook in search for JVs.

I hope they will also promote a good quality Hindi.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Network18, India’s leading media conglomerate and Jagran Prakashan (JPL), one of India’s most acclaimed print majors & publisher of India’s largest read daily ‘Dainik Jagran’ have announced a 50:50 joint venture initiative in the business print space. The primary mandate of this JV will be <b>to launch a Hindi business daily for the Indian market in 2008. Subsequently, this will be followed by other Indian language dailies focused on financial and economic news</b>

This JV will in effect create a new category of <b>local language business dailies within the India print space, as this will be the first Hindi business paper to hit the market nationally</b>. This venture also marks an expansion of print offerings from Network18 into the dailies space, post the recent announcement of its magazine publishing arrangement with Forbes media and ownership control of Infomedia, India’s leading publishers in the B2B media space. This venture is also a reiteration of JPL’s intent and commitment to provide its readers news and information in all genres.

The venture has been positioned to benefit from the respective competencies of TV18 & Jagran Prakashan. Television Eighteen (TV18) is a recognized leader in the business media space, with a roster of brands across television, online and information terminal platforms such as CNBC-TV18 & CNBC AWAAZ which are India’s leading business channels, Moneycontrol.com which is India’s No.1 financial news & information portal and Newswire18, India’s leading real time news & data platform.Jagran Prakashan Limited publishes “Dainik Jagran”,India’s largest read daily besides recently launched youth oriented compacts “I-Next” and “City Plus”.

http://www.medianewsline.com/news/117/ARTI...2007-12-20.html
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[Guest]

This is likely to be the fate of Telugu and some other Indian languages, if we are not careful enough to teach them to our children. The last of Nepal's Dura speakers.

[Bharatvarsh]

http://www.engr.mun.ca/~adluri/telugu/

[dhu]

Sanskrit spoken in village

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMWostFwwJc

[Bharatvarsh]

Website on Viswanatha Satyanarayana:

http://www.vishwanathasahityapeetham.com/

http://www.vishwanathasahityapeetham.com...rature.asp

By the way has anyone noticed the trend, "Hindi" movies no longer have their titles in Devnagari but solely in the Roman script, as an example:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uOItf5GKhhU

Ok let us assume that Roman script is needed because of the NRI base and non Hindi speakers, but why can't they have them in both scripts, one at the top right hand corner, other at bottom left hand corner.

And then these clowns claim to be the "Hindi" film industry.

[Bharatvarsh]

I was going through "Siva Chhatrapati" by Surendranath Sen, at the end he discusses Persian influence on Marathi.

According to him, at Shivajis birth (1627 or 1629) the language used in Marathi letters was highly persianised, in one of his letters Shivaji himself was supposed to have used at least 31 Farsi words, but all this began to change under his reign and there was a concious effort to replace Persian words with Sanskrit alternatives. To this effect he quotes Mr. Rajwade who collected stats regarding this showing:



Date of letters  Persian word  Marathi  Total  Percentage of Marathi words
1628                202               34         236               14.4

1677                51                 84         135               62.2

1728                8                   119       127               96.3



So when commies and assorted idiots claim that the Shudh Hindi movement or Sanskritisation of other languages is a modern "communal" phenomenon they are lying through their teeth.

Shivaji specifically had a dictionary prepared to replace Persian terms with Sanskrit in his administration called Rajavyavaharkosha.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Dakhani language then became an aspect of a dominant urban elite, and was perceived as such. Thus the famous Marathi  bhakta poet, Tukaram, in depicting the modern age of decay (kaliyuga), points to the use of avindhavani – “the speech of those who have unpierced ears,” i.e., Muslims – by even Brahmans as one of its features.25 In the 1650s, Jayarama Pindye claimed to compose freely in twelve languages including daksinatya yavani.26 Yavana was by then a common term for Muslim, and Jayarama clearly recognized that the southern or daksinatya yavanas had a language distinct from Persian, which he simply termed yavani.
The Dakhani language thus became expressive of a regional religious identity. The sixteenth-century bhakta poet Eknath’s “Hindu-Turk samvad” illustrates among other things the power-relation involved. The “Turk” is actually a Muslim who gets into a wrangle with a Brah-man. The Muslim speaks something close to Dakhani with many Arabic loan-words, while the Brahman does not choose to display his knowledge of Sanskrit al-though he quotes a Sanskrit sloka). He uses a Marathi very close to Eknath’s own but shares significant vo-cabulary with his antagonist. For example, after the “Turk” has used the Bali-Vamana legend to attack Hindu belief, the Brahman replies, “Bali khudaca khasa banda” (Bali was a favored slave of the Lord). The case-marker is Marathi but three out of four words are Per-sian. He then goes on to assimilate the story of Adam and Eve with that of Rama and Sita, Ravana being iden-tified with Satan.27

So Dakhani, like Urdu in north India, was a language of the urban centers and the elite. It was perhaps an er-rant aspiration to urbanity that led Tukaram’s sinful kali-yugina Brahman to pop a pan-vida into his mouth and then use avindha speech.28

http://cssaame.com/issues/24_2/guha.doc<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Languages were marked by a tension between hybridiza-tion and identity. The resulting mixed idiom, with an interesting infusion of Sanskrit tatsamas (loan words) is found, for example, in Sivaji's letter to Dadaji Naras Prabhu, deshpande of the Rohida valley, where the major appeal is to a territorial rootedness in the valley as well as putative wider subcontinental identity (again, Perso-Arabic is highlighted):
shahasi bemangiri tumhi va amhi karit nahi Srirohides-vara tumce khoriyatil adi kuladeva tumca dongarmatha patharavar sendrilagat svayambhu ahe tyani amhas yas dilhe va pudhe sarva manoratha Hindvi svarajya karun puravinar ahe tyas bavas haval hou naye khamakha sangava.33
[You and I are not being disloyal to the Shah. Sriro-hidesvara, the original presiding deity of your valley, exists in self-created form next to the sendri tree on the plateau at the crest of your mountain: he has given me success and will in future fulfill the desire of creating a Hindavi kingdom. So say to the Bava (ad-dressee's father): “Do not be unnecessarily down-cast.”]
But while such local knowledge and identity could be valuable to the head of a small principality, a subconti-nental imperial system could benefit from a high lan-guage that favored no specific ethnicity – the role played by Persian in the Mughal Empire. In later years, Sivaji and his son and successor Sambhaji seem to have con-sidered the possibility of Sanskrit playing such a role. Thus the Rajavyavaharakosa – a thesaurus of official us-age – was prepared shortly after Sivaji's coronation as Chatrapati. This has sometimes been presented as an effort at the triumphant return of Sanskrit with the end of Muslim rule. S. B. Varnekar, for example, claims that the author was commissioned to write this text in order to save the language of the gods (devabhasa).34 The text itself is much more modest: “Having completely up-rooted the barbarians (mleccha), by the best of kings a learned man was appointed ... to replace the overvalued Yavana words (atyartham yavanavacanair) with educated speech (vibudhabhasam).”35 There is, for a period, a sig-nificant change in register in official documents, with a new prominence given to Sanskritic terminology, even though Marathi remained the official language. I shall return to this theme later in this essay.

http://cssaame.com/issues/24_2/guha.doc<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Bodhi]

In fact, the effort of (re-)creating the native dictionary and language for administration was only a revival to undo the imposed foreignization that had begun a century back by the cunning colonizer Jalal-ud-deen Akbar.

Up until the time of Akbar, even the Islami sultanate used to use "Hindavi" (their term) as the language of administration - revenue, accounting, general management etc. Only military terminology was having Arabic-Turkic-Farsi influence, and also the coinage.

Akbar began the initiative of Persianizing the whole administration. He firmly began the efforts of affecting Farsi as the language of elite and literature as well.

Some insights come from the records of the "Munshi-s" - the Hindu administrators -of Khatri and Kayastha jati, who were still employed by all Islami kingdoms due to their efficiency.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Akbar was the first of the Indo-Islamic kings of northern India
formally to declare Persian the language of administration
at all levels, which had not been the case under
the Afghan sultans. The proclamation to this effect was
apparently issued by his famous Khatri revenue minister,
Todar Mal. It was accompanied by a reorganization of
the revenue department as well as the other administrative
departments by the equally famous Iranian noble
Mir Fath-Allah Shirazi. An eighteenth-century historian,
Ghulam Husain Taba’taba’i, remembered and recorded
this change thus: “Earlier in India the government accounts
were written in Hindavi according to the Hindu
rule. Raja Todar Mal acquired new regulations [zavabit]
from the scribes [navisindagan] of Iran, and the government
offices then were reorganized as they were there in
vilayat [Iran].”

Persian was thereafter on the ascendant, and it was
not simply the royal household and the court which
came to bear the Iranian impress. As mutasaddis and minor
functionaries, Iranians could be seen everywhere in
government offices, even though they were not in exclusive
control of these positions.

A substantial part of the administration was still carried out by
members of the indigenous Hindu communities who had
hitherto worked in Hindavi: importantly, these communities
soon learned Persian and joined the Iranians as clerks,
scribes, and secretaries (muharrirs and munshis). Their
achievements in the new language were soon recognized
as extraordinary. To this development, Akbar’s reform
in the prevailing madrasah education – again planned and
executed by the Iranian Mir Fath-Allah Shirazi – contributed
considerably. Hindus had already begun to learn
Persian in Sikandar Lodi’s time, and ‘Abdul Qadir Badayuni
even mentions a Brahman who taught Arabic and
Persian in this period. Akbar’s enlightened policy and
the introduction of secular themes in the syllabi at middle
levels had stimulated a wide interest in Persian
studies. Hindus - Kayasthas and Khatris in particular - joined
madrasahs in large numbers to acquire excellence
in Persian language and literature, which now
promised a good career in the imperial service.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The masters of the Iranian classics obviously
found an appreciative audience even among the middleorder
literati in big and small towns, as well among village-
based revenue officials and other hereditary functionaries
and intermediaries. All Mughal government
papers, from imperial orders (farmans) to bonds and acceptance
letters (muchalkah, tamassuk qabuliyat) that a vil
village intermediary (chaudhuri) wrote were in Persian.
Likewise, there was no bookseller in the bazaars and
streets of Agra, Delhi, and Lahore who did not sell
manuscript anthologies of Persian poetry. Madrasah pupils
were in general familiar with the Persian classics,
and Persian had practically become the first language of
culture in north India.

Those steeped in Persian appropriated
and used Perso-Islamic expressions such as
Bismillah (in the name of Allah), lab-bagur (at the door of
the grave), and ba jahannam rasid (damned in hell) just as
often as their Iranian and non-Iranian Muslim counterparts
did. They would also look for, and appreciate, Persian
renderings of local texts and traditions.

Indeed, many Hindu scriptures and other Indic texts were rendered
into Persian, and these too joined the cultural accessories
of the typical Kayastha or Khatri.20 While we
cannot present a detailed analysis of each of these texts,
at least some of these translations clearly enjoyed circulation
outside the relatively rarefied milieu of the court.

The Making of a Munshi
MUZAFFAR ALAM & SANJAY SUBRAHMANYAM
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[Guest]

I need some kind of ruling. One of my friends corrected another friend when he pronounced the word "satyam" as "sachyam". The guy's, who was corrected , mother tongue is telugu. My position was that some folks from Andhra have the practice of such pronunciation, and one can not say it is wrong.

What do the gurus here feel about such pronunciation differences? My friend who corrected feels that there are two issues involved: one that it was wrong and the other being the acceptability of the practice. So he contends it might be acceptable for some folks, but it is still a wrong pronunciation.

My stance is, since it is not one or two folks who have this practice, and there are lots of people with such substitution in every language one can not necessarily rule this as being right or wrong.

And any added history and etymology of the substituting of 'ch' for the 't' is welcome.

thanks.

[Bodhi]

tya being replaced by 'cha' or 'ta' is a common and widespread practice, not only in Telugu but also in Hindi. This very word - 'satya' becomes 'sach' in Hindi too.

likewise many other sounds of sanskrit have been moulded into different adjustments in vernacular languages. 'rya' becoming 'yya', 'ya' becoming 'ja', and so on...

what is 'wrong' in sach or sachyamu? such derivations are known as 'tadbhava' as opposed to the original 'tatsama'. Both tadbhava and tatsama are useful.

[Guest]

In Hindi it is written and said as "sach". So the evolution from "sath" to "sach" is one facet of the matter. In telugu how is it written, and is it sounded differently from what is written? And why only some have the pronunciation I mentioned?

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In Hindi it is written and said as "sach". So the evolution from "sath" to "sach" is one facet of the matter. In telugu how is it written, and is it sounded differently from what is written? And why only some have the pronunciation I mentioned? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In Telugu, it is not written "sachyam" only as "satyam", only some say "sachyam" most pronounce it as "satyam".

But in writing I have never seen "sachyam", as for write or wrong, i don't think there is such a thing although these so called Telugu teachers will mark you wrong if you write it as "sachyam", all languages have tadbhavas, Tamizh has many in particular.

Another example of this strange difference between written and spoken Telugu is the word "artham" for meaning, it's always written as that but most Telugu speakers pronounce it as "ardham".

Telugu also lacks a letter that Sanskrit has, i don't know how to put it in Roman script, so that is why shatru in Sanskrit becomes setruvu (enemy) and shava becomes sevam (deadbody).