Christian Subversion And Missionary Activities - 3

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Pastors 'Indecent Proposals' - Church stormed in TN</b>
10/16/2007 3:12:49 AM  HK
Tanjavur: Home grown or International pastors share a Common Trait – A trait of illegitimate relationship is that common factor. 

<b>A group of women here stormed the ‘’Punitha Lurdhu’ church for giving refuge to a womanizer Pastor. Mass petition is submitted to Police against the immoral activities of Father Vincent Sebastian (51) of Don Bosco , Trichy in Tanjavur </b>

He is accused of attempt of Molesting and using Vulgar abuses to women who attend a self help group. This Self Help group recruits local women by Pastors Association and Kaveri Charitable organization, with the ulterior motive of conversion. He is also accussed to have relationship with one of the member Anthoniamma 31.

Agitated public and women activists stormed the church on Sunday. The church was closed down. Having seen the crowd Vincent escaped. Now Thanjavur university police registered a case against the pervert Pastor.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

Mudy, at minimum it's a case of false advertising - and being going on for over 200 years now. There are churchs even today in India where there are separate communion rails for recent Dalit Christians. Separate Communion cups. Separate burial grounds.

Current Evidence of Caste Discrimination in Chruch
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->That is why <b>75% of the clergy and religious in the Catholic church come from that 20% of the  catholic population who are of the upper caste</b>.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->60 kilometers from Madras, has a Catholic population of 2500.     Of these, 1500 are Dalit Catholics.  The rest of the catholic population belong to the Reddy and the Naidu upper caste. <b>For the past 200 years, these upper caste Christians have oppressed the Dalit Christians by not giving them their due place in the Church and in the graveyard.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

from same site
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> In India, there are <b>156 bishops in the Catholic church which has a population of 25 million.  Except 6 bishops, the rest of them are coming from the upper caste community. Even these six bishops were appointed very recently by Vatican through the pressure given by 20 million dalit Christians</b> of India who form 75% of the total Catholic population. Yet in the Indian catholic church, both in the  hierarchy and in the structure, dalit Christians have no place at all. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->For example,  even today, <b>inter-caste marriage is difficult if not impossible in the Indian churches.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In Goa, for example, there are <b>upper caste Catholic Brahmins who do not marry Christians belonging to the lower castes</b>. In many churches, the <b>low caste Christians have to sit apart from the high caste Christians.</b> In Andhra Pradesh, there are Christian Dalit, Christian Malas, Christian Reddys, Christian Kammas, etc. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Down the decades, discriminations on the basis of caste like <b>separate feasts, separate Thumba, separate cemeteries, and separate places in the church - have been in practice</b>. The Church that should have been the first to break this kind of discriminations has encouraged such violations of human dignity by mere indifference. <b>Even in the rectory the Dalits have to stand and talk (or they have to sit apart) while the others could sit and talk to the priest.</b> The Dalit Christians have to meekly yield to such discriminations because they are numerically few, economically poor and politically powerless.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Oct 16 2007, 11:14 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Oct 16 2007, 11:14 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->So what is wrong if somebody preaches and offers material benefits and in exchange people convert to the religion? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They change demography and influence politics, life of other people. Its like, whats wrong renting a room to a whore in a house, she/he will be minding his/her own business and making living like others. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup change in demography is a given. So the argument is that the other people do not like the conversion. Likes and dislikes is that a strong argument?

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Convertion is not for religious purpose, it is for influence and influence of outsider in your daily life, which include festivals, how you behave, think and how you die and how your last rites are performed. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a person willingly coverts then he is aware and accepts the new way of life - festivals, death ceremonies and every day life. So how is that an issue?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If a person willingly coverts then he is aware and accepts the new way of life - festivals, death ceremonies and every day life. So how is that an issue?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Technically, there's no issue if the person who's converted has no issue. I don't see anyone hassling an ordinary citizen praying or practising faith or religion of his choice.

The issue's because of the fact most missionaries lie about their means and techinques.

You'll have to read some earlier versions of this threads, works on Swami Vivekananada, MK Gandhi on this topic and even say Neogi committee report to get started on this topic. Even Arun Shourie's book on Missionaries throws light in their dark deeds.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If a person willingly coverts then he is aware and accepts the new way of life - festivals, death ceremonies and every day life. So how is that an issue? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem starts when they invade my home, forcefully, and issues starts, why they want to force there way of life on me. Why they come and tries to make my next door neighbor morally corrupt by giving them money and false promises and prepare him/her to invade my home. I give a damn, if they go and invade your home, but it will be okay till they keep their nefarious act to your home and stop there.
I want to protect my way of life. Others can keep there way of life to themselves. This is also call communal.

[Guest]

So the issue is about lying about means and techniques, and not about the actual conversion.
Again why should we have an issue, if the converted does not have an issue - in spite of the lying and what not.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Oct 16 2007, 11:55 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Oct 16 2007, 11:55 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Problem starts when they invade my home, forcefully, and issues starts, why they want to force there way of life on me. Why they come and tries to make my next door neighbor morally corrupt by giving them money and false promises and prepare him/her to invade my home. I give a damn, if they go and invade your home, but it will be okay till they keep their nefarious act to your home and stop there.
I want to protect my way of life. Others can keep there way of life to themselves. This is also call communal.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So you would be fine, if their act stops at your neighbour's door and do not intrude into your house; as long as the new convert does not force to change your way of life. Moral corruption is relative. If the new convert who was converted after false promises leads a n universally accepted standard of civilized behavior and conducts himself well you should be fine, right?

[Guest]

SwamyG,
read and think carefully.
Everything in this world is <i>relative</i>.

[Guest]

Please help me think better by placing more (better) points.
Yeah, everything is relative. But what is your point?

[Guest]

SwamyG:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Again why should we have an issue, if the converted does not have an issue - in spite of the lying and what not.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know who's "WE" since I've been clear in my earlier post: <b>there's no issue if the person who's converted has no issue.</b>

And no one-liners please. I trust you can scroll back to prior pages/version of this thread or read some works that's been recommended in my earlier post.
Last post on this - for now.

[Guest]

'We' - I used it generally to mean. I am asking questions, and there is no question of it be one-liner. Yes I have read some of the material available on the internet (not all).

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-SwamyG+Oct 17 2007, 01:31 AM-->QUOTE(SwamyG @ Oct 17 2007, 01:31 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->So the issue is about lying about means and techniques, and not about the actual conversion.
Again why should we have an issue, if the converted does not have an issue - in spite of the lying and what not.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Depends on who the "we" is. As a Hindu, I am not neutral to another person's choice of religion. I am a partisan. So if, within the bounds of my knowledge, one person is seeking to convert another out of Hinduism, I most certainly will have issues with that. I consider their religions false and in many ways primitive and narrow-minded.

I think there is some confusion between the role we play as citizens of a nation-state, and the role we play as members of a religious community.

[Guest]

The problem with conversion to christoislamism is that <b>christoislamism is terrorism</b>. It's an ideology that is both detrimental to the converted and to the unconverted. (I trust you will not ask why conversion to terrorism is a bad thing.)
But that's all there really is to it. Intolerant ideologies - and that includes communism - are a problem <i>because</i> they are intolerant. *And* they missionize, so the intolerance spreads and becomes a *bigger* problem.

Any small but significant-sized christian/islamic population causes misery and grief for the surrounding unconverted community and even an entire nation.
Next to antagonizing the local faiths and subtly identifiying/allying with other countries due to their "shared" christoislamicommunism, there's also full-blown treachery: converted are often ready to sell the indigenous faith out by appealing to foreign invaders. Such behaviour is seen all the way from christians in non-christian Ancient Rome to Dinesh D'Souza. (Yes, the same D'Souza who also wrote "Two Cheers for Colonialism")

Then there's the fact that any christian minority, when given the opportunity, grows to reach the "minority" threshold from where they can terrorise the rest of the population. From there on things spiral out of control into "Nagaland-for-chwist".
Also, christians when in strategic numbers can and are used by other countries to vote certain parties into power: christoparties who continue to terrorise the locals for christian reasons and who side with said foreign countries out of christian allegiance (although they are merely being used by foreign governments, the two still collude/they're scratching each other's backs).

I've not even mentioned the gigantic topic of complete erosion of the infected country's religion and heritage by christoislamicommunism. Once the pre-existing way of life is gone, it's gone for good.

[Shambhu]

Absolutely. Slavery, inquisitions, colonialization, systematic destruction of cultures, turning brother against brother (following the New Testament rules)..all this has followed wherever Titus Worshippers Inc. and Titus Supporters (TWITS), --who have no idea about anything divine--- went..

BTW Condi Rice went into the Grotto of the Nativity, Door of Humility and what not. This daughter of poor black people who were so mercilessly whipped in the name of "Christ" was all emotional and said it was great to see where "Jesus" was born, "my personal saviour". Beyond Ironic.. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rolleyes.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rolleyes.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rolleyes.gif' /><!--endemo-->

[Guest]

63 priests in Kerala face criminal charges

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Offences include murder, rape, molestation, assault, abduction, theft and cheating

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: Forget the sheep, the Church has a tough task ahead in reclaiming its lost shepherds. If the data released by the Kerala Police is any indication, the weeds have spread among the wheat.

As many as 63 Christian priests in the state face criminal charges pending against them, reveals documents yielded as per the Right to Information Act.

Murder, attempt to murder, rape, molestation, assault, abduction, theft, break-in, cheating…almost every offence under the Indian Penal Code —and of course, the Ten Commandments — has been committed by the deviant priests. Worse, the biblical whitewashed tombs are still at the helm of affairs in parishes.

Going by the crime records of the past seven years, two priests have been accused of murder while ten are charged with attempt to murder. Yet another is booked for aiding in a murder. Joseph Antony and Maria Lal Manjali are accused of homicide.

Babu Chirakkavur, Mathew Jacob, ET Johnson, KP Mathai, Joy T Varghese, Jiju Varghese, Reji are accused of attempt to murder in cases registered in different police stations. Giving them company is Paul Payyappilly, parish priest of Pavaratti St Joseph's Church, held under Explosives Act.

Priests also excel in crimes of passion. Five of them are rape accused. Jose Thadathil and TJ Joy, a CSI parish priest, are just two. Jose works in the Divine Retreat Centre, a pilgrim centre near Thrissur facing criminal inquiry ordered by the Kerala High Court. Sisters Viola and Nirmala are also involved in the case.

Father Joseph in Kollam is caught in an immoral traffic case. Ernakulam Infant Jesus Church vicar Thomas is an accused in a molestation case while Father Paul Vilangumpara is accused of molestation and abduction.

Yet another priest in coastal Thiruvananthapuram is accused of rape. Most of the priests have incurred cheating charges against them as part of their managerial functions.

Thomas Pothanamuzhi, Fr Thomas Kizhakkedath and Fr Ouseph — the principal, manager and former principal of St Aloysius College, Edathuva — have been accused of breach of trust.

A similar case has been charged in 2005 against  Andrews Thekkekkandam, a vicar in Thamarasseri, the nerve centre of the Catholic Church's present tirade against the Left government.

As many as five priests are accused of theft and break-in, taking the total number of the seeds on rocky ground to 63. This list excludes the suspects in the sensational murder of a nun in Kottayam in 1992.

Earlier, the CBI had taken two priests and two nuns to undergo truth serum tests in connection with the death of Sister Abhaya, who was found dead in a well on the premises of Pius X Convent, Kottayam.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, does George Slobo Raju - the 'distinguished scholar' from some community college in massa land know about this?

[Guest]

Viren, a couple(?) of days back, came across these headlines in msn.in:
- 'Stop Iran or get set for WW III' (- with Bush Jr's picture next to it)
- Mumbai archbishop made cardinal
The second one is confirmed if you Google
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/18/wcardinals118.xml
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Archbishop of Mumbai, Oswald Gracias, was made a cardinal. Mgr Gracias, 62, has had a rapid rise through the Catholic hierarchy and has worked for long enough in Rome to be an outside bet for the next pope.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Eeewww. Can't think of a catholic priest without my skin crawling. This guy is from Mumbai, but are they so different from those in Kerala???? Especially when the roly-poly padres in other countries are all the same anyway?

Scariest thing is that now some Indian priesty has been made a cardinal, they'll probably get more moolah and henchmen to terrorise further in India. "Onward christian soldiers".
news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/India/20071018/796904.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->India
<b>Vatican appoints Mumbai archbishop as cardinal</b>
Mumbai | October 18, 2007 12:05:06 PM IST

<b>The Archbishop of Mumbai Oswald Gracias, head of the almost 600,000-strong Catholic community in the city</b>, has been appointed a cardinal by the Vatican, <b>the only Asian in the latest list announced in Rome. </b>

Gracias, 62, will be ordained into the prestigious College of Cardinals, which elects the Pope, at a special ceremony in Rome on Nov 24.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

www.assistnews.net/Stories/2007/s07100173.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Friday, October 19, 2007
<b>Church Leaders, Lay People Congratulate India’s New Cardinal</b>

By James Varghese
Special to ASSIST News Service
[...]

Divine Word Father, Babu Joseph, spokesperson of the Catholic Bishops' Conference of India, said the <b>local Church is “extremely glad” it has one more person who can represent “us in the Vatican,” making the Indian Church's concerns and needs known more clearly.</b>

Father Dominic Emmanuel, Delhi archdiocese spokesperson, noted that <b>for 50 years, all Bombay archbishops have been made cardinals.</b> The Divine Word priest said Cardinal-elect Gracias' work with bishops' forums and his time as archbishop of Agra, the “mother diocese” of northern India, have provided him valuable experience.

<b>“He is familiar with problems and concerns the Church faces in northern India,” which “he will be able to convey to the Vatican.”</b> Father Emmanuel also said the prelate has been vocal about government policies affecting the poor, and now his voice will be more audible through media.
(Talking about reservations for 'christian dalits'?)

[...]
His elevation comes just 10 years after he was ordained auxiliary bishop of Bombay. “It is all the work of God. For me it is not a position of honor, but a widening of responsibilities to serve the Church,” he told UCA News soon after the announcement.

He will be the fourth cardinal-archbishop of Bombay, the Indian Church territory with the most Catholics. It is based in <b>Mumbai, formerly Bombay, a Catholic stronghold and India's business capital, 1,410 kilometers southwest of New Delhi.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Do Catholics already consider Mumbai their stronghold? I figured there were more Hindus than Christians in Mumbai. But oh, I forget, a Hindu life is worth 0.00000000001 that of a christian. If worth anything at all.


Last year a different special honour was conferred to another catholic in India:
timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1540042.cms
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Mumbai archbishop to head Vatican body
21 May 2006, 0007 hrs IST,TNN
Print  Save  EMail  Write to Editor

MUMBAI: <b>Archbishop of Mumbai, Cardinal Ivan Dias, has been appointed Prefect of the Congregation of the Evangelisation of the Peoples at the Vatican</b>. Cardinal Dias was one of the contenders for the pope's position after John Paul II died last year.

The new appointment has catapulted Cardinal Dias to what is considered one of the top positions in the Vatican with a responsibility extending worldwide.

He will continue as administrator of the archdiocese of Mumbai until he leaves to take over his responsibilities at the Vatican.

Born in Bandra, Cardinal Dias, 70, was ordained a priest in 1958 and has held several senior diplomatic positions for the Vatican over the last 33 years, the first being the secretary of the Apostolic Nunciatures in Scandinavian and Nordic countries, Indonesia and Madagascar.

He also worked as chief of desk in the Vatican for many countries in Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia and was a papal representative in Ghana, Togo, Benin, South Korea and Albania. He was appointed archbishop of Mumbai in 1996 and made a cardinal by Pope John Paul II in 2001.

<b>The Congregation for the Evangelisation of Peoples, founded in 1622, is the Vatican's department entrusted with the coordination of programmes aimed at spreading the gospel in territories where Christianity is still young.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->All this is not harmless.
When Korea was about to be aggressively colonised, the Pope visited it and gave it the second (?) largest number of saints ever. Overnight.
Meanwhile we have someone heading the 'Evangelisation of Peoples' seat.

[Guest]

And here you go, more on the newly-made Indian cardinal:
mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=broadcast&broadcastid=55745
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Cardinal Gracias is known for this untiring defence of human rights and is not afraid to take on political power-that-be. When India's social, ethnic and religious tensions threatened internal harmony, the prelate openly called on the government to protect the weak and guarantee their development in order to build a just and modern society. <b>Obviously his most heart-felt battle involves religious freedom in a country like today's India that is increasingly intolerant vis-à-vis non Hindus.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh, and this gem:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Known as a tireless servant of truth, justice, freedom and love, <b>Cardinal Gracias is inspired by two important figures of missionary Catholicism</b>: Mother Teresa of Kolkata and <b>Saint Francis Xavier</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Terrorist.

There's a naive Hindu commenting on that page. Represents the average Hindu who is totally clueless about the jaws closing in around him/her. How can the gap, between what the average Hindu currently perceives/understands/realises and what the christoislamicommunists intend, be bridged?

[Guest]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=H2ZOETDNVPSP5QFIQMGCFF4AVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2007/02/24/wpope24.xml
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Pope is victor as Prodi drops gay marriage law</b>
By Malcolm Moore in Rome
Last Updated: 12:29am GMT 25/02/2007

The Pope emerged as the clear winner in Italy's political crisis yesterday after Romano Prodi was forced to abandon his plans to legalise gay marriage in order to shore up his fragile support.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Mr Prodi is also trying to lure members of the Union of Christian Democrats, who currently form the Opposition, into his government. "I am seeking more votes. I intend to fight on, but I need to have the strength," Mr Prodi told his allies.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>However, the abandonment of the proposed law was widely criticised and described as evidence of the Vatican's continuing influence on Italy's domestic politics.

It was feeding conspiracy theories that the Holy See had engineered the government's collapse, after warning it for several weeks about the consequences of pushing ahead with the legislation.</b>

There seemed to be satisfaction in the Holy See that the government's collapse would result in the death of the civil union law.

"The fall of the government was unexpected, but it was predictable, in fact very predictable," an anonymous senior prelate told the newspaper Il Giornale. "After what happened, I can assure you that no one here shed a tear.

<b>"It was a gift, arriving just at the beginning of Lent," he said.</b>

However, he denied that the Vatican had been involved in the realpolitik that led to the government's downfall.

"The people who are screaming about a Vatican plot should look to their own houses, because there has been no trap ordered from this side of the Tiber," he said.

When questioned on the subject, the Pope also denied that the Vatican was a "centre of power".

In a meeting with several parish priests to celebrate Lent, he said that it was <b>"very important that people do not see the Church as a super-national organisation.</b> It is not an administrative body, or a body of power". He then joked: "I like to sleep at night."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->As in: church finds it important that it is not publicly <i>perceived</i> as a powerful organisation that has string-pulling power.
Cath Church is an ogre claiming to be a kitten instead. Oh, yes, do believe it.

While cath church is in denying/lying mode, about a year back in Slovakia:
www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,,1707579,00.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Vatican abortion treaty brings down government</b>
Saturday February 11, 2006<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

And the inevitable has eventually come:
Dinesh D'Sauce has come out with a book called "What's so great about christianity". Tadaaa.

From his web site:
www.dineshdsouza.com/
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->WHAT OTHERS ARE SAYING ABOUT
WHAT'S SO GREAT ABOUT CHRISTIANITY

“Responding to the current epidemic of atheist manifestos, Dinesh D’Souza applies just the right balm for the troubled soul. Assembling arguments from history, philosophy, theology, and science—yes, science!—he builds a modern and compelling case for faith in a loving God. If you’re seeking the truth about God, the universe, and the meaning of life, this is a great place to look.”

— Francis Collins, <b>director of The Human Genome Institute</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->The director of the Human Genome institute is a christian who eagerly laps up the ramblings of ignorant The Sauce? Great.
What a title for Sauce's book. Not at all predictable after his "What's so great about America"...

The same "What's so great about America" which contained that glorious puddle that was "Two Cheers for Colonialism: How the West Prevailed".

In case you haven't read that priceless rewrite of history, you should. Nauseatingly entertaining (keyword being nauseating), Saucy the "I wrote it, so can I please become white now" bootlicker shows exactly how woefully ignorant of history the average literate Indian christian is (the illiteratis hopefully aren't worse off...).

Found this: an American drooling happily all over The Sauce's dawaganda. He found an <i>Indian</i> thumbing-up colonialism - can there be anyone more reliable/believable to make that point than an Indian (or an African, I suppose)? Thanks to Saucy, past western 'mishaps' can from now on be described as more glories in the western crown!
The eager applaudist has ignored the fine print however, which states that Dinesh Saucepan is a christian. And as any non-European christian is <i>always</i> an individual conditioned to love his christian colonial masters, one can in fact expect no less from Sauce either. But that's a little detail this American conveniently overlooks when ecstaticly waving said Sauce's apologia for christian-colonial terrorism:
www.r21online.com/2002/06/two-cheers-for-colonialism.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Two cheers for colonialism</b>
A fascinating article by Dinesh D'Souza challenging many of our commonly held assumptions. I view it as essential reading and encourage readers to buy his latest book, "What's So Great About America." If you would like to meet Dinesh, RSVP for a reception for him starting at 6pm on July 16th at the Stanford Park Hotel. <b>Excerpt from the article:</b>
(Clever WASPies: first colonise countries and colonise the minds of the converted. Then, after christocolonialism is finally seen for what it is - that is, identified as christian terrorism - bring your native christian puppets out to exhonerate the colonial era! And feed their regurgitation back to the WASPies of the next generation, so these don't feel all downcast and bad about unimportant things like historical facts.
"It was for their own good". <- Hey, that's what them southern christians also said about the gawd-given institution of slavery. The christolies never change, nor does the christotune.
But Africans haven't birthed a christian turncoat that argued that slavery was good for them ... or at least, I haven't come across one. But we have The Sauce. And like a good christian, he's already written about how Slavery benefitted the Africans.)

My conclusion is that against their intentions the colonialists brought things to India that have immeasurably enriched the lives of the descendants of colonialism. It is doubtful that non-Western countries would have acquired these good things by themselves. It was the <b>British</b> who, applying a <b>universal notion of human rights</b>, in the early nineteenth century abolished the ancient Indian institution of sati-the custom of tossing widows on the funeral pyre of their dead husbands. There is no reason to believe that the Indians, who had practiced sati for centuries, would have reached such a conclusion on their own. Imagine an African or Indian king encountering the works of Locke or Madison and saying, "You know, I think those fellows have a good point. I should relinquish my power and let my people decide whether they want me or someone else to rule." Somehow, I don't see this as likely.
Colonialism was the transmission belt that brought to Asia, Africa, and South America the blessings of Western civilization. Many of those cultures continue to have serious problems of tyranny, tribal and religious conflict, poverty, and underdevelopment, but this is not due to an excess of Western influence but due to the fact that those countries are insufficiently Westernized. Sub-Saharan Africa, which is probably in the worst position, has been described by U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan as "a cocktail of disasters." But this is not because colonialism in Africa lasted so long but because it lasted a mere half-century. It was too short to permit Western institutions to take firm root. Consequently after their independence most African nations have retreated into a kind of tribal barbarism that can only be remedied with more Western influence, not less. Africa needs more Western capital, more technology, more rule-of-law, and more individual freedom.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh, Saucy, saucy. So many mistakes in a short paragraph.
What's wrong with the above?
(1) Sati - was voluntary self-immolation of women (=suicide).
Cf. Christianity's murder-by-burning of women for witchcraft right up to late 19th century in Ireland.
Also compare with western civilisation tradition of performing FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION on western women into the late 19th century.
Meanwhile, at about the same time, the christobrits allegedly "championed" women's rights in India and tried to ban Sati.

(2) Christocolonial British and "universal notion of human rights".
There is no "throw up" warning on that one.
Inducing famines that claimed 25 million Indians in 100 years, executions by shooting into crowds, destruction of indigenous schools to replace with British christolies/miseducation and destruction of Indian cotton industry (so British cotton industry could take off). Long list, stopping here.

(3) More christian lying from christoliar Dinesh The throw-it-out-it's-that-bad Sauce:
"Sub-Saharan Africa, which is probably in the worst position, has been described by U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan as "a cocktail of disasters." But this is not because colonialism in Africa lasted so long but because it lasted a mere half-century. It was too short to permit Western institutions to take firm root. Consequently after their independence most African nations have retreated into a kind of tribal barbarism that can only be remedied with more Western influence, not less."
Ooooh, yes. We know how Goan catholic fascist Dinesh avoids mentioning his catholic master christian tyrant king of Belgium terrorising the people of the Congo via his christocolonial officers:

http://freetruth.50webs.org/A4b.htm#Congo
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In August, 1885, King Leopold notified the signatories that his Association would henceforth be known as the "Congo Free State," and that he himself was monarch of the domain. The whole of the population of the area was thus handed over, and <b>the cruelty and heartless exploitation of the people almost passes belief.
A population of about two millions was converted by a stroke of the pen into a nation of slaves, under the control of officials whose brutalities beggar description.</b>
-- Christianity, Slavery and Labour, by Chapman Cohen (1931)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->The Sauce also writes in the sickening full version of his article (see bottom for link): "The West did not become rich and powerful through colonial oppression. "
Of course, the benign christotyrants in the Congo were really not looting:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Villages were raided, the natives seized, and released in order to collect the ivory and rubber. Nearly fourteen million pounds' worth of goods was forced from the natives in seven years. If the people refused or rebelled, or failed to bring in what was required, punishment--death or mutilation, or death and mutilation--followed.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The native troops employed proved their zeal in bringing back to their officers the severed hands of those who had been murdered--in one case 160 hands, in other cases fifty or eighty. <b>This, said our own Consul, was not the native custom; it was "the deliberate act of the soldiers of a European administration</b>...obeying the positive orders of their superiors." The photographs published in Mark Twain's book of the children so treated place the fact of the mutilations beyond doubt.
...
<b>Whole districts were depopulated. Of eight villages with a population of over 3,000, only ten persons were left. Of another district the population dropped in fifteen years from 50,000 to 5,000. The Bolangi tribe, formerly numbering 40,000 sank to 8,000.</b> King Leopold, it is calculated, netted a profit of between three and five millions sterling, and could call God to witness the purity of his motives and his desire to promote civilisation.

[...]
The Roman Catholic missionaries were altogether silent until 1903 - was not Leopold a devout Catholic? And when Mr. Morel visited the United States of America in 1904 to ventilate the Congo horror, he was bitterly opposed by Cardinal Gibbon, the leading Catholic ecclesiastic in the United States.
-- Christianity, Slavery and Labour, by Chapman Cohen (1931)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Guardian newspaper:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->King Leopold, who never set foot in the Congo, controlled the vast country as his personal colony from 1885 to 1908, when it was handed over to Belgian government rule.
During those decades his agents enslaved its people to harvest rubber, beating workers with a hippo-hide whip known as the chicotte and severing the hands of men, women and children who failed to meet their quotas.

<b>As many as 10 million Congolese are estimated to have died as a result of executions, unfamiliar diseases and hunger.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->So the results of colonial rule from 1885 to 1908: christians murdered 10 million Congolese while netting millions of pounds! I have seen the light! Christian civilisation is great. I bow down now. Everything I said was wrong, obviously. Dinesh The Saucepan has totally convinced me of the virtues of christocolonialism, with his indomitable way of 'viewing' history in the good-old christoislamicommunist fashion of lying and obscuring facts.

Oh wait, perhaps the Saucepan hasn't heard of actual non-fiction writers (as opposed to liars like himself), who write based on historical facts. Such as:
"Costly blessing - Christian mission and colonialism " (Teurer Segen - Christliche Mission und Kolonialismus) by Gert von Paczensky
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A4e.htm#MissionsColonialism
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Missions were in league with colonialism, often even gruesomely so. They helped to destroy old cultures, to uproot people, to divide families and entire populations. They supported and approved of a system that let countless of millions in three continents be reduced to poverty, bringing them hunger and sickness. In the misdevelopment of Latin America, Africa and Asia - the major problem in the present - missionaries and Churches of all persuasions and confessions (denominations) were complicit.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope Dinesh and likeminded may partake in the actual "joys" of being colonized - the same kind that he tried to overwrite with his christolies. Oh, he won't mind the experience. He's been singing its praises, after all. And though a little trepidatious initially of what may be in store for Dinesh if his wish comes true, I should learn not to mind either. He's so callous of so many (dead) people's real experiences that he doesn't give a hoot about negating them, so why should I care about him.


Links:
- chronicle.com/free/v48/i35/35b00701.htm - full version of Sauce's "Two cheers for colonialism". Have a bucket ready next to you. No warning is enough.
- That's just one chapter of his book "What's so great about America".
Look at the chapter titles here:
www.dineshdsouza.com/books/america-toc.html
- www.dineshdsouza.com/books/america-jacket.html
Where he writes this hilarity:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What are some of the alleged sins of America and the West?
Slavery? But the West is unique not in having slavery but <i>in abolishing it</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Ummm. Ancient Rome (=non-christian) nearly abolished it, but then came christianity and instituted it in full force.
India hadn't had it since an even longer time (that's assuming it ever had real slavery).
Meanwhile, the christos of America <i>tried their very best</i> to keep slavery for as long as they could. But Thomas Paine and others' ideas beat them.

Criticisms of Sauce's nonsense:
- chronicle.com/subscribe/login?url=/weekly/v48/i40/40b00402.htm
Someone who wrote back to chronicle about their previous publication with Saucepan's christo-apologetic lies
- asuph.wordpress.com/2004/10/21/four-cheers-for-the-colonialized/
- www.redcritique.org/MayJune02/TextandClass/dsouzaandthenarcosisofhistory.htm
(<i>Iranian</i> communists critiquing Sauce's garbage.)

If you wanted more proof as to why never to believe a word by christoliar The Sauce:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014860.php
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Dinesh D'Souza: "It’s foolish to blame Islam when Islam has been around for 1,300 years and Islamic terrorism has been a problem for the past 25 years"</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Another cigar for Dinesh. What an accomplishment. Liar is his middlename.
Robert Spencer at Jhadwatch gives a few pointers as to what's wrong with Sauce's insupportable claim. Not enough pointers, IMO.
And also:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/015537.php
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Dinesh D'Souza descends into the gutter<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

Chhattisgarh: Naxal-hit tribals take to Lord Ram <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And the Cong mouthpiece is all twisted in his thongs:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"The BJP and Sangh Parivar are destroying the rich tribal culture for their political and vested interests," fumed state Congress general secretary Ramesh Varlyani.
"The tribals have their own culture and deity; imposing new tradition is uncalled for," he added.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is he miffed that the tribals aren't offering prasads/flowers to idols of Gandhi clan? I don't get it? What indegious tribal tradition/deity/culture are being sacrificed here over Ram?

Note, in same Chhattisgarh, Cong is dragging it's feet on the anti-conversion bill. One can only guess why?
Anti-conversion Bill: C’garh Governor seeks Attorney Gen’s advice
from another site:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Gospel for Asia missionaries have been working in the state since 1995. During that time, they have planted several churches and started a Bible school to train new missionaries. The state also has an active film ministry and provides for the needs of families through several Bridge of Hope centers.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->