<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Church sponsored Prostitution-New way for Conversion!</b>
10/24/2007 4:27:12 AMÂ HK
Thiruvananthapuram: The raid in a Christian destitute home here reveals the new modus operandi of Church to promote Conversion.
The Missionary Charity home based Prostitution under the leadership of a 65 year old Nun-exposes the true colour of their Charity.
The institution ran by hugely funded foreign money and Grants from Government, were utilizing prostitutes for their evil aim of Conversion.
Lure the men by showcasing their commodities-Then accuse them as sinners-Then preach the way of Jesus as the only way to escape from their committed sin!
Government should probe the immoral activities going on in Church based destitute homes. Now a days it has become a fashion for Governmentâs Sishu Kshema Samithi to happily pick kids from the streets and pass it to such Notorious organizations.
This is not the first time Church based sex scandals are propping out. Reports on how Nuns and Kids from Charity homes were sold to foreign countries for menial jobs and flesh trades were in the Media few years back. More shocking revelations has come out after the death of Sister Abhaya and Muringoor Mafia Centre mass killing.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Nuns,Jesus and ISKCON
Courtesy: (Pseudo)Secularism Combat
<i>Dressed in their white gowns they came into the chapel with the Mother Superior and were about to undergo the ceremony to marry them to Jesus, making them brides of Christ
Just as the ceremony was to begin four Hasidic Jews with yarmulkes, long sideburns and long beards came in and sat in the front row.
The Mother Superior said to them, âI am honoured that you want to share this experience with us, but do you mind if I ask why you came?â
One of the Hasdic Jews replied âWeâre from the groomâs (Jesus) familyâ</i>
This makes us recall the case of nuns in a court in Warsaw, Poland against ISKCON. Noting that the ISKCON is spreading itâs activities and gaining followers in Poland , a nun filed a case before a Judicial Magistrate praying that ISKCON should be banned because itâs followers are glorifyingÂ a Character called Krishna âWho was loose in morals, having married 16,000 Gopikasâ.
When the case came up for hearing the ISKCON defendant requested the Judge toÂ ask the nun to repeat the oath she has taken when she has ordained as a nun. The Judge asked the Nun to recite the Oath loudly.She would not.
ISKCON man asked the Judge whether he could read it out for the nun. The Judge said go ahead. The pledge was to effect that âshe (nun) is married to Jesus Christâ .ISKCON man said âYour Lordship! Lord Krishna is alleged to have âmarriedâ 16,000women. There are more than a million nuns who assert that they are married to Jesus Christ. Between the two Krishna and the nun, who are loose charactersâ
The Judge dismissed the case and allowed ISKCON to go its way.Â Â Â
10-28-2007, 01:19 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-28-2007, 01:21 PM by Husky.)
Sankara, about your #182
Was there really ever a court-case by some Polish nun against ISKCON for such reasons:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->a nun filed a case before a Judicial Magistrate praying that ISKCON should be banned because itâs followers are glorifyingÂ a Character called Krishna âWho was loose in morals, having married 16,000 Gopikasâ.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Seems a bit too unbelievable IMO, although it is not beyond the realm of possibility I suppose. But the whole thing seems to be very much like a story (that is, it perfectly follows the formula beginning-middle-end/problem-climax-resolution).
I'm not doubting you or HK, but did HK do a doublecheck on this 'incident' they were given? There are no names and dates (nun, ISKCON person, judge - all nameless), no exact location.
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Oct 28 2007, 01:19 PM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Oct 28 2007, 01:19 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Sankara, about your #182
Was there really ever a court-case by some Polish nun against ISKCON for such reasons:
I have not been able to verify the veracity of the above alleged incident. But the particular story is found in several other websites. I simply chose HK as the secondary source to cite from, because I happened to find it posted there recently.
I do know though that many years ago, the ISKCON in Poland won a court case against the church for labelling them as a cult.
Whether or not this particular incident is true, it certainly makes a very humorous reading, aimed at the church's prejudiced views on other religions. The alleged retort of the devotee when dealing with the double-standards of the church and its flock of sheep is hilarious. If anyone else can find a source that can verify the authenticity of the story, perhaps they can post it here. Otherwise, one can only treat the 'incident' as a good joke.
The Xtian led and secular fundoo supported govt of India is promoting India Tourism by showing a picture of Krishna on a tree with naked gopis below. A friend of mine said that he had seen this pic at an Indian embassy, <!--emo&:furious--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/furious.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='furious.gif' /><!--endemo-->
10-31-2007, 10:13 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-31-2007, 10:15 PM by Shambhu.)
(Hypothetical) Interview with a Titus-worshipping "Father" who needs to convert because of the "White Man's Burden"
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hindu Genocide in Goa Inquisition
Â Â I stood beside him; on the torturing cross
Â Â No pain assailed his unterrestrial sense;
Â Â And yet he groaned. Indignantly I summed
Â Â The massacres and miseries which his name
Â Â Had sanctioned in my country, and I cried
Â Â "Go! Go!" in mockery.
-- Shelley's The Christ
Â Â * 1541: Francis Xavier landed in Goa - sent there by Ignatius Loyola of Jesuit order under the direction of the King JoÃ£o III of Portugal.
Â Â * 1545: Francis Xavier comes to the following conclusions that Hindus are an "unholy race" that they are "They are liars and cheats to the very backbone.". that'St'.Xavier who started this crime against humanity"the Indians being black themselves, consider their own color the best" and also that
Â Â Â Â Â "they believe that their gods are black. On this account the great majority of their idols are as black as black can be, and moreover are generally so rubbed over with oil as to smell detestably, and seem to be as dirty as they are ugly and horrible to look at."
Â Â Â He writes to Rome to install inquisition in Goa immediately.
Â Â * 1560: Viceroy's building modified to become the palace of inquisition with 200 cells with residence of the first inquisitor, house of secret, house of doctrine, any number of cells, and other special ones: of secret, of penitence; of perpetual confinement; of the tortures etc. Inquisition installed with powers higher than those of viceroys.
Â Â * Apr-2 1560: Viceroy D Constantine de Braganca orders that all Brahmins should be thrown out of Goa and other areas under Portuguese control.
Â Â * Feb-7 1575: Governor Antonio Morez Barreto,issues orders that the propeties of those Hindus whose "presence was prejudicial to Christianity" would be confiscated.
Â Â * 1585 : The Third Concilio Provincial adopts a resolution asking the king of Portugal to banish from Goa 'the Brahmins, physicians and other infidels' who the Church finds as an obstacle to convert the 'the heathens' to the 'only true faith'.
Â Â * Jan-31, 1620: Portuguese government orders that "...no Hindu, of whatever nationality or status he may be, can or shall perform marriages in this city of Goa, nor in the islands or adjacent territories of His Majesty..."
Â Â * 1625: Governor Francisco Barreto, issues orders that 'bar Hindus from seeking employment' in the Portuguese held Indian territory and Portuguese officials were ordered not to 'use the services of any infidel in matters of his office anyway'
Â Â Â Historian Alfredo DeMello describes the performers of Goan inquisition as
Â Â Â Â Â "nefarious, fiendish, lustful, corrupt religious orders which pounced on Goa for the purpose of destroying paganism and introducing the true religion of Christ"
Â Â Â The Goan inquisition is regarded by all contemporary portrayals as the most violent inquisition ever executed by the Portuguese Catholic Church. It lasted from 1560 to 1812 though in Europe it ended by 1774. (briefly restarted in 1778) Given below are some of the eye-witness accounts of this genocidal Holy office:
Â Â * Eye-witness accounts of Goan inquistion:
Â Â Â Â Â o
Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â "...The inquisition of Goa, distinguished itself on account of the greater rigors than those of the tribunals of the metropolis; thousands of victims died at the stake in flames.
Â Â Â Â Â Â -Joao Felix Pereira(19th century) in Historia de Portugal, 3rd edition, page 235
Â Â Â Â Â o
Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â "..The inquisition, this tribunal of fire, thrown on the surface of the globe for the scourge of humanity, this horrible institution, which will eternally cover with shame its authors, fixed its brutal domicile in the fertile plains of the Hindustan. On seeing the monster everyone fled and disappeared, Moguls, Arabs, Persians, Armenians, and Jews. The Indians even, more tolerant and pacific, were astounded to see the God of Christianism more cruel than that of Mohammed, deserted the territory of the Portuguese..."
Â Â Â Â Â Â -Memoirs of Judges MagalhÃ£es and Lousada: (Vol 2,Annaes MarÃtimos e Coloniais,page 59)
Â Â Â Â Â o
Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â "...The terrors inflicted on pregnant women made them abort....Neither the beauty or decorousness of the flower of youth, nor the old age, so worthy of compassion in a woman, exempted the weaker sex from the brutal ferocity of the supposed defenders of the religion..
Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â ..There were days when seven or eight were submitted to torture. These scenes were reserved for the inquisitors after dinner. It was a post-prandial entertainment. Many a time during those acts, the inquisitors compared notes in the appreciation of the beauty of the human form. While the unlucky damsel twisted in the intolerable pains of torture, or fainted in the intensity of the agony, one inquisitor applauded the angelic touches of her face, another the brightness of her eyes, another, the volluptuous contours of her breast, another the shape of her hands. In this conjuncture, men of blood transformed themselves into real artists !!
Â Â Â Â Â Â -Alexandre Herculano Famous writer of 19th century in his Fragment about the Inquisition
Â Â Â Mechanism of Inquisition as recorded by Dellon a French Roman Catholic - 'a very mild account of inquisition':
Â Â Â Â Â o The cells:
Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â a fetid cell, provided with a hole for relieving himself. But it overflowed, and there were faeces all over, an abominable smell, practically no light, save for slits on the wall, well above the reach of oneâs hands.
Â Â Â Â Â o No honour even in death:
Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Those who died in the jail were buried inside the building, and as they were going to be judged, the bodies were exhumed, and the bones were kept to be burnt on the next auto da fÃ©.
Â Â Â Â Â o Condemning the accused:
Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Seven witnesses were required to condemn a person. But the witnesses were never brought face to face with the hapless accused. The inquisition admitted the testimony of all kinds of people, even of those who were interested in the utter condemnation of the accused. Among the seven witnesses, was included the victim himself, who under torture had admitted the heresies that he had (not) committed.
Â Â Â Â Â o Tortures:
Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Three kinds of torture were practiced: 1) the rope or the pulley, 2) water and 3) fire. The torture by rope consisted of the arms being tied backwards and then raised by a pulley, leaving the victim hanging for some time, and then let the victim drop down to half a foot above the floor, then raised again. These continued up-and-down movement dislocated the joints and made the prisoner emit horrible cries of pain. This torture went on for an hour.
Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â The torture by water was as follows: the victim was made to lie across an iron bar, and was forced to imbibe water without stopping. The iron bar broke the vertebrae and caused horrible pains, whereas the water treatment provoked vomits and asphyxia. Thetorture by fire was definitely the worst: the victim was hung above a fire, which warmed the soles of the feet, and the jailers rubbed bacon and other combustible materials on the feet. The feet were burned until the victim confessed. These last two tortures lasted for about an hour, and sometimes more.The house of torments was a subterranean grotto, so that other might not hear the cries of the wretched. Many a time, the victims died under torture; their bodies were interred within the compound, and the bones were exhumed for the auto da fe, and burnt in public.
Â Â Â Â Â o Showing them mercy by burning at stake:
Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â By daylight, each convict was ordered to march alongside a godfather, one of the officials assigned to each victim. It was a great honor to be appointed godfather for these ceremonies. The procession was led through the long streets of the city,so that the multitudes could watch the ugly pageant. Finally, covered with shame and confusion, tired of the long march, the condemned reached the church of St. Francis, which was decked with great pomp and circumstance. The altar was covered with black cloth on which stood six silver candleholders. On both sides of the altar there were two kinds of thrones: the right side for the inquisitor and his councilors, and the left side for the viceroy and his court. The convicts and godfathers were seated on benches.
Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Next, four man-sized statues were brought, accompanied by four men who carried boxes full of bones of the victims who had died by tortures: these statues, wearing the Samarra and representing the dead victims would be tried too. Once the sermon was concluded, two officials went up to the pulpit to read publicly the proceedings of all the guilty, and to declare the sentences upon them.
Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â The condemned to be burnt at the stake were delivered to the secular arm, to which the Inquisition begged to use clemency and mercy with these wretched, and to impose the death penalty without effusion of blood - by burning them at stake!
Â Â Â Remarks of a historian:
Â Â Â Â Â The words Auto da fÃ© reverberated throughout Goa, reminiscent of the furies of Hell, which concept, incidentally does not exist in the Hindu pantheon. On April 1st 1650 for instance, four people were burnt to death, the next auto da fÃ© was on December 14, 1653, when 18 were put to the flames, accused of the crime of heresy. And from the 8th April 1666 until the end of 1679 - during which period Dellon was tried - there were eight autos da fÃ©, in which 1208 victims were sentenced. In November 22, 1711 another auto da fÃ© took place involving 41 persons. Another milestone was on December 20, 1736, when the Inquisition burnt an entire family of Raaim, Salcete, destroying their house, putting salt on their land, and placing a stone padrao, which still existed in the place (at least in 1866)
Â Â Â -Alfredo De Mello ('Memoirs of Goa' Chapter 21)
St Francis Xavierâs Love Quotes on Hindus
Francis Xavier is a Catholic Saint. He is considered an apostle of the East and is considered on of the greatest Roman Catholic missionary.
He love for Hindus was âboundlessâ Naturally, since Christianity is THE religion of
This messenger great follower of Jesus Christ was full of âpraiseâ for Hinduism. According to him, in Hinduism:
âAll the invocations of the pagans are hateful to God because all their gods are devils.â
There is no end to his love talk, the very essence of Christianity. He comes to this conclusion about Hindus:
âHindus are an âunholy raceâ that they are âThey are liars and cheats to the very backbone.â. thatâthe Indians being black themselves, consider their own color the bestâ and also that âthey believe that their gods are black. On this account the great majority of their idols are as black as black can be, and moreover are generally so rubbed over with oil as to smell detestably, and seem to be as dirty as they are ugly and horrible to look at.â
Thus speaketh St Francis, one of the greatest Christian missionary.
To show his enormous love and respect for Hinduism, our Love Christian saint ârequestedâ
that Inquisition be installed in Goa. It was a way of showing his love and gratitude to the Christian God Jesus.
âThe Goan inquisition is regarded by all contemporary portrayals as the most vicious and violent inquisition ever executed by the Portuguese Catholic Church.â
Historian Alfredo DeMello describes the performers of Goan inquisition as
ânefarious, fiendish, lustful, corrupt religious orders which pounced on Goa for the purpose of destroying paganism (ie Hinduism) and introducing the true religion of Christâ
Saint Francis Xavier, one of the Greatest Catholic saints is a glowing record of Christian charity and love and brotherhood.
1. Saint Francis Xavier, James Brodrick, S.J., (New York: Wicklow Press, 1952), p.135.
Hindu Genocide in Goan Inquisition
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Vatican tells Hindus forced conversions impossible</b>
ROME (Reuters) - The Vatican told Indians on Monday that it was impossible to forcibly convert anyone to another religion, amid accusations by Hindu activists that missionaries are pressuring poor Indians to adopt Christianity.
The appeal comes as relations between the two communities are strained by attacks on Christians by Hindu activists in India seeking to stamp out what they see as forced conversions.
"There can be no coercion in religion: no one can be forced to believe, neither can anyone who wishes to believe be prevented from doing so," Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, who heads the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, said in a message to Hindus for Diwali, the festival of lights.
He said the Catholic Church had been faithful to the teaching on freedom of belief.
Tauran urged both Hindus and Christians to focus on educating their communities, warning that the faithful could "so easily be misled by deceitful and false propaganda".
An Evangelical Rethink on Divorce?
By DAVID VAN BIEMA Tue Nov 6, 12:30 AM ET
On questions relating to the Bible's treatment of family and morals, one might expect assurance, if not rigidity, from Evangelical Christianity. So, it may surprise many to learn how "live" the topic of divorce remains in Evangelical circles. Last month, the cover story of the monthly Christianity Today was titled "When to Separate What God has Joined: A Closer Reading on the Bible on Divorce." The heated controversy provoked by the story showed how Biblically flexible some Evangelicals can be - especially when God's word seems at odds not just with modern American behavior, but also with simple human kindness.
As the article's author, the British Evangelical scholar David Instone-Brewer, points out, for most of 2,000 years Christians have viewed divorce through two scriptural citations. In Matthew, the pharisees ask Christ, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause?" Jesus refers to the Old Testament and then replies, "Whoever divorces a wife, except for sexual indecency, commits adultery." The apostle Paul adds in the book First Corinthians that a Christian is "not bound" to a non-Christian spouse who abandons him. Simple, right?
Instone-Brewer radically reinterprets the first passage using, of all things, quotation marks. The Greek of the New Testament didn't always contain them, and scholars agree that sometimes they must be added in to make sense of it. Instone-Brewer, an expert in Jewish thought during Jesus's era, writes that Christ's interlocutors were not asking him whether there was any cause at all for divorce, but whether he supported something called "any-cause" divorce, a term a little bit like "no-fault" that allowed husbands to divorce wives for any reason at all. Instone-Brewer claims Jesus's "no" was a response to this idea, and that his "except for sexual indecency" condition was not a statement of the sole exemption from God's blanket prohibition, but merely Christ's reiteration of one of several divorce permissions in the Old Testament - one he felt the "any-time" advocates had exaggerated. Finally, Instone-Brewer tallies four grounds for divorce he finds affirmed in both Old and New Testaments: adultery, emotional and sexual neglect, abandonment (by anyone) and abuse.
Christianity Today has written previously on divorce, often bemoaning how easy it is in today's America. However, the Instone-Brewer essay appeared to be its editors' attempt to offer Evangelicals an escape from a classic dilemma. The "plain sense" of Jesus's words without quotes seems clear enough, but also inhumane: how could a loving God forbid divorce, even by omission, in cases of wife-beating, or of abandonment by a Christian spouse?
Each branch of Christianity deals with divorce in its own way: Catholicism bans it entirely, but many divorced and remarried couples nonetheless find that their conscience permits them to take Communion. Liberal Protestantism accepted divorce some decades ago without much engagement of the scriptural issue. Evangelicals define themselves as being tightly bound by scripture. But besides the humanitarian problem, there are some uncomfortable facts on the ground: The divorce rate among Evangelicals, which first became news after polls released by the Barna Research Group in 2001, has been as high or higher than the national average.
The Evangelical movement has actually made tremendous accommodations given the strictures it lives under. Ministries for the newly divorced are common at megachurches; and on the historically less-rigid Pentecostal side of the spectrum, celebrity preachers Juanita Bynum and Paula White both recently announced their intention to divorce. Most experts interviewed for this story attested that whereas 30 years ago, a pastor might well order a battered woman home to return her husband, that is rare today.
More conservative Evangelicals remain uneasy about divorce. If a split itself is inescapable, notes Christianity Today editor Andy Crouch, "remarriage is where the rubber meets the road," and many remarried couples find themselves denied church membership. Says Russel Moore, dean of the 16.3 million-member Southern Baptist Convention's influential Southern Seminary, "We teach our future pastors that marriage is a lifelong, one-flesh union." Any woman in an abusive marriage should "leave that situation," he acknowledges, and a "majority" probably accept remarriage. Asked if he does, Moore demurred: "Let me think about that for a little bit. I could answer in a way that would be very easily misunderstood."
Evangelical conflict on the topic was obvious in reader response to the Instone Brewer essay. Initially the mail was heavily negative. The most stinging broadside sas a column by John Piper, a respected theological conservative, that called the essay not just weak but "tragic." The magazine's editor in chief, David Neff, felt the need to explain online that "Instone-Brewer's article did not... give people carte blanche on divorce." The mail eventually leveled off at 60% negative to 40% positive.
Still, the controversy suggests that even the country's most rule-bound Christians will search for a fresh understanding of scripture when it seems unjust to them. The implications? Flexibility on divorce may mean that evangelicals could also rethink their position on such things as gay marriage, as a generation of Christians far more accepting of homosexuality begins to move into power.</b> (The ever-active Barna folks have found that 57% of "born-again" Christians age 16-29 criticize their own church for being "anti-homosexual.") It could also give heart to a certain twice-divorced former New York mayor who is running for President and seeking the conservative vote. But that may be pushing things a bit.
<!--emo&:rocker--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rocker.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rocker.gif' /><!--endemo-->
NPR says the IRS is investigating six evangelical churches for tax fraud. One of the 6 is Benny Hinn's ministry...
âChristotsavaâ to begin tomorrow
Bangalore: The Catholic community of Karnataka will hold a three-day event called âChristotsava â the celebration of Christâ here from Thursday.
Archbishop Bernard Moras said at a press conference here on Tuesday that the programme was being organised by the Karnataka Region Catholic Bishopsâ Council to âmake the message of Jesus relevant to everyone as a lived and shared experience.â The work of charity done through hospitals, centres for cancer, leprosy and HIV/AIDs are all expressions of Christian faith, he said.About 1,200 people are expected to participate in the event from 11 dioceses in Karnataka, besides guests from other religious faiths.
The event will be inaugurated Archbishop Oswald Gracias from Mumbai at 9 a.m. on Thursday at Good Shepherd Convent Auditorium, Museum Road.
WHy they want to do during Diwali?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Overseas Church Leaders trying to Unite Naga Rebels </b>
Kohima, Nov. 7: The Church today pulled no punches in slamming the militant leadership for pushing Naga society to "chaos and destruction".
The general secretary of the Nagaland Baptist Churches Council, Rev. Zhabu Terhuja, said on the eve of yet another Church-initiated unity campaign that the least the militant leaders could do was act responsibly.
"Naga society is plunging evermore deeply into destructive divisions," Terhuja said.
<b>A group of Church leaders from the UK, who arrived here yesterday, is scheduled to hold parleys with the NSCN (Khaplang) in Mon tomorrow</b>. They will try to convince the militant group to bury the hatchet with its rival, the NSCN (Isak-Muivah).
A delegation from the Nagaland Baptist Church Council (NBCC) recently held discussions with the Khaplang group to prepare the ground for this meeting.
<b>A team from the North American Baptist Church, which had organised a peace meeting in Atlanta for the two NSCN factions in 1997, will also visit the state soon to try and reconcile the two groups and end the bloody factional feud they are engaged in.</b>
Expressing concern over the "denunciation and derogatory remarks" made by militant groups against some public leaders and over the spate of fratricidal killings, Terhuja said such action had caused "bitter frustration and vengeful hatred" among the people who were "caught in between".
The Church leader said "arbitrary elimination of lives" had made Naga society weaker. Under no circumstances, he added, should human life be arbitrary snapped.
Terhuja said the people expected "those conducting the Naga struggle" to be more responsible as their actions had often led to the loss of lives.
<b>The Church has long been engaged in a campaign to unite the warring Naga factions and is known for its bold and non-partisan stand. </b>
But Terhuja admitted that the Church had failed to meet the challenges and needs of Naga society.
"The Church must keep renewing its commitment to our society's aspiration to be a just and fair one," he said.
This indeed appears to be a postive development as all the rebles may ultimately come back to the mainstream.The Church obviously has a major role to play as Nagaland is a Catholic majority State.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ravish+Nov 10 2007, 10:51 AM-->QUOTE(Ravish @ Nov 10 2007, 10:51 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->This indeed appears to be a postive development as all the rebles may ultimately come back to the mainstream.The Church obviously has a major role to play as Nagaland is a Catholic majority State.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you living in fool's paradise?
Did you notice the text high lighted in <b>red</b>?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Are you living in fool's paradise? </b>
Did you notice the text high lighted in red? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now if Fiji Hindu comes to India to resolve issues in Hindu majority state , that will be labeled as Communal but if foreign Catholic Church gets involved it is secular not communal, neither interference in India's internal security. And MEA is in comatose state like always. They must be sending some delgate to receive them at airport.
Some Indians still believes or want white colonial rule in India. Any action by them will solve every problem in India, ofcourse they are better than brown. Like if Indians have to understand N-deal, they should listen to US Congress discussion.
11-10-2007, 12:07 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-10-2007, 12:20 PM by Husky.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Ravish+Nov 10 2007, 10:51 AM-->QUOTE(Ravish @ Nov 10 2007, 10:51 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Nagaland is a Catholic majority State.
[right][snapback]75124[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I thought it was a Baptist majority? They really seem to be the most 'famous' of all the christians in the region - though I have heard of major fallouts with the equally scary catholics there, and of violent intra-baptist subcult/subsect confrontations.
But if it's a catholic majority, why are the US Baptists gun-running there then (or the next best thing: funding it for their sheep)? And it was the New Zealand Baptist Church/Mission that made inroads into converting Nagaland wasn't it?
Answered all my own questions in the affirmative:
<b>Violence in Northeast India</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Offering a different perspective in an article written for Mainstream, commentator Kunal Ghosh states: \<b>"Baptist Christian terrorists are active in India\'s Northeast. They derive their financial support from the southern parts of the USA where the Baptist Church has a strong following. Funds are collected in the form of donations in various church establishments.</b> Some of this money is spent in true philanthropic work such as spreading education and health care.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->("education and health care" only in order to convert the people: "See this cake? You can have it if you accept that the non-existent jesus saved you from the non-existent Original Sin. If you don't want our cake but would rather bake your own somehow, well, then, we have no choice but to introduce you to the NLFT/NSCN/...")
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) was founded in December 1989. Since its inception the NLFT has been engaged in an armed struggle to carve out a separate Christian nation - Tripura. The backing of the Baptist church right from the beginning has enabled this organization to spread its base. Due to its terrorist activities, the organization was banned by the government in 1997 but it continued its operations from across the Bangladesh border.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>It is now apparent that the pattern of forced conversions at gunpoint are irrefutably linked to the Baptist Church in Tripura.</b> The NLFT is accused of forcing Tripura's indigenous tribes to become Christians and give up Hindu forms of worship in areas under their control. For decades Tripura's indigenous tribal population has been dragged out of their homes and forced to convert to Christianity under threat of violence. Whenever any of the tribals organize Hindu festivals or rituals, the terrorist groups attack to desecrate and kill the participants. There have been incidents of issuing a ban on the Hindu festivals of Durga Puja and Saraswati Puja. The NLFT manifesto says that they want to expand what they describe as the kingdom of God and Christ in Tripura. The hill tribe 'Jamatiya' worship their traditional god 'Gadiya', who is supposed to be an incarnation of Lord Shiva, in the month of March. The terrorists have issued an order that the 'Gadiya' be prayed on the Christmas day instead.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Baptist Church in Tripura was set up by missionaries from <b>New Zealand</b> 60 years ago. <b>It won only a few thousand converts until 1980 when a mass scale ethnic riot was engineered by the Church in which systematic ethnic cleansing of Hindu and Buddhist tribals was initiated. Thousands of women were raped and kidnapped and forced to convert to Christianity. The terrorists receive military aid from extremist Christian groups in Australia and New Zealand. They also have ongoing exchanges with Islamic terrorist and ISI</b> who push in arms from the Bangladeshi border.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->When the RSS and other Hindu organizations decided to help the Hindus under attack in Tripura by aiding them in reconversion, hundreds of the RSS volunteers were attacked, threatened and blackmailed. Several of them were murdered and a number of them were kidnapped and held hostage by the Christian terrorists. In August 2000, Swami Shantikali Maharaj, the famous Hindu sage known for his social services was killed by the terrorists. In December 2000, Lavkumar Jamatiya, the priest of the 'Jamatiya' tribe was killed, two Hindu temples and one Buddhist temple were destroyed and order was issued to end all non-Christian methods of praying. In the year 2001, there were 826 terrorist attacks in Tripura in which 405 persons were killed and 481 cases of kidnapping by the rebels.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Christian love is grand. It makes one all warm - probably due to the warmth of the blood of the inconvertibles spluttering onto them while draining the life away from the victims.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ravish+Nov 10 2007, 10:51 AM-->QUOTE(Ravish @ Nov 10 2007, 10:51 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->This indeed appears to be a postive development as all the rebles may ultimately come back to the mainstream.[right][snapback]75124[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->You are joking, right? About as positive a development as they made last time they landed in Nagaland when they turned a part of the population into zombies that killed the inconvertibles remaining amongst them (as emphasised in red above).
Wherever christianity arrives, it leaves death and destruction in its wake.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Baptist Church`s evangelical work in India is buying weapons for organized terrorism. In 1991 the 2.3 per cent Christians in Nagaland, Mizoram and Meghalaya is now at 90 per cent, 87 per cent and 70.3 respectively.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Ravish+Nov 10 2007, 10:51 AM-->QUOTE(Ravish @ Nov 10 2007, 10:51 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->This indeed appears to be a postive development as all the rebles may ultimately come back to the mainstream.The Church obviously has a major role to play as Nagaland is a Catholic majority State.
Is this what they're saying at BRF? The Church has simply come back to consolidate its power, that's all.
Striving Toward the Chinese Century
Dr. John K. Chang
World famous historian Arnold Toynbee said that the 21st century would be the Chinese century. That was not a prophecy, but a conclusion based on his life-long research of world history and cultural changes. At the time he said this, there seemed to be no supporting evidence, but recent developments indicate that these words of Toynbee will indeed become reality.
The Glorious Past
China was a strong country throughout history, calling itself the "Middle" Kingdom. From an economic point of view, China was the world's major economy during the Middle Ages. It is estimated that on the eve of the Industrial Revolution China's output reached as high as half of the world's total and its per capita income was the world's highest. As the Industrial Revolution brought prosperity to Britain and other European nations, China's portion of the world's production shrank. Still, China's output accounted for one third of the world's total.
During the time between the late Qing Dynasty and the beginning of the Republic, under the pressure of domestic problems and foreign conflicts, China went through a series of upheavals. Even so, by the eve of World War I, China's economic output was still 8% of the world's total.1 During the war-torn Republican period, the national economy was still able to maintain growth. Before the Sino-Japanese war, China's industry grew at an average annual rate of almost 10%. The success of the Northern Expedition brought China a period of stability; the decade of 1927 to 1936 saw the laying of China's national economic foundation.2
During these ten years of construction, the Chinese church had greater progress than previously. Church leaders launched a series of revivals echoing the national construction movement. One of these revival efforts was called the "Five Year Endeavor," short for the Five Year Evangelical Endeavor. This endeavor was a nation-wide spiritual revival effort with the purposes of rekindling the faith of the existing believers and doubling the number of believers during a five-year period, and was undertaken by a church that was expressing its ideal of saving the nation and its people.
During this period, the government had shown new vitality, and reforms in the areas of politics and economy were carried out. The Chinese church, realizing its influence and strength, felt responsible to assist the government and was eager to contribute. Its leaders hoped, through the "Five Year Endeavor," to touch the hearts of people, create a new morality in them, increase the number of moral citizens in the nation, and directly assist the government's construction programs.3
In the meantime, another type of revival phenomenon was emerging within the Chinese church. These revivals, occurring at different times and locations, were led by various individuals; there was no communication between revival groups, neither was there any careful planning. These phenomena are called "spontaneous" revivals. It is, without doubt, the work of the Holy Spirit that accomplished these. God raised up church leaders such as Andrew Gih, John Sung, Wang Mingdao, Timothy Dzao, Watchman Nee, Chia Yu-ming and Leland Wang. Though these leaders had different personalities and styles, they were all pure in faith and doctrine. Andrew Gih, John Sung and Wang Mingdao, especially, saw themselves as part of the big picture of the fate of the nation and devoted their hearts to evangelistic work as a way of fulfilling their duties to the nation. The devotional spirit of these forefathers sets an example for us today. Their contributions and achievements are a part of the glorious history of China and will have a deep impact on future generations.4
The Grand Future
China has had an admirable past and the 21st century will see an even greater future. It is predicted that the 21st century's biggest change will be the reshaping of the world economic order. During the past century, the world economy has been almost completely dominated by the more advanced European and American nations. It is predicted that in 25 years, the countries that, at present, have been left behind, will turn the tide. The major element for this economic reshaping is the rise of the Southeast Asian countries. The Four Little Asian Dragons that have maintained a high economic growth for the last 30 years are the strongest evidence of this trend. The Asian economic crisis, in my view, is a short-term setback in the long-term perspective. The rise of China, compared with these Four Little Asian Dragons, is truly like a giant dinosaur. During the past 10 to 20 years, China enjoyed an annual average economic growth rate of about 10%. According to the World Bank's estimate (using purchasing power to value production), China ranks number three among the 15 most powerful economies in the world, next only to the U.S. and Japan. By the year 2020, China will be the number one economy in the world, followed by the U.S. and Japan -with a large margin in between! If China maintains an annual growth rate of 6% - 7% (experience shows that this is a conservative estimate), average personal income in China will be $13,000; it is not surprising, then, that by 2150 China's per capita income could surpass that of the U.S. and Japan.5
The emergence of a middle class with strong buying power has been the major reason for the economic take-off of Southeast Asia. Consumers' needs range from cars and refrigerators to telephones. Consumption stimulates production, production increases income; therefore, a cycle of sustained economic growth and increased buying power exists. For example, Western aircraft manufacturers confirm that China is their biggest market. It is estimated that by the year 2000 there will be over 1000 aircraft per year sold to China. China's buying power is already enormous, while its potential buying power is beyond imagination. Another example is telephone service. China currently has 12 million lines, averaging one line per 100 persons, while in nearby Hong Kong the ratio is one for every two persons. This shows the amazing potential of the undeveloped market in China.
The economic power of the overseas Chinese is even more impressive. The overseas Chinese have been great contributors to today's economic growth in mainland China. It is estimated that 80% of the 40 billion dollars of annual foreign investment to China is overseas Chinese capital. It is no wonder then, that some people say China's economic development is a result of the 5% of Chinese who live overseas supporting the 95% who live in China.6 This overseas Chinese capital concentrates in Southeast Asian countries where it has a monopoly over local economies and where the majority of billionaires are of Chinese origin. Surveying the changing faces of the world economic powers, the Chinese economic rim is an unavoidable force. The World Bank estimates total production (using purchasing power to estimate production) of the "Chinese economic area" (including mainland China, Taiwan and Hong Kong) will catch up with or even surpass U.S. production by the year 2002,7 and, in the near future, Chinese economic power will replace the Japanese economic monopoly in Asia.8
The past fifty years also saw considerable progress by the Chinese church. Fifty years ago China had one to two million Christians. Today, there are various estimates of the current number of Christians: the conservative estimate suggests 20 to 30 million; it may be 60 million, and it is possible the number could even be higher. Based on the above estimates the average annual rate of increase has been close to 7% for the last 50 years although growth has not been steady during this period. If the rate of increase is maintained at 7%, 25 years later the total number of Chinese Christians might reach 300 to 400 million. This is not just dreaming or guessing, but rather a conclusion based on evidence. The number of Chinese Christians will then surpass the number of Christians in any other ethnic group and China will be the country with the greatest number of Christians. Today there are few ethnic Chinese missionaries, but, in the future, Chinese Christians may contribute the largest and strongest missionary force. Besides providing human resources, Chinese Christians may also be the major financial source for world evangelism due to China's economic prosperity, its number one economic power status and the growth of personal income and increase in the standard of living. Studying the overall trend of world history, we see that industrial development and economic growth have often been accompanied by church revival and the rise of Christian civilization. It is a historical fact that, whenever the number of Christians with a world vision has increased, worldwide evangelistic work has expanded and missionaries have been sent to foreign countries. This happened in 18th and 19th century Britain and Europe, and in 20th century U.S. and Canada. (Japan is not an example because of its recent and relatively brief rising and declining period. Japan's rise has been a phenomenon of the past 20 years only; it may fade in 20 years.) It should not come as a surprise that mainland China will take its turn in the 21st century. It will soon be a reality that China is the number one economic power with the world's biggest Christian population and the strongest mission resources. We should be looking forward to the coming of this great day and be encouraged to join in ministries to fulfill Christ's great commission.
Difficult Challenges Ahead
God is Lord of history. The development of world history is part of His plan. He is the King of kings, the Lord reigning over the fate of each nation. As Psalm 103:19 says, "The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." China's history, its fate and future are all in the hands of God. It is God's miraculous plan for China to become the number one economic power and have the biggest Christian population in the world. Someone put it humorously that "For God so loved the Chinese, He created a great many of them!" If you give further thought to this comment, you may see the deep spiritual meaning behind the humor. The deeds of the Lord of history are shown. In surveying trends in mainland China, not only should we have unshakable faith in the Lord of the history, but also the historical viewpoint to see the miraculous deeds of God.9
God has done miraculous things in mainland China, starting with Mao Zedong who tried to unify the language and eliminate cultural obstacles. Unexpectedly, Mao made straight the way for the wide dissemination of the Gospel. With the launching of economic reform, the religious policy of Deng Xiaoping's era benefited church growth. Some house church leaders believe that despite persecution, the church had been "free" enough to spread the Gospel. They believe it has been one of the most "ideal" environments because the church, after going through long trials, has grown through painful experiences; believers became enthusiastic for evangelism and carried the gospel to remote and rural areas. The church grew rapidly. If there had been no persecution, then there would not be this kind of harvest. However, if the persecution had been too severe, the Gospel would not have been spread and the church would have stopped growing. Some have said that God used Deng Xiaoping to accomplish revival in China.10
Another miracle has been the emergence of "Culture Christians." Chinese intellectuals have historically been against the Christian faith; the expressions of their opposition have ranged from rejection to all out attack. They even took action to eliminate any foreign religions. Since the 1980s, a group of researchers on Christianity has started to emerge from among mainland Chinese intellectuals. Among these scholars of Christianity, a large number are scholars of philosophy due to the fact that philosophy and religion have much in common in their research focus and analytical constructs. After years of research on Christian literature and theological works, and under the impact of Christian "spiritual civilization," some of these have expressed their desire to accept the Christian belief and have become Christians. They are called "Culture Christians."
We cannot be sure of the authenticity of the faith of this group of people. They tend to embrace the European theological ideas that have academic emphasis, which makes them dangerously vulnerable to being derailed from fundamental theological tracks. They may bring harmful influences to the church in the future. This is an undeniable, hidden problem; however, the positive influence of this group of people has been quite evident. Through years of research, the publications of the scholars in mainland China's cultural circles have corrected some mistakes on religious theory and destroyed the mistaken notion of "religion as the opiate of the people." This was a revolutionary and foundational theoretical change. It should be considered a significant contribution of the "Culture Christians."
Through translating and introducing Christian literature via the history and works of theology in the 20th century, the "Culture Christians" provided contemporary research materials on world religions and cultivated interest in, and favor for, Christianity among many scholars and intellectuals.11 We deeply believe God will use these cultural elite in harmoniously penetrating the Chinese culture with Christian truth to accomplish the Christianization of the Chinese culture and make a way for Christian truth to rebuild the political, social and economic foundations of the country.
It is also God's plan that the Chinese elite are found all over the world. Currently, there are about 600,000 Chinese scholars and students abroad, scattered in the U.S., Canada, Britain and the rest of Europe. About half of them are in the U.S. and are very open to the Gospel. Evidence shows that about 10% of them have accepted Christ as their Savior, and many of these believers, who have committed themselves to full-time ministry, are receiving training in theological seminaries. This is a late-twentieth century miracle. When these students return to China after their training, along with the elite in China, they will be a powerful army for the Christianization of 21st century China.
The "miracle" before us constitutes these difficult challenges: First, 21st century China will have the biggest Christian population in the world. At the same time, the Chinese still constitute the world's largest concentration of unevangelized people. Twenty-five or fifty years from now, their numbers will be amazingly large. The challenge is for the gospel to penetrate all of China.
Secondly, 21st century China will be the world's number one economic power, but today's China is still a society of distorted values that need to be straightened out. Individualism, pragmatism and utilitarianism are the mainstream of current Chinese society. People care only for their own interests and financial gain. They seek only material enjoyment and possessions; China has lost a clear sense of values. To look at China from a spiritual viewpoint, it is an empty and lost society. Yuan Zhiming, one of the writers of the popular Chinese television series River Elegy, said, "...if these problems remain undealt with, the Chinese will become a species of people with a distorted and horrifying face. The relationships between their people will be like those of wolves. Then, . . . the Chinese as an ethnic group will lose a real chance to rise among the world's peoples. What difference will it make even if China has half of the world's fortune? Everyone will have lost his consciousness and morality, living like a wolf, destroying and being destroyed by one another." China has experienced two "liberations" during the past 50 years. The communist Party overthrew the Nationalist Party and "liberated" China in 1949. The 40 years of planned economic development that followed in which they attempted to utilize resources and stimulate production and market distribution did not make the communist ideal a reality. Deng Xiaoping's policies of reform and liberalization constituted the "re-liberation,"-the liberation from the control of the communist system. Now, China has stepped into the post-communist era and, though the economy is growing and private enterprise and foreign investment are increasing dramatically, China still needs a real "liberation" to bring forth democracy and freedom, human rights and the restoration of human dignity. This is the challenge of the spiritual and moral restoration.12
Thirdly, the mainland Chinese Christians have gone through decades of trials; they are equipped with worthy spiritual traits and rich experience in personal evangelism. China is the world's biggest mission field, but, at the same time, its church probably represents a tremendous missionary reserve army. With the re-opening of China to the outside world, non-Chinese churches and agencies rushed into this Chinese mission field. Their lack of knowledge of the mainland church has often caused setbacks and difficulties in their work. The overseas Chinese church should understand clearly the strength and potential of the mainland church and view it as a partner in evangelism while, at the same time, it strengthens itself and prepares for effective cooperation.
Let's look back at history. During the 1911 revolution, the overseas Chinese made a great contribution. During the Sino-Japanese War, the Chinese government was running a constant deficit; overseas Chinese provided generous donations. Today, China's economic development owes a great deal to this investment from overseas Chinese. For the Gospel to be heard in every corner of China, overseas Chinese will also have to have appropriate involvement. Right now, professionals are able to work in the fields of education and health care while having a low profile witness. Overseas Christians need to have a comprehensive plan ready to put into action when the opportunity presents itself. Overseas Chinese mission agencies need to do long-term planning to train workers for China and to be prepared to shoulder the task of world evangelism. This is a challenge for overseas Chinese.
Finally, of the mainland Chinese scholars and students that are scattered all over the world, half are in the U.S. Former Time magazine Beijing bureau chief David Aikman said that reaching out to students from the People's Republic of China in the West is simply the most strategically important Christian missionary endeavor anywhere in the world.13 Christians in North America have a unique opportunity which we Chinese, especially, need to seize in order to see our blood brothers and sisters come to know Christ. When these students finish their studies and return to China, they will have extensive influence within the elite class and will be able to help the Christian faith take root and grow within the lives of Chinese people. This is a special challenge for Chinese believers in North America!
Dr. Philip Teng talked about xiangchou, a Chinese word which has no English equivalent, but which he described as "a kind of deep feeling, an intense sense of loneliness which reveals a root in our hearts. This root binds us tightly to the motherland. When that root is tugging at our heart strings, the result is xiangchou." So, within our hearts, there comes naturally a kind of "China call."14 May we be empowered by God through this "root" within us to effectively answer the above challenges.
1. The Economist, "A Survey of Global Economy," October 1, 1994.
2. John K. Chang, Industrial Development in Pre-Communist China, Aldine, Chicago, 1969.
3. Rong-Hong Lin, Too Highbrow to be Popular: Ze-Chen Chao's Biography and Theology, Hong Kong, China Graduate School of Theology, 1994, p. 161.
4. Rong-Hong Lin, Chinese Theology for Fifty Years, 1900-1949.
5. John K. Chang, "World Economic Perspective in the 21st Century," Proclaim, Nov/Dec, 1996, pp. 21, 22.
6. Sterling Seagrave, Lord of the Rim: The Invisible Empire of the Overseas Chinese, London, 1995.
7. The Economist, Ibid.
8. John Naisbitt, Megatrends Asia, London, 1995. 9. Philip Teng, "Christians' China Mission," Proclaim, May/June, 1997, p.19.
10. Alex Buchan, "Deng Xiaoping: An Instrument of Revival," Challenger, June/July, 1995, p.5.
11. Cun-Fu Chen & Zhi-Wei Xu, "The Reflection and Comprehension of Culture Christian Phenomenon," Regent Chinese Journal, Vol. IV, No. 1, 1996, pp. 21-22.
12. Zhi-Ming Yuan & Wan-Feng Su, "Spiritual Current: Discussion on Christian Faith and the Future of China," Overseas Campus, Vol. 5, No. 4, Aug. 1997, p.21.
13. Institute for Chinese Studies, Wheaton College, "China Facing the 21st Century," Conference, Washington D.C., Oct. 30, 1996.
14. Philip Teng, "Christians' China Mission," Proclaim, May/June, 1997.
Dr. John Chang, formerly with the Asian Development Bank, is Associate General Director of GO International, a Chinese missionary sending agency based in San Francisco. Translated from the Chinese by Ping Dong. Reprinted with permission from Hua Chuan Lu, a Chinese bimonthly of GO International.