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False Potrayal Of Hinduism/hindu Religion
#61
<!--QuoteBegin-Shambhu+Oct 7 2008, 02:42 PM-->QUOTE(Shambhu @ Oct 7 2008, 02:42 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Day by day, I am coming to the conclusion that "Hindu is the new Jew".

The islam/west wants what Hindus have. West hates us in, islam hates us.
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At least Jews have people of the book status. Hindus are just plain scum. No one will care if 100 million Hindus are massacred tomorrow. Yet Hindu morons will continue to blather about secularism and all such nonsense.
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#62
True... <!--emo&Sad--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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#63
<!--QuoteBegin-Shambhu+Oct 7 2008, 02:42 PM-->QUOTE(Shambhu @ Oct 7 2008, 02:42 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The islam/west wants what Hindus have. West hates us in, islam hates us.
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What is it that Hindus have? Legitimacy...
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#64
Legitimacy, at the most fundamental level, but that theycannot get no matter how much they try, IMO.

No, I was thinking of them having their eyes on Hindu wealth, just as the christobrits did...
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#65
<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Oct 7 2008, 08:01 PM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Oct 7 2008, 08:01 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->What is it that Hindus have?  Legitimacy...
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I do not know if I understood Dhu precisely. But, yes, Hindus are legitimate owners of their system, created from within and owned by the creators. But that is not the case with the Isaists and Mohammedans.
The enemies of the Hindus are aware of this and not happy about it. In fact perhaps even have an inferiority complex.
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#66
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The islam/west wants what Hindus have. West hates us in, islam hates us.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Christoislamism will destroy what will not submit. It's just the way it works. It's like a hostile program or malignant retrovirus. It's not us the *Hindoo* that it sees, it's us the *inconvertible*. The virus sees us quite impersonally, but to get rid of us, its zombies will make the matter personal by creating targeted hatespeech and psyops.
We only notice that christoislamism <i>hates</i> us in the extreme, when it starts its sporadic terrorisms against us. But in the occasional calm between sustained attacks (for example, post christoPortuguese terrorism, post christoBrit terrorism), we sleep and ignore how ancient tribe upon tribe in SE Asia and nations in Africa and communities in S America get wiped out (<i>still</i> ongoing). They have no media to even remotely make a plea in their favour. We're not the last and were never the first to be on the receiving end of christianism's love.


The only difference I can see between us and some African, American and other Asian communities, is that - like Greece and Rome - we're far more urbanised and more of an organised bulwark. A big, visible thing to topple.
To be able to get away with attacking us, christos have to make monsters out of Hindus - and of course hatespeech helps (just like the propaganda of persecution and immorality spun about ancient Romans and Greco-Romans). Hence you get crude stories like "those evil Hindoos - with their suttee and their 3000 year old Apartheid - DESERVE IT". And more complex psychobabbles/fables like Wendy Doniger et al's stuff (including that article or book on how "Hindu mothers don't love their children").

Nazis were able to legitimise the wholesale genocide of Jews for the German population through the christo mechanism of propaganda. That's what christianism *does*: it massacres outright those peoples and nations who won't be heard, and it uses propaganda to manufacture consent for censuring, then criminalising then rooting out nations on whom such direct methods won't work.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What is it that Hindus have? Legitimacy...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Dhu, can you elaborate on what you meant? Does that also mean "legitimacy" in the sense of legitimate traditions vs artificial terrorist memes that have no business in our world?

The thinking portion of the christo(-conditioned) west does want some aspects of what Hindu Dharma - and hence Hindus - have. For them to be able to claim these things, they first need to destroy the true owners or distance the true owners from their possessions by transfer of ownership (through various delegitimising mechanisms including rewriting history). The earlier, less-refined version of this process happened to the native Americans over land: it is their land, but now they're mostly murdered out and the remainder of their people dispossessed, ignored and expressly left to slowly wither away. And no one even talks about them anymore, they're treated as if they are some extinct species. They're not. Christowest merely made the remnant invisible and inaudible to the rest of the world as it continues to mop up the remaining blood pool in whatever way it can. In our day, it doesn't seem to matter for most people that for some tens of thousands of years native Americans had ownership of the Americas - the rightful owners. It's only in the last few centuries that the land has slowly become 'christoland' and now christosettlers talk about it as always having been their gawd's promised land for the chosen christo people. (Transfer of ownership narrative.)
The part that I don't get is that other people actually accept this christoclaim and go along with it. Whatever. The land will *always* belong to the native Americans. The christosettlers will always be thieves and murderers living on stolen land. The native Americans will always retain the right to take back what is theirs (if that may ever happen) without evoking a single murmur in protest from the world.


Christowest is trying to write their own sordid history of mass-murder and violent oppression onto Bharatam instead (it's what murderers do: framing others to distract onlookers from their own crimes). Making out that Hindus don't belong in their own land and inventing terms for different Hindu communities (de-hinduising them) and referring to some as the 'original' inhabitants and the rest as aliens. Then christowest starts inciting different groups to call for independence from and expulsion of other Hindu groups. To be able to do this, de-hinduisation is very important. Traditional/cultural continuity, if not broken, means Hindu communities will identify with other Hindu communities - it will be impossible in such a case to instill amnesia in them and get them to attack their own kind. Hence the incredible opposition in the christowest to Hindu charities that prevent such amnesia among Hindus.


- Christowest will keep playing mindgames with Bharatam (since in this century they can't quite as easily mow over a rather visible nation, like they did/still do in parts of Asia, the Americas, Africa - though christos do continue to massacre people in remote regions of the country like in the NE).
- And Hindus keep getting played.

A defensive war will get Hindus nowhere, except slowly backing us further and further into a corner (and the inevitable result that will follow from there).
If Hindus want to win, they have to (learn to) play this game far better than the terrorists and make them regret having ever started messing with us.
We have to absolutely win. Otherwise we lose.
If Hindus were to play their hand successfully, they will make the terrorists beat a retreat and - just as happened with Bharatam starting the domino of independence from colonialism - other peoples may well benefit and have renewed vigour to assert themselves.

This world belongs to natural traditions. There is NO ROOM for terrorist mindviruses. They don't belong. They should get lost, be removed. Co-existence with terrorist ideologies is impossible, because to destroy natural traditions is an inseparable, inextricable part of the genetic blueprint of the terrorist mindviruses - there is <i>no way</i> of separating the 'offending sequences' from its strands. In fact, the seek-and-destroy sequence is *all* there is to the mind-virus.
Free the world. The terrorist mind-viruses ought to be eradicated; liberate the mentally-imprisoned zombies so they can return to humanity.

Our (anti-)conversion/missionary slogan ought to be: revert the world (to the Old Traditions).

Until Hindus say this and act based on this, nothing will change. What kind of apologist for serial-genocide one would have to be <i>to be willing</i> to live alongside terrorisms that destroyed the Hellenes, Romans, Jews, Parshyas, Africans, native Americans, and a host of others (including huge numbers of our own ancestors) - terrorisms which persist/will ever persist with their primary intention of destroying what remains of us all. (And after the remaining heathens have been converted, the mindviruses will be back to identifying and burning the heretics among the zombies made. Same old story.)


<b>EDITED:</b> added explicit clarification in blue above (in case it wasn't obvious to anyone). Same old thing that's been repeated forever: destroy the terrorist memes, while liberating the possessed individuals so that they are no longer possessed.

Note that terrorist mindviruses are never people, just ideologies. Therefore, eradicating mindviruses means eradicating *ideologies*, so that this frees up the sheep/ummah for re-integration into life.
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#67
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->.. can you elaborate on what you meant? Does that also mean "legitimacy" in the sense of legitimate traditions vs artificial terrorist memes that have no business in our world?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Huksy, I was referring to the illegitimate traditions aspect and the land grab in the americas (manifest destiny, Lebensraum, Israel for the Christ Caesar). These fellows have mastered shameless behavior, blaming the victim while playing the victim, inducing cultural amnesia, cultural terrorism, identity theft, cultural genocide, enforced silence, and so on. Naipaul subsumed all these under the "neurosis of the converted" (also described as illegitimate or b@st@rd child syndrome.)

Following are the authors who can implode this fake western narrative:

Balagangadhara
Rajiv - Westernism/Neocolonialism
Atwill/Gmirkin/Wesselius
Lindtner/Thundy
McEvilley - Buddhist input into Greece (Therapeutae)
Sethna
Talageri-Frawley-Elst group
Oppenheimer
- and others

Each one of these is formidable; together, they can decimate the artificial monotheist/western paradigms beyond recognition. We need to pick a few non-neologism terms and repeat over and over again - monotheist cultural terrorism, monotheist colonialism, monotheist neo-colonialism, western neocolonialism. We need to seize postcolonial discourse and apply it to our situation - something which western liberal taquiyya (witzel, Doniger) has successfully forbidden for the Hindu viewpoint - Hindus are always "reactionary" "premodern" etc......

The question is how to quench the rage of the illegitimate child, the culturally dspossessed convert, who wishes to destroy all reminders of the Truth. The distinction must be made between the culturally dispossesed child and the cruel master (believer) directing and enjoying the tamasha.
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#68
Thanks for explaining.
<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Oct 9 2008, 05:48 AM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Oct 9 2008, 05:48 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The question is how to quench the rage of the illegitimate child, the culturally dspossessed convert, who wishes to destroy all reminders of the Truth.  The distinction must be made between the culturally dispossesed child and the cruel master (believer) directing and enjoying the tamasha.
[right][snapback]88958[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->The only distinction I see is that of time: the difference in time between when the west was converted to the cruelty that is christianism and when the Indian was converted. Once converted, they become the same, indistinguishable (see also African christians like in Uganda - scary doesn't begin to describe it. They *look* African but that's about it.) And the longer they have been christian (generation-wise), the more complete their transformation into zombiehood. See for instance the looney Luchio Maskarenhas whose Goan ancestors were forcibly christianised by the christoPortuguese. He's the kind that thinks the inquisition was a good thing and insists that Gomantak still belongs to christianism and the Portuguese, and a whole host of other faithful catholic stuff. At least he realised that Hindu cultural things are specifically Hindu and therefore calls the recent popes from Roncalli and onwards anti-christs or something for their inculturation/appropriation (this is because he thinks everything Hindu is 'demonic'). Other than his anti-inculturation stance, there's nothing positive to say about him or his sort.

I want the sheep/zombies liberated so they may return to humanity. But in their current state, they are dangerous and should be considered with extreme care.
<b>ADDED:</b> That is, you can't just walk up to people gripped by The Terrorism and tell them to relinquish it.
While their dawaganda is to lie about Natural Traditions, our side should respond by making it unavoidable for them to learn of the facts concerning their christoislamism, while we simultaneously set the record straight about Natural Traditions.


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The question is how to quench the rage of the illegitimate child<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Reversion to Dharma or some other Natural Tradition is the only solution. Nothing else will extinguish the rage - they're out for blood. Christianism compels them. It's been doing this for >1.5 millennia. It's futile to imagine (not you, but general case) that Hindus can change this track-record - that christianists will stop their terrorism 'soon' just for/because of us and suddenly take to Live And Let Live. It's not going to happen.


<b>EDITED:</b> to add the blue bit for clarification
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#69
The key to stopping conversions and reconverting the converted is

A. cultural empowerment (a fancy way of saying "let them know the truth"). Once people know the truth about Dharma and desert cults, they will not feel like converting.

B. breaking down the stranglehold of psec laws we have in india

C. economic upliftment of poor hindus, so that the missionaries' inducements lack teeth

The recent "no conversion or reconversion should take place thru force/allurements" resolution, if enforced, will do us immense good.
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#70
1. Yes to your A, B and C, but one suspects that the following can quickly become a knife that cuts only one way:
<!--QuoteBegin-Shambhu+Oct 10 2008, 07:05 PM-->QUOTE(Shambhu @ Oct 10 2008, 07:05 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The recent "no conversion or reconversion should take place thru force/allurements" resolution, if enforced, will do us immense good.[right][snapback]89025[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Christos will declare that reconversions to our Dharma are through force/allurements and that theirs are conversions achieved through people's own volition. You know pseculars, psecular media and NGOs.

The ban should be on conversions into terrorist ideologies. Reconversions to Dharma should be allowed and encouraged at all times - but not forcible stuff of course. Also, forced conversions to Dharmic traditions can't even work: christoislamism easily retains forced-converts through fear and lies, but Natural Traditions will be incapable of holding onto people who did not choose to be part of it.

Christos have made huge ground by converting at all those times when there was no ban on conversions and/or when they could get away with it without being caught. We need reconversions to undo the damage they've done at each stage. Else they will keep chipping away at our people each time the laws are on their side again.


2. Moved the following down here, since I'd hate to be misunderstood (how that could happen I don't know, but people have a tendency to jump to drastic conclusions unless things are made doubly explicit):

Clarification to #68 (in case it wasn't obvious what I meant) about the usual approach that can be taken to facilitate reversion:
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Oct 9 2008, 04:39 PM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Oct 9 2008, 04:39 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I want the sheep/zombies liberated so they may return to humanity. But in their current state, they are dangerous and should be considered with extreme care.[right][snapback]88978[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->That is, you can't just walk up to people gripped by The Terrorism and tell them to relinquish it.
While their dawaganda is to lie about Natural Traditions, our side should respond by making it unavoidable for them to learn of the facts concerning their christoislamism, while we simultaneously set the record straight about Natural Traditions.


Added extra clarification to #66 as well:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Same old thing that's been repeated forever: destroy the terrorist memes, while liberating the possessed individuals so they are no longer possessed.

Note that terrorist mindviruses are never people, just ideologies. Therefore, eradicating mindviruses means eradicating *ideologies*, so that this frees up the sheep/ummah for re-integration into *life*.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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#71
Re Reconversion:

Yes, it can be a knife that cuts both ways, but if we are smart and we can stop the conversions, since they occur totally out of force/allurement, and keep up the Dharmic reconversion work. Christos of course will want to say reconversions occur by force, but they will be hard pressed to provide proof. They will have to bribe people (which they will). But we can document christo conversion techniques much better than they can do any documenting on non-existent force use in reconversions.
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#72
[size="3"]Hinduism Gurus & Gladiators,



Kindly comment and enlighten on the following piece. [Image: detective.gif]

[url="http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-opinion/article2575288.ece"]The richness of the Ramayana, the poverty of a University[/url] : The Hindu, October 28, 2011



[/size]
[indent][size="3"]
Quote:[/size][size="3"][size="4"]‘Will they bash up universities in Jakarta and other places for teaching different versions of the Ramayana?' An interview with noted historian Romila Thapar.

[/size]
[Image: line-horizontal-black-fade.gif][/size]

[size="3"]

[/size]
[size="4"]The controversial decision earlier this month by the Academic Council of Delhi University to drop A.K. Ramanujan's celebrated essay on the Ramayana, Three Hundred Ramayanas: Five Examples and Three Thoughts on Translations from the B.A. History (Honours) course has evoked sharp protests from several historians and other scholars.



Coming three years after the Hindutva student body, the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP), vandalised DU's History department to protest against the teaching of this essay, the decision has been criticised as a surrender of academic freedom in the face of political pressure.



[/size]
[size="4"] Romila Thapar, the foremost authority on early Indian history, spoke to Priscilla Jebaraj about the decision, its adverse consequences for scholarship and knowledge, and the efforts by vested interests to project one version of Hindu cultural heritage and religious tradition over all others.[/size]

[size="3"]
[/size]


[indent]:: [size="3"]You have said that this issue is not purely about history and academia simply because it involves the Delhi University's History Department and Academic Council, but that there's a political background to it.[/size]



[/indent][size="3"]I think there's a political background to it because the initial attack against this essay [in 2008] was led by the ABVP which made sure that TV cameras had begun to roll when they carried out the attack, so that it would be properly recorded.[/size]



[size="3"]Their demand was that this hurt the sentiments of the Hindu community and therefore it should be withdrawn. This is hardly an academic demand. And quite clearly, the way in which the activity was organised, it was an act of political opposition to the History department and to this particular essay.[/size]



[size="3"]The University initially took an academic position and appointed a committee of four historians to assess whether this essay should be withdrawn. Three experts categorically said that under no circumstances should it be withdrawn. One of them, interestingly, did not say that it hurt the sentiments of the Hindu community, but said that it was inappropriate for undergraduate teaching, that undergraduates would not follow the whole question of variants and nuances and so on. So the expert opinion again did not think it was necessary to withdraw the essay.[/size]



[size="3"]In spite of this expert opinion, and perhaps because the matter came up in court, it was taken to the Academic Council. And from what I can gather, there was no indication given that this issue would be discussed, and therefore people went there unprepared and suddenly had to decide on this one way or the other. And what this initial action and the reaction of the University raise are the question whether courses and syllabi can be changed by groups beating up faculty and vandalising departments. And I think this is a very fundamental question which academia has to face and answer and take a position on.[/size]



[indent]:: [size="3"]Ramanujan discusses several versions, including the Valmiki Ramayana and the Kamba Ramayana, both of which seem to have problematic elements for Hindu fanatics. Which version are they supporting?[/size]



[/indent][size="3"]Well, I think that probably none of them has even read the whole of the Valmiki Ramayana ... Half of them haven't even heard of the Kamba Ramayana.[/size]



[size="3"]What are they supporting? Their notion from hearsay of what the Valmiki Ramayana perhaps expresses. And you know, one is angered by the fact that there are people who don't take the trouble to read and to study and to understand what the issue is before they just stand up and start shouting and screaming and wanting the dismissal of it.[/size]



[size="3"]What people don't recognise is that the story of Ram, what we call the Ram Katha, extends over a huge historical period. There's a distance of almost a thousand years between the first composition of the Valmiki Ramayana and Kamban's. There are also gradually regional studies... So, inevitably there will be variants. The moment somebody sets out to write a new version of the story, however dependent that person is may be on a particular version, there will be additions as indeed there were even to the original Ramayana. And this is the inevitable structure of an epic. [/size]



[size="3"]When an epic captures public attention, bits and pieces are always added on and bits and pieces are subtracted. It's a growing kind of rolling stone, gathering and dropping as it goes along.[/size]



[indent]:: [size="3"]So given that that is the structure of an epic, is there a danger in establishing a particular version in the minds of the mainstream as the definitive version? You once spoke of that danger regarding Doordarshan's Ramayana serial ...[/size]



[/indent][size="3"]Absolutely. You have to emphasise the fact that there were variants, or people tend to assume that there was only one version of the story or that that was the definitive version.[/size]



[size="3"]Now at the time when the Valmiki Ramayana was written, there were two other versions current, which were, in one case, entirely different, and in another case, very substantially different.[/size]



[size="3"]There were the Buddhist Jataka, the Dasarath Jataka as it is called, where Ram and Sita are brother and sister...and rule as consorts. Now this is very much within the Buddhist tradition of origin myths and is really making a statement about the superior status of Ram and Sita, which has been completely misinterpreted by the uneducated, who go around screaming and shouting at all of us who mention this version because it talks about Ram and Sita ruling as consorts.[/size]



[size="3"]The Jain variant, which Ramanujan also speaks of, is extremely interesting, because the author Vimalasuri, begins by saying that ‘The versions of the Ram Katha that you have heard so far are totally false and incorrect, written by foolish men. I will tell you the true story.' And he goes on to locate it in the court of the historical king Srinika...and says that it is nonsense to depict the rakshas as demons, that they were perfectly normal human beings. In other words, the version of Vimalasuri is trying to rationalise the fantasy of Valmiki and, therefore, it is fascinating to see the two versions together.[/size]



[indent]:: [size="3"]So how is it that the Valmiki Ramayana has become the mainstream of Hindu culture?[/size]



[/indent][size="3"]It comes partly out of the tradition of giving greater precedence to Sanskrit literature, because it was, in fact, the main cultural tradition over a long period, but it's also partly that this was reinforced by colonial scholarship mentioning these as definitive texts.[/size]



[indent]:: [size="3"]In the post-colonial era, as academia has been questioning that concept, has there been any similar move to change perceptions in the wider society?[/size]



[/indent][size="3"]No, there hasn't been and for this I blame particularly the visual media, because they have fostered the notion of there being definitive versions of every single major text in our cultural heritage and they have totally underplayed the fact that there have been variants.[/size]



[size="3"]But you see, it starts with academia. What is very disturbing in this whole story is that you have an Academic Council in one of the leading universities in this country, which debates the issue for over two hours and the vote is 90 against Ramanujan and 10 for. And one sits there and thinks, of the 90, how many actually took the trouble to read this essay when they were condemning it. [Many] people in the Academic Council had no idea of what the contents of this book were, except that they were going on hearsay once again.[/size]



[size="3"]Somebody gets up and condemns it, and then a group turns around and says, “Oh well, if that is the case, then, of course, we must condemn it.” So in a sense...what we lose out in this country is the habit of reading. We don't go back to reading texts. We either see them on television or we see them in Amar Chitra Katha .[/size]



[size="3"]...I don't know what the politics of the Vice-Chancellor of Delhi University may be or, for that matter, even the politics of the 90 members who voted to remove Ramanujan's essay. [/size]



[size="3"]But there is obviously a political element in this. There's a political element that [a] says this is what my party doesn't object to, and would quite like my supporting it, or [/size][size="3"]{b}[/size][size="3"] that this is really not my concern, it's a political issue, let the Academic Council take a decision, which is why I gather there were quite a few abstentions as well, or [/size][size="3"][c][/size][size="3"] don't take a positive role in this because tomorrow, you may be in the dock and no one will support you.[/size]



[size="3"]Maybe, the Academic Council should be reminded that every scholar is required to question existing knowledge because that is the only way in which knowledge grows.[/size]



[indent]:: [size="3"]The single expert on the committee who said it would not be appropriate for undergraduate education felt that the teacher would not be able to sufficiently explain the background. So at what point do we draw the line on when it would be appropriate?[/size]



[/indent][size="3"]Well, that's precisely my point. If you go on saying that the teacher can't explain it, why have you appointed that teacher? And why have you trained that teacher to be somebody who cannot explain a simple thing like the variants of a text?[/size]



[indent]:: [size="3"]Was it an issue for the Academic Council at all or should it have been left to the History Department alone?[/size]



[/indent][size="3"]It should have been left to the History department, but I guess the Academic Council got cold feet because it had gone to court.[/size]



[indent]:: [size="3"]It's been pointed out that Ramanujan himself is not a historian, but poet and folklorist. When it was suggested that instead they replace his essay with yours and R.S. Sharma's, it was pointed out that both of you are historians and that there was a value to having an interdisciplinary view.[/size]



[/indent][size="3"]This is a really very creative essay. We've all written on this subject,...but what was nice about Ramanujan's essay was that you got a different perspective on this, and that is what is so valuable for the student. In a course like that, where you're dealing broadly with culture, you need to have a different perspective every now and again.[/size]



[indent]:: [size="3"]So as a broader issue, isn't the interdisciplinary approach a good thing? Getting perspectives from those outside the field of History?[/size]



[/indent][size="3"]There's nothing to stop a Physics professor from reading that essay and asking questions or coming to different conclusions. But in the same way as a History professor would not intervene in the Physics syllabus, one doesn't expect the Physics professor to intervene in the History syllabus...[/size]



[size="3"]The interesting thing about this whole argument about interdisciplinarity is that the social sciences are always attacked. But the sciences are never attacked because people are scared of making a fool of themselves by saying that this is not something worthy of teaching. So nobody questions the sciences. But with the social sciences, the world and his wife are there to comment, in some cases, without any kind of background knowledge of the subject. There's a feeling that you don't need to be an expert; this is all common sense.[/size]



[indent]:: [size="3"]For many Indians, this is not just ancient mythology for an academic discussion, but also their own current religious beliefs. Do you think there needs to be any kind of leeway given because of that?[/size]



[/indent][size="3"]You're quite right that it's not just mythology but also religion, and it was made that. Let me just go back a little bit into history and say that initially, many scholars believe the Ramayana and the Mahabharata were just epic stories about heroes, and that's the way they continued to be for quite a while. And then they were converted into sacred literature, by making Ram and Krishna avatars of Vishnu. And there's a superb analysis of this by V.S. Sukthankar in Pune, who talked about the Bhrgu Brahmins converting these epics into Bhagwat literature, that is, converting the heroes into incarnations of Vishnu. And then it becomes sacred literature. Now today, yes, it's considered sacred literature, but that is really not its roots.[/size]



[size="3"]Secondly, even if it is sacred literature, it is based substantially on mythology. I mean, this is very different from Buddhism and Jainism, where the stories … there are mythologies, very many mythologies, but at the same time, there is the hard core of the historical evidence of a historical founder, and what that founder is supposed to have taught. This is a different story altogether.[/size]



[indent]:: [size="3"]It's again different from Islam or Christianity where you have the people of the Book, who believe that the Book is the truth. Most Hindus don't believe that.[/size]



[/indent][size="3"]No, and one of the crises in the colonial period was when they set up the law courts and they said, according to European law, you swear an oath on the Bible. So they went running around asking which is the sacred book of the Hindus. And so you got the Bhagvad Gita, you got the Ramayana, you got the Vedas, you got all kinds of answers, because there isn't a single sacred book, there's a multiplicity of sacred books. And there again, the question of variation comes in. Who accepts which book as the primary sacred book?[/size]



[indent]:: [size="3"]Are we seeing, over the last few decades, a change similar to that described by Sukthankar, of a group of people deliberately trying to create these definitive versions of Hindu sacred literature?[/size]



[/indent][size="3"]Yes, in fact there's this move to make Hindu belief and worship very much based on the idea of the sacred texts.[/size]



[indent]:: [size="3"]Ramanujan also discusses some international variants...[/size]



[/indent][size="3"]South East Asia, for example, where the Ramayana is an absolutely fundamental text of culture, but it's their own versions, not the Valmiki Ramayana. It is a fundamental part of the story in many versions in South East Asia, that Sita is the daughter of Ravan and Ravan doesn't know this, because she was secreted away. So what do you do? I mean, are these people going to go bash up the universities in Jakarta and all those places because they're teaching these versions?[/size]



[indent]:: [size="3"]And this in a time when we want to spread, and globalise Indian culture.[/size]



[/indent][size="3"]I find it ironic that you have this incident taking place in Delhi the same week as the Minister of HRD is sitting in the United States trying to persuade the top universities to set up campuses in India. Ramanujan was one of the most respected faculty members of the University of Chicago and the Ministry of HRD would give its left hand to have the University of Chicago set up campus in India. Now if Ramanujan had been alive and the University had a campus in Delhi, and this had happened, as is perfectly feasible, what would have been the reaction? The whole thing is bizarre.[/size][size="3"]
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#73
In a few words, in this piece the hack and aryanist Romila Thaparshe tries to appropriate the anti-colonial discourse away from the natives, she conflates colonial and monotheist problematizations of the epic with the native diversity of the epic (which was never a problem), she tries to insinuate that the Hindus are alienated from their traditions, and she fragments the narratives into parts for demeaning the coherence of the whole (e.g., isolated points about the birth of Sita in the Indonesian version).
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#74
[size="3"][font="Courier New"]^^

Thanks, dhu ji.



And please also comment on the ABVP's vandalisation of the DU's History department to protest against the teaching of Ramanujan's essay. What were the actual motivation factors, and how justified/unjustified were they?[/size][/font] [Image: detective.gif]
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#75
Gentlemen,

I believe I have found the source of our bad publicity.

The following excerpt comes from a Canadian website called [url="http://www.religioustolerance.org/paganism2.htm"]www.religioustolerance.org[/url]:



Quote:Third of seven definitions: Pagans are ancient polytheists:



The term "Pagan" is sometimes used to refer to ancient polytheistic religions. The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary defines "pagan" as: "belonging to a religion which worships many gods, especially one which existed before the main world religions." 1



The Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) contain many references to the societies surrounding the Israelites -- Babylonians, Canaanites, Philistines, etc. These are commonly referred to as Pagans:

There are allegations that these societies engaged in human sacrifices:

II Kings 3:26-27: "...the king of Moab...took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall."

Psalms 106:37-38: "Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood."



Later on, the Bible says that the Israelites committed genocide against the tribes who were engaging in these practices.

This is how the missionaries view us.

We need to tell every person living in India about this.
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#76
During the past few years, there has been an increase in the number of reports of human sacrifice in the Western media.

Here's [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8624269.stm"]one report[/url] from West Bengal on April 16, 2010.

Here's [url="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2084101/Lalita-Tati-murder-Indian-girl-7-liver-cut-sacrifice-pictured.html"]another report[/url] from a few days ago in Chattisgarh.



It looks like the West is planning something big in the near future for India.

We need to take action soon.



Guys, you better respond to my comment ASAP. <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/angry.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':angry:' /> <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/angry.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':angry:' /> <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/angry.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':angry:' />
  Reply
#77
Right now the Christian world view and western world view including the orientalism is being propagated for the last 100 years. This is losing ground and is weakening in the academic and intellectuals fields



These kind of news are used to propagate this orientilism



The Indian English news media is actually a secret media news of the western christian world view.

So such news of witches, human ogry storoes are used.

It is also used for propoganda and also for social engineering
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