I completely agree that anger needs to be focussed to derive results instead of haphazard radiation which helps none and is detrimental to us in long run. I am sometimes at a complete loss of ideas and have no clue where to focus my anger and frustration. I was suggested by a great man to adopt a temple in the outskirts/slums where there are more chances of EJ's laying their dirty hand and develop/help/educate the community. When I started collecting funds for the cause from my relatives/friends/neighbors the amount I collected was minuscule. People contribute sums of 10 or 20 even after me shouting for an hour. There is absolutely no awareness. I cant match the free flowing dollars which EJ's get anytime soon.
May be We need a bigger stage to collect funds to build temples and revolutionalize the society which has been dormant for quiet a while. The moment we put up a stage like that it will surely be labeled a Hindu terror funding outfit with links to RSS and other groups.It has happened before. So, How exactly do we build a stage from scratch which can withstand such onslaught from undoubtedly rich and powerful group.
We need a strategy to deal with both the government which may not be on our side and also to raise awareness in the society without getting shot down before we even take off.
PS: There are around 3000+ temples which needs urgent attention and which can change the tide of "battle" if you may say so. USD 300 m (INR 50 lakhs for each temple approx for reconstruction and arranging for free meal for devotees for 5 years,if managed well!) would be sufficient to change the entire scenario in our favor. Cant we manage 300 million dollars?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->PS: There are around 3000+ temples which needs urgent attention and which can change the tide of "battle" if you may say so. USD 300 m (INR 50 lakhs for each temple approx for reconstruction and arranging for free meal for devotees for 5 years,if managed well!) would be sufficient to change the entire scenario in our favor. Cant we manage 300 million dollars? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Contact G. Subramaniam who is IF and BR member. Very successful in making difference. What you are suggesting they are already doing. Funding is important as little as $20 makes a difference.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+-->QUOTE(Mudy)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Contact G. Subramaniam who is IF and BR member. Very successful in making difference. What you are suggesting they are already doing. Funding is important as little as $20 makes a difference.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree that anger needs to be focussed to derive results instead of haphazard radiation which helps none and is detrimental to us in long run. I am sometimes at a complete loss of ideas and have no clue where to focus my anger and frustration. I was suggested by a great man to adopt a temple in the outskirts/slums where there are more chances of EJ's laying their dirty hand and develop/help/educate the community. When I started collecting funds for the cause from my relatives/friends/neighbors the amount I collected was minuscule. People contribute sums of 10 or 20 even after me shouting for an hour. There is absolutely no awareness. I cant match the free flowing dollars which EJ's get anytime soon.
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Relax yourself on this front. Hinduism has a killer answer that may not be apparent to us - but is all too clear to people on the ground whohave no means to build a big temple.
One god (note lowercase letter "g" - yeah it IS a big deal) hangs about in one place. He needs one big Church/cathedral/Kaaba
When you have Gods popping out wherever you need him or her, temples crop up anywhere and everywhere. Look at any Peepul tree, any Anthill/Cobra den, any cow, any rock, You find people have anointed these with vermilion, have lit a lamp, an agarbathi and they pray there. Temples are everywhere, because God is everywhere - not under house arrest like Xerox Khan.
<!--QuoteBegin-Vishwamitra+Apr 14 2007, 02:10 PM-->QUOTE(Vishwamitra @ Apr 14 2007, 02:10 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->May be We need a bigger stage to collect funds to build temples and revolutionalize the society which has been dormant for quiet a while. The moment we put up a stage like that it will surely be labeled a Hindu terror funding outfit with links to RSS and other groups.It has happened before. So, How exactly do we build a stage from scratch which can withstand such onslaught from undoubtedly rich and powerful group.
We need a strategy to deal with both the government which may not be on our side and also to raise awareness in the society without getting shot down before we even take off.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To each his own on, how to contribute their efforts. But please remember one thing, do not believe in this non sense of links to RSS - as a terror outfit. For every Idiot in the RSS there are 10,000, who actively contribute and do something for Hindu society and the nation, not behind a desk but on the ground.
Stop worrying about what will others say. Bus, Aap apna Karma karte jayo.
No absolute need for starting something from scratch...guess, who is one of the biggest care takers of temples and seeks to get some level of coordination among the various panths and gurus in India. It is the VHP. Go beyond the cliche of the Ram Jamnabhoomi movement on what they really do and a true Hindu will start appreciating their effort. Also, the VHP is in the forefront in fighting the EJ's on the ground.
I personally have to relation or interests with the Sangh but, wish I did.
The 'you farted...' method needs a lot more practice before it can be used on seasoned rhetoricians. The ideal method is to make a point as a dispassionate third party while making any kind of wild accusations but not addressing them to the person you are accusing.
When sajan (sorry for the OT for IF folks, pl. bear with me) started his jihad against hindus and upper castes, I challenged him asking him why he hates Hindus and upper castes. In retrospect it was a wrong tactic. The right thing would have been to mention sajan's hatred en passant while addressing my reply to Shiv or anybody else. This would have put the onus on sajan to either challenge my assertion or to let it stand.
Another thing that has been bothering me is this - somebody posted a link depicting the images of Hindu deities on underwear. Should it bother me? Hindu philosophy says that God is omnipresent. So he is there in the underwear too. Then philosophically it should not be an insult but actually we should use our philosophy to claim that now the wearer of those undies has actually become a Hindu or something equally egregious.
It is quite possible that the underwear was made with an explicit or implicit motive of insulting Hindus or Hindu Dharma. Thankfully the power of our philosophy is such that we can turn that into triumph. At the same time, because of our 'secular' nature we cannot return the favor.
BTW Shaurya, sengot(t)uvel seems to be not very uncommon South Indian name.
<!--QuoteBegin-Shaurya+-->QUOTE(Shaurya)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Stop worrying about what will others say. Bus, Aap apna Karma karte jayo.
No absolute need for starting something from scratch...guess, who is one of the biggest care takers of temples and seeks to get some level of coordination among the various panths and gurus in India. It is the VHP.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mein apna kaam jaroor karoonga lekin kuch log hain jo karne nahee detey.
This is where Shiv's uvacha "Set aside anger. Just do your duty. Without anger." comes in. But, I am 23 years old and its difficult for me follow it. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I have great respect for VHP. But I am afraid to say that they lack in certain areas especially in appeasing the tribals/low castes in remote areas/villages where EJ's target most. I gather, they are changing now for better after seeing the conversions *boom*.
Besides, they have a very notorious image globally which doesnt help if you want huge funds. I am guessing,they can easily manage the temple administration but are incapable of attracting huge money if you want an upliftment of entire segment of people.
<!--QuoteBegin-Abhijit+Apr 15 2007, 12:26 AM-->QUOTE(Abhijit @ Apr 15 2007, 12:26 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The 'you farted...' method needs a lot more practice before it can be used on seasoned rhetoricians. The ideal method is to make a point as a dispassionate third party while making any kind of wild accusations but not addressing them to the person you are accusing.
When sajan (sorry for the OT for IF folks, pl. bear with me) started his jihad against hindus and upper castes, I challenged him asking him why he hates Hindus and upper castes. In retrospect it was a wrong tactic. The right thing would have been to mention sajan's hatred en passant while addressing my reply to Shiv or anybody else. This would have put the onus on sajan to either challenge my assertion or to let it stand.
Thankfully the power of our philosophy is such that we can turn that into triumph. <b>At the same time, because of our 'secular' nature we cannot return the favor</b>.
BTW Shaurya, sengot(t)uvel seems to be not very uncommon South Indian name.
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Abhijit,
It maybe a sound tactics to hit below the belt sometimes. Let EJ's/Islamists defend their nonsense superstitions. What will follow? Withdrawal from debate and extra legal measures (like thread ban on BRF).
We might take into account the fact that every fora is not up for grabs by p-secs, EJ's and Islamists. If hitting below the belt makes them run away with their tails between their legs, lets it be so. And I'd certainly like hundreds of Hindu lurkers, passive members to watch the spectacle, if at least such scene helps my fellow Hindus get rid of their inferiority complex drilled in by nonsense history books and a biased media.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Apr 14 2007, 11:46 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Apr 14 2007, 11:46 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->PS: There are around 3000+ temples which needs urgent attention and which can change the tide of "battle" if you may say so. USD 300 m (INR 50 lakhs for each temple approx for reconstruction and arranging for free meal for devotees for 5 years,if managed well!) would be sufficient to change the entire scenario in our favor. Cant we manage 300 million dollars? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Contact G. Subramaniam who is IF and BR member. Very successful in making difference. What you are suggesting they are already doing. Funding is important as little as $20 makes a difference.
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OK, here goes
In the Chennai area +/- 100 km,
One of my acquaintances run a very successful anti-EJ campaign
What makes an EJ successful
It is not Xtian services and poverty of hindus
During british rule, hindus were a lot poorer and conversions were a lot smaller
Next time any of you go to Tirupati, you can see various lines for darshan
Each line has a different price
We richer people pay Rs.2000 and get a quick darshan
On the other hand, you can see the free darshan lines where people wait for days for a darshan. These people will never convert, no matter how much bribes is offered
The key then is to increase hindu devotion
In the south Indian context, it means, temple and idol worship
This group does small temple renovation
Each temple renovation costs $500 or Rs,25000
One successful temple renovation immunises against EJs for about a 5Km radius
As part of the renovation, we insist that the local people do some kar seva
We also insist that Harijans are involved
We also insist that women are involved, since they are a lot more religious
This team is run by SV.Badri ( former VP of Pharmacy company )
and Ramamurthi ( former Navy officer )
They can be contacted through Radha Rajan who runs Vigilonline.com
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I guess, experts can expound on the concept more.
A few things need to be answered for a Hindu narrative to come out.
- An understanding of the theological conflicts between Hinduism and the monotheistic faiths
- An accurate understanding as to why, Hinduism failed to resist the onslaught of the monotheistic faiths
- The consititutional, social and political impediments to the evolution of the Hindu faith, as a way of life in the contemporary context
- What needs to be done for a course correction
- What are the eventual goals of the Hindu narrative in the social and political and geo-political context
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would add another component (if it was not implied in the above items): Hindus' self definition, awareness and understanding (Different from who is a hindu, open ended and inconsequential question). The answer to this has been imposed and dictated by outside that have had theological and ideological underpinnings in casting a stereotype. Well meaning hindus and social reformers too have internalized such orientalist/missionary/etc narratives and created highly idealized "concept" of Hinduism to dispute the negative portrayals. In this idealized and highly romantic hinduism, everything else one sees in daily lives of ordinary hindus (including images, temple worships etc) was degenerate and superstitious. The narrative being talked about here, should also address that and in that I see "conflicting" piece of it. It is ok, if this narrative does not construct a convenient, homogenized, acceptable to 'others" story. Our purpose is different, as shaurya and shiv have put across quite cogently.
<!--QuoteBegin-sengotuvel+-->QUOTE(sengotuvel)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Temples are everywhere, because God is everywhere - not under house arrest like Xerox Khan.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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Shiv/sengotuvel,
Only temples wont help. Lot of social upliftment needs to be done. temples under a tree and cobra den can promote "bhakti" but to draw people away from EJ's needs special effort.
"Inside" Bhadrachalam Ram temple in Andhra Pradesh, there were posters of christian missionaries offering free food for children. Poor children were asked to recite "yesunama" a hundred times before touching food. The land of Bhadrachalam Ram temple is being used for EJ activities.
This is why we need a stage to perform on a large scale with plenty of backup and support. This sort of blatant provocation needs a response.
Good to see that you are also here on IF.
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Thanks, I do post here now and then.
What was your BR handle? Hmm...its good to be with familiar folks here <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
On the topic: GS's method of renovating temples is a very potent idea. A good place to spread awareness about community related issues, good place to introduce the kids to the intricacies of Sanatana Dharma, etc.
Beside renovating temples, the caretakers and priests need to be taken into confidence to make them aware of the important role that they have in this age. The role of temples to should expand. Attached dorms a.ka. dharmashalas, libraries etc., seen that in Kali bari i.e. Bengali Kali Temple, usually maintained by Ram Krishna Mission. These institutions have had a major contribution in keping the centres of faith alive in communist Bengal in last 30 years.
Temples must become the centre of community life as they were in the past.
Good to see that you are also here on IF.
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Thanks, I do post here now and then.
What was your BR handle? Hmm...its good to be with familiar folks here <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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Hi SRoy, though I had been reading BR regularly from the last 10 years, never really got down to registering on that site. When I was about to finally register on BR becoz wanted to contribute to the 'Religion thread', it was suddenly removed by some admins. As the topic was moved to IF, so joined IF.
Mudy, please could you send me contact details of G. Subramaniam so that me and my friends could also send funds to such Hindu organisations. Many Thanks.
G. Subramaniam
I have visited Vigilonline.com. Could you post some details regarding how you contribute to renovation of old dilapidated temples if at all.
Thanks in advance
Vishwamitra
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Temples must become the centre of community life as they were in the past. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They can or they are already doing, only people don't see or if they see they reject upfront. Let me start.
Shishu Schools started by RSS, still very good schools in poor rural or urban area. But they are targeted by EJ, current Indian government and Commies. Media who are cohort with anti-Hindu brigade are doing rest of work.
DAV Schools and College started and run by Arya Samaj, They are again target by commies and state government because they perform Havan and vedic chanting in schools, now a dayâs commies and current government are working to derecognize them. Commie Agnivesh with EJ and current government support forcefully took over World Arya Samaj body.
Ramdas Schools and College started by Arya Samaj followers, again targeted by EJ in Punjab
Ekal Vidyalaya started by VHP/RSS, current government stopped funding and openly targeted by EJ and Commies.
There are other examples
Why this is happening? Because Hindus label them RSS or Arya Samaj or VHP schools and college, they call them fundamentalist etc. These colleges are run by funds from temples or donors. Any good efforts by any Hindu organisation never get appreciation only get condemnation. People just complain temples or Hindu religious places are not contributing.
We should appreciate good works of every Hindu organization and help them to do more.
In last one month, my extended family had organized two open Kitchens by their own money. Open Kitchen or âBhandaraâ, anyone can have meal; it starts at 11 am and last till 4pm. mainly done at temple premises. Some times they combine with medical camp or free books/copies distribution to poor kids. This type of charity work is very common in Punjab and Himachal Pradesh. Lot of people does it and sometimes one have to make months in advance to book Temple premises.
These efforts are for local area, we don't hear in media. But any tiny effort by EJ gets 24 hour coverage.
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+Apr 15 2007, 12:44 AM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Apr 15 2007, 12:44 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->This team is run by SV.Badri ( former VP of Pharmacy company )
and Ramamurthi ( former Navy officer )
They can be contacted through Radha Rajan who runs Vigilonline.com
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Communal Relations - Conflicting Narratives. I am sure many here can post some very interesting tit bits about Hindu philosophy and many would like reading them as such, including myself. But that does disrupt the flow of the thread. A request to make those posts, in the appropriate threads on the forum. Unlike BRF, those threads, exist here.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forgive me, but I am still standing at the station - trying to figure out what "Hindu Narrative" means.
Is it mothers all over the universe telling their brats;
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Ramayan patha ... phir pooccha: "Seeth ko Rama kaun thi? <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or is it someone explaining:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> V R like that onlee! <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
04-15-2007, 05:46 AM (This post was last modified: 04-15-2007, 05:49 AM by narayanan.)
Ah! I see.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Each line has a different price
We richer people pay Rs.2000 and get a quick darshan
On the other hand, you can see the free darshan lines where people wait for days for a darshan. These people will never convert, no matter how much bribes is offered<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please don't think I am attacking the dear postor who posted that truth.
But is it permissible to include in the "Narrative" a question:
Do we rich people ever consider that no Almighty worthy of that name, would ever be impressed by someone paying a Rs. 2000 bribe to the temple money-collectors, to save time in making the "darshan"?
Once I was snuck inside the Guruvayoor temple, skipping maybe half an hour of queue, by some friend of my relative who had accompanied us. On compassionate grounds, no bribe, reasoning that "US-retarned" wimps would probably faint if they had to stand on their own feet for a few minutes.
Took me a year to get over the shame of that line-jumping. Long training should have automatically made me refuse the special consideration, very firmly and with no "ifs" and "buts". But the moment for that came and went, and I just "acquiesed".
I trust that dear G.Appan is merciful and understanding enough to forgive me for that.
The best thing about Shri Yesu Christu's legend is the part where Yeshu goes in and smashes the Moneylenders' desks and Hundis, and driving them out of the Temple that had been completely infested by them. As I understand, this was the "crime" for which he was executed by torture.
An example to be proud of. I confidently submit that the incarnations of the Almighty that we worship, would all have emphathized with Yesu, and joined him gleefully in kicking the musharrafs of the money-lenders and the money-collectors at all the temples.
And yet.... at every major temple today... <!--emo&:thumbdown--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Took me a year to get over the shame of that line-jumping. I trust that dear G.Appan is merciful and understanding enough to forgive me for that.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was your punshment.
One should visit temple as a zero. No ego, No money power or No muscle power. Forget about everything.
Why in South they have different rates for visiting temple?
Why they have to charge?
Not seen in North India (Punjab, HP, Utranchal, Delhi, Haryana, Kashmir and Jammu)
In Mathura, Hare Rama Hare Krishana, Birla and Jain temple or temple run by management are better in service, cleaniness, no one chase for money or so-called parchi. Temples run by Pandas will chase you for parchi, ignore you etc, they think bribe may work in temple.
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